TheManaDrain.com
October 25, 2025, 10:06:46 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 [4]
  Print  
Author Topic: Discussion: Teams and Type One  (Read 16925 times)
Hyperion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 633


terraformer51
View Profile Email
« Reply #90 on: June 22, 2004, 08:07:07 am »

If people are going to flame each other on this thread it will be closed, end of story.
Logged

VGB
Basic User
**
Posts: 287



View Profile WWW
« Reply #91 on: June 22, 2004, 08:13:56 am »

In response to JACO's article and his open-sourcing analogy:

The beauty of open-sourcing is that only those with the wherewithal to do so participate in development and test of the code.

Magic, conversely, practically has no entry barrier.
Logged

Triple_S
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 501


Father to Future JSS Champion

three3deuce
View Profile
« Reply #92 on: June 22, 2004, 08:14:52 am »

Even if a deck has been successful at a tournament the deck does not have to be published, its purely a voluntary issue.  Most of the times at a large event, the TO will publish decklists (unless a player asks it be withheld, which I am pushing all Short Bus participants to do until after GenCon just to make you do your own work) or a player will do a tournament report which will contain a list (ala PTW with his amazing report on a deck which was already public knowledge).
Logged

Team Shortbus--newly reconstituted

Kicking you in the ovaries since 1975.

 Team Short Bus: bastard covered bastards with bastard filling
dicemanx
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1398



View Profile
« Reply #93 on: June 22, 2004, 09:54:52 am »

I'm with Triple_S with respect to the position he holds.

I don't understand how withholding information can be "bad for the format". It might slow down it's "evolution", but this is hardly a bad thing. In fact, I think it's a positive thing to have T1 as a format shrouded in some mystery and force people to do some honest work if they want to be successful. If everything is discovered and revealed, quite frankly it makes things boring and kills the excitement of innovation.

People want everything handed to them on a silver platter.

As far as TO's having an "obligation" to publish all decklists after an event, what a bunch of nonsense. There could be an obligation because its part of the rules of the tournament that all decklists are to be made public, but there isn't some sort of "moral obligation" to reveal them.
Logged

Without cultural sanction, most or all our religious beliefs and rituals would fall into the domain of mental disturbance. ~John F. Schumaker
Moxlotus
Teh Absolut Ballz
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2199


Where the fuck are my pants?

moxlotusgws
View Profile
« Reply #94 on: June 22, 2004, 11:57:23 am »

And what would happen if EVERY SINGLE PERSON in EVERY tournament requested their decklists withheld?  Where would the format go from there?  Then people stop innovating and stop posting.  Then we are in 1997.  I know that is a freaking huge exaggeration but it was just to get a point across.

Nobody is asking to have things handed to them on a silver platter.  No one is like "I suck-give me a deck so I can copy it for the tournament."  What some are saying is that after a deck wins it should be released.
Logged

Cybernations--a free nation building game.
http://www.cybernations.net
MarkPharaoh
Basic User
**
Posts: 392


Ghost of T1

MruthyuMOTL
View Profile Email
« Reply #95 on: June 22, 2004, 12:21:49 pm »

Honestly, if you want to win so bad and will do things like withhold decklists just to have an even bigger edge against the rest of the field, why don't you just quit T1 and play a format that pays a lot better if you want to win and make money so freakin bad?  Thats all withholding decklist does in my opinion: not give others much of a chance in future tournaments so you can keep making Top8 and winning money.
Logged

dicemanx
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1398



View Profile
« Reply #96 on: June 22, 2004, 12:25:13 pm »

Quote
And what would happen if EVERY SINGLE PERSON in EVERY tournament requested their decklists withheld? Where would the format go from there? Then people stop innovating and stop posting. Then we are in 1997.


Don't generalize. Maybe you or others would stop innovating or posting, but others would see it as an opportunity to work towards innovation.

There have been so many advancements in T1 and in terms of magic theory in general without having to worry about about another "1997" scenario. Top T1 players have already discussed and revealed, in great detail, what comprises a modern, competitive T1 deck. All that remains to be done is discover all of the "variations on a theme" or dig for new "tech". It's perfectly acceptable to withhold such information - there is no obligation to reveal it "for the good of T1" or other such nonsense.
Logged

Without cultural sanction, most or all our religious beliefs and rituals would fall into the domain of mental disturbance. ~John F. Schumaker
Triple_S
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 501


Father to Future JSS Champion

three3deuce
View Profile
« Reply #97 on: June 22, 2004, 12:29:30 pm »

Even if a deck wins there is no obligation for it to be released.  Innovation will still occur since the members of the community who play in the high profile events will see the decks with their own eyes and will make the adjustments they need to make based on this eye witness and (subsequential) anecdotal evidence.  I believe this was said by someone else in another thread (I can't remember who to give proper credit) but I believe that a number of people are upset that the format has changed so that many of the highest profile players do their deck development on teams instead of on TMD/BD.  While this must be frustrating, it should also serve as incentive for you to bump your game up another notch.  Should high profile events have decklists made public after the fact?  Sure.  Am I going to release my decklist after SCG?  Not a chance.  If it comes out it will be due to SCG publishing it on their own.

and why do you play a game if not to win?  Sure I like to have fun playing but I have a helluva lot more fun winning with my friends instead of losing.  I'd much rather win and let you think you are in 1997 than lose and let the format "develop".
Logged

Team Shortbus--newly reconstituted

Kicking you in the ovaries since 1975.

 Team Short Bus: bastard covered bastards with bastard filling
Dante
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1415


Netdecking better than you since newsgroup days

wdicks23
View Profile
« Reply #98 on: June 22, 2004, 12:35:22 pm »

Quote from: Moxlotus
And what would happen if EVERY SINGLE PERSON in EVERY tournament requested their decklists withheld?  Where would the format go from there?  Then people stop innovating and stop posting.  Then we are in 1997.  I know that is a freaking huge exaggeration but it was just to get a point across.

Nobody is asking to have things handed to them on a silver platter.  No one is like "I suck-give me a deck so I can copy it for the tournament."  What some are saying is that after a deck wins it should be released.


The real issue seems to be a sense of entitlement here.  Most people on teams seem to feel they should be able to get the TO to withhold their decklist if they want, as if the decklist is their copyright.  Most people not on teams feel they are somehow entitled to said decklist, just because someone played it publicly at a tournament.

You're both right and wrong.

The fact is, in the beginning (BD/early TMD), this board served the functions that teams do now for most people - bouncing ideas, tuning decklists, debating sideboards, in addition to the more community functions such as general metagame discussions, tournament reporting/annoucing, etc.  It wasn't hard for the small handful of BD/TMD people who were good with the global collaboration to do really well.  Well, type 1 got more popular, with thousands of people joining TMD and attendance generally rising in just about every area.  

Thus, since many people had now made a leap of deckbuilding (or netdecking) and understanding of the format, people had to take it to the next level to consistently win big tournaments - form teams.  Teams spend a LOT of collective hours putting in time testing and building.  So if they win one big tournament and there are several others within a month or two, many times they ask for their key information to be withheld for a little bit until the summer con season winds down.  Does anyone think that after Gencon Saturday, teams like Meandeck and Shortbus won't spill the beans?  No.  But teams that won't be at Gencon, like many of the European players, probably will post on this site just like they always have cuz 99% won't be at Origins/SCG/Gencon due to being on the other side of the planet.

So in summary, this is my take:

- if you are a team member and you play a deck at a tournament, you can't feel entitled to be the prime source of your "tech" anymore, since you let it out into the public.  However, if you can convince the TO to not post your decklist, more power to you.
- if you are not on that team (whether you were at that tournament or not), you have no right or entitlement to see that person's decklist.  If the TO publishes them or someone else gets the info and pushes it out, that's their call.

Note that this says nothing about whether any of that is "healthy for the format" or not.  If people constantly horded their deckbuilding/tuning ideas, obviously, there would be a huge gap between the have and have nots that would lead to a decline in popularity, not the increase we've seen.

The fact that many people on teams that do well still write articles and have excellent discussions (see articles by Steve M, JP, the Shortbus 7/10 thread, etc) seems to show that teams identify 1 or 2 tournaments a year that they "stock up" for, other than that, it's pretty much out in the open after a tournament or two...

Bill

PS I'm not part of any team.
Logged

Team Laptop

I hate people.  Yes, that includes you.
I'm bringing sexy back
Moxlotus
Teh Absolut Ballz
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2199


Where the fuck are my pants?

moxlotusgws
View Profile
« Reply #99 on: June 22, 2004, 12:37:58 pm »

Quote from: Triple_S
Even if a deck wins there is no obligation for it to be released.  Innovation will still occur since the members of the community who play in the high profile events will see the decks with their own eyes and will make the adjustments they need to make based on this eye witness and (subsequential) anecdotal evidence.  I believe this was said by someone else in another thread (I can't remember who to give proper credit) but I believe that a number of people are upset that the format has changed so that many of the highest profile players do their deck development on teams instead of on TMD/BD.  While this must be frustrating, it should also serve as incentive for you to bump your game up another notch.  Should high profile events have decklists made public after the fact?  Sure.  Am I going to release my decklist after SCG?  Not a chance.  If it comes out it will be due to SCG publishing it on their own.

and why do you play a game if not to win?  Sure I like to have fun playing but I have a helluva lot more fun winning with my friends instead of losing.  I'd much rather win and let you think you are in 1997 than lose and let the format "develop".


Yes the innovation will continue, in that area.  What about areas across the country or world though?  Don't we hope for an "ideal meta" across the world?  How long did we mock the "lacking of wastelands" in Europe?  This is one of the reasons why for T1 in the US the NE is the hot spot.  For so long there were tournaments there where they could see other decks while here in the Iowa, Chicago and Milwaulkie area the meta is composed of a lot of crappy decks.  If decklists are announced, the information can spread across the globe and we can have an actual Type 1 Metagame.

I would like to say that I am on a team also.
Logged

Cybernations--a free nation building game.
http://www.cybernations.net
Triple_S
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 501


Father to Future JSS Champion

three3deuce
View Profile
« Reply #100 on: June 22, 2004, 12:42:13 pm »

An actual type 1 world wide metagame is not of interest for me, my interest is the performance of the team I am a member of.
Logged

Team Shortbus--newly reconstituted

Kicking you in the ovaries since 1975.

 Team Short Bus: bastard covered bastards with bastard filling
MarkPharaoh
Basic User
**
Posts: 392


Ghost of T1

MruthyuMOTL
View Profile Email
« Reply #101 on: June 22, 2004, 12:43:24 pm »

Quote
and why do you play a game if not to win? Sure I like to have fun playing but I have a helluva lot more fun winning with my friends instead of losing. I'd much rather win and let you think you are in 1997 than lose and let the format "develop".


I think this was directed to my post so i'll respond.  You misunderstood my post I think.  It's fine if you want to win, but if you want to win so much as to hold decklists and tech as much as possible just to win more, why don't you try that in other formats where you can make a whole lot more money?

I don't know about the rest of you, but I started playing T1 because it was the only real format that had the "over the kitchen counter feel".  But now with all this withholding decklist stuff and more and more people not sharing idea's that they find, that feeling is just slowly going away.  Do I play to win?  Hell yes, i'm probably the most competitive person you'll ever meet to be honest, i'm just not as competitive in T1 because of how laid back the players are.  I remember when me and my friend went to GM's Lotus tourney, even though we we're fightning for a Lotus, we were all kicking back, having good laughs and having fun, thats what I like about T1.  But with this witholding DLs, I think that type of stuff with just start to dissappear.
Logged

Dante
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1415


Netdecking better than you since newsgroup days

wdicks23
View Profile
« Reply #102 on: June 22, 2004, 12:48:49 pm »

[quote="Moxlotus
Yes the innovation will continue, in that area.  What about areas across the country or world though?  Don't we hope for an "ideal meta" across the world?  How long did we mock the "lacking of wastelands" in Europe?  This is one of the reasons why for T1 in the US the NE is the hot spot.  For so long there were tournaments there where they could see other decks while here in the Iowa, Chicago and Milwaulkie area the meta is composed of a lot of crappy decks.  If decklists are announced, the information can spread across the globe and we can have an actual Type 1 Metagame.

I would like to say that I am on a team also.[/quote]

Not sure what you're basing this on in Chicago, but in the last 2 workshop tournaments, most of the decks were top level decks - Hulk, 7/10, stax, fish, germbus, 2-land belcher, etc with only the odd "bad" deck.

@ MarkP - I think that "over the kitchen counter" attitude while playing is still possible to have while avoiding the "over the kitchen counter" (aka bad) level of competition.  See PTW's report, seemed like meandeck and shortbus were all having fun taunting each other while playing well..
Logged

Team Laptop

I hate people.  Yes, that includes you.
I'm bringing sexy back
Moxlotus
Teh Absolut Ballz
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2199


Where the fuck are my pants?

moxlotusgws
View Profile
« Reply #103 on: June 22, 2004, 12:55:48 pm »

@Dante:
I heard from my teammates Brian and Mat that Chicago was pretty good last time, but I was mostly referring to Milwaulkie and Iowa.

@Triple_S: Then we have 2 totally different goals and ideals for the Type 1 format.
Logged

Cybernations--a free nation building game.
http://www.cybernations.net
DeathByDreams
Basic User
**
Posts: 1


BleedTheFreak88
View Profile
« Reply #104 on: June 22, 2004, 01:17:47 pm »

I think that even though teams and individual players are withholding decklists it is still quite easy to see their newest tech. If you actually watch them play in a tournament you can probably see a good portion of thier sideboard or maindeck tech slots. Even reading other players reports they mention cards played against them and stratagies that shut their decks down.

The idea of having a deck completely concealed is flawed. If the deck ever sees any play outside of the team or playgroup someone is bound to find out. If a deck is competative and has secret tech in it the team has two options:
1) Conceal it from all the other members of the T1 community or
2) Wait until an appropriate time and play the deck in tournaments causing a high chance of having your card choices revealed.

The first idea is the most harmful to the community. The second idea I see no problem with. It is in the team's best interest to win with the tech they came up with. After it's been played a few times it really isn't very hard to figure out thier card choices and they would have no reason to conceal them any longer.
Logged

Team Potato Chip: Quitting Magic every 6 months since 2001
Triple_S
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 501


Father to Future JSS Champion

three3deuce
View Profile
« Reply #105 on: June 22, 2004, 01:32:03 pm »

If you want the over the counter type feel to things I would suggest playing 5 Color.
Logged

Team Shortbus--newly reconstituted

Kicking you in the ovaries since 1975.

 Team Short Bus: bastard covered bastards with bastard filling
MarkPharaoh
Basic User
**
Posts: 392


Ghost of T1

MruthyuMOTL
View Profile Email
« Reply #106 on: June 22, 2004, 01:40:19 pm »

lol, i'm just gonna sit back and laugh when paranoia and deception gets to a point where T1 starts to fall apart.
Logged

Jacob Orlove
Official Time Traveller of TMD
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 8074


When am I?


View Profile Email
« Reply #107 on: June 22, 2004, 01:42:17 pm »

Yeah, it's about time for this to get closed.
Logged

Team Meandeck: O Lord,
Guard my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile.
To those who slander me, let me give no heed.
May my soul be humble and forgiving to all.
Pages: 1 2 3 [4]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.043 seconds with 18 queries.