Drawing the Game with Dragon, possible with Bazaar in play?

[Sheik al Kaji]

To clarify the topic title, here is my question:

If, when I play the animate spell on the Dragon, I have a Bazaar in play and I know that there are Squees still in my library, am I obligated to use the Bazaar to put a Squee in the graveyard to stop the infinite loop?
This is, of course, assuming that my Laquatus/Queen/Caller has been somehow removed from the game.

[Jebus]

This is kind of a tough call, so you may not get a definiative answer.

It's going to probably come down to the Judge, but I personally wouldn't force you to do this.

The loop rules get a little grey when it comes to optional actions.

[rvs]

You don't have to Bazaar. It's not as gray as Jebus pretends it to be. It's similar to a "regular"dragon loop that is bazaarless. You won't be tapping mana to actually cast something from your hand, or to manaburn yourself so that you stop the loop?

[Jebus]

You don't have to Bazaar. It's not as gray as Jebus pretends it to be. It's similar to a "regular"dragon loop that is bazaarless. You won't be tapping mana to actually cast something from your hand, or to manaburn yourself so that you stop the loop?

The reason I say it is a grey area as this kind of discussion comes up from time to time.  Everyone has their own opinions of what defines an unbound loop, so what might seem straightforward, can get muddled.

[walkingdude]

•   421.2 - If the loop contains one or more optional actions and one player controls them all, that player chooses a number. The loop is treated as repeating that many times or until the other player intervenes, whichever comes first. [CompRules 2003/07/01]
•   421.4 - If the loop contains only mandatory actions, the game ends in a draw. (See Rule 102.6.) [CompRules 2003/07/01]
There are two positions both of which are good and which depend on how you read 421.2, based solely on that I’d be inclined to say you have to use bazaar and if you intend to rules cheese your way out of a draw that’s the rule to quote.

However in light of 421.4 I’d say that you should get the draw. A mandatory action is a non optional triggered effect or ability or some other thing you have no control over. Since everything in the dragon loop falls into this category the game seems to be a draw. 421.4 says you get the draw if the loop is all mandatory actions, the existence of optional actions which individually might or might not end the loop is unrelated.

These are my thoughts not the dci or anything official, but if you had to argue before a judge that’s what I think is best.

[Sheik al Kaji]

Well, after more thought, since the Bazaar has absolutely nothing to do with the loop itself and that you aren't really "supposed" to know the contents of your library, you can indeed draw the game.

[rvs]

These are my thoughts not the dci or anything official, but if you had to argue before a judge that’s what I think is best.

But I agree with you! Jebus just doesn't

[Jebus]

These are my thoughts not the dci or anything official, but if you had to argue before a judge that’s what I think is best.

But I agree with you! Jebus just doesn't

All I said was that someone might give you a different answer, depending on who you ask.

How can you say I don't agree with you when I said he should get the draw?

[rvs]

then I guess I misunderstood something somewhere.

[Shock Wave]

An issue like this should definitely NOT be subjective. This is a major archetype in the format and a very critical ruling.

[Toad]

Tapping a Bazaar of Bagdhad for its ability can't be considered as an optional action.

If you try to animate the Dragon with no other creature cards in your graveyard, you can draw the game if you want to. A judge can't force you to dump additional cards in your graveyard.

[Jebus]

Tapping a Bazaar of Bagdhad for its ability can't be considered as an optional action.

If you try to animate the Dragon with no other creature cards in your graveyard, you can draw the game if you want to. A judge can't force you to dump additional cards in your graveyard.

It seems everyone here is in agreement on this.

If you should run into a situation where a judge says otherwise, I urge you to appeal.

MoreFling has probably presented a very nice argument for your case if you run into someone with a differing opinion (the mana burn thing).  Just always be sure to keep cool.

[Sheik al Kaji]

Wait a sec, if I follow that, then how could a judge ever rule that you would mana burn to death? With the loop going, the game can never advance to the point where it would check for leftover mana in mana pools.

[Malhavoc]

Forcing the player to use the bazaar would be like forcing the player to cast a careful study in his hand (ok, it's sorcery and not istant, but you've got the point). But if we think about it, the opponent does not know the cards in that player's hand, and he can't ask to see them. He would be forced to call the judge to look at them. The absolute need to call a judge is something that should be avoided: think about card-searching.. someone can decide to not find a card in his library (even if there is) in order to not force a judge to come and look if that card is really there or not every time.

So in the end: you force to use a Bazaar -> you force to use cards in hand -> you need to always call a judge -> you are following a path that should not be followed.

[Jebus]

Wait a sec, if I follow that, then how could a judge ever rule that you would mana burn to death? With the loop going, the game can never advance to the point where it would check for leftover mana in mana pools.

Yeah, that slipped my mind and I didn't really think about that too hard.  I guess MoreFling didn't either.

Regardless.  They shoudln't be able to force you to do anything, especially when things that are not public knowledge are involved.

Again, if you end up at a disagreement with a responding Judge (if you reach that point) respectfully appeal.

[Machinus]

The loop rules state that if optional actions cause the loop to occur, then you cannot draw. However, once the loop is started, it continues on its own without any player involvement. The possibility that an optional action on behalf of the active player could STOP the loop is completely irrelevant. Taking optional actions that have the possibility to stop infinite loops is not addressed in the rules, and is an absurd expectation. You get the draw.

[Sheik al Kaji]

I'm going to have this question Rune Horvik'd, just to see if we can get a ruling out of Wizards itself.

[rvs]

An issue like this should definitely NOT be subjective. This is a major archetype in the format and a very critical ruling.

That doesn't really mean anything. Interpetations of rules are different with everybody. The best way to make a 'universal' ruling is if there's precedent.

[Philatio]

I'm going to have this question Rune Horvik'd, just to see if we can get a ruling out of Wizards itself.

Well, someone Star city'd it, and their guy is Level 4.  It seems you don't have to Bazaar.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7529

It says:

"Q: I have heard a LOT of debate about this, but no one seems to know the correct answer for sure. You have animated Worldgorger Dragon with an Animate Dead/Dance of the Dead/Necromancy. You have no other creatures in your graveyard, but you have a Bazaar of Baghdad. Let's assume for a moment that your opponent has something like Damping Matrix out to prevent your win condition creatures from working. Are you allowed to draw the game with the infinite loop, or MUST you repeatedly tap Bazaar until you find a creature to put in the graveyard?


A: Let's put that debate to rest. You're never forced to do anything unless an instruction on a card or a game rule expressly tells you to do so. Assuming no one is willing or able to break the chain, the game will be a draw due to an unbound loop. Note that Damping Matrix doesn't prevent triggered abilities from working."

[Shock Wave]

An issue like this should definitely NOT be subjective. This is a major archetype in the format and a very critical ruling.

Interpetations of rules are different with everybody.

That's the problem.