Worse Than Fish: the Reprise (aka WTF/r)

[Jacob Orlove]

After testing WTF for a while, I found that I really liked Brainstorm, but the creature mix just wasn't working for me. Without conclaves, though, I had a bit of room in the mana base, so I decided to add Red to the deck. Now, this list is preliminary, so I haven't put extensive testing into it. It does show some promise, though, especially since the mana is working out much better than I thought it might.

Since I get to run Lavamancer AND Boa, my creature base is awesome, even though I still can't figure out what's optimal for the last two creature slots (since I really need about 14 evasive creatures to run 4x curiosity). I'd like something with only a single colored mana in the cost, but there's not much that fits the bill.

Worse Than Fish: the Reprise (aka WTF/r):
4 River Boa
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Spiketail Hatchling
2 (creature)
1 Gorilla Shaman
4 Force of Will
2 Oxidize (I might cut one)
1 Stifle
4 Curiosity
4 Brainstorm
3 Null Rod
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta (could just as easily be strand or foothills, or a mix)
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald

As you can see, I had to go to 25 mana sources to accomodate the 3 moxen, but they've been great. Getting SOLID sources of red and green can sometimes be crucial, and the continuous acceleration is always nice. Lotus gives me three mana at once, but usually I'm better off with one extra mana turns 1 and 2 (and sometimes for the rest of the game). I'd like to fit a basic island, but the only thing I could possibly cut is maybe a Factory. The rest absolutely has to stay.

The deck (like all fish decks) has a pretty good game against control, although germbus's combination of strips and angels has me worried. With all the artifact hate main, and the ability to run naturalize, rack and ruin, AND artifact mutation (!) in the side, workshop decks are also a pretty decent matchup, although sundering titan is obviously a huge problem. And lavamancer and boa gives me a pretty good game against aggro. Null Rod + Force is about as strong as I can get vs. combo, although the SB can help out too. Overall, the deck looks well-positioned in the current metagame, especially since few of the top decks run wastelands, and almost none run Blood Moon or Back to Basics.

I've already mentioned some SB options, but other options include all the standard/techy stuff for Gay/r, and potentially some more green options. I'm really excited about Artifact Mutation, though, since it's SO MUCH TEMPO.

Well, that's the preliminary list--I'm looking for thoughts/comments, but I don't want a repeat of my WTF thread; if your post is terrible, I may just delete it (I don't want to post this in closed T1, since it's not really tested).

[Kerz]

Does 5 Strip + 4 Factory + 3 colors pose a mana problem? I would imagine this is the reason Gay/R isnt Gay/R/x.

Other than the possibly shaky manabase, this deck looks really promising. Red adds a ton of tempo cards, as you said, and should improve the deck infinitely.

[Sandster]

What about Cloud of Faeries? I thought they were a staple in Fish(they are in mine)

Cloud of Faeries is good because of Standstill.  Without Standstill, there really isn't a good reason to run them anymore.

I share Kerz's concern over the mana base.  White seems like a tempting color to splash into gay/r (for Meddling Mage, Swords, and Seal), but the main concern is the unstable mana base.  Furthermore, green seems weaker than white.

[Jacob Orlove]

Cloud of Faeries is a possibility, but it's not "free" off a mox turn 1, and it doesn't do that much to advance my game state, except make me that much more vulnerable to fire/ice. Since I'm running Brainstorm over Standstill, there should be something "bombier" to run in that slot.

As to the manabase: yeah, it's obviously not amazing, but brainstorm helps a ton. Gay/R can't really add a color, because they need to run Conclave and Standstill over more duals and brainstorm. I only have one fewer blue source than they do, as well (13 vs 14), and all of mine come into play untapped.

This deck can also mulligan a bit more aggressively than Gay/R and WTF could, which helps out a lot with the 10 colorless lands/2 off-color moxen problem.

On adding white: Meddling Mage is actually really weak in fish. It doesn't have evasion, and it can't get into combat with most creatures in the format. Boa is MUCH stronger on the board--regeneration is often very useful (especially against stuff like Fire/Ice), and islandwalk lets me get by even Wonder. Swords is decent, but it's just nowhere near as good as artifact mutation,  oxidize, and REB. Basically, whether you look at this as Gay/R with green or WTF with red, it's still better than either + White. Remember, white is a bad color.

And before anyone suggest black, that would basically mean playing Tog.

[PucktheCat]

I really like the red splash here.  Grim Lavamancer is just so good.

Swords is decent, but it's just nowhere near as good as artifact mutation, oxidize, and REB.

Here is where I am not sure I agree.  Oxidize vs. Swords favors Swords in my opinion because the deck already runs Null Rod.

I agree with you on Meddling Mage, though.  His lack of evasion hurts.  His ability is very strong in some matchups, weaker in others.

The Brainstorm vs. Standstill debate is played out I think.

Artifact Mutation looks like it could be amazing.

Do you feel like the blue count is getting a bit low?

Leo

[Hi-Val]

Two pretty bad ideas for those last slots were FTK and Call of the Herd. They're both higher on the curve, but with 3 moxes and other accel, they provide heavy beats. FTK in particular looks like a lot of fun. Or, um, you could run Kird Ape...

As long as you're using that Curiosity I sent you, I'm happy.

[Jacob Orlove]

Swords is decent, but it's just nowhere near as good as artifact mutation, oxidize, and REB.

Here is where I am not sure I agree.  Oxidize vs. Swords favors Swords in my opinion because the deck already runs Null Rod.

Do you feel like the blue count is getting a bit low?

Leo

Oxidize is actually really good, even with Null Rod. That was my experience with WTF, anyway. Swords would probably be decent, but now I have red for removal, and I can still run sigil/unsummon/drop of honey in the side.

The blue count isn't as high as it once was, but it seems tolerable. That's one reason why I'd like the last creature slot to be blue, and why I might cut that second Oxidize. I'm not sure what spell I'd want though. Maybe Fire/Ice?

For that last creature slot, it could be something with a 3cc, because I don't have to worry about standstill, and I have moxes to accelerate it out. If Hystrodon morphed for 2G, for example, I would probably run that.

Edit: FTK isn't a bad idea for the board, actually. I'll test Calls, although I wish there was something good AND blue.

[b4r0n]

How about Serendib Efreet? 3cc, blue, with evasion, and the drawback isn't even that bad. Would that be a viable option?

BTW, I really like the looks of this deck. I'll probably do some testing with it; it appears to be very solid.

[firebird365]

It's sort of scrubby, but Serendib Efreet is a solid body for 3cc that evades and is blue. Would that fit the bill?

edit: sarnath'd

[Jacob Orlove]

Serendib seems a little weak. One damage to me each turn adds up, and the only non-1/1 flyers that it trumps are rootwalla and aquamoeba. I'd almost rather run Frenetic Efreet, except I'm terrible with coin flips.

Edit: this was my response to a PM suggestion of Dryad, but it should go in the thread too:

Dryad is indeed a consideration now, but it just doesn't seem like the right fit for the deck. I might test out a U/g/r dryad deck at some point, but if I'm going to be running only 2, then there should be something that fits better. Seriously, I've just found boa to really be amazing in fish, and I don't think dryad can fill the same role.

Another way to look at it: Dryad would mean changing my draw engine from brainstorm + curiosity to brainstorm + something else, which would probably make my deck into just a suboptimal build of something. With the curiosity, though, the deck can succeed as itself, if that makes any sense.

[PucktheCat]

My testing experience with Flametongue (and Control Magic, which it resembles) was not very favorable.  You may find otherwise though.

Oxidize isn't bad by any means, but I think Swords is probably better.  I think your creature base is better though.

How much have you tested the mana base?  Perhaps I am just a masochistic deck builder, but I liked more Fetches to ensure first turn Red second turn Green (white in my case).

What made you include the single Mox Monkey.  PTW's lists?  I ask because I recently made the exact same change to my list (cutting two Mages) and haven't looked back.

Leo

[Yare]

First, I'd like to say that I really like the list you posted.  Very impressive.

I noticed in your original post that you stated that nothing else could leave the manabase, sans factory.  Do you imply here that running a budget version is not viable?  If you were to attempt to make a budget build of this deck (i.e., one the doesn't run moxen) what would you suggest for the manabase?

What are your top sideboarding choices?  Just the same as has been beat to death in other fish threads or anything a little different due to the nature of the build?

What have you been thinking for those two creature slots?

Just as a suggestion, have you considered Escape Artist?  I'm not crazy about this, but he will get through and you can bounce him if you'd want to for some reason. It is also a wizard, so if you felt compelled to use Voidmage Prodigy again somehow, he fits the bill.  Again, just a suggestion; I haven't played the deck and don't know how effective or ineffective this might be.  You'd probably be better off just running Flying Men or Serendib.

[Jacob Orlove]

The one reason I'm even considering flamtongue is that I have all 3 of those moxes, so it's likely to come out turn 3. Even so, it may not be worth it.

The mana base is still subject to testing, but I'm not sure if I'd rather make room for a 5th fetch, or the basic island.

I've heard a lot of good things about Shaman from Gay/R players, and PTW certainly knows what he's doing. That's why I feel like I can cut one Oxidize.

Obviously, a budget version would be possible. You'd cut the moxes and library for probably some basics and a fetch. Maybe 3 delta 2 foothills, and 1 each island, forest, mountain, with the rest as is. I'm not sure exactly--you'd have to test it out. It would be more stable, though.

I'm not sure at all about the SB yet. I have a bunch of cards I'm looking at, but I'm not sure which ones really belong.

Most of these creatures I've at least looked at (<3 mtgpics), except for call, because it's a sorcery and didn't show up on my search. Now it's pretty much time to just test different things.

[Prism]

if people are so worried about aggro or exalted angels, couldn't gilded drake be considered? it fits fish's curve perfectly, and can be reused if people decide to run them with sigil or waterfront bouncer.

[injectilio]

Looks great as always Jacob but as for your two >3cc creature slots have you considered any of the blue shadow creatures? Thalaklos Seer/Mistfolk/Scout all seem to fit the deck pretty well. The Seer is a heavy blue commitment and the Scout is a little against your stratgy so the Mistfolk seem to be the best fit. I'm not really sure how shadow would play out in the normal t1 meta but it seems as though that having something that they have no alternative means of dealing with other than removal or just winning seems very beneficial.

[Marton]

OK well, I just did a small brainstorming (OK, in fact I just looked up at my list of playable type 1 cards which I'm building for posting up someday, it really saves some searching time).

here's the brainstorming results, with unfortunately no developed afterthoughts on the cards:

cloud of fairies (probably has no place without standstill, as said earlier)
voidmage prodigy (do we really want to sacrifice grim lavamancers?)
man'o war (probably too costly for the effect)
ophidian (probably too costly and useless extra draw card)
serendib efreet (already mentioned)
flying men
gorilla shaman (already listed, but it's just so damn good)
flametongue kavu (probably too costly as already discussed)
slith firewalker (probably not good with the cc and lack of burn, tho I will mention that this can get huge)
jackal pup
mogg fanatic (good anti welder, not great with curiosity)
kird ape (do we have enough forests ?)
goblin tinkerer (do we need this in addition of gorilla shaman? I guess not, but I will still mention it in case.)
viashino heretic (probably too costly)
birds of paradise (unfortunately doesn't works with curiosity)
call of the herd
skyshroud elite (this or kird ape?)
troll ascetic (probably too costly)
razorfin hunter (actually, i think I have found a winner !!! it works with curiosity ! The only problem is that it's not single color.)
quirion driad
wild mongrel
basking rootwalla

the best fit that I can see for now is razorfin hunter, the advantage being that it's the ultimate evasion and that it works with curiosity (doesn't says combat damage). The drawback is of course the cc. I still believe it's the best fit that I could find. The plus is that you can throw it with force of will. I guess that if you really want to get this out asap, in order to get the curiosity online asap, then the best fit that I see for now is flying men.

[Toad]

Yay @ -4 Standstill +4 Brainstorm.
<3 Jacob.

[PucktheCat]

Jacob,

Is evasion on your "required" list for the 2 remaining creature slots?  You have the same evasive creature base that Gay/r gets by with, River Boa substituting for Cloud.  On the other hand, evasion isn't ONLY useful for Curiosity.

My inclination for those two slots is to either creatures that are "more of the same" like Flying Men, a second Gorilla Shaman, Razorfin Hunter etc. or to bite the bullet and run something big and bomby there.  The second makes sense to me because I think it is fair to say that when you exchanged Standstill for Brainstorm you gained an ability to take a situational card into stride and shuffle it away and you lost shear volume of cards which will leave you with more mana available in the middle of the game.

If you do go with a bigger man it may not be so important whether Curiosity is good with him or not because 1) the big man should end the game quickly anyway and 2) the big man is already offering a potential tempo boost to an opponent with removal, add Curiosity and suddenly Cunning Wish starts looking like efficient removal (contrast with Cloud of Faeries where if it hits once with Curiosity there is pretty much no way for removal to be efficient against the pair).

The above is just theory, obviously, but it suggests to me that you might at least try Call of the Herd.  Or you could splash black for Phyrexian Negator . . .

Leo

[wonkey_donkey]

Why not blow some dust off Morphling

Because it's awful. Really awful. More specifically, it's 5 mana for a 3/3 that is not desperately effective at anything other than eating up any mana you may have available to try and keep it alive. Not the way to play any given deck, really.

I like the idea of using Call of the Herd, though. Could you run those 2 and then cut an oxidize for another monkey? I don't think that would give you too high a threat density for the deck's aims, and it goes some of the way to helping out the dilemma of whether to run something that fits the mana curve better or something slightly bigger and bulkier. Another idea (naturally untested) that I had whilst brainstorming would be something like blistering firecat in the creature slots - can come down as a morph on turn 2, unmorph turn 3 (although possibly 1 turn later in each case depending on wasteland stuff etc) and that's a quick 7 damage that becomes more lavamancer fodder. Probably no good, but just a thought.

Tom

[HuntedWumpus]

First off i really enjoyed looking at the list and the entire post, Some quality, WOOT. On the last two creature slots, I don't see why call of the heard is not an option. Granted he doesn't have evasion, but as a 3/3 he can help punch through some large roadblocks. Flash back, costing only 1 more is would also be easily playable. Other choice's I see are of course razorfin hunter, adding some reusable removal, and amazing possibility with curiosity.

Both of those choices are off color, but I don't see that being an issue with 8 duals combine with fetch, but Blue offers several choices, the obvious being flying men (over cloud in this build). I don't really think serendib fits the bill here, nor does the voidmage.

Personally I think the build would be happier with some meat. I for one would like some more details to why you are blatantly opposed to Call of the heard.

[Hi-Val]

Thinking again, I came across Wild Mongrel, which isn't bad at all when you consider that it can get really huge for a turn and feeds the LavaMANcers. It doesn't have evasion and it doesn't trample/fly, but it's as close to green creature removal/running Psychatog as you can get. I don't know how effective it is without Team Lizard or madness cards or even being a 2-of, but it pitches junk you don't need, has bad synergy with LOA and is psychologically terrifying.

[Yare]

Obviously, a budget version would be possible. You'd cut the moxes and library for probably some basics and a fetch. Maybe 3 delta 2 foothills, and 1 each island, forest, mountain, with the rest as is. I'm not sure exactly--you'd have to test it out. It would be more stable, though.

Is there any reason you couldn't run Island + 2 Taiga?  It seems to me that having the dual is better, and running a few more duals isn't going to significantly hurt the vulnerability of the manabase (it's already vulnerable).  This could potentially be especially good, in that you can keep mana open to regenerate boa, yet can also activate Lavamancer at end of turn.

This is Jacob, responding here to avoid clogging the thread. Taiga is definitely an option, but now that I think about it, City of Brass might be good too--if Sundering Titan is an issue, anyway.

[yodoblec]

Since there is Brainstorm in the deck and 8 lands to fetch, I could actually see 5 or 6 fetches being very useful. I feel that if you did that it'd be easier to run Call of the Herd as the extra 2 creatures. The cards I would take out for the fetches would be a moxen, just cause I'm gonna be budgety about it.

Sweet deck it looks very promising.

[ChazzyChaz]

Well forgive me but what is it that makes brainstorm a better choice than Standstill.  I think your deck is neat and particularly like the river boa however this is the one thing that is bothering me. While brainstorm smooths out decks and makes them run very consistant it is not 'draw'.  When you have a deck like fish that can develop the board early standstill is high octane jet fuel.  To keep a deck going, any deck, you need a draw engine. This is one thing that standstill is and brainstorm is not.  By replacing brainstorm with standstill you run into the problem of stalling out.  I see the curiosity but still.

Just my 2 cents.

Chaz

[Jacob Orlove]

I for one would like some more details to why you are blatantly opposed to Call of the heard.

When did I ever say that? Call is actually looking like a decent possiblity.

The problem is that with brainstorm over standstill, my cards have to be better on a one-for-one basis than they were before. That means I'll almost certainly have to run a three-drop in that slot; while it's not going to be too great if I have to tap out with factories, boas, or lavamancers on the table, the card should be a solid threat. I'll just have to avoid walking into drains.

Right now, Call seems strong, but I'm also looking at Frenetic Efreet, because it only dies half as often as it should, and it's blue and flies. I think it has the edge over Serendib. Razorfin Hunter was always a possibility, and there are a few more options too. I don't know if I'll be able to test much this week, but I'll try to narrow it down and see if the manabase continues to work.

[Blitzbold]

In my opinion Red is only a splash in this WTF variant, so the additional creatures should not be red. Though I really like Frenetic Efreet since they made him - and even more since the introduction of the stack   - he is Red, too, and therefore should not make the cut. Additionally, though only dying half of the time he ought to and pitching to FoW, he ist sill only a 2/1 for 3cc. Call of the Herd is nice, but also nice as a target for Mana Drain. Another creature that came to my mind is Gaea's Skyfolk, a 2/2 flier for GU. Given it's evasion and the low cc, this can come down as early as turn one and also likes the Curiosity a lot. This is of course not that big 'bomb' creature, but what do you think?

[Marton]

They made an errata on frenetic efreet. You can't just keep doing it's ability until you win the flip, making it an indestructible creature. Here's the official rule text:


Frenetic Efreet

Creature -- Efreet
2/1
Flying
: If Frenetic Efreet is in play, flip a coin. If you win the flip, Frenetic Efreet phases out. If you lose the flip, sacrifice Frenetic Efreet.

I know. That's why I said it only dies half the time. The other half of the time, it'll phase out.
-Jacob

EDIT:
Jacob, this was mostly a reply to blitzbold comment:
"Though I really like Frenetic Efreet since they made him - and even more since the introduction of the stack"

[Sandster]

Another creature that came to my mind is Gaea's Skyfolk, a 2/2 flier for GU. Given it's evasion and the low cc, this can come down as early as turn one and also likes the Curiosity a lot. This is of course not that big 'bomb' creature, but what do you think?

Skyfolk was actually the first creature I thought of, but I dismissed her because 1) The deck has enough at 2cc, 2) multicolored cards strains the mana base (though this point isn't too important), and 3) She just doesn't DO anything except carry Curiosity, as task more suited for Lavamancer or River Boa anyways.  Still, she is probably a decent filler when all else fails, though I still think Call of the Herd is superior.

[HuntedWumpus]

Sorry Jacob, I took this . . .

Most of these creatures I've at least looked at (<3 mtgpics), except for call, because it's a sorcery and didn't show up on my search. Now it's pretty much time to just test different things.

as meaning you had  pretty well ruled out call of the herd. My mistake.
Ill like call of the herd in this deck very much. First he as an huge 3/3 beatstick, it may force an opponent to use removal on the token, rather than the boa or lavamancer that could potentially be abused with curiosity. Also upon being dealt with, Call gets flashed back, which is kinda nice.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Call looks like a pretty good option.  It certainly is powerul, and the p/t efficiency+ flashback card advantager is great.  One thing you might have to think about is unsummon/sigel in the board of other fish decks, which could be annoying.

About the oxidise/rod thing we need to remember that oxidise can handle some things rod can't, like artifacts with triggered/static abilitites, even though they are less common in the current meta.  I think that I prefer sticking with x2 oxidise.  It's like the second-biggest reason to run green besides boa.

Flying men hasn't been talked about that much.  He is pitchable to fow, flys for curiosity, and is a 1-drop.  However, with the addition of red for grima lavamacer men kinda loses attractiveness simply because lavamancer is a 1-drop and good curiosity target, even if unpitchable.

I like the idea of adding another shamen simply because they are godly.  Early game your oppoent must deal with it or have their boad development significantly stunted, so your other dudes get less negative attention.  Late game landing one can destry half of your opponent's mana base if you havn't dropped a null rod yet.

Jacob again. Stuff like oxidize and shaman is very meta dependant. I guess in some metas (and here I'm thinking of Europe), running two of each might be viable. If they're useful, run them.