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Author Topic: European vs. US/NA Tournament Policy and the Metagame  (Read 2017 times)
jazzykat
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« on: May 15, 2004, 01:14:39 pm »

Well I was contemplating how different it will be in Europe last night as I actually scrubbed out of a tourney :0!!!! [sarcasm]Imagine that![/sarcasm]

I thought about how insanely powerful the Columbus meta is with all of the meandeck influence and unlimited proxies. Then I thought of Dulmen with no proxies and mono-green lando winning once and white weenie taking a top 8 (mentioned just to make dr. sylvan froth at the mouth).

Then I thought about our site and how we really are the bastion of T1 knowledge. Although there are some members that seem to relish in one line replies like this card is garbage, and then there was the JP thread that was humorously done in the closed T1 forum that had everyone posting favorable and unfavorable deck matchups.


So here are the two questions I came up with (if any lawyers (or law students) want to help reform these questions to create better logic or use better defined words then please go ahead):

1. Is the US metagame more competitive due to allowing of proxies and the higher availibility of cards or are we just measuring competitive incorrectly?

2. Are one line posts saying card/deck x or y sucks indirectly discouraging inovation? This of course would indirectly lead to a more powerful metagame.

1. I personally feel that you really can't compare the two and since T1 is the only division of magic that has pretty widespread proxy use I think it is tough to decide the definition of competitive because whenever five proxy tourneys spring up there are I think an abnormal amount of fish and such thus distorting the metagame yet again. When unlimited proxies are allowed like in Columbus then you have match after match of MeanDeck slaver battles. When no proxies are allowed WW makes top 8 in Dulmen (mentioned again to give Dr. Sylvan fits :B, although he is really a good dude.)

The crazy thing about proxies and all of this is that in T2 or extended you either have the card or don't, but since the cards are all for the most part less than 20 dollars most everyone can build at least one deck. Thus we usually see a high number of "competitive decks" in both metas.

2. This is frowned on (I think even in the rules) but I still see it happen. Now when someone says OMG! the new rats in 5D are soooo good, I am going to play it in T1, instead of calling that person a fucktard or a stupid n3wb, someone should tell them nicely that that isn't really competive and that by browsing the forums and asking questions(which is done many times by the more thoughtful members with mod power, or even basic users), even by PM of the nicer members (most of them love talking about their decks anyway) there is a lot to learn and we can grow not only the site but T1 in general.

I personally have met a few people that have top eighted at Waterbury that don't post on this site for one reason or another, mostly due to the perceived "elitism" or what they perceive as close mindedness. These are genuinely nice and classy (meaning they are gracious in defeat or victory)
people and excellent competitors but we do not have them contributing fully due to their perceptions.

I know another guy who has been crushing people at my local tournament with an aggro tubby deck, that has regular showings of Germbus, drain slaver, draw7, TPS, tog, food chain goblins, GAT, Dargon, and gay/red but he won't post his deck because he is afraid you will all say that it sucks.

Now this is a private board and:
1. people can take it or leave it
2. NO ONE! is entitled to anything, Z can kick every each and one of us without so much as saying or writing a single word.
3.I am not saying that we should kowtow to individuals that don't agree with the policies of the board, or the way certain people are treated
but it seems that we are missing the input of certain very creative and good players due to what I perceive at times as excessive negative comments.

I personally would like it if we could have a more constructive attitude on these boards with such words as can't and bad followed with because and a sensible explanation or a link to one. We should also take into account that not everyone is articulate in their writing as some of the members that have had many years of college or are naturally gifted writers (spell checkers only solve so much).


Enjoy your Saturday and Peace!
JK
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The Priory
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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2004, 04:13:35 pm »

I hear you, but I have to say good luck.  The attitudes you decry seem inherent to type one players.  I've never met more annoying people than I have at type 1 tourneys, it can be like a star trek convention without the costumes, substitute " I can speak Klingon", for "OMG, turn 1 Lotus, mox, ritual, Academy, Twist, drop, wheel, will, desire for 11, Good Game".  They are by and large a little different, a little, shall I say Autistic.  Not all of them, thank God, but the minority of freaks will always be like that guy on the Simpson's that runs the comic book store.  You're friends don't like those kinds of guys, I don't either.  It doesn't stop me from posting, you have to take the good with the bad.  There's no community in the world that doesn't have a few knuckleheads in it, so be realistic and post you're deck.  If its good, good players will realize it and reply.
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Rico Suave
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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2004, 04:23:04 pm »

Quote from: jazzykat
I personally would like it if we could have a more constructive attitude on these boards with such words as can't and bad followed with because and a sensible explanation or a link to one.


Ok.  You can be the first to start by critiquing me.

Twiddle is an excellent card in current T1.  It can buy you a turn if you tap a Welder in response to Thirst for Knowledge, you can pitch it to Force of Will, and you can use it at end of turn to deny a Tog player UU for Drain.

Now tell me, do you need more than one line to say Twiddle is bad?  Or do you need to write a full length discertation?  

In my opinion saying a card is bad is a very constructive attitude - constructive in the sense of reducing scrubiness in the metagame.  

Seriously now, some people take things way too seriously.  If you suggest something on these boards, you'd better have put in some effort or at least some thought about it.  To be honest, if I see something that is worthy of a one-line post on my part, it's mostly because the person I'm replying to put in the same amount of effort that I did, so why would I put in more effort than they did?  

I think your expectations are way too high.  Some one-line posts are way out of line, but from my experience most are perfectly appropriate.  

At anyrate, if people have a perceived idea that this site is elitist, or that we'll say their idea sucks, then what do you want us to do about it?  You can't please everyone, because as soon as you start conveniencing some people to that point, you lose more people than is worth it.  I don't come to this site to read multi-page responses to stupid points.  I want that crap out of the way.

Another thing I don't come to this site for is to read complaints about the quality of things.  I don't mean to be offensive, but lately it seems there are more posts about the site policy than about...magic.  Yay!
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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2004, 04:32:28 pm »

First: Moved to Basic Community.

Second, "innovation" is a buzzword people use to cover the "I'm gonna prove myself a genius deckbuilder or die trying" mentality. More people need to accept that in Magic (even Type One), like every other field of human knowledge, it is difficult to think of something actually original, let alone original and useful. You won't find me speaking about strategy because I have accepted and come to peace with my awfulness as a player. This is, incidentally, why I feel the Casual and Newbie forums should be used way more than they are.
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« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2004, 07:29:17 pm »

Quote from: Dr. Sylvan
Second, "innovation" is a buzzword people use to cover the "This idea is shitty but I don't want people to shoot it down" mentality.
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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2004, 09:37:53 pm »

Quote from: defector
The attitudes you decry seem inherent to type one players.  I've never met more annoying people than I have at type 1 tourneys, it can be like a star trek convention without the costumes, substitute " I can speak Klingon", for "OMG, turn 1 Lotus, mox, ritual, Academy, Twist, drop, wheel, will, desire for 11, Good Game".  They are by and large a little different, a little, shall I say Autistic.
In my experiences, the opposite is true.  The T1 players I've met tend to be more mature and thus seem to lack the adolescent need to prove themselves (and since T1 players are generally older and have jobs/professions, we tend to have mastered basic social skills like conversation and showering Wink ).
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Mage of Dreams
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« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2004, 10:59:37 pm »

Quote
1. Is the US metagame more competitive due to allowing of proxies and the higher availibility of cards or are we just measuring competitive incorrectly?


IMO trying to equate distant and diverse metagames is next to impossible. The differance between the Global, Regional, and Local metagame is extemely pronounced.

The Global metagame is the easest to predict. In a way this seems couterintuitive but the fact remains that it is. This is mostly because the Global metagame is almost purely hypothetical. By nature it is assumed that most players will be reasonably skilled and decks will be mostly optimal. The reasoning of card availability can be dismissed and decks are easily broken down into tiers. This would seem to be because on paper it's a relitively easy game to figure out.

The Regional metagame is a first step into reality.  Regional metagames seem to be much more geared towards archtypes. For example, as a general rule the Europeans seem to play much more combo then the US. Likewise the East Coast runs heavier control and prison while the West Coast trends towards a more aggro style.
My first sence of this came some years back while living in Utah. At that time it was common to do very well with tuned "rogue" decks against the decks coming in from Nevada or Cali. However these decks just fell flat when played in other areas.
At the Regional level more focused info begins to filter in, # of proxies, real time test results that factor likely play skill, card choices and availability, etc. while still using alot of "it works on paper" logic still prevelent. Regional metagames trend with the Global metagame with some cool innovation thrown in as well as the occasional surprise.

The Local metagame is where reality takes the steering wheel. This is where actual player skill, deck choices etc. really count. It is also the place where "tier 1" decks fall to WW and Sui on occasion. In my observations this usually happens at one of two times,

1. A sudden shift in archtypes. Usually the new archtype being played is not quite optimized yet, and the players are still working on playing the deck. It's at times like this when consistant aggresive decks can win thru to the T8.

2. The Local metagame becomes so inbred with one or two decks that they are basicly built to beat each other and themselves. At times like this these decks haven't had to deal with alot of other types of threats and have cut cards to make room for answers to themselves.

These windows tend to very short, but when they appear you can rack up the wins with "loser" decks.

Too often it seems that threads get out of hand when posters are talking about metagames because there is usually no "compass" as to which one we're talking about. Local metagames tend to lean towards the Regional decks to beat, but are often totaly random.

Quote
2. Are one line posts saying card/deck x or y sucks indirectly discouraging inovation? This of course would indirectly lead to a more powerful metagame.

Quote
Now tell me, do you need more than one line to say Twiddle is bad? Or do you need to write a full length discertation?

In my opinion saying a card is bad is a very constructive attitude - constructive in the sense of reducing scrubiness in the metagame.


Quote
Second, "innovation" is a buzzword people use to cover the "I'm gonna prove myself a genius deckbuilder or die trying" mentality.


Yes and no. Again it depends on what metgame your talking about. On a Global scale, card A, isn't worth the cardboard it's printed on. Regionaly it has been considered and dismissed. Locally, card A is uber tech!

The first thing I thought of when I saw this question was Matt Place needing to be payed to play Stasis in the middle of Black Summer, because it sucked so bad. Who knew??!!

I think alot of the time people who don't understand that their local store is a microcosom end up getting the one liners. Of course at Danny's Cards and Diner they'll trade you 3 FoW and 1 DoJ for your 1 Savannah Lions cause the cats rule down there in the bayou.
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jazzykat
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« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2004, 02:55:27 am »

Quote from: Rico Suave
Twiddle is an excellent card in current T1. It can buy you a turn if you tap a Welder in response to Thirst for Knowledge, you can pitch it to Force of Will, and you can use it at end of turn to deny a Tog player UU for Drain.


OK here is what I think would be a useful response (because who ever the author was, did not show a great deal of magic knowledge):

Since you didn't post what deck you are using twiddle why don't we look at the reasons you cited to use twiddle:
1 TAP, welder
2 TAP, an island
3 PITCH to force of will

Fire/Ice does all your tapping duty for a colorless more and replaces itself never being a dead card. Ice also pitches to force of will. If you have red in the deck then you also get the bonus of Fire which can take out welders and other annoying little guys.

(That took 2 minutes to type, and wow that guy probably will use fire/ice and be a better player)




Quote from: Rico Suave

Some one-line posts are way out of line...


I think I was talking about the rude posts, so we are in agreement. I also post short answers posing a question, or pointing out a particular point.


Quote from: Rico Suave

At anyrate, if people have a perceived idea that this site is elitist, or that we'll say their idea sucks, then what do you want us to do about it?  


Just be civil in your posts and that is all one can ask, perception is different for everyone. I see this site as helping to progress T1, and the health of the metagame but also a community, we have to be ambassadors of the game. Wether the guys who win tournaments all the time like it or not, new players look up to them in a manner similar to T2 players and Kai Budde.

Quote from: Rico Suave

Another thing I don't come to this site for is to read complaints about the quality of things.  I don't mean to be offensive, but lately it seems there are more posts about the site policy than about...magic.  Yay!


No offense is taken and I don't come to this site to read about complaints, but there are posts about it and they mostly revolve around having full member status, although there are a few on general conduct.  Maybe there is a reason that there are so many posts complaining, and no one forces you to read any post. I just skip reading complaint threads.

Furthermore I hope you don't see this as a complaint thread I had two loosely connected ideas that I wanted to bring up. If I believe this forum to be not useful or not to my liking I have the same choice as you or anyone else: LEAVE. [edit] We also have the choice to continue to be part of the community and contribute in a constructive manner[/edit]

RE: innovation: I am glad we have semantics discussion of sorts. Should the word be thrown out? Are there new things happening in magic or has it all been done before, and we are just playing new iterations of what was in 1994?

[quote ="mage of dreams"] Too often it seems that threads get out of hand when posters are talking about metagames because there is usually no "compass" as to which one we're talking about. Local metagames tend to lean towards the Regional decks to beat, but are often totaly random.
[/quote]
Excellent point.
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« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2004, 02:06:45 pm »

To Ravenfire:  I wish you'd read the whole post, I later go on to say that these people represent a minority.  The majority of my experience is in line with yours, but I've yet to get out of a tourney without dealing with at least one annoying kid and one overtalkative/irritating rules lawyer or trek nerd.  It doesn't stop me from going/enjoying, and I'm sure that even the annoying people have more in common with me than magic.  don't get too defenxive about it, these people exist and I don't let it bother me.  The point of my post was that our original fear of not coming onto TMD due to negative/irritating people is unfounded.  You might get flamed, but being part of the community is worth it to me, you may get quoted out of context as well, still nothing to get worked up about.
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« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2004, 02:06:58 pm »

To Ravenfire:  I wish you'd read the whole post, I later go on to say that these people represent a minority.  The majority of my experience is in line with yours, but I've yet to get out of a tourney without dealing with at least one annoying kid and one overtalkative/irritating rules lawyer or trek nerd.  It doesn't stop me from going/enjoying, and I'm sure that even the annoying people have more in common with me than magic.  don't get too defenxive about it, these people exist and I don't let it bother me.  The point of my post was that our original fear of not coming onto TMD due to negative/irritating people is unfounded.  You might get flamed, but being part of the community is worth it to me, you may get quoted out of context as well, still nothing to get worked up about.
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