(Single Card Discussion) Key to GAT in the 5th Dawn? Maybe.

[DavidHernandez]

I've been looking at AK again, and even though I don't like it in a Hulk matchup it seems to me that I am seeing less Hulk. AK is an option for me in my area.

Outside of AK, I still like TFK. I've been tinkering with my build, and here is what I have right now:

GAT 04 Dave version X

4 Quirion Dryad
2 Psychatog

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 MIND TWIST
1 SKELETAL SCRYING

1 Pernicious Deed

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Mana Drain
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Misdirection
2 Cunning Wish
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk

4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus

Side:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Damping Matrix
2 Propaganda
1 Berserk
1 Naturalize
1 Coffin Purge
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Stifle
1 Fire/Ice

If I were to run AK, I would replace the 3 TFK's and the Skeletal Scrying with them. If I were going to run Fastbond, I would replace the Mind Twist with it. Regarding TFK's, another thing i like about them is that they cost 3 mana. This reduces the chance that a Chalice for 2 will shut me down. Having a single Scrying in the deck also helps get around Chalice (for whatever number).

At the T1 Side Event at Pro Tour San Diego on Friday, TMD user ForceOfWill Mind Twisted me for the win, and I remembered how awesome it is. I like the build I present above.

I will not retreat from the power of Red. It wins too many matchups for me.

I suggested running Propaganda (to Team Gro), and it was with FCG and Madness in mind. I would like to run 3 in the board, but I also want 2 BEB's. Argh. We need more than 15 cards in the board...

comments?

dave.

[AggressiveDude]

someone tell me why no Ak´s?
why does everyone say that that you loose vs hulk if you play Ak?
If you play clever youcould win because of the AKs.Ok chalice for 2x hurts you but you you can still wish for oxiduze  or you could deed it away.

and Impulse >The new Card

last thing I would like to add(I know this is not the budget forum however)that the TFK engine is only playable in powered versions since discarding a moxen in lategame and keeping 1 extra card is kinda kewl.

[DavidHernandez]

and Impulse >The new Card

I agree with this because Impulse can allow you to dig for what you need, even though Impulse only replaces itself.  I also appreciate the fact that you can do this as an instant without any loss of life, while still pumping Dryad's.

last thing I would like to add(I know this is not the budget forum however)that the TFK engine is only playable in powered versions since discarding a moxen in lategame and keeping 1 extra card is kinda kewl.

i agree with this too.

As for the AK engine, we find that running AK vs. Hulk is a gamble that can be avoided (and tilted in our favor) if we run something else.  This is not a Hulk Deck trying to be GAT--this is a GAT deck trying to replace the Gush engine.

dave.

[DayWalker]

I played also with the TfK engine, but I haven't the full jewelery, I have only Mox Jet, Mox Sapphire, Mox Emerald, Sol Ring and Mana Crypt + 2-3 Deep Analysis and it works.

@DavidHernadez:

Are two Togs enough ?

[DavidHernandez]

are 2 Togs enough?

They are for me.  Ultima likes 3. Remember, this is NOT Hulk.

Dave.

[Ultima]

You see the thing is, the number of togs in GAT is dependent on your draw engine.  You have to figure out if your draw engine can make tog lethal as fast as your dryads.  For example, TFK/DA made Tog lethal relatively fast but Scrying didn't, which is why i played 3 in the first case and 2 with scrying.  

Personally, though I think the draw engine is settled after 5th dawn for awhile and I'm confident and solid on advocating 3.

[DayWalker]

I wanted only to ask, because with two togs I didn't find him so often, that I played for a quick Dryad kill.
I agree with you Ultima, that the number of Togs depends on the draw engine and perhaps of your own play style.

[Rico Suave]

@Whoever suggested Impulse:

It doesn't draw cards.  

@Daywalker:

You want to play the quick Dryad kill even with 3 Togs.  Dryads kill more often, more reliably, and with more speed than Tog.  

With that in mind, I play 3 Togs anyway because they're a threat, whereas other things you might be inclined to run aren't.  Nothing sucks more than losing your tempo because you don't have at threat.  

Tog also blocks nicely against things like FCG, which many have expressed to be a troublesome match.

[walkingdude]

I recall people testing the predict engine a while back, how did that work out? I know my fist ever build of tog (way back in the day before GAT existed and people knew to splash green) used predict to great effect.
It’s worth mentioning that it puts the top card of their library in the grave which means that it counters tutors. Shutting down mystical, vampiric, and lim dulls vault helps some of the combo matches. Also, I imagine that against FCG if they do resolve a recruiter you might be able to mess them up by dumping the ringleader into the grave and letting them draw the next 3 cards the old fashioned way.

Anyway, I’m interested in hearing results for this experiment.

[Tempe]

Against the majority of decks, Predict has a very slim chance of actually hitting and giving you card advantage. Countering the card-disadvantageous tutors is not enough to put it anywhere near the reliability of the other draw engines. On the note about FCG, most FCG players should know by now that stacking 4 Ringleaders on top is almost always the best thing to do, so as not to get screwed by counters.

I think which draw to use comes down to how fast you want to kill. Whisper lets you draw first or second turn, and then counter while you beat down. Every other draw engine can be slowed down if you are forced to counter spells, so they end up being more of a control draw after you have emptied your hand rather than an aggressive draw, basically boosting your initial hand size up to 9 or 10.

I'm not expert on the new GAT, but I do know that the old GAT was really aggressive. Not to say that this is as aggressive, because it clearly can't go off as fast, if at all, but if GAT can't be aggro, then there really is no edge over Hulk. I would run with the speed and no-liability part of the deck, and run Night's Whisper.

Of course, you can always mix and match, since 4 cards that draw 2 are really not enough to completely supply your deck with cards. [card]Pulse of the Grid[/card] was a really cool late-game choice I saw, but the UU in it makes it difficult to cast at some points. Skeletal Scrying is a more appealing late game choice, because it requires very few slots and can fill up your hand later in the game, which is where I would want it. It can also cycle early if need be.

Therefore, I would probably go with 4 Night's Whispers and 2-3 Skeletal Scrying for draw.

--Tempe

[Ultima]

NW plus Scrying is alot of life loss, really you don't even need 4 NW.  Scrying has its drawbacks as its not that easy to cast, you need to drain to make it worth something, and Your Will hates it.

Certainly though the statement that GAT needs to be aggressive is correct.

Interesting devolpments have come out recently concerning NW as testing and new experiments showed that it wasn't NW that was out of wack, it was something else.

I firmly believe right now, that after the 5dawn is legal, GAT will be 60-70% as powerful as its former self.  But i don't think it can go beyond that right now.

[Tempe]

The thing about running less than for Night's Whispers is that you can't expect to consistantly cast it in the first two turns, which is important because thats when Whispers holds the most value over other draw spells. Unless you are substituting those slots with another cheap draw spell (and I don't know of much else better at that CC), then you'll be losing out on some aggressiveness.

I never really payed a lot of attention to the life loss issue. I compare using Whisper and Scrying to using Necro. You're trading one point of life for one card. It is still definitely in your favor to do this, and in my limited testing, it has not made much of a difference. Either I would have lost regardless of the 4 or so life lost, or even with it, I didn't lose. Besides of which, you really don't get a chance to lose much more life than that. GAT should have killed aggro by the time you could cast that much of your draw.

I'm curious to know what you think is the card that is "out of wack" in your testing? Unless of course its secret tech to be unveiled magnificantly at the next tournament .

--Tempe

[AggressiveDude]

@Whoever suggested Impul[/b]se:

It doesn't draw cards.  

@Daywalker:

You want to play the quick Dryad kill even with 3 Togs.  Dryads kill more often, more reliably, and with more speed than Tog.  

With that in mind, I play 3 Togs anyway because they're a threat, whereas other things you might be inclined to run aren't.  Nothing sucks more than losing your tempo because you don't have at threat.  

Tog also blocks nicely against things like FCG, which many have expressed to be a troublesome match.

know I am not saying that you should play Impulse however I think that it is truly superior to NW.

Impulse:Props:
Its Blue
Its an Instant
It grabs you a better card
slops:You draw one card less that NW

Nw: Props:
You draw 1 more card
Slops:It is not blue(yes it makes a difference)
It is no Instant ( if you cast it you cant drain anything turn 1/2)
You loose 2 live which can be quite annoying if you play against aggro.

and if you look at this Impulse is just better .
NW will not see any play this I promise you

Ok now the Tog thing.
I am also for 3 togs.
But togs arent that good blockers since you cant block their main thread(piledriver -> pro blue).
and if you play 3 you can remove one for a FoW.It doesnt make a huge difference but I would play 3.

BTW after testing I figured out that GAT cannot be a Tier 1 deck im sont even sure if it is tier 2 since it looses to ANY KIND OF WORKSHOP and FCG.

[DayWalker]

@Rico Suave:

Yes, Dryads are my mainly kill option, the Tog is only the second most of the time, because Dryad is easier to cast and so it comes faster to grow fast.
The Togs are a nice addition against Aggro or when I have to kill fast, then I would kill with the Tog.

Against FCG the Tog is better, but he can't block the evil Piledriver(AggressiveDzde say it) and that is not that nice, when you have to block with your 4/4 or 5/5 Dryad a 9/2 Piledriver.

[Shades]

Hm, I dont agree with you all. Dryad will never be as good as Tog is and thats why I dont see the reasoning behind playing 4 Dryads and only 2 Togs.

I think Tog is superior in every(!) matchup maybe except the Slaver matchup.

I've tested Ultimas first version with the thirsts and DA's as his main draw engine, and I killed with the Dryad in just about 20% of the games. I always killed via a huge Will. I played it like a combo deck as it is supposed to be and the only combo in this deck is drawing cards like a madman, playing fastbond then will for the carddraw again. Walk and the kill him with the Tog.

I'd play GAT with just 4 Togs and thats it. Then I have more space for protecting my combo and setting it up.

You cant play like 8 Dryads in this deck, if I could, then I'd probably play it with them, but atm I'd never play them, because they need to come 1-2 turn, after that they are simply not goo anymore.

[DayWalker]

Hm, I dont agree with you all. Dryad will never be as good as Tog is and thats why I dont see the reasoning behind playing 4 Dryads and only 2 Togs.I'd play GAT with just 4 Togs and thats it.

The most play 2-3 Togs, because this deck is not Hulk and they didn't need the fourth Tog.

When you play only with four Togs you can also go with Hulk, when you don't want to play with Dryads and you think that they aren't needed.

[Shades]

@ Daywalker: Absolutely right. Why should I play this over Hulk, there is no reason. Hulk is just the better deck. I mentioned playing 4 Togs instead of the 4 Dryad/2 Tog configuration because I wanted to express that I think that Tog is always better than Dryad is. Dryad needs many circumstances to be good, Tog is always good.(with the exception of Slaver)

[jpmeyer]

Hm, I dont agree with you all. Dryad will never be as good as Tog is and thats why I dont see the reasoning behind playing 4 Dryads and only 2 Togs.I'd play GAT with just 4 Togs and thats it.

The most play 2-3 Togs, because this deck is not Hulk and they didn't need the fourth Tog.

When you play only with four Togs you can also go with Hulk, when you don't want to play with Dryads and you think that they aren't needed.

I was under the impression that what he was saying was that he'd play the deck if he could play 8 cards that say Quirion Dryad, because once you start using Togs in those spaces it just becomes just as good to just play Tog.

If you're running 4 Dryad/3 Tog, it's just like Tog training wheels or something.  Tog is able to win a mad lot with just 3 creatures,  It doesn't need 7 because the 4 other creatures that you added took up slots that you could've just used as more raw draw, which is more flexible than a Dryad because the draw does something (draws you cards) AND pumps your Tog rather than Dryad which only does something if a condition is met.  I think part of the problem about figuring out a draw engine for GAT is partly because with 4 fewer slots in the deck you just can't run the robust amount of draw that Tog has.

[Rico Suave]

I want to take this opportunity to express what I think on this new catch-phrase that seems to be spreading like wildfire.

How does Dryad require a set of circumstances to be good, but Tog doesn't?  With Dryad you simply cast spells.  With Tog, it needs Cunning Wish for Berserk in order to be good.  If anything, I think Tog demands the right circumstances just as much, if not moreso, than Dryad.  While you could say it's not good after the first two turns or so, that's why you have Tog which isn't good on the first few turns anyway.  

You will win many games based solely on Dryad, and you will also win many games based solely on Tog.  While Hulk usually has bigger Togs, note how it doesn't have Dryads.  That's why you play GAT over Hulk, because Dryad will win many games that Tog cannot.  

Against FCG the Tog is better, but he can't block the evil Piledriver(AggressiveDzde say it) and that is not that nice, when you have to block with your 4/4 or 5/5 Dryad a 9/2 Piledriver.

No, but he can do things like block their Lackey.  He can also block their other goblins to reduce the Piledriver's size so it's not a 9/2 every turn, which means it can double-team with a Dryad to take out Piledrivers and keep Dryad ticking.

[AggressiveDude]

I know its a bit off Topic but how about 4 chill sideboard to fix that machtup against FCG?

[Shades]

@ Rico:
1. circumstance: Needs to come 1st or 2nd turn, because its a very crappy mid to lategame draw.

2. It needs many spells to become good. And those spells shouldnt be too expensive, because then you cant play many of them in order to grow yur dryad. And cards with lower cc usually have a worse effect.
The old GAT has like 12 free spells if I remember correctly. 4 Gush, 4 MisD, 4 FoW. Now Gush is restricted and MisD isnt as strong anymore.
Gush really made this deck shine. It was strictly better than Hulk in those days. But now you have to rely on a inferior draw engine like Thirst/DA or even Intuition/AK/DA. These draw engines simply cost a lot of mana, mana you dont want to spend, because then your dryads dont grow so fast.

And no, you are not right, when you say, that Tog isnt good without Cunning Wish->Berserk. It is still a house. A hell lot better than a dryad without mana spells to cats. When you play Tog you can simply put it into play and your opponents hordes just stop to attack, whereas your little dryad needs a lot of spells to become a real threat for your opponent.

Please show me a match, where the dryad wins a game which Tog could never win.

It's like JP said, the dryads could also be more carddraw or protecting for your combo (GAT is a combo). I really like to play vs. a deck that has less carddraw than me, but packs little creatures that are easy to remove. Dryads dont fight over an Intuition or Ancestral, I think that they are like STP in the control matchup, just overkill and not needed.

I agree with you that they CAN be threat if they come down first turn, then its hard to find a proper answer, but also in that case you can simply put a Tog int play and youre dryad wont attack anymore.

[Ultima]

I think there are many true and false statements here.  I think that both tog and dryad are good, but how good they are depends on when you  drop them.

Dryad is immensely better than tog in the early game.  Tog is better than dryad in the late game, mid-game they could almost be equal.

I think the most false statement here is the statment that tog is always good.  That is simply not true.  If your playing aggro like FCG and had to waste counters stopping chain or the combo, your hand becomes depleted and tog is not always what you wanna see.  Certainly, there times when you don't have a hand and tog is not good.  Without a hand or yard devolped tog is not good and these situations happen.  At least with dryad, you got a big guy when your hands gone.

Additionally, if your opponent drops a tog, that doesn't always mean your dryad is shut off.  I'll happily still swing into a tog with a big drayd and twist you or remove your yard.  Because i can come back from that faster than Hulk can.  

I don't think a dryad is over kill.  Certainly GAT offers a different gameplan than Hulk that doesn't making it better in some matchs like against Hulk or Control Slaver.

Hulk is control combo and GAT is aggro-combo, so play your style.

[paradigm]

To address the viability of both decks, Dryad or Tog, and which one should play, an analysis of the current metagame is needed. With the key matchups right now being Control Slaver, Workshop Slaver, and Hulk Smash, sizing the decks between these powerhouses demonstrates more differences between the two as whichever performs better in these matchups will be the more viable deck to play.

Workshop Slaver

The Dryads in GrowAtog are a safer route than the Togs due to the powerful effects of the slaver. However, they also have a difficult time matching the speed of Workshop Slaver, especially if it intends to drop the Dryad on turn two (when Mana Drain mana becomes so important). The idea here is that GAT must fall into the control role as Workshop slaver is clearly the beatdown, and the ability to win in one strike with a Tog becomes an X-factor - you'd rather having card drawing that Hulk has to stay in the matchup in terms of counters and to drop a Tog with a fat graveyard as opposed to a fat hand to pull out a quick victory.

Although GAT is better suited to survive a Slaver with more intact, once one hits, massive tempo loss is achieved - especially with a Welder in play. In addition Memnarch also solves Dryads the same way it does Tog. Ultimately this matchup comes down the the Togs, and here, you would rather run Hulk Smash.

Control Slaver

Control Slaver tends to become the more proactive deck in this matchup, in the sense that it enjoys tossing out spells such as Goblin Welder, Thirst for Knowledge, and the broken one-ofs that force the opponent to respond by having to play out threats - which in turn fall into Control Slaver's plan of Draining them. To ignore the threats is to suffer quite profusely as the opposing deck usually becomes the control deck for the first 2-3 turns, where they are hit by a volley of threats. Thus sticking to a Dryad plan becomes difficult. Although GAT has more threats for control slaver to deal with, it becomes difficult to play out those threats. Another difficulty here is that GAT has a much more difficult time fitting in Gorilla Shaman, which is key in this matchup, especially dealing with Welder. Postsideboard, no threat becomes stronger, as even Tog has a difficult time trying to both resolve and run over Slaver. The turn one drop of Shaman becomes a solid choice here, which Hulk can accomodate but GAT has a more difficult time inserting. Since Shaman can be used in both slaver matchups, it creates an advantage for Hulk, which will often side out 2-3 of its Togs for Shamans, despite the slower nature of the win condition.

Hulk Smash

Here, GAT has a stronger advantage. While Tog will become bigger than Dryad on more occasions than not, the Hulk player must expend threats to deal with it, and while it the matchup will usually come down to Tog vs Tog in the late-game, the Dryads allow the GAT player to have a larger advantage once that point is reached.

The difficulty with the above scenario becomes when the Dryad is played. If it is played in the mid-game or later it becomes a question of which happened first, the GAT player dropping a Dryad or the Hulk player dropping a Tog. If the former happens, it plays into the GAT players hands as the Hulk Smash player must respond to the Dryad, as the cheap cantrips only need to get it to a 4/4 or higher level before the Tog player must begin to answer - which plays strongly into the GAT players hands - either countering enough threats to force a victory or causing the Hulk player to expend enough cards to deal with it.

However, in the case of the latter scenario occuring, the Dryad becomes significantly worse as the Tog is a threat that must always be addressed - and the threat of Cunning Wish always looms and makes it more difficult to grow a Dryad to the point that it is not a chump blocker.

Another factor here is that the Hulk player does not run Misdirection, which does provide an edge in terms of early counter battles. The ability of Dryads to not be REB'd is also an issue worth noting. But here, it becomes an issue of how early Dryads can be played, and, as Stephen Menendian noted, you can't assure yourself to have one early in the game every game, and should that happen, the deck will play out like a bad Hulk more often than not.

The decks obviously have their strengths in different metagames (i.e. GAT has a bigger advantage over FCG than Hulk Smash), however in a wide open field, Hulk Smash would appear to be preferred because of the more focused nature of its gameplan (Tog only) as opposed to Dryad or Tog of GAT, and also because of the expected higher showings of Control Slaver and even Workshop Slaver over the summer.

For lack of time to type, what are ya'lls beliefs over the strengths of the two in the Fish and combo matchups, which currently round out the higher quartile of the current metagame?

[Rico Suave]

@ Rico:
1. circumstance: Needs to come 1st or 2nd turn, because its a very crappy mid to lategame draw.

That's the point.  This is a tempo deck built on the first few turns.  You don't run Dryad so you can be happy to draw it in the midgame.  You run it so you can play it first turn and just win.  

2. It needs many spells to become good. And those spells shouldnt be too expensive, because then you cant play many of them in order to grow yur dryad. And cards with lower cc usually have a worse effect.
The old GAT has like 12 free spells if I remember correctly. 4 Gush, 4 MisD, 4 FoW. Now Gush is restricted and MisD isnt as strong anymore.
Gush really made this deck shine. It was strictly better than Hulk in those days. But now you have to rely on a inferior draw engine like Thirst/DA or even Intuition/AK/DA. These draw engines simply cost a lot of mana, mana you dont want to spend, because then your dryads dont grow so fast.

You could say Tog needs many spells to become good too.  You think Tog just pops out of the womb as a 20/20?  No, it requires just as much maintenance as a Dryad does.  Really, if you're not casting spells, you'll lose no matter what cards you play.  

Also, comparing modern GAT to old GAT as a reason to play Hulk is like trying to compare modern day Long to LED-Long as a reason to play Dragon over it.  It's not relevant.  I'd seriously hope we had to rely on an inferior engine than Gush - it is restricted for a reason.

And no, you are not right, when you say, that Tog isnt good without Cunning Wish->Berserk. It is still a house. A hell lot better than a dryad without mana spells to cats. When you play Tog you can simply put it into play and your opponents hordes just stop to attack, whereas your little dryad needs a lot of spells to become a real threat for your opponent.

Once again, if you're not casting spells, you're not going to win whether you're playing Tog or Dryad.

Also, notice how that entire paragraph still applies to GAT.  It's not like you're dropping Tog from GAT, it's just that Dryad and Tog complement each other.  One is good on the first few turns, the other is better late game.  I'd rather just have both options than limit myself to one.

Please show me a match, where the dryad wins a game which Tog could never win.

Like when GAT drops it first turn against Hulk.  A first turn Tog does jack, but a first turn Dryad wins.  And after the 2nd turn, you still have Tog to do more dirty work.

It's like JP said, the dryads could also be more carddraw or protecting for your combo (GAT is a combo). I really like to play vs. a deck that has less carddraw than me, but packs little creatures that are easy to remove. Dryads dont fight over an Intuition or Ancestral, I think that they are like STP in the control matchup, just overkill and not needed.

Except in many cases the reason Tog loses is exactly because it has too much card-draw and not enough ways to apply tempo.  What does card-draw do vs. Fish, or FCG?  They don't care if you have 7 cards in hand when they win.  

@paradigm: hopefully this goes to answer your question regarding which is better against Fish. ;)

If you're going to bring up Dryads not fighting over something like an early Ancestral or Intuition, perhaps you can clarify to me how Deep Analysis does.  Also, the use of Misdirection more than makes up for anything in fighting over early game cards.

I agree with you that they CAN be threat if they come down first turn, then its hard to find a proper answer, but also in that case you can simply put a Tog int play and youre dryad wont attack anymore.

Sure, go ahead.  If you block the Dryad, in many cases you have to dump a large portion of your hand.  That's not a good situation to be in as a Hulk player.  In that case, then you also have to deal with their follow up Tog too.  They do run twice as many threats, mind you.

[jpmeyer]

The problem that I'm seeing in these Tog/GAT matchup analyses are that people are overvaluing the creatures.  An opposing Tog or Dryad means nothing unless it will be lethal.  This is where the idea that a Dryad that comes out later than turn 1-2 is weak comes from.  If your opponent casts a turn 5 Dryad, while that only gives you 3-4 turns to live, even against control Tog usually doesn't kill after turn 10 anyway due to the fact that it has a one turn kill.  Even if they have like a 6/6 Dryad are something and they attack, the Tog player can just pump their blocking Tog 5 times and then kill you if the game has gone this late.  The discarding to do this also doesn't necessarily matter since in all likelihood you will be discarding lands/spells that you probably won't even be able to use before the game ends anyway (oh and also note that figuring out which cards you won't end up using before the game ends is important for playing Madness, too.)

The other reason that Dryad is only really good turns 1-2 is because until around turn 5ish, in the Tog mirror you can cast just about anything you want because nothing that happens during this time "matters" in the sense that really nothing can outright win the game at this point (like Will, Tog, etc.) so you can do things like say, tap out turn 2 for Deep Analysis.  Dryad messes this up because now these random spells that they can just try to cast make it so that you can very likely die before the game leaves this stage due to Dryad.

[Dozer]

Taking the Tog vs. Dryad discussion a step further (and slightly back to the topic): Would you associate either of the two debated draw spells (Night's Whisper vs. Skeletal Scrying) with any of the win conditions? Like, say, when trying to win with Dryad, Whisper is better, and when trying to win with Tog, Scrying is better?
Pushing this further, would eliminating the Tog from the equation make it easier to decide which draw spell you'd rather have? I ask because of Grow-variants without Tog. To me it seems like these would want Whisper instead of Scrying, purely to reach a higher amount of spells to pump. If you play Scrying for 3, you'll spend four mana, but you can draw the same amount of cards by playing Night's Whisper and any cantrip (often for three instead of four mana). Of course this appears to be less effective, with a net gain of one less card, but in terms of pumping a Dryad it is arguably better, especially since you have mana left to play another one-mana cantrip.

To me it seems that Scrying indicates anticipation of a longer, more controllish game, and Night's Whisper basically says "I want it all, and I want it now". Also, Night's Whisper is undoubtedly more cost-effective than Scrying. I see more advantages there: a) in the early game it gets you closer to a Dryad faster, and b) in the midgame it is still a cost-effective drawer which leaves room in your mana curve to add to it one or two cantrips, thus having a more immediate (and therefore "faster") effect on your Dryad (that you should have found by then). Of course, if you have a Tog in play, this playstyle is moot, but if there is a Dryad, it might actually be more rewarding in terms of speed.

I feel that the draw spells are closely tied to the win conditions and should be determined by the game plan you have. The question is: Which game plan do you want to focus on? And how much can you rely on Tog in GAT before you are better off playing Hulk?

Dozer

[Ultima]

The truth is again the speed of at which you can make your men lethal.  Night Whisper is better for dryad AND Tog because although scrying may net more cards, its not as cost restrictive and lets you accelerate through the deck faster than waiting for a drain sink or land build up. Plus there's something to be said for the fact that Scrying only makes Tog lethal through your hand which is not ideal.

On the Tog vs. Dryad, the question always comes back to when is one creature better than the other.  Dryad is an early game card and Tog is a mid-late game guy.  Hulk has a draw engine that can make Tog lethal in the early game also, so why not just play Hulk because it makes Tog always good so to speak.  Old GAT had the ability to make both of these guys lethal at any point in the game which is why it dominated so well.

There is a strong argument for both of these.  I think at the moment, it depends on your playstyle.  After the 5thdawn though, thats gonna change.

[Rico Suave]

The problem that I'm seeing in these Tog/GAT matchup analyses are that people are overvaluing the creatures.  An opposing Tog or Dryad means nothing unless it will be lethal.  This is where the idea that a Dryad that comes out later than turn 1-2 is weak comes from.  If your opponent casts a turn 5 Dryad, while that only gives you 3-4 turns to live, even against control Tog usually doesn't kill after turn 10 anyway due to the fact that it has a one turn kill.  Even if they have like a 6/6 Dryad are something and they attack, the Tog player can just pump their blocking Tog 5 times and then kill you if the game has gone this late.  The discarding to do this also doesn't necessarily matter since in all likelihood you will be discarding lands/spells that you probably won't even be able to use before the game ends anyway (oh and also note that figuring out which cards you won't end up using before the game ends is important for playing Madness, too.)

The other reason that Dryad is only really good turns 1-2 is because until around turn 5ish, in the Tog mirror you can cast just about anything you want because nothing that happens during this time "matters" in the sense that really nothing can outright win the game at this point (like Will, Tog, etc.) so you can do things like say, tap out turn 2 for Deep Analysis.  Dryad messes this up because now these random spells that they can just try to cast make it so that you can very likely die before the game leaves this stage due to Dryad.

I think a key ingredient missing from this is the fact that GAT has twice as many threats.  Even if you deal with a turn 5 Dryad, how do you deal with their follow-up Tog which is now bigger than yours?  

And if we're just going to examine what happens when GAT drops Dryad on turn 5, then of course it's going to look like it's in favor of the Tog player.  What about first turn Dryad?  That's not so easy to just blow off.

That also leads into my next point: while you say Tog mirrors don't cast anything that outright wins the game in the early turns, GAT is a tempo deck built to take advantage of that point in time with things like first turn Dryad and Misdirection on your Deep Anals.  For another example, Fish is a deck that beats Tog based on tempo.  That's because Tog has a hard time mustering up it's own tempo, since it's so busy casting draw spells that don't affect the board (or even worse, help the opponent out because now in order to come from behind you have to play into their Drains and Mis-D's).  FCG doesn't care if you cast more card draw, because they walk right through and win.

I feel that the draw spells are closely tied to the win conditions and should be determined by the game plan you have. The question is: Which game plan do you want to focus on? And how much can you rely on Tog in GAT before you are better off playing Hulk?

My game plan is to be able to play both aggro and control.  Playing aggro is easy - just drop Dryad.  I use Scrying because if I want to play the control game, I can't really expect to play Whispers and Drain at the same time.  On the other hand, it is easy to just leave your mana open for Drain, then Scry whenever there's an opening.

I think during the process of evaluating what your game plan is, you shouldn't just examine the draw engine, but you should also examine the use of Mana Drain.

[Zelc]

I'd like to point out that with 3 Damping Matrixes in the side, GAT has the option of siding into Dryad Hate for Workshop matches while still retaining the abillity to play tog and win against everything else.  Additionally, Dryads don't get killed by the ever-popular REB, although they are more vulnerable to burn.

[DavidHernandez]

I'd like to point out that with 3 Damping Matrixes in the side, GAT has the option of siding into Dryad Hate for Workshop matches while still retaining the abillity to play tog and win against everything else.

Yes. Actually, you can run 2 if your GAT build only has 2 Togs in it.  I find 2 is sufficient, but then I also run 2 Null Rods in my board. See the top of page 5 of this thread for more on this.

Dave.