Is 4cc viable in a strongly Sligh meta? Can 5th Dawn help?

[Abbadon Khaine]

For starters, I have a tournament this Saturday, and the organizer is allowing Fifth Dawn to be included. My metagame can be summed up in one word. Sligh. Lots of Sligh. When I say Sligh, I mean tons and tons of red, sideboarding to hate anything blue and powered. This is unfortunate, because I play fully powered 4-color Control. As hilarious as it may sound, I achieved a 3rd place position at the last tournament that I attended by using an IsoKeeper build, and every game I won (9 out of 16, 3/4 of my opponents playing Sligh), was won by Sceptering an Orim’s Chant or Fire/Ice fetched with Cunning Wish.

I don’t think that this trick will work again, so I am seeking cunning stunts to thwart my opponent’s plans for red deck domination. However, I know I will still end up facing a couple of control and rogue aggro decks, so a strategy that is a little too narrow could cost me.

This leads me to the topic of the conversation. I have access to a number of possibly useful Fifth Dawn cards, and I am wondering what the community’s opinion is on their usefulness in 4cc. The reason I ask on behalf of 4cc is that I have played 4/5cc decks since I began playing Magic, and I think that I should stick to my strengths.

What are useful additions to the 4cc archetype with the arrival of 5th Dawn? My opinion is that there are 2 primary candidates for use. These are Crucible of Worlds, and Engineered Explosives.  I could be wrong, so here is my reasoning…

Crucible of World’s Properties:
1) Provides protection from land destruction
2) Provides color-fixing with fetchlands
3) Augments land-destruction capabilities
4) Costs 3 mana
5) Can be cast with Drain mana

The problem with Crucibe, as I see it, is that it may not be fast enough for my meta. Gorilla Shaman and Dwarven Miner dropped in the first three turns destroyed me in the semi-finals, and gave me no end of trouble throughout the tourney. These cards are in every sideboard that has red. My Wastelands and Shamans were largely useless, seeing as every deck I faced was either mono-colored or two-tone, and mostly unpowered. Unfortunately (?!), I am fully powered, and the hate flowed freely unto my old fogy self. Finally, I would probably rather cast an Angel, Scrying, or a Decree with my Drain mana.

Engineered Explosives’ Properties:
1) Wipes the slate by killing what needs to die
2) Comes online faster than Powder Keg, its nearest kin
3) Requires many colors to ensure utility
4) For my purposes, requires one and two colorless to cast
5) Cannot be functionally cast with Drain mana

The problems with Explosives include the minimum 3 casting cost, and colored mana requirement. Additionally, they do nothing for the most expensive stuff. They seem more viable that Crucible overall, however.

I’m playing Germbus, and seeking meta-specific tweeks to the net-build in order to shock and awe. Additionally, apart from the 5th dawn options, pretty much any idea would be welcome, both sideboard and maindeck. My opponents tend to be:

Goblin Sligh
FCG
Random Red Creature Sligh
Too-much Burn Sligh
Anything red with haste Sligh
Random Green Aggro
White Weenie/ Shadow creatures (Yeah, I thought WTF myself)
Cognivore/Oath decks
Stompy (How archaic…)
Unpowered Keeper
Suicide Black
Ravager Affinity
And other random T2/Extended decks with duals and older cards

[Kowal]

Sounds like your metagame loses to 4x Exalted Angel.  Anything beyond that would be unnecessary, but if your metagame contains that much jarbage, the keeper dream team of Angel + FTK should be fine.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Laying the smackdown with the Angels should be enough, but have you considered some of the more archaic options such as Moat? I'm aware that Keeper hasn't run them for years, but with such a presence of randomness and lower Tier decks that depend on creatures, having such a bomb as secret tech might be what you need to put you over the top. You could also run Humility (though the interaction with the Angels is painful).

Goblin Sligh
FCG
Random Red Creature Sligh
Too-much Burn Sligh
Anything red with haste Sligh
Random Green Aggro
White Weenie/ Shadow creatures (Yeah, I thought WTF myself)
Cognivore/Oath decks
Stompy (How archaic…)
Unpowered Keeper
Suicide Black
Ravager Affinity

I went through your list, highlighting anything that would be killed or at least severely hobbled by one or both of the aforementioned white enchantments (which are conveniently immune to almost all of the anti-blue and anti-artifact hate floating around), and I think that the results warrant at least a bit of consideration. Then again, I never did claim to be anything if not oldschool

[edit]: Heck, while we're at it, why not CoP: Red? It is auto game against Sligh 89% of the time

[edit again]: Would some sort of Stax or Slaver build work or is there just too much power hate? I'd think something explosive yet controlish would be best for an unpowered, semi-random metagame.

Good luck,
-Dan

[Abbadon Khaine]

Kowal:

I have found as much so far, but this is only the case when I have the mana to cast and protect them. I'm specifically worried about burn. These guys may play some wild piles, but they have playskill developed in T2 and Extended. They prepare, obviously, to toast any creature that even appears important.

In my playtesting, I have so far had trouble getting to 2 blue early due to heavy land destruction and my inherent lack of topdecking skills (I happen to get a Wastelands in nearly every opening hand, and often get 2), so barring numerous opening Forces of Will, the fast Angel strategy seems iffy due to lack of protection, and my FTKs only put one hole at a time in the crimson wall.

AngryPheldagrif:

Ain't Old School the bomb?  

A Moat would be great, if I had access to one. Humility I have in spades, however, though its casting cost is a real bother. CoP: Red helps a great deal, and I have two in the side, though again, the crazy mana destruction (we're talking 4 Miners, 4 Shamans in every board and all five strips, possibly Crucible for the recursion) of my would-be killers helps them overrun it about half the time.

[Unearthly]

If land destruction and sligh is your problem, do you think dropping the wastes for a more stable mana base might be a good idea? Some basic islands might help against the multitude of wastelands/miners.

[Kowal]

With four angels, the only deck in his metagame he needs to worry about is the keeper mirror.  5 strips are key there.

I also (obviously) suggest running Plagiarize technology.  It's sound in the mirror.

[Ephraim]

Playing strictly to your metagame, have you considered Chill? It's cheap enough that I'm sure a powered deck could get it out first turn fairly regularly and it makes Red decks cry. It totally wrecks that nice mana curve of which Sligh has always been so proud. There's also the possibility of Sphere of Law - it's more expensive than CoP:R, obviously, but slightly less expensive than Humility. It's a big speed bump for a burn deck to overcome in the early game and it doesn't require a constant investment of mana, as a CoP does.

[goober]

I don't suggest Humility because then you will get beat on by a lot of 1/1s, and your Angel won't be as effective.  You could try something like Crawl Space if you can't afford Moat.  Teferti's Moat might also work well.  Starstorm is a fun way to wipe out their board as well.  All of these would work beutifully off a turn 2 Drain.  All of those are good versus pretty much everything here, and you could SB Cop Red for all the Sligh matchups, while not hurting the rest.

[cssamerican]

However, I know I will still end up facing a couple of control and rogue aggro decks, so a strategy that is a little too narrow could cost me.

so barring numerous opening Forces of Will, the fast Angel strategy seems iffy due to lack of protection, and my FTKs only put one hole at a time in the crimson wall.

I'm specifically worried about burn.

Misdirection allows you to burn the burners while protecting your Angel and dominate the counter wars. The decks that misdirection sucks against is prison and it does not sound like you have any prison in your metagame so these should be golden. And unlike many of the suggestions here these could be maindecked since they work well against control and burn.

[SpikeyMikey]

[edit]: Heck, while we're at it, why not CoP: Red? It is auto game against Sligh 89% of the time

 :lol: I used to run Sligh religiously, and I always loved it when people called CoP:Red "auto-win" against Sligh.  It's annoying to play around, but you can play around it, easier than you can play around Chill.  CoP: Red is an autowin only if you have Moat and Ivory Mask out...  Otherwise, the moment you play a spell, you're going to die to Price.  If you hold back mana for price, you're just going to end up taking 3 bolts to the dome instead.  Plus, Sligh runs Anarchys in the board.

CSS is right, Misdirection is good for you.  Run 2-3.  They're good in the mirror, amazing against burn, the only time you don't want them in your meta is against ravager.  Also, cut down to one waste and one strip, adding 3 more duals, to strengthen your mana base(like you said, wastes are useless)and add a Zorb.

Rather than siding in CoP: Red, I'd suggest the Sphere of Law and Chill.  If you're really sick, don't run either and run Glaciers instead.  If you're going the glaciers route, be sure to add an enlightened to the board, to help you fetch it quickly.  A turn 3 glaciers against Sligh will give you a lot of breathing room.

Oh, one other thing rapes Sligh, although, not as effectively by itself, but in combination with other hate. Caltrops is effectively a 3cc Moat.  Probably wouldn't be bad against Shadow Weenie either.

I think Keeper is the wrong thing to play in a format with that much Sligh, even if it's bad sligh, but Misdirections and Zorb should give you fighting chance game one.

[Toad]

4 maindeck Exalted Angels should wreck your meta. You just need to learn how the Sligh matchup works for GermBus, since It's really easy.

Netdecking GermBus decklists is the worst thing you can do. Why are you using Gorilla Shaman? No one plays Slavery, Belcher or Stax in your metagame right? Cut these then, for some additionnal Fire/Ice, for example. They are far better than Crucible of Worlds or Engineered Explosives in your meta. And sideboarded FTK (considering your meta, use 3) will cry havoc on your opponent's army.

Keep the Wastelands since the only deck you should worry about is the mirror. And don't use Misdirection since its a bad card.

I think Keeper is the wrong thing to play in a format with that much Sligh

*sigh*
What does Sligh do against a deck that gains 4 life per turn?

[cssamerican]

Toad, I suggested Misdirection because this meta is burn and a little control. He expressed that the Angel never gets to swing because they run so much burn that he can't keep it on the board. In this case I can't see how Misdirection would be bad, not only does it protect the Angel long enough for her to put the game out of reach, it also doesn't require mana to use (Abbadon Khaine other complaint), in this case it would be FoW 5 thru 7. Also I was assuming that Abbadon Khaine knew the GermBus's Gorilla Shamans were ass in this metagame, and he was looking to replace those with something to help him in this metagame. (Something that might be true since I have not seen his decklist)

Can you please explain where my logic was faulty other than saying Misdirection is a bad card, because I have always look at its worth as dependent on the metagame. When the metagame has a whole lot of targeted spells Misdirection is usally an awesome card at protecting threats and stealling tempo. Granted in a meta full of prison it sucks, but it doesn't look as if there is any prison in his meta, and his most difficult matches seem to be against decks that rely heavly on targeted spells.

[leviat]

Can you please explain where my logic was faulty other than saying Misdirection is a bad card, because I have always look at its worth as dependent on the metagame.

Personally, I feel that GermBus can just barely support it's four FoW. In a metagame full of mana destruction, that means that you are more than likely going to be paying 2-for-1 (or 2-for-2 at best), which is not optimal. You also have to consider that this doesn't stop some of Sligh's more dangerous threats such as PoP, Cursed Scroll, and Ankhs.

If it were me, I would play an aggressive game with four Angels. Sideboard in F/I, BEB, and Gush, taking out the Monkies and a Wish.

Another thing to keep in mind when working against Sligh is that you don't always have to play out your Moxes or Sac your fetchlands right away, instead hold them until necessary. In my opinion, Sligh really only has two serious threats, Price of Progress and Fireblast. If you hold onto answers for those two cards, every point of life over four is just a buffer to give you the time you need.

One of the weak points of Sligh is that it doesn't have the draw spells to recover when control stabilizes. Balance is a key card as you should let them overextend and then wipe the board clean. The other weak point of Sligh is that it's so narrow-minded. They don't really have any "tricks up there sleeve", this should give you the edge to have a stronger game than them.

As you play, consciously keep in the back of your mind the strategy you wish to employ. Use tutors/Brainstorm to setup your hand with a Balance + Angel. If you start with a lot of fast mana, tutor for Mind Twist instead of Ancestral Recall (Sligh cannot recover from a Mind Twist). Ever since I started playing Exalted Angels, Sligh has never been a problem and it shouldn't be for you either as long as you play smart and think ahead.

[Abbadon Khaine]

The Gorilla Shamans were always a definite no-go, since last tournament I almost never used them, and F/I sounds like it would work in this place.
Essentially, I'm feeling more confident about the 4 Angel plan after the last few hours of playtesting, because I have begun to gain a feel for when to change roles. The epiphany came when I equated magic to longsword fencing in the German tradition, which I am currently studying.

When the swords meet, they "bind", and it is the swordsman's job to feel how strongly or weakly that they fight the bind. If they oppose strongly, then you must not oppose them with strength. You should deflect and change attack angles. If they oppose weakly, you should move to a killing thrust, stifling any counterattack as you drive inside their guard.

In magic terms, the game itself is the bind, and you must feel how strongly they are pressing you. If they press weakly, go for the kill, ensuring that you stifle any counterattacks. If they press strongly, deflect their assaults until you can change the attack angle and drive them off center (destroying their creatures, depleting their hand, etc), regaining the initiative.

I don't know if I would use Misdirection, simply because I'm not sure if I can support so many pitch counters without emptying my hand in the early game. Chill was an option I had considered, but it seemed overly specific. So far, this is my decklist, in case you were wondering and wished to comment:

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Mind Twist
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Skeletal Scrying
4 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Cunning Wish
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Fire/Ice
1 Balance
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
4 Exalted Angel
1 Decree of Justice

5 SoMox (no Lotus yet)
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 City of Brass
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

SB
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Disenchant
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Skeletal Scrying
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Flametongue Kavu
1 Plagiarize (this just seems really pricey)

I think that this setup provides the most flexible setup I've used thus far, allowing a smooth transfer from control to beatdown when the opportunity presents itself. My sideboard plan is in flux, though. Should Decree come out game 2 vs aggro, and are FTKs better to side in than BEBs? I would prefer not to side more than 5 cards, because I don't want to dilute the deck's basic strategy.

[AngryPheldagrif]

{deck}

-1 SB Plagiarize (Utterly useless 99 out of 100 times)
-1 SB Red Elemental Blast (2 is plenty for an unpowered field)

+1 SB Fire/Ice (Invaluable as a Wish target since so many of the sligh and stompy stuff run tons of X/1 creatures)
+1 SB Misdirection (Not good enough as a maindeck card, but pretty awesome as a Wish target to give you access to a free slap in the face against non-R/U cards (the Blastable colors), the ability to turn stuff like StP and Hymn to Tourach right back at them is awesome)

Good luck!
-Dan

PS: Hit me up on AIM (HunterKiller403) if you'd like to test this deck out on Apprentice. I'd be happy to help.

[edit]: *slaps self* How could I forget Gush? It's the perfect SB Wish target against Wastes and such. At very least squeeze in something like Teferi's Response. Landstill's tech card finds Dwarven Miners both crunchy and delicious.