Suicide GAT - Fifth Dawn's new monster

[Kowal]

I would assume Submerge would be the card of choice for stopping Dragon, since that way they can't just drop a land, a mox, and try again.

[rvs]

I would assume Submerge would be the card of choice for stopping Dragon, since that way they can't just drop a land, a mox, and try again.

Fair enough, but like I said, it's an ADDED BONUS sometimes. If dragon gets a dream hand like that one, what can you do, really? The reason Snuff is also superior is it pretty much never requires mana. All you need is an underground in play.

Which then ofcourse means you can cast it sooner. Come to think of it, I think I'd even run vendetta before I run terror. Edict is entirely different. If you expect Morphling and untargettable friends to run loose in your meta, then by all means, play edict.

[MuzzonoAmi]

I completely forgot about [card]Snuff Out[/card]. I agree that it's the best option to deal with dragon/other critters now. But do we have an answer for Togs? I'm uncomfortable adding Red, but short of Smother, do we have an answer un U/G/B?

[mrieff]

I completely forgot about [card]Snuff Out[/card]. I agree that it's the best option to deal with dragon/other critters now. But do we have an answer for Togs? I'm uncomfortable adding Red, but short of Smother, do we have an answer un U/G/B?

Stupefying Touch perhaps?
It is Blue, but I'm not at all convinced that its better than Smother.
It however an option which is available to us.

[Ric_Flair]

If Snuff Out is coming into the conversation then [card]Vendetta[/card] deserves a mention.  I prefer Smother to either of these, but Vendetta is probably better than Snuff Out, in most instances (FAT Togs/Dryads excluded).

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

I think I can comment on Snuff Out vs Vendetta, as I tested both when CAB built it's version of B2B Tog. Actually, we ran Vendetta when Gabethebabe mentioned Snuff Out in a PM to me after the January Dülmen. I changed to Snuff and never regretted it. 0 is just so much better than B for a Wish-target to cost.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I can't say Vendetta helps this, but for me I'd worry about the life loss of Snuff Out.

With fetches, FoW, Night Whispers, and fastbond you can find yourself low on life fast.

Ghastly Demise fits here nicely in my experience.

My SB has been changing more and more towards spot removal.  I just don't find myself wanting coffin purge, null rods, or ground seal as much anymore.  Anyone finding this trend?  It seems creatures and artifacts are what I need answers to most.

[eddavatar]

GI:I honestly think we're almost always on the same frequency.

I absolutely see where you are coming from in terms of Ground Seal/Coffin Purge. I've personally not touched them for at least 2 months considering that I've played against exactly one Dragon deck during that period(and still beating it)

Null Rod I personally play Damping matrix over it, siding out Tog. But they've went out recently too due to declining numbers of slavers in my meta. I also found the red splash usually does the job well enough.

The current creature removal of choice for me are Fire/Ice and Diabolic Edict. I h8 angels/morphlings with a passion. I took smother out of the board because usually Fire/Ice does the job anyway. I do think smother is a superior option over vendetta or snuff out, simply because I just can't stand losing more life myself w/ the myriad of Fetch/NW/(crypt)/occasional Drain mana burn.

An issue on the sideboarding plan that I'm interested about is the right number of REBs and BEBs. I'm seeing morefling's sentiment about REBs and I'm currently running 2. BEBs are just so useful nowadays that i'm runnning 2. The strategy I take w/ REB/BEB is usually side in 1 in matchups where they're useful and leave the other one as a wish target. How many do you guys think is the right number?

[Tristal]

How have you guys been on life totals?  Do you find you outright lose to a burn deck with all the pain you take between Fetches, Fastbond and Night's Whisper?

[Grand Inquisitor]

How have you guys been on life totals? Do you find you outright lose to a burn deck with all the pain you take between Fetches, Fastbond and Night's Whisper?

Actually, I've playtested sligh unintentionally.  Its not a great matchup.

Here's the secret...sligh loses to everything else.

There's a time and place for expoiting metagame holes, now is not the time for sligh, or direct damage decks.  The closest equivalent, affinity, has nothing on this.  You could count FCG, but that only beats decks that don't sideboard for it, which should be none, if you're competitive.

[Eastman]

 You could count FCG, but that only beats decks that don't sideboard for it, which should be none, if you're competitive.

I don't think that is necessarily the case. While FCG is certainly a weaker deck now that it is on people's lips then it was when it could fly in under the radar, it's strength, resiliency, and simplicity to build will keep its numbers up at tournaments.

That being said, I seem to recall that we built grostill considering FCG and  it still beat you in the Waterbury finals!

[Grand Inquisitor]

That being said, I seem to recall that we built grostill considering FCG and it still beat you in the Waterbury finals!

Eh tu Brute?

Actually, if you had stuck around for the finals, you would have seen how badly I was mized upon (not that its relative to the post).



I've seen a lot of tourney reports about winning lists with daze in them.  I know smennen has strong feelings about this card, I was wondering what everyone's opinion on this controversial card are.

[Eastman]

I've seen a lot of tourney reports about winning lists with daze in them.  I know smennen has strong feelings about this card, I was wondering what everyone's opinion on this controversial card are.

Daze is strong, but conditional. GAT runs on a light enough curve that you can generally afford the tempo loss. While it IS conditional, it is less so (And the disadvantage is less severe) then Misdirection, arguably its largest competition for the maindeck slot. I strongly believe that the first 2 dazes ought to get the nod over the more conditional Misdirection.


I don't have a lot of time to expound on this, but I've made some changes to the list that I thought I ought to share with everyone. I'm still not sure what an appropriate SB is and I wonder if anyone would take up the task of putting together a sb list to sort of lead that part of the discussion.

12 Disruption
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection  (-1)
4 Duress
2 Daze


13 Draw
4 Brainstorm
3 Night's Whisper
+4 Accumulated Knowledge (we need something and
-4 Serum Visions they aren't as good as we thought)
1 Gush

5 Tutors
1 Demonic
1 Mystical
1 Vampiric
2 Cunning Wish

6 Creatures:
4 Quirion Dryad
2 Pyschatog

4 Broken:
1 Yawg Will
1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk
1 Fastbond


20 Mana
4 U. Sea
4 Trop. Island
5 Blue Fetch
1 LoA
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus

[rvs]

Just 2 daze is kind of random. It generally is something you would need after your drop your guy (otherwise, the tempo loss would be really bad, since isn't that a condition this deck (having tempo) has in its route to victory?) I don't think you can expect to reliably draw into it, especially not if you are putting all your drawing-eggs in the 2-mana basket.
I'm sure you tested that Serum Visions isn't good enough, but shouldn't you revert back to Sleight of Hand in that case? With 2 mana, you should be dropping your Dryad, not trying to AK for one or whatever the idea behind the inclusion of the AK's is.

My words aren't backed by testing, but on paper, it looks really bad to me.

[MuzzonoAmi]

I've been loving the Visions. AK is, as Rudy said, too slow here. Just looking at it from the perspective of Tempo, the Dryad needs to hit turn 2 100% (and that's not a hard thing to do with 12 cantrips and 4 Dryads). In the same vein, at least 3 Daze are needed, but I perfer 4. Don't forget that at worst they let you resolve a draw spell during your mainphase that otherwise wouldn't have resolved, and they pump the Dryad at the same time. They remain flexible well into the midgame (which you're trying to keep short anyway) and can even generate mana or help make Togs lethal (which are, admittedly, more circumstantial uses)

[Gabethebabe]

Daze can not generate mana, but they can convert a color you don´t need to a color you need.

[eddavatar]

Eastman: The Night's Whisper/AK plan was championed by me a month ago. It doesn's suck, but it does generate the pointed problem of the 2CC blob. From my testing, if you are planning to play them, I truely suggest Mana Drain. The deck would lean more to the control side and should be played as such. I played red in that version and also ran Mana Crypt.

Daze is a perfect card as a 1-of and it did well for me last week. It at worst can be pitched late game. I'm having doubts about 2 but I'll test it out. 2 Misd is probably the right number but I can see it going down to 1.

And I truely believe that fastbond does not belong to the deck. It never helped me enough early game and it doesn't matter mid to late game. If the deck were to run fastbond, the 3rd cunning wish would be crucial as a way to replenish the hand w/ FoF early on.

[rvs]

How can daze ever be perfect as a 1-off? That just blatent lack of enough testing matches. It would seem you got lucky a few times and had it in hand at the right moment.
You cannot realiably draw into it, and you sure as hell won't tutor for it either.

The only logical conclusion is, that your assesment of daze is totally wrong.

[Toad]

How can daze ever be perfect as a 1-off?

You can always randomly make it fall off your deck while shuffling before game 1 "by mistake". That will have a psychological impact on your opponent who will often try to play around it.

[JACO]

How can daze ever be perfect as a 1-off? That just blatent lack of enough testing matches. It would seem you got lucky a few times and had it in hand at the right moment.
You cannot realiably draw into it, and you sure as hell won't tutor for it either.

The only logical conclusion is, that your assesment of daze is totally wrong.

The reason it is perfect as a 1-of for Eddie is because every single game he plays, he draws insane. Literally, every game, so naturally 1-of cards like Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Black Lotus, and Daze, usually start in his opening grip. I'm not even joking here.

For the rest of the world, 2-3 Daze has seemed to me to be the optimal number. As Toad said, even if you don't have early, your opponent has it in their head that you are playing with it, so they tend to slow down their play to play around it, and if they are slowing down their game plan, that in fact gives GAT more time to do what it needs to do to be in a position to win.

[eddavatar]

@Morefling: Daze is the 60th card in my deck. It's just that close to being cut. The 59th-60th slots were between that, Mystical Tutor and Vampiric Tutor for me. I decided that I would cut VT because 1)it's not blue 2)all those life loss in the deck adds up. Daze is not a worldbeater. In all those games I've played with daze, it ended up countering twice. The rest of the times it's either dead, ending up as the perfect pitch card(majority of the cases), or the card does not matter anymore at the game state. However, the couple times when it DID counter a spell was really helpful. That is why it stayed.

However, I've my doubts about running 2, much less 3 (3 is basically a NEVER personally). There are situations where you don't have a pitch counter in hand but then got a daze in hand and turn totally dead. It's one of the lousiest topdeck you can have.Thus, I would avoid drawing into 2 of them by all means, and playing only 1 is the best way to do it. But I would take the word and try out 2 at the time being.