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Author Topic: Magic is an evil game...  (Read 7512 times)
OPColby
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« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2004, 11:01:57 pm »

Thank you, Ephraim, for that response.

You've expanded upon much about what the scientific community wants you to believe concerning CFC's.

The fact of the matter is, if you actually research what happens, indeed the Chlorotrifluoromethane is split by solar radiation into a trifluorocarbon radical and a chlorine radical, but not much is known about what happens after that.

As for the 'laboratories,' this experiment was only done a few times in ONE laboratory with no control, yet it was pitched to the government as fact, and so our senators bought it.

The post I made was simply an allusion as to how people don't have common sense when it comes to scientific reasonings.  Science does not defy reason, it is in accord with it, and it's brother logic.
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Jacob Orlove
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« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2004, 11:25:22 pm »

Pre-new testament is easy--you just have to look at the ancient greeks. Homer's Odessy is the oldest example that springs to mind. And there's plenty of stuff in China that easily predates Moses.

As for evolution, you have to separate it into two different types: short-term and long term. Short term deals with minor changes within a species, such as an insect changing color to match a new environment. This type of evolution has been demonstrated in fully repeatable scientific experiments (because some insects have life cycles on the order of days). Arguing that it doesn't exist is utter nonsense.

Long-term evolution, however, where one species actually changes into another, is a more complex phenomenon. Current scientific understanding is that this is not the gradual process envisioned by darwin. Instead, it takes mere thousands of years for the actual shift to occur--although gradual changes do build up to the shifts. If you look at the gaps in the fossil record, it's easy to see why we don't have many fossils of animals "in transition"--they're ridiculously rare. However, more modern evolution (specifically, the progression up to Homo Sapiens), is documented enough that I find it hard to believe anyone could doubt that we evolved from a more primitive ancestor.

And I'm not even going to get into the 2nd law of thermodynamics--any belief that its application is not universal stems from a complete misunderstanding of what the law actually says.

Quote
That is the bible, my friends. And until you read it, you will never understand why Christians are different from everyone else.

I've read it, but you'd have to take a lot of it pretty literally to be different from "everyone else".  And it just seems that even if it was written by divinely inspired men, the divine would have couched it in terms that people two thousand years ago could understand. Assuming that everything it says is literally is extreme at best. (As an aside, this is my general approach to the Torah, which I do believe in; I look at the message, not the exact situations used to convey that message).

Finally, I'd like to end with just one question for you: is there any kind of observation which, if it were seen, would change your beliefs in creationism?
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Ephraim
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« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2004, 11:26:40 pm »

Colby, if this were a complicated reaction, I'd accept that the lack of experimentation might render it less credible. However, as an aspiring member of the aforementioned scientific community (and a devout Christian, before you go making insulting claims that I have a vested interest in upholding the claims of the scientific community), I am fully aware of the principles at work behind this reaction. It isn't much different from the reactions governing the halogenation of methane, perhaps the first reaction taught to students of organic chemistry. The chemistry going on in this reaction isn't far out. It's run-of-the-mill. If you think that it's unreasonable to draw a conclusion from both experimental data (albeit limited experimental data) and sound, tried-and-true theory then I'd like to know what sort of evidence you would trust.
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AIcOPed
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« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2004, 12:18:14 am »

The environmentalists in the sevemties warned of global cooling (look it up) because the earth had cooled down by a couple of degrees and they use the same arguements made by the people that use them today, but w/ global warming.

OPCOLBY:

I agree w/ what you said about mt st helens. i just was looking into that the other day. also some of the trees that exploded off the mountain landed in a nearbylake (spirit lake) as they absorbed water at different rates based on type of tree the all sunk into the sediment layer in the waters at different depths and it looks just like the fossil layers found in other parts of the world.

They recently discovered a petrified cowboy boot, so I guess cowboys are MILLIONS of years old.

Another thing to point out about the "MISSING LINK" it should be called "All of the links are missing". There is not one link of fish to beaver or whatever in any museum. I went to the smithsonian in DC and they had an evolution proof. It was basically this horse getting bigger over the course of millions of years. It did not grow wings stand on two feet or anything different like teleport. It grew taller.


Yes, I realize that sexual from asexual does not woprk exactly as I referenced, it was an analogy.

for example, which came first the immune system or the need for one?

which came first dna or rna which transports the dna to where the dna needs to go?

how long did it take arms to grow from fins and what were there use in the millions of years in between?

were there all of these half armed half finned things wasting time and energy supporting useless appendages?

There are many other great questions.I encourage everyone to read Darwin's Black Box. He "disproves" evolution on the tenets that every living thing has a certain amount of things that are all vital and it could not live w/o any one of them. the best example for simplicity is a mousetrap. all of the parts are needed. w/o the spring it is useless. w/o the pin it is useless, etc.

How could it evlove. it could not. it was made. If it is easy for us to understand that a mouse trap was made, why do we think that humans were not made but evolved over millions of years.

There is another story of a watchmaker that basically shows the detail that is put into making a watch that was found on the ground. the reciepient knew the watch must have had a master watchmaker. then there is the same story told from the evolutionists point of view that the watch must have at one point just been gold which landed in a circular crevice shaped like a watchback and colloed and then metal fell into the middle of it, and many years later gears were made, and then sand was heated and cooled to form a glass face plate and so on. this is absurd. I will stop there. It takes faith to believe in evolution.
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but then again I think rain is wet, so who am I to judge?
Jacob Orlove
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« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2004, 12:40:52 am »

Quote
for example, which came first the immune system or the need for one?

which came first dna or rna which transports the dna to where the dna needs to go?

how long did it take arms to grow from fins and what were there use in the millions of years in between?

These are all common misconceptions. RNA came first, obviously, because simple prokaryotes don't even bother with DNA; they just have RNA. DNA evolved out of RNA.

For the immune system, you have to look back again at those prokaryotes and eukaryotes. They used protein markers to differentiate their various internal "parts", and broke down anything else that they "ate". As the molecules got "bigger" (ie, more complex), so did their immune systems.

Fins don't work on dry land. Fish developed stronger fins to scoot across land (mudskippers still do this today). Eventually, these fish started spending more and more time out of water, becoming primitive amphibians. These evolved into reptiles, and from there, eventually into human beings. Keep in mind that this took more years than people can really comprehend (our brains just aren't built to handle big numbers).

Now, as for that watchmaker; how do you supposed the watch was designed in the first place? Someone took a less complicated watch, and added gears to it. Before that, you had pendulum based clocks. And long before that, water clocks and hourglasses. The watch evolved too. When you consider the small number of parts, though, each "evolution" seems like a huge jump--but only a few peices changed each time.

As for the mousetrap, well, earlier mousetraps may have been more complex. Evolution can remove unnecessary parts as well as add them--just look at deep cave creatures that never see light, and, as a consequence, no longer need eyes.

The only stuff I can find about Mt. St. Helens is some random personal geocities sites. Nothing verifiable. Perhaps you could link me?
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AIcOPed
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« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2004, 03:12:16 am »

http://www.drdino.com/QandA/index.jsp?varFolder=DinosaursAndFossils&varPage=PolystrateFossils.jsp


http://www.otherside.net/sthelen.html


These are two quick links that I found concerning that specific issue.
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but then again I think rain is wet, so who am I to judge?
dandan
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« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2004, 06:44:37 am »

I admit defeat, I guess the Earth really is flat after all.
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Malhavoc
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« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2004, 08:35:05 am »

Quote from: dandan
I admit defeat, I guess the Earth really is flat after all.


 :lol:  :lol:

Nice shot!

Anyway, as long as people like these:

http://www.chick.com/reading/books/174/evolvex.asp

Also write something like this:

http://www.chick.com/reading/books/204/0204_10.asp

They deserve to not being listened at all...  Rolling Eyes

I've tried in the past to talk calmy and deeply to people claiming such non-sense things as creationism, but there is no sense in these discussions: we COULD change our mind since we don't think what we say IS right, but only that it's the best explanation we know. But they would NEVER change their mind 'cause they think it's TRUE. Where is the socratic dialogue? Nowhere.
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dicemanx
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« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2004, 08:56:59 am »

It rained last night.

As I stepped outside, I had an epiphany as I espied a puddle of water. I noticed, much to my disbelief, that the shape of the water had the *exact* same shape as the hole it was filling. This is too much of a coincidence - there

CLEARLY

must have been some form of divine intervention. It's only logical. It's only logical that we believe in some almightly creator that's responsible for everything that we don't understand, or that can account for everything that clearly defies all probablity.


I attend church this Sunday Smile.
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Jacob Orlove
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« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2004, 11:25:39 am »

Quote from: AIcOPed


http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/polystrate/trees.html
That answers the "polystrate" trees, the whale, and the coal. With real sources, I might add.

As for the fossil dating, just check out http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD013_1.html.

That site (and its affiliates) are a great resource for actual documentation and evidence for both sides of this debate.
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Razvan
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« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2004, 11:39:19 am »

Peter... it didn't rain last night... so the epiphany was more screwed up than you think Wink .

Hehe.

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's only logical that we believe in some almightly creator that's responsible for everything that we don't understand, or that can account for everything that clearly defies all probablity.


Okay, maybe this will spark something.

First law of thermodynamics states that in a closed system, nothing can be created or destroyed, only transformed, right?

Now, let's assume that the universe is a closed system (infinite, but closed). In this case, if nothing can be created or destroyed, something must have always existed. How about that, could that have been God?

If the universe is open... well, then I need to think for a bit... but that creates a whole new set of problems...
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PucktheCat
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« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2004, 11:54:01 am »

All of the arguments that are being advanced in this thread: Mt. St. Helens, the ozone layer, etc., don't really seem to do anything to advance the cause of religion.  All of them are relying on (bad) arguments from (bad) evidence.  Disproving science, unlikely as it is, doesn't make religion any more plausible.

Likewise the arguments that life must have a intelligent designer don't seem to do much.  That designer needn't be divine.  Even if the designer is supernatural, how do we know that he/she/it is worth worshiping?  Or that she inspired the bible?

Now there is a lot of debate that can go on about evolution, but I don't want anyone to get confused into thinking that even if we found out tomorrow that there was an international consipiricy to push misguided evolution theory on the population that would make God's existence any more (or less) likely than it is now.

Leo
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dicemanx
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« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2004, 04:36:33 pm »

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Yes, I realize that sexual from asexual does not woprk exactly as I referenced, it was an analogy.


An analogy to what? You're backpedalling, because you posed a question borne out of ignorance, but when it was explained to you, you pass it off as "analogy".

Quote

for example, which came first the immune system or the need for one?


To understand the complex, we must understand the simple first. You are marvelling at the complexity, and because you do not understand how it could come to be or the steps that could play a role, you dismiss "evolution".

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which came first dna or rna which transports the dna to where the dna needs to go?


Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here. I know the gist of it though - you are marvelling at the complexity here and wonder how it could come to be.


Quote

how long did it take arms to grow from fins and what were there use in the millions of years in between?

were there all of these half armed half finned things wasting time and energy supporting useless appendages?


OK, to answer this question (and the immunity question above), lets take a look at the possible steps involved. These are steps that are based on both the fossil record and our understanding of both evolutionary forces and mechanisms of change, which are possible to reproduce quite easily in the lab.

First, the basics:

1. Mechanisms of change: Certain types of mutation in the DNA can result in phenotypic changes. Most of these changes are meaningless, but those that affect the fitness of the organism (fitness=the ability to produce viable offspring) can be subject to selection pressures. Mutation is the only way DNA itself can be altered, although novel phenotypes can also arise through recombination - exchange of DNA (such as meiotic recombination in meiosis I). Note that for a mutant phenotype to manifest itself, it must originate in the parent's germ line and be passed on to the offspring. The offspring is subject to the selection pressure.

2. Selection pressure: Selection for or against individuals that have certain phenotypes that give them an advantage or disadvantage in terms of fitness compared to other individuals. This pressure could be environmental, sexual, etc.

OK, here's a way that it could work using one of your queries. Long ago, marine dwelling organisms, some which had structures analogous to "fins", developed mutations that allowed them to spend brief periods of time on land. To accomplish this, they would require fins for the mobility on land; some individuals developed mutations increasing fin strength for land locomotion. The marine population might have been subject to certain pressures: shortage of food, increased predation, etc. This selected for the individuals that were able to briefly evade predators on land or forage for food there, and thus the individuals with such a favorable characteristic would outcompete those individuals without sufficiently strong fins. Then, perhaps further pressures selected for individuals that could survive on land longer. It would be beneficial for such individuals to develop better means of locomotion. So, incementally, over a *very* long period of time (possibly millions of years), there was an accumulation of mutations, which was selected for, which slowly transformed the fin into something more useful for land locomotion. This was a gradual process, and involved "fine-tuning".

Once you understand how changes are possible, and the fact that they happen incrementally, you can account for increasing levels of complexity. This will even answer your question about how immunity developed. Do not look at the finished product and marvel at how impossible it is to evolve something like that. The evolution of everything can be broken down into tiny steps, and although we have huge gaps in the fossil record that prevent us from discovering *exactly* how things came about, we can nevertheless offer very simple explanations of how they *could* come about.

EDIT: Here's a fantastic link to some info that can help clarify many things:

http://www4.tpgi.com.au/users/jes999/1.htm

Chapters 9-10 are particularly interesting with respect to the origins of life, and might answer some questions for you.





Quote
There is another story of a watchmaker that basically shows the detail that is put into making a watch that was found on the ground. the reciepient knew the watch must have had a master watchmaker. then there is the same story told from the evolutionists point of view that the watch must have at one point just been gold which landed in a circular crevice shaped like a watchback and colloed and then metal fell into the middle of it, and many years later gears were made, and then sand was heated and cooled to form a glass face plate and so on. this is absurd.


The only thing absurd here is that you would somehow connect this with the process of evolution. The analogy here is *terrible*.
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Ivantheterrible
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« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2004, 09:29:50 pm »

Strangly enough that Chirstian guys porphcy didn't come true. IT is ironic that if anything the Christians are the one leading the world on a Highway to hell right now well magic is corrupting many less minds then the Christians or today.

The Christians of today are like the mafia. Theres some old guy (the christians) that needs muscel to help them take back the lands that ( by a worthless book) they have been told belong to them. They use the world poliece (in this case the ignorant but strong U.S.) to muscell everyone else.

Christians are ruining the world while magic is just brinnging joy to many of its followers aswell as to the capitilist that make so much money off this game.  

My final verdict Chirstians have fucked up the world while magic has caused no visable damage.

And OPcolboy How can you say that this guy has a good heart. HE is following the bible. Are you aware that the bible says homwsexuality is a sin. Do you further know that homesexuallity is an innate human sexual feeling (not for all but for many) and therefor the bible once again argues with science and you know what happens then SCIENCE ALWAYS WINS BECAUSE IT HAS EVIDENCE BACKING IT UP.

But hey what do I know. I am just an upset, left wing, communist,anti all religion ideals dude who will probably be struck down by the hand of god or will go to hell on judgemnet day. RIGHT.
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Kowal
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« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2004, 10:02:50 pm »

I've been waiting for an excuse to lock this for days.[/color]
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