Optimizing Hulk for the summer - A place to start?

[Eastman]

Hulk needs no introduction. I won't explain why it is prudent to try and find the best build for this summer's meta (it's obvious)

So the task at hand is as the thread title implies, optimizing Hulk.

But how do we do that?

Fortunately the answer to that question is pretty straightforward - we make a decklist!

There are certain components that I won't play Hulk without:
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Duress (the third is better than Mind Twist for purposes of consistency)
4 Brainstorm
4 AK
2 Intuition
2 Deep Analysis
1 Merchant Scroll

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Cunning Wish (this isn't set in stone, but for now lets not bicker about that)
1 Demonic
3 Psychatog

23-24 Mana Sources including at least:
7 Pieces of artifact acceleration
(which oneS?)
3+ U. Sea
2+ Trop Island
4+ Blue Fetch
1+ Island
1 LoA (Frankly, not running this is stupid.)


This only leaves about 5 slots for 'optimization' (3 spells, 2 lands)

There are two questions that need to be answered before we can figure out exactly what we're running, they are:


1. Should we use 3 or 4 colors?
2. Should we build to maximize speed or control?


I like to look at what's going in the deck before I decide if a color splash is worth it, so lets move on to

The second question, here are some examples

Of speedy cards
Gush
Vampiric Tutor
Fastbond
FoF


Of control cards:
Duress number 3 and 4
More maindeck Deep Anal
Pernicious Deed
Gorilla Shaman
Fire/Ice


Now I'd like you all to do some discussing here, because I'm not quite sure exactly what we want to be playing (speed or control)

I FOR ONE BELIEVE HULK'S STRENGTH IS AN ABILITY TO BE BOTH and making it overtly one way or another is a bastardization and will NOT be beneficial (although in some simple metas it is)

So I think a mix of the speedy cards and the control cards is appropriate. The best control cards right now are Pernicious Deed and Gorilla Shaman so lets put those on the list

1 Pernicious Deed
1 Gorilla Shaman

We'll do 'speed' two favors as well, we'll add the maindeck gush (some might want fof, I'd rather wish for it)

1 gush

and we'll keep the list to 23 mana, using the speedy mana crypt as one of our artifact accelerants.

Because we want to use Gorilla Shaman, we'll need a minor red splash. Considering the strength red brings to a board I'd say it's worth it.

The resulting decklist looks like this:

Control Elements:
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Duress
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Gorilla Shaman

Engine:
4 Brainstorm
4 AK
2 Intuition
2 Deep Analysis

Broken Clutter:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic tutor
1 Gush
1 Merchant Scroll

Psychatogs get their own section
3 Psychatog

So do wishes
3 Cunning Wish (this isn't set in stone, but for now lets not bicker about that)


23 Mana
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 LoA (Frankly, not running this is stupid.)


Now, how about the sideboard?

What Wish targets are considered required?
Berserk
Red Elemental Blast (even if you listen to More Fling and run DA to bring in, you probably need one to wish for)
Blue Elemental Blast
Oxidize (I think the cheapest Artifact removal is a must have, myself)
Other Artifact Removal (is Naturalize the only choice without a maindeck Deed?)
Fact or Fiction (necessary, right? Anyone try to get by without this?)
Coffin Purge
Fire/Ice (this was cut for Firestorm a few times, but it really seems to me that Firestorm should be run in addition to this or not at all)

Some other wish targets:
Firestorm (strong)
Vampiric Tutor (very nice to have, but a luxery much of the time)
More Artifact Removal (some builds run three)
Hurkyl's Recall (I thought this was older tech, but it Azhrei apparently still likes it)
Snuff Out (would definatly make a 20 card sb, but hard to fit in a 15 card one)

What are the cards that actually get sided in? I have seen these:
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Deep Analysis (making four total post sb)
1 Gorilla Shaman
3 Ground Seal (brought in against welders and dragons)

And there we have a potential optimized Hulk list!

Now I don't pretend that this is actually optimal

HERE IS
What I'd like you all to do: go through my discussion and pick out pieces and argue about the logic, or perhaps expound on things. I'll edit good comments into the thread. Eventually we'll have some idea how we want the deck to look. Then we can work on the sideboard.

If I haven't made myself clear, this is a thread where I want to hear all your thoughts and comments on everything to do with Hulk right now.

[Lord of the Goats]

personally i don't like your mana base.  2 volcanics is a bit iffy imo with many hulk decks useing things such as firestorm, fire/ice, shaman, and especially artifact mutation the additional volcanic is very important when facing wastes.

depending on your metagame i could see cutting one of 3 cards to fit this in. 1) the island- clearly only if you never see bloodmoon
2) a fetch land- in theory you want to keep this if you see a lot of wastes
3 ) loa- amazing card, yes... but it blows in a lot of matchups where wastes are present and you're under presure.

so if you see wastes, not running loa is a very reasonable option.  i'd make room for the 3rd volcanic.

[Klep]

Mystical Tutor is not a necessary card for this deck.  There are situations where it can help, but it isn't like slower control decks where you are willing to wait a turn for your answer.  Hulk wants to win RIGHT NOW, and as a result, Mystical is a bit slow.  

A much better card is Intuition #3.  The third Intuition is amazing.  With it, you see Intuition early more frequently and more reliably.  Having played with it, I now would not play without it.  

It's possible that a third Volcanic is more important than a third Tropical.  Barring Deed or Artifact Mutation, you don't need Green until you're going to win whereas you'll want to see Red throughout the course of the game so you can reliably cast Gorilla Shaman or much of your sideboard tech.

EDIT: Library is simply uncuttable.  The card advantage it provides in control matchups, particularly the mirror,  is vitally important to this deck, and Eastman is right to say you're stupid to not play with it.

[PucktheCat]

I have been testing the above list with these changes:

-1 Gush
-1 Mystical Tutor
+1 Sol Ring
+1 Duress/Merchant Scroll/Intuition

I don't like Mystical or Gush because they are weak against Control.  Given the emerging metagame right now that seems like a Bad Thing (tm).  As you can see, I am not entirely sure what should go in its place.

I have liked running all 8 artifact mana.  I know that many here disagree with that.  Rather than repeat myself, those who are interested in my reasoning on this point can go here: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=287002&highlight=#287002.*  Sol Ring is a speed card that doesn't hurt against control.

I think Merchant Scroll is given too little credit these days.  A 3rd Intuition is good but lets run the comparison:

1.  Merchant Scroll is one of the best cards in the deck first turn with a Mox.  Obvious, but true.

2.  Merchant Scroll is better than Intuition after you have seen the first Intuition.  It is especially good when it gets you Cunning Wish for Berserk and ends the game.

3.  Merchant Scroll is competitive with Intuition turns 2-3.  Intuition for AK draws three cards for five mana and sets up a later AK for four.  Merchant Scroll for Ancestral draws you three for three, but doesn't set up a later AK.

4.  Merchant Scroll is worse than Intuition when you use it to fetch Intuition.  However, it may not always be relevantly worse, particularly when you have some drain mana.

Basically, it seems like the third Intuition dramatically increases your chances of early draw but weakens your late game.  Merchant Scroll taps a under-utilized resource in the deck (Ancestral) to increase your draw early and improve your deck late.

That being said, I switch around all the time between the three cards I listed.  Going down to 2 Duress seems wrong, but it probably is inevitable.

Should this thread contain some sideboard discussion, or is that best left for someplace else?

If we decide to do it here my question is:

Firestorm, Fire/Ice or both?

Leo

*One point I didn't make explicitly in that post, but bears mentioning.  Any time you cast a spell with a colorless mana in its cost on your main phase or have a colorless mana available on your main phase Sol Ring's casting cost becomes effectively irrelevant.

[DavidHernandez]

We'll do 'speed' two favors as well, we'll add the maindeck gush (some might want fof, I'd rather wish for it)

I think you could run both the Gush and the FoF main, and remove the Mystical Tutor.  Tutor isn't as strong here as it is in GAT.

A third intuition seems like a lot. I think another Duress is stronger.

Dave.

[Klep]

This is Hulk. What late game?

Turns 4-5.

So the third Intuition is weak on the turn you dump your hand and empty your graveyard anyway?

[PucktheCat]

It is weak the turn you want a Cunning Wish to win and don't have one.  Or the turn you want the 4th AK.

Looking at how cards function by only examining an ideal gameplan is poor reasoning.

Leo

[Jacob Orlove]

I just deleted 3 worthless posts and two one liners that remain quoted in Klep's post. This thread looked really good, people; let's try to keep it that way.

[Jhaggs]

Eastman,

   I think a great place to start a discussion of a "summer's tog" can begin with talking about the ideal way to construct your mana resources.  Assuming that a 4 color build is ideal (and in my opinion red is necessary) what is the appropriate amount of fetchlands needed to faciliate your first turn plays of duress & shaman while maintaining an a solid manabase?  Mox Pearl or Sol ring?  Or neither?  What is the optimal number of mana sources needed in a deck with so much draw, 24, 23, or 22?

In your build you have listed 5 fetches (4 delta/1 strand).  Looking at an older GAT thread http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9264&start=45 (page 4) Stephen posts a build with 4 fetches and Carl posts a build with 6 (4 delta's/2 Strand).  While on the surface a flucutating number of fetchlands may not appear to be a big concern, altering the number of potential open slots in the Hulk MD can have huge implications.  While other factors do play a role in what draw/control goes into the build, I feel the number of fetchlands/Ring/Pearl/Islands  can dictate what type of engine a player may opt for.  Let's take a look at these three builds:

Eastman:

5 fetches
0 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Island
2 Deep Analysis
1 Mystical
2 Duress
1 Gush
3 Wish
(23 mana sources)

Stephen (*Note* posted in March)

4 Fetches
1 Mox Pearl
0 Sol Ring
1 Island
2 Deep Analysis
1 Merchant Scroll
3 Duress
1 Gush
3 Wish
(22 mana sources)


Carl (*Note* posted in March)

6 Fetches
0 Mox Pearl
0 Sol Ring
2 Island
0 Deep Analysis
1 Mystical
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Duress
1 Gush
2 Wish
(24 mana sources)


Through my observations, here in lies the inherent differences between the 3 decks.  Everything else is pretty much the same (1 deed/1 shaman/2 Intuition/ect).  Each build takes a different avenue in how to obtain the needed (24) (23) (22) mana sources.  I feel that how you construct the decks mana resources will impact the rest of the build.  If we can conclude with reseasonable certainty the optimal number of mana sources Hulk should run, I feel the rest of the build will be alot easier to decipher.

[PucktheCat]

I sense a disturbance in the discussion.  As if thousands of voices realized there were big tournaments coming up and were suddenly silenced.

Re the mana base: I think the question should be broken down further.  How many color sources does the deck want and how many accelerators does it want?

There are three possiblities for number of accelartors: 6 (no Pearl, no Sol Ring), 7 (Pearl or Sol Ring), or 8 (both Pearl and Sol Ring).

There are also three common choices for number of U-sources: 15, 16, and 17.

Although both of these cards produce mana they serve almost entirely different functions in the deck and it seems to me that each number should be optimized independently.  The U-sources should be chosen to maximize the consistency and stability of your mana base for the space they take up.  The fast mana should be chosen to foster the best ratio between acceleration and spells, without much reference to the colored mana base.

That is how I see it, anyway.

Leo

[Azhrei]

The sideboard might need some tweaking, but I doubt it. T1 moves slowly. AFAIK, this is the best available version of the maindeck. The last time we did any playtesting, this build went better than 50% against everything else that was good, whereas other versions did worse than 50%.

//NAME: Hulk
SB:  1 Berserk
SB:  1 Naturalize
SB:  1 Coffin Purge
SB:  1 Fact or Fiction*
SB:  1 Fire/Ice
SB:  1 Oxidize*
SB:  1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB:  1 Vampiric Tutor*
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Firestorm
SB:  2 Pernicious Deed

* 1 Coffin Purge, 2 Deep Analysis

4 Brainstorm
2 Deep Analysis
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Accumulated Knowledge

3 Cunning Wish
2 Intuition
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Time Walk

3 Duress
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

3 Psychatog

2 Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald

[PucktheCat]

1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald

Oh, this makes me so happy.

I agree with most of this maindeck.  The only question I have is about cutting Pernicious Deed.  I know it was being considered, but what was the final thinking on that change?  It seems strong against Fish and Welders, which see some play I hear.

On the other hand, I have hated both it and Shaman since the day I put them in.  They seem to sully the deck, somehow.

Leo

Edit: Some discussion of the artifact removal component of the sb seems in order.  Oxidize and Naturalize were far out of favor with the guiding lights last time I checked.  Artifact Mutation and Rack and Ruin to hard to cast?

More Edit:  I really need to read more closely.  This is a 25 land build with no Mind Twist.  Any reasoning?  Ph34r of Phish?

[Ric_Flair]

First, if the "not bicker" about the Cunning Wish is still applicable ignore these comments.  If not, read on.

I have found that 3 Wishes is a lot.  Injectilo and I talked about this awhile ago and he sort of convinced me that if you run 5 fetches/4 Brainstorm, that 3 Wish is awfully redundant.  I didn't believe him, but then I played a ton of games since then and I agree.  If you run 5 Fetches/4 Brainstorm, that third Wish is unnecessary.  And really, most of the time I only want one Wish, and that is to fetch Berzerk for the win.  The upside is that you free up a slot.  This slot has been changed a lot in my deck, alternating between a Vamp, a Merchant Scroll, Misdirection, FoF and a bunch of other stuff that I now see as junk (Future Sight, in particular, struck me as the quintessential win more card).  I have also played with the idea of adding a second Deed maindeck, as it cleans up a lot of problems and raises the mistake threshold of the deck considerably (the mistake threshold being defined as the deck's resiliency after I have made a play mistake).  

End of Cunning Wish comments.

One card that I would add to the sacroscant list of uncuttables is Gush.  This card is hugely powerful.  Looking through my little notebook of games Gush is second only to Yawg Win as cards I drew on my last turn.  This is not a slam dunk argument, because I could have just had good stuff in my hand to begin with, but Gush really can turn a mediocre hand into a great one.  

I really have never been in a jam running 8 SoloMoxen Crypt.  I run a three color Tog deck with B2B in the board so this extra mana may help me with that strategy, though I have yet to consider if that strategy itself is per se weaker than the other route.  Crypt is just so amazing.  At worst it is a colorless 2/3 Ritual that sticks around.  At best it is exactly the boost you need to cast Cunning Wish.  In a deck like Tog, with lots of colorless mana in casting costs, Crypt is awesome.  In a more color hungry deck like GAT, Crypt is less stellar.  There is something so hugely satisfying about hard casting a DA then flashing it back next turn.  So aside from the strategy caveat I mentioned, I would run 8 artifact accelerants.

I really like FoF in my sideboard, not in the maindeck, because a) it is too expensive if I am playing with a "go for the jugular hand"; and b) too random if I have the all draw no kill hand.  It does allow for deep digging so that is a plus, but I really like it coming out of the board.

I wish I could give more insights, but I haven't played in a while, what with the end of law school and studying for the bar.  

[Azhrei]

I agree with most of this maindeck.  The only question I have is about cutting Pernicious Deed.  I know it was being considered, but what was the final thinking on that change?  It seems strong against Fish and Welders, which see some play I hear.

On the other hand, I have hated both it and Shaman since the day I put them in.  They seem to sully the deck, somehow.

Leo

Edit: Some discussion of the artifact removal component of the sb seems in order.  Oxidize and Naturalize were far out of favor with the guiding lights last time I checked.  Artifact Mutation and Rack and Ruin to hard to cast?

More Edit:  I really need to read more closely.  This is a 25 land build with no Mind Twist.  Any reasoning?  Ph34r of Phish?

Well, sort of, considering Phish absolutely blows goats. Fish isn't much an issue though.

Pernicious Deed is only good maindeck as a "come from behind" card, which is bad because you want to just be winning instead. Gorilla Shaman, however, is more useful and can also do things like block and attack. Welders die to any number of Wishable cards, and Firestorm handles Fish well enough in game one. It's really only exceptional against Null Rod and decks that use creatures other than Tog to deal damage that can win on turn 4.

Naturalize stays because it gets enchantments. Oxidize only costs 1. 4UR for Rack and Ruin is unrealistic, and 2UGR even less so. Remember, ideally with this deck you will sideboard in ZERO cards in a matchup. Running 3 Cunning Wishes is imperative. The two Deeds are the weakest part of the sideboard, though useful enough to keep. If you ever board out more than a couple cards (2 REBs or 2 Deeds are about all that should ever go in, maybe the Fire/Ice, maybe 1 Purge depending on if they're even needed anymore) you're doing it wrong.

Fewer than 25 land make you too weak against mana denial strategies. Hulk got away with 24 land when Wasteland was not in vogue briefly, but since LD is back, 25 is the minimum.

Mind Twist is almost always better as a third Duress, because the only decks you need to Mind Twist to beat you can accomplish the same basic goal with a Duress, and Duress won't accidentally make Goblin Welder really good.

I personally do not like Gush because it is either a "win more" card for me, or a "last ditch effort" card that you almost never want to cast before the turn the game ends... and as I said before, design to reach that turn favorably, don't plan for what to do when it arrives. If the deck is built and played right, you win no matter what.

Test it out; I'm pretty sure this is the best build. It has worked for me far better than any other published variant, and the unpublished ones of which I am aware.

[Mith]

Darren is completely right about the Mindtwist. Overall, the 3rd Duress pulls a lot more weight, and rarely screws you over or takes up unnecessary room in your hand. Plus, combo isn't Hulk's best matchup...and the Duress is very important in the matchup.

As far as Naturalize goes...what enchantments are there to really worry about? Artifact mutation can be crap, but Rack and Ruin has been acceptable. I kind of wanted to try out that new scrying artifact killer from 5th dawn...not sure yet whether the casting cost is going to be workable.

Steven added a 3rd Intuition to his build...and at first I was skeptical...but it speeds up the deck considerably. Mystical Tutor has always been much too slow for my tastes..and the 3rd Intuition fits perfectly in its place.

Deed is so unnecessary maindeck...its dead weight, and needs to remain in the board.

Purge would be nice vs. Dragon...but I'm not seeing so much of that latelty. What I am seeing a lot of is GAT, which isn't a great matchup for Hulk. An early Dryad is just too much to deal with, but Plaguebearer can win games that Hulk would loose. It's possible that an Edict might be acceptable as well, considering that an active Angel can be a problem early on.

It's good to see a build discussion of Hulk on TMD Props to Eastman for starting a solid thread.

[rvs]

@Mith: Eastman started it

I agree with both of you on the 3rd Duress. Hulk is more about being consistent than being randomly broken. We already have Tog to fill that role

Against Dragon, you also still have BEB's to nail them.

There's on thing I don't really understand: why everyone is so hung up on their REBs in the board. I hardly ever need them, and there are quite some better options to use in control mirrors (like additional DA's). I've been testing (control) mirrors for a while now, without using REB, and so far, I haven't had too much of a problem with them. Sure, there are those moments when you wish that DA was a REB when you're opponent goes broken turn1 or 2, but after that, they're dead weight.

[Grand Inquisitor]

It's good to see a build discussion of Hulk on TMD  Props to Eastman for starting a solid thread

I don't know.  Its not good to hand-feed people too much information before the event season...

as I said before, design to reach that turn favorably, don't plan for what to do when it arrives

I think this works well in practice, and it may be the best advice to aspiring hulk players besides 'know who's the beatdown'.  In spite of this, I hated Gush for the longest time...until I beat FCG twice because Gush allowed me to combo out turn 4.  I think this is the card that allows Hulk to continue to run 24 sources and compete against the more resilient slow combo decks (FCG, Dragon, Affinity).

I have found that 3 Wishes is a lot

I can argue down to two wishes in GAT, but Hulk plans to win with berserk most games.  I don't see two working unless you run merchant scroll (which i hate).

Against Dragon, you also still have BEB's to nail them

I really think that Hulk needs lots of help (either lots of purges, or proactive stuff like ground seal) against dragon, fortunately, Dragon's been absent lately, and with the rise of 4cc, this trend should continue.

[Azhrei]

I don't know.  Its not good to hand-feed people too much information before the event season...

Doesn't affect me one bit.

I think this works well in practice, and it may be the best advice to aspiring hulk players besides 'know who's the beatdown'.  In spite of this, I hated Gush for the longest time...until I beat FCG twice because Gush allowed me to combo out turn 4.  I think this is the card that allows Hulk to continue to run 24 sources and compete against the more resilient slow combo decks (FCG, Dragon, Affinity).

Ah, but I combo out on turn four without Gush, largely because I reach the critical 3 mana sooner due to having more land, and more Islands. I also have 5 fetchlands to work better with 4 Brainstorms.

Also, I think a 3rd Intuition over Mystical Tutor is fine. I like being able to find YawgWill though, and I like being able to Mystical + Brainstorm into awesomeness. It's really a great card that can work wonders, but I can also see cutting it. I was always savage at drawing Intuitions, or at AKing into an AK into an AK into an AK.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I like being able to find YawgWill though, and I like being able to Mystical + Brainstorm into awesomeness. It's really a great card that can work wonders, but I can also see cutting it. I was always savage at drawing Intuitions, or at AKing into an AK into an AK into an AK.

I know its Azhrei but have some decency mods, its not like its jp or smennen, give the newbs some respect!

[MaxxMatt]

The list is two cards different from the one that won the World Championship last summer. ( if I can remember well +1 Crypt +1 Shaman -1 Mindtwist -1 Vampiric/Deed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the list is almost the same... )

I'm with you that it is really good, because really good was the list previously hidden before the tourney and then proposed, played...

Joking - Have been "Azhrei sent as the Great Proposer" of "the Wrong Deck to Test,Support&Play?" This is a good tecnique "to feint" ( even in a not SwordFilledEnviroment ) and "smash" the opponent...


On a more serious note, one entire year has past and some archetipes were discovered and developed with EXTREMELY good results, especially against a Tog-based deck ( Dargon first, Belcher-Draw7-TPS and finally all the Slavery_Based.dec ). Is the proposed build so good EVEN against them? A resolved Atog is an autoloss against Slavery, a fast start lets Belcher easily win, an untouched Bazaar-Swarm-FoW engine let Dargon win without ANY interference and if you all carefully analyze the 4c-Control vs. 4c-Hulk, anyone can estimate a nearly even win rate between them.

IMHO Atog.dec IS one of the Strongest control-concept decks that can be played and properly used is really solid and his ability to win in a single turn is really precious, but this build, like a lot of the others proposed is only evidence that the build can't be improved more than what has already been played.

Some time ago, JP referred to a "58/59Tog.dec" that obliges the player to
to add really few new cards to this strong concept. I think that proposing a deck pratically unaltered during an entire year, supports this idea really well

The history tends to repeat itself.
If the history is all about a victory ( as the 'Tog's One ) , then we'll have a good projection of  the possible future victories as well...

Talking about the list, I think that 25 mana fonts can create too frequently a flood similar to the one that can characterize the new "keeper's build". 23-24 is the maximum number that really satisfied me and my teammates during our tests.

This let you have 1 or 2 slots open to some other good spells or accelerants such as Intuition number three and maybe Gush or the fourth Atog as the worst choice for the current metagame...  

When I read the list for the first time I was astonished not to see Mind Twist in an Azhrei List (historically speaking I think I've seen this card in ALL of your lists, equally speaking of ComboDecks and ControlDecks, from BD to TMD... ) . Maybe this  fact can be discussed another bit I think. Expecially because it is the ONLY real-massive-cruel-nonblue-hoser for the mirror match.

Without it , I think that 4c-Control with 4-5 blasts can win almost every match ( match, NOT game... ), if played between two good players.

<3cents

Edited a bit for clarity. -Dr. S

[PucktheCat]

So, looking at Eastman's original post, here are some comments that will fill out the current thoughts on Hulk as I see them.  I have taken this straight from Eastman, and inserted my comments in bold.

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 AK
2 Intuition
2 Deep Analysis
(this gives us 22 slots that no one seems to want to cut)

1 Mind Twist (Duress seems to be in vogue for this slot)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Cunning Wish (this isn't set in stone, but for now lets not bicker about that)
1 Mystical (this is has been cut by some, right?  So it isn't really a "core" card)
1 Demonic
3 Psychatog
(without Mystical as required this is 11 slots.  That includes Mind Twist, because if it is cut it will just become a Duress, so it won't open any slots)

23-24 Mana Sources including at least:
7 Pieces of artifact acceleration
(which oneS?) (anyone think this shouldn't become 8?  If it does I think 24 sources is probably the minumum)
3+ U. Sea
2+ Trop Island
4+ Blue Fetch
1+ Island
1 LoA (Frankly, not running this is stupid.) (so true)
(if you include 8 artifacts, which no one seems to object to so far, this probably is 24 minumum)

24+11+22=57.  Gorilla Shaman isn't included in that count, but no one really seems to want to be without him these days.  If he is considered a default choice we have 58-card Hulk.dec.  The options for the remaining two slots seem to be basically:

Pernicious Deed
Gush
Intuition
Mystical Tutor
Merchant Scroll (which no one like but me)
25th Mana source

Honestly, any one of those will win you some games.

Now, how about the sideboard?

What Wish targets are considered required?
Berserk
Red Elemental Blast (even if you listen to More Fling and run DA to bring in, you probably need one to wish for)
Blue Elemental Blast
Oxidize (I think the cheapest Artifact removal is a must have, myself)
Other Artifact Removal (is Naturalize the only choice without a maindeck Deed?)
Fact or Fiction (necessary, right?  Anyone try to get by without this?)
Coffin Purge
Fire/Ice (this was cut for Firestorm a few times, but it really seems to me that Firestorm should be run in addition to this or not at all)

Some other wish targets:
Firestorm (strong)
Vampiric Tutor (very nice to have, but a luxery much of the time)
More Artifact Removal (some builds run three)
Hurkyl's Recall (I thought this was older tech, but it Azhrei apparently still likes it)
Snuff Out (would definatly make a 20 card sb, but hard to fit in a 15 card one)

What are the cards that actually get sided in?  I have seen these:
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Deep Analysis (making four total post sb)
1 Gorilla Shaman

The sb stuff was from memory, so it is probably incomplete.  Anything else that is a strong option for a Hulk sb?

I think most Hulk sbs end up with 8-10 cards that are basically pure wish targets (8 are listed above) and 5-6 cards that might actually be sided in for games 2-3.

Any thoughts?

Leo

Edit: Per 'duh' and Dr. Sylvan's article, added Coffin Purge to list of required Wish targets.

[Dr. Sylvan]

The sb stuff was from memory, so it is probably incomplete. Anything else that is a strong option for a Hulk sb?

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7168

This was such a perfect opportunity to link to one of my articles, really. Almost too easy. In fact, almost the whole article is relevant, for once. :)

[Azhrei]

There's a problem with that theory, and I'll relate a story to illustrate it.

I know of an area of rapier fighters who all learn, train, and gain muscle memory to protect their upper bodies. For whatever reason, fencers in that region (the size of a good state or so) do not make attacks at legs, and as such don't learn how to make or defend against them either. They're very good otherwise. They have tournaments and they have winners and losers and everything in between, but their culture is that leg attacks are not commonplace or considered.

A fencer with good point control and experience making leg attacks can spend all day hitting these people on the bridge of their foot without much strain, merely because this fencer has a superior set of skills from which to draw-- and by being the only one to have that skill... well, lots of people end up sitting in the dirt.

Basically, just because something is commonplace doesn't mean that it's optimal-- conditions can exist independent of the quality of the idea.

[Eastman]

I've updated the original thread with Puck's SB comments.

Lets move from there on the SB - which still need a lot of finishing up.


As far as the maindeck, I have updated based on all of your suggestions, there has been some excellent discussion - I'm happy to see this community actually working together on something again (although there are some notable absences).

The changes I made are
-1 Mind Twist
+1 Duress

-1 Mystical Tutor
+1 Merchant Scroll

-1 Island
+1 Volcanic Island

although it should be understood that in an area where Blood Moon is relatively popular, the island should be kept around and another land should be pulled.

[PucktheCat]

Basically, just because something is commonplace doesn't mean that it's optimal-- conditions can exist independent of the quality of the idea.

I don't mean to speak for Dr. S (who is clearly very capable of speaking for himself . . . look at that post count   ), but I don't think he really equates average with optimal.

That article is very useful as a place to find catagorical lists of cards for consideration, as well as to get an idea of what other people are playing.  It isn't a substitute for playtesting.  If you want that, you have to read Smmenen's articles    .

I really am curious about the artifact mana.  It seems like most of the people who have spoken up so far are running all 8 and liking it.  This certainly wasn't the case last time Hulk was discussed on here.  Does anyone want to speak for the 7 artifact versions?  Is everyone running 8 artifacts?  Do those who are running 7 just not want to talk about it?

Leo

[Mith]

Just a couple things I'd like to bring up:

#1: Mindtwist > 3rd Duress.
 People tend to hold a handful of REBs vs. Hulk, just waiting for you to try and go off. Furthermore, Twisting away someones hand can be a game-ending play. As much as I don't like going down to two Duress...Mindtwist is a necessary evil.

#2: Why are we playing Fact or Fiction over Gush in the sideboard?
 Hulk is mana-light already...and UU5 is a lot to pay for card draw from the SB. Wishing for a Gush nets basically the same amount of cards, and it saves you from Wastelands (which are EVERYWHERE).

#3: The 3rd Intuition
 This deck runs off Intuition...and when you don't get one early on, you just can't compete with today's fast enviornment. Seriously, just try it...it's so much better than Merchant Scroll or Mystical Tutor. My version of this deck runs 3 DA maindeck, which makes the 3rd Intuition just that much more abusive.

#4: Creature removal in the SB
 It's hard to beat GAT when the drop an early Dryad. The same goes for 4cControl dropping an early Angel. I prefer the clock to be under my control when playing Hulk. I've been running a Plaguebearer in the SB (which helps the GAT matchup) as well as an Edict. I'm not 100% sold on the Edict yet, but time will tell. In any case, this deck needs some method of removal other than Firestorm.