I don't like Ben Bleiweiss a whole lot.

[Bram]

In today's Starcitygames artice, Ben does what JayPee already did: he reviews Fifth Dawn for Type One. With one major difference: Bleiweiss seems to enjoy the occasional uncalled-for sneer at Type One. His attitude makes me not like him a whole lot.

Wait, Carnival of Souls is being played in competitive Type One decks now.

Erm...did I miss something? Maybe if you call Kobold Clamp 'competitive'...

you'd think there'd be many more viable decks out there than what the current crop of Type One players have come up with so far.

You'd think that yeah, but you could just as well be dead wrong. Of ALL the archetypes that exists and thanks to the work of men like Stephen Menendian have evolved into their optimal configurations, only a handful are powerful enough to compete on any serious level (Tog, the two Drain variants and Germbus). Even a deck that runs ALL the draw7's in the game plus all he mana accelleration and the best combo kill ever (Tendrils) doesn't make the cut. So yeah, I REALLY believe that there's some obscure way to break Aysen Highway into a Tog-beater...

If you are a Type One player and are offended by my implications there, work harder!

If you are an eight-time Pro Tour competitor and really believe that Carnival of Souls is playable in competitive Type One, shut the fuck up! Seriously, this is a huge insult to the community as a whole. We know we haven't been as innovative as the other formats in the past (for lack of incentive!) but if you would actually keep up with current events, you'd notice a drastic swing over the last year or so, which not only saw people like Smmenen elevate the game to a higher standard, but also saw a massive rise in the popularity of T1 all over the world resulting in budget strategies that are actually good (FCG) and general opinions on the format shifting from prejudice to constructive criticism. Your take on Type One is SO two years ago, man.

I just wish I hadn't seen about a dozen mistakes per match during those one to two turns while covering the Type One championships at GenCon last year.

I'll give you that one. By pure necessity standard and extended players are more skilled on average. Type One decks in the past have been very redundant and forgiving of play errors. Add to that a general low level of opponent skill (there is no 'selection' for Type One events like there is for pro tour formats), and you have a situation in which skill is not the main requirement for victory. But like I said in my previous paragraph, all that is changing rapidly (a lot of it has changed already with pros turning to the format). The current competitive Type One player is an alltogether different chap than you make him out to be.

At least Ben goes on from there to perform a relatively intelligent card analysis, showing a more thourough knowledge of the format that I would have given him credit for judging by the first paragraphs of his article. But there he goes off ranting against uf poor Type One players in the All Sun's Dawn analysis:

Initially, I see a majority of Type One players pooh-poohing this spell as it requires five mana to cast. They are idiots, plain and simple. Keeper can easily run a copy of this in their deck, and use it to get back: (random list of good cards)

Ever occur to you that maybe Keeper doesn't need an off-color, all-but-twice-as-expensive, and above all, worse Yawgmoth's Will? You make it sound like we don't think about card in other terms then 'Nah. Too expensive.' and dismiss them without serious thought or playtesting. Stop putting us down, man.

And here he goes again.

Skullclamps numbers five through eight, if you so wish. Can't you people break Skullclamp into restriction already? Every other format is already getting it banned, and you have a much larger card pool to work with!

Like Knut was so kind to remark, Skullclamp needs creatures. It needs a LOT of creatures, and they need to be SMALL. In Type One, if you win with creatures at all, you will run a small number of them, and they sure as fuck won't be clampable. But did you really think 'we' haven't tried to break it? It is being played and developed competitively right now matter of fact; the skilled Menno Rieff has made T8 (#4) once in the high-powerd environment of Eindhoven, and despite massive effort in Germany, it only T8'ed in Duelmen once as well. Face it...a card worthy of bannings in every other format is just too weak for us.

Zvi's Turboland deck has never been accurately translated to Type One, even though it has a bazillion more tools to work with in this format and has been a proven winner in several Extended metagames. Look Type One people - another deck for you to stea... errr, borrow and retool!

1. There have been Turboland and Turbonevyn in Type One, both devised over 4 yars ago, and both of which were decent in their day.
2. The fact that you win an extended tourney with something doesn't mean it's good (or even possible...) in Type One.
3. Yeah, and like I'm REAL sure Type One is the only format that steals concepts. Take a look at Extended Madness and Extended Ravager. Really original lists, yo.

In conclusion, while this article is seems to cater to the Type One community, it's really little more than a series of low-blows held together by a marginal card-by card analysis. Thanks Ben.

[mrieff]

It is being played and developed competitively right now matter of fact; the skilled Menno Rieff has made T8 (#4) once in the high-poweerd environment of Eindhoven, and despite massive effort in Germany, it only T8'ed in Duelmen once as well. Face it...a card worthy of bannings in every other format is just too weak for us.

Not entirely true Bram, I had T8 in the last 3 competitive tourneys I played in (Mol, 2 Eindhoven)  
Given that only 1 person played such as deck, thats a score of 100% in 3 tourneys.

Nontheless, calling Skullclamp broken in T1 is nonsense. To play Skullclamp, you have to play quite some underpowered cards (Myr Moonvessel anybody). I'd say Skullclamp is easier to break in T2 because the alternatives to those underpowered cards are relatively weaker than the T1 alternatives (Yagmoth's will > Astral Slide)

The deck certainly has its weaknesses, but my performance so far proves beyond any doubt that the deck needs more attention than it's currently getting.

[Bram]

Woops. I overlooked the past Eindhoven results (smart move, since I was there). I don't count Mol towards anything since it was won by a mono-green unpowered land destruction deck Seriously: the power level there is much lower so results may be skewed.

Even so: as I tried to emphasize in my posts, I *am* in fact impressed with your performance with the deck. This is in my opinion mainly due to the fact that Skullclamp is a good T1 card, and you are an excellent player. Duelmen lists and German efforts in general however more or less 'prove'  that it is not broken. Your argument stands like a house. You need to 'pollute' your deck with massively suboptimal cards just to make it work, and it can therefor never be truly 'broken' in our little format. Can we finetune the deck so that it can achieve better results? Most likely, yeah. Can we make it so format distorting that Skullclam would require banning? HELL no.

[Toad]

A Ravager / Disciple deck placed second in Paris in April, too.
http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=138
That does not mean Skullclamp can be broken in Type One. As Ted Knutson said in the article, Skullclamp forces you to run plenty of 1/1 dudes, and 1/1 dudes suck without Skullclamp unless they eat Moxens or switch artifacts.

Whatev. That article is really bad.

[rvs]

I don't count Mol towards anything since it was won by a mono-green unpowered land destruction deck

Wrong again, Mol was won by BW Void from Marco :p
I'm not saying it's any better, but at least it had power. Also, the power level at the Turnhout tourney (where green LD won) was high-powered enough, but the winner got lucky on a few occasions

I didn't mean that particular tourney...just that I don't take tourneys where LD wins not seriously. Even so, it was sort of a joke. Never mind. - Bram

[Jebus]

If people like me didn't write article about Type 1, then all the players in Type 1 would stick to their "this will never get played" mindset and Type 1 would be even less innovative than it is now. I hope there's a few players out there who are open minded and are able to discern new strategies for Type 1, because this post from Mr. Mattieu is stereotypical of an elitist type 1 player who both drives people from their format and thinks he knows everything there is to know about a given format.

Take this article as food for thought, and realize that the cards I listed will probably end up in T1 decks over the next few months.

Ben

What the hell?

Is someone working on a rebuttle article to this?

OH, but don't dare disagree.  Then you're just elitist.

[jpmeyer]

It's a very common technique among well, everyone to antagonize Type 1 players if you want to to get them to write about something.

[Toad]

because this post from Mr. Mattieu is stereotypical of an elitist type 1 player who both drives people from their format and thinks he knows everything there is to know about a given format.

Damn he can't even spell my first name right. Suckah :<

[The Atog Lord]

JP raises a very interesting issue. The way I see it, we as a community have two potential responses: respond, or not respond.

Let’s suppose that we write a response. Now, Ben has become a though-provoking person who has started a deep Magic dialog. And no matter what we say or how correct we are, we certainly won’t convince everyone that we are right

But suppose we did not respond. Then, Ben’s irrelevance is multiplied tenfold as he can’t even get the usually vocal Type One community to respond to his incendiary article. We look like we have taken the higher ground, and we don’t get involved in what would no doubt become a rancorous but ultimately fruitless argument.

Also, consider things from the perspective of the editor who must ultimately approve articles for Star City. It is very likely that, as JP implied, this article was approved in the hope that it would start a discussion and draw more people to the site. Perhaps, rather, if the response to the article were silence, an editor would be less eager in the future to publish such an article.

Just my $.02

[Lockdown]

The solution is clearly not to respond by writing an article but by egging his house .  Typical Southern Virginian.  NoVa should seceed and form it's own state.  Like West Virginia, but better .

And I hate to break it to everyone, but Mr. Bleiweiss is mad correct. The level of play at Type 1 events is soooooooooooo far below the other formats. Really. And the playtesting issue that he brings up is a really important one, too. See Long.dec for this:

Type 1 players: Waaaaaaaah! I can't go off with this!
Buehler: Wow, I'm killing on turn 1 2/3s of the time

Let's face it: if Type 1 players were good, Standstill would not see play. Standstill was decks did well at Regionals 2002, but once the pros showed how easy it was to play around at GP Milwaukee, it hasn't shown up in any other constructed format since...except Type 1.

I am not quite sure of what to make of JP's response here... Of course Standstill's should be played.  I mean come on, everybody knows to break it on their own main phases .

[Dr. Sylvan]

This is what I said in the thread.

I was offended by this article. Instead of being constructively negative (like when JP makes fun of everyone for being retarded and playing Standstill or Suicide Black), Mr. Bleiweiss took a lot of cheap shots and didn't recognize why things are the way they are in Type One.

Like it or not, we're massively outnumbered by other formats, and the other formats are worth way more money when you're winning. Comparing GenCon to the Pro Tour is utterly stupid, when it should instead be compared to a large PTQ. SliverKing is right on to call him on this. There is merit in saying that Type One players suck. I'm one of the many who do. I would have been less offended had the article recognized that we're a growing format, and obviously we haven't reached the level of competitiveness of formats with many times the prize support. Let's not forget that this is a format where, even in most parts of the US, there's borderline NO significant tournaments to go to, EVER. Clearly we haven't got the same player pool as any format currently on the Tour.

I also was struck by the ignorance of how innovation works in Type One: there isn't a shortage, there's a superabundance. People keep trying horrible, horrible cards in their decks, and Top 8ing with many that I consider to be "WTF?"-worthy. Practically everyone and his brother wants to find the next hot tech and throw it into some deck, if not try to start their own archetype (I've had to lock threads about WHIP SILK infinite combos). I have no doubt in my mind that people will be falling all over each other to break these cards. And of course they won't be doing it as well as Pros would, because, well, I already went there. If there was a PT for Type One, I would expect the Pros to ignore the set almost completely, and have a level of brokenness not dissimilar to PT Rome '98. There would be no All Suns Dawn played, of that I have ZERO doubt. Sweet merciful crap, man, we still get to play with Yawgmoth's Will in this format!

I think Knutson published this hoping to get Carl Winter to write an article, and I'm not kidding. I was highly disappointed, and think this was the least constructive thing published on StarCity that I've clicked on this year. Way to make broad generalizations and accusations without any attempt to explore causation, Ben.

Rich has the right idea here. I don't even think I'm going to mention it in my next article. I suggest that this go no further than the forum thread on SCG and this discussion of how much Ben Bleiweiss is an idiot. (I mean, does the man never learn his lesson? First, white in Extended. Now All Suns Dawn in the Yawgmoth's Will format? WEAK.)

As you can see, my post didn't even begin to get into his failure to understand that combo decks have to compete with benchmarks, and in this case, our benchmarks are friggin' Belcher, Draw7, TPS, and Dragon. If he thinks we're so utterly retarded, why doesn't he give us a suggestion of a deck that's faster or for some reason better than these? Man, for serious, two card combos are not impressive. (In case you can't tell, Bleiweiss has me in my first Intarweb Berserker Rage since WW T8ed Dulmen.)

[mrieff]

If Bram would write a rebuttle article based on his first post, he could destroy that nonsense article without investing too much extra time.

And thanks for the compliments!

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

I hate it how people keep on saying that for various different reasons Type One players are on a lower skill class then Pro Tour players generally.  That’s complete garbage.  I think that we give these "Pro" players too much credit, besides a few of them most of them are now ex-pros who are garbage now and are struggling to make the tour again.  We play a laid back format for many reasons.

Since vintage doesn't have the same amount of support then other formats, we play for different reasons.  Yea we want to win stuff, but for the most part we play to have fun, hang out with people we know, etc.  Also with the enjoyment aspect of vintage, some people are prone to not play the best deck in the format but instead play something that is fun for them.  So yea we have competition, but that’s only a small factor in the many reasons why we play this format.  If I wanted to make money, hell I would buy myself a play set of ravagers and go play FNMs and GPs and PTQs.  So we might see kobold/clamp being played, or white weenie, or other decks, but this isn't a sign that we aren't taking advantage of our card pool, or that we aren't good, it’s just a sign that we are doing what we want and that we are having fun.

[PucktheCat]

If I wanted to make money, hell I would buy myself a play set of ravagers and go play FNMs and GPs and PTQs.

Or, you know, get a job.

The article itself has some good points (not many new ones) and some bad points.  I do get the impression that Ben greatly misunderstands the impact of the huge Vintage card pool though.  Salvager is just NOT a good card in Vintage.

Leo

[TracerBullet]

How we win on this- Challenge Ben, or some single person appointed by Ben, to break the format, preferrably using one of the cards he thinks is soo good.  Tell him he, or his chosen apprentice, must place in the Top8 at GenCon's big T1 tourney, and if he does so, somebody will eat a hat or something.  Something absurd that'll get people's attention.


The point is, I think both sides in this argument are at a point where they need to put up, or shut up, and a big, brazen, WWF style challenge is the way to do it while keeping it fun.

Of course, he could always just turn the challenge down, and we could have a name-calling field day...


Edit- Come to think of it, Carl, as far as challengers go, you fit the bill quite perfectly...

[Ric_Flair]

I too was offended by the article, but really it is BEN BLEIWEISS.  If Randy Buehler, Mark Rosewater, or Mike Flores had written this article then I would be more likely to take it seriously.  But the article was written by BEN BLEIWEISS.  His picture on Star City is what my brain looks like after trying to sort through is AWFUL logic and crappy arguments.  

The other problem here is one of rarified air.  If one of us responds it will likely be an intelligent response.  As such only the rest of us will get it.  Some of the comments in the SCG forums about the letter Phil and I wrote were just mind-bogglingly stupid.  And while they may taint us as "nerds of the nerds" I am not sure what firing back with intelligence, wit, and vitriole will accomplish.  In other words, if you get in a poop throwing war with a monkey, they will likely think it is food.

[Dr. Sylvan]

I simply couldn't let his asinine forum thread go undefeated.

BB said: "Several other Type 1 players left unconstructive posts basically flaming my article. They are not doing a good job growing their community. Instead, they are chasing off people who might be used to increase the number of parties interested in Type 1."

Is this aimed at me? If it is, I'm gonna take issue with it; I felt I stayed pretty clean and avoided ad hominem fallacies.

I would argue that at this point, there is more money to be made playing T1 across the US in non-PTQ level events (below the PTQ level) than in other formats ? all it takes is winning one Black Lotus to equal winning about 20-30 weeks worth of FNM?s or 15-20 flights of pre-releases. On the east coast, there are an abundance of Type 1 tournaments right now.

There's about a half dozen to ten tournaments with $100+ prizes per month in the Northeastern US, which has a much higher concentration of these than anywhere else on the continent. The total for Europe is probably around a dozen tournaments that size per month, too. (I actually don't have precise data, I only write about 50+ player events, which are now happening about 7-9/mo. globally.) I would be fascinated to see a comparison between those less than two dozen tournies and the total sanctioned play of PT formats, but really this is a red herring. My point wasn't about sub-PTQ level play, it was exclusively about Premiere events and how their support creates greater incentives to invest time and effort in fine-tuning decks and strategies for those PT formats. This structured support is what creates the difference...not a diffuse group of FNMs.

As to the whole "lack of support" critique, Type One players have lavishly doled out praise to R&D, particularly over the last year. We don't accuse them of not improving, because in many respects this is the golden age of Magic in general and Type One in particular. In fact, I don't think I've heard an ill word spoken about Mark Rosewater in months, and at one point there was a TMD thread with so many Moderators giving him props that I emailed MaRo a link to it. The idea that we do nothing but whine is an outdated misconception. I would also submit that we have not whined significantly about how we should have more DCI prize support. We're pretty happy to organize our own tournaments (and in N. America, at least, we organize them sans the DCI...) and provide our own prize support, so long as we get GenCon. I don't even think we're too bitter about the Invitational not including us anymore. My theory, which I have expoused publicly in the past, is that if attendance at the GenCon Champs rises dramatically, they'll add a second event somewhere on the annual calendar of their own volition. I won't lobby for it unless I feel it's a move they're ignoring when there's ample evidence that they should pursue it. I'm just not sure where this idea that we're "the whiny format" is coming from.

Oh, and the difference between 5C and T1 is that 5C functions completely outside ordinary Magic, whereas Type One is a DCI-sanctioned and regulated format. It should be expected, then, that you'll here a lot more about Type One policy debate than about 5C, because it's (a) the format which needs the most regulation, as it is constantly on the edge of broken, (b) controlled by a distant authority rather than a close one. Whereas many 5C players who are concerned about policy may personally know people on the rules commission, in Type One all we can do is email the DCI or an R&D member, with little hope of reply. They've told us to write articles about our concerns, so we do. Simple as that.

"[...]they pawned this supposed ?lack of support? as a rationalization for Type 1 players not doing enough to promote their own community."

I find any argument that Type One players aren't doing enough to support their community, when in fact Rakso/JP/Smmenen/Avi/Carl/myself are at least 10% (probably more like 20%) of SCG frontpage space, and Type One players all over the place are trying to start up regular tournaments in their area, and Steve O'Connell runs TheManaDrain.com out of his own pocket so that people can announce their tournaments and discuss their ideas... anyway, yeah, we're pulling our weight and working pretty hard, thanks. Hopefully you don't mind that I'm not a disinterested observer when making that assessment, but I think it's pretty obvious that for a group still so small, we're pulling off pretty stellar results.

I was gonna completely own your analogy of All Suns Dawn to YawgWill, but that was taken care of. Skeletal Scrying > Regrowth > All Suns Dawn, and there's only very very narrow circumstances which would defy that.

TracerBullet: Such a challenge would receive the answer that "Oh, I can't do it, but [Pro X] could." It would be fruitless unless we think Ben's get some kind of influence with the pros.

Tony's right, this is Ben Bleiweiss, the man who couldn't keep a writing gig on mtg.com because of gross ineptitude. My anger is definitely sticking to the parallel forum threads.

EDIT: I have been informed by BB that this is incorrect.

I couldn't keep a job on MTG.com because my articles were always late. Their quality was not an issue. I was invited back to write several guest pieces and did full time Sideboard reporting until my full time job with SCG.com took over, at which point I had no time to write for MTG.com. Again, get your facts straight before you resort to slander.

My mistake, and apologies.

[Smmenen]

My advice to people: don't let Ben get to you.

I've seen how he handled Oscar and Ben is a reasonable person.  

I think he is trying to stimulate debate and conversation - and you well fed into his plan nicely.  I found the article interesting, but took most of it with a grain of salt and have absolutely no desire or need really to make any sort of reply.  

Like I said, don't let it get to you.

Steve Menendian

[rvs]

Steve: that doesn't mean that it doesn't reflect badly on SCG.

[Jebus]

Steve: that doesn't mean that it doesn't reflect badly on SCG.

Indeed.  

I'm still also a little angry about his cheap shot at the DCI last week.

[Saucemaster]

How we win on this- Challenge Ben, or some single person appointed by Ben, to break the format, preferrably using one of the cards he thinks is soo good.  Tell him he, or his chosen apprentice, must place in the Top8 at GenCon's big T1 tourney, and if he does so, somebody will eat a hat or something.  Something absurd that'll get people's attention.

Or one of our SCG featured writers could just challenge him to write 1,000 words about each card that he thought was broken that does not in fact see any significant play, and that they'd write 1,000 words about each card they disagree with that DOES see play.  I would think that the Pavlovian response alone would be immensely satisfying.

[Dr. Sylvan]

How we win on this- Challenge Ben, or some single person appointed by Ben, to break the format, preferrably using one of the cards he thinks is soo good.  Tell him he, or his chosen apprentice, must place in the Top8 at GenCon's big T1 tourney, and if he does so, somebody will eat a hat or something.  Something absurd that'll get people's attention.

Or one of our SCG featured writers could just challenge him to write 1,000 words about each card that he thought was broken that does not in fact see any significant play, and that they'd write 1,000 words about each card they disagree with that DOES see play.  I would think that the Pavlovian response alone would be immensely satisfying.

I nominate myself, as the man who does all the "what sees play" stuff. :) When the July data rolls in and most of his card picks are totally absent, I will include a couple of sentences about Bleiweiss being off his rocker. It will feel like sweet, delicious victory.

[Saucemaster]

I nominate myself, as the man who does all the "what sees play" stuff. When the July data rolls in and most of his card picks are totally absent, I will include a couple of sentences about Bleiweiss being off his rocker. It will feel like sweet, delicious victory.

I don't actually think it'd be worth the time and effort--and honestly, while I was kind of vaguely annoyed that Bleiweiss obviously doesn't know much about Type 1 but nevertheless felt entitled to speak as if he had some authority, he had a number of valid points.  He couched them in hyperbole, but they were still pretty accurate.

He's totally wrong about some of the cards he evaluated, though, and I'd really like to see him have to publicly eat his words AGAIN based on ANOTHER bad set review just because I'm sadistic like that.  Some people never learn, and they must be punished.  

[st00mie]

I think we should just ignore the silly bitch.  He's obviously clueless, or driven by ulterior motives (such as stimulating debate/innovation and being put on a pedestal).  He doesn't deserve any sort of response whatsoever.

Besides, we're all too busy doing things like playtesting and innovating to pay attention to him anyway.

[Eastman]

You know it isn't like he's wrong with his quips. It seems your issues are more with his jibing at us then they are with a few questionable calls on card playability.  We aren't that good. If there is one thing our format has, it is room for quite a bit of improvement.


If this community spent half the time innovating and testing that they do lurking in mIRC and discussing assanine community issues (such as this one) we'd be months ahead of where we are now in development.

[wicketsnatcher]

So here I was reading through this post thinking up my own reply, and lo and behold, Eastman goes and says pretty much everything I wanted to say.  I just wanted to express some support on the other side of things too.

[Mykeatog]

So like... this guy doesn't have enough money to buy a type 1 card?

That's fine.

Let him cry.

As a matter of fact, someone give him one of the tissues that you are all using.

[kl0wn]

 
The other problem here is one of rarified air.  If one of us responds it will likely be an intelligent response.  As such only the rest of us will get it.  Some of the comments in the SCG forums about the letter Phil and I wrote were just mind-bogglingly stupid.  And while they may taint us as "nerds of the nerds" I am not sure what firing back with intelligence, wit, and vitriole will accomplish.  In other words, if you get in a poop throwing war with a monkey, they will likely think it is food.

This looks like a job for Mr. Awesome!

*turns on the Awesome Signal*

[rvs]

This looks like a job for Mr. Awesome!

*turns on the Awesome Signal*

Does that mean we're getting another super-article from mr. Bryce?

[kl0wn]

Does that mean we're getting another super-article from mr. Bryce?

Nah, I stopped writing articles a long time ago. It got to the point where any tournament report I started writing ended up being like 10 pages before even leaving New York and every strategy article ended up repeating "OH MY GOD DO YOU PEOPLE SUCK!!".

However, Mr. Awesome may write something because he's a superhero and not a nihilist like me.