Worse Than Fish: the Reprise (aka WTF/r)

[Swanky]

I've been playing around with Frenetic Efreet in a more aggressive build of U/r Fish, and I've found it to be mediocre at best.  He may not be the best choice in a trichromatic build; the three slot should be inhabited by something that can truly speed up your damage clock.  For that reason, I feel Call of the Herd is worth testing.

On the other hand, how often are coins checked by DCI judges?  If you were to bring in a loaded coin, the Efreet's value spikes significantly.

Not that I advocate cheating, of course.  *Dodges incoming Brick of Morality(TM)*

[yodoblec]

I've been pondering about the 2 creature slots left a lot. I thought it would be best for it to be a 3-drop, and then I thought about Cunning Wish. (Don't know why, doesn't get creatures) Then I thought about Living Wish. Here's some pros to it.

-You'd have a small toolbox SB
-You'd be able to fetch creatures which suit your mana and needs
-Easy to cast
-Ability to have more than 1 Mox Monkey which is huge!

I don't know if it'd work better or not, haven't played enough games, so somebody help me out here.
The problem is that I really need all those SB slots. If a bunch end up being creatures, then it might be an option, but even then it seems a little slow and weak.[/color]

[Matt]

The problem is that... my cards have to be better on a one-for-one basis than they were before.

the card should be a solid threat. I'll just have to avoid walking into drains.

Quirion Dryad, I tell you! Everything you ask of the slot, it does.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

The main reason not to play dryad is the fact that this is a fish deck, not GAT, and without the heavy amount of draw spells and berserk, simply can't abuse dryad effectivly, IMO.  Also, running only 2, the chances of getting one early (which is about the only time you want to cast it) are not very good.  The 2 creature slot calls for a creature that is powerful but not good early on, which is why Call seems to fit the bill.

[Gabethebabe]

If you are not playing Standstill and not playing Disk, are Mishra´s Factories still good?

You´re playing a 3-color deck and 10 of your mana sources provide colorless.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Yes, factories are godly.  Loa is just so broken it's a given, and the 5 stip effects are also completely necessary.

I think that testing will determine whether or not the mana base needs fixing.  3 colours isn't that much 4 t1 anyways, and factories can often suck wastelands away from your coloured sources anyways, as long as you aren't showing visible signs of mana screw (or suck removal away from creatures, etc.)  Plus, with curiosity, but more importantly, brainstorm, the deck should be able to draw it's way out of screw.  Also helping is the fact that so far spells requiring more than 1 of a single colour of mana have been avoided.  Factories are quite versatile and are a recurring threat that must be dealt with.

[Phele]

Yes, factories are godly.

That's not really a point. I'm totally with Gathe on this point: Without standstill there are no synergie-reasons left to keep facs in the list. Wouldn't some more shuffle effects, meaning a few more fetchlands fit better to strengthen the Brainstorms? Without Standstill by the way I can't believe that this deck is any better than Gay/r: It looks more like an old shool zoo with Curiousity for which I thought it would be consensus that it has been outdated because of it's speed lack.

[Jacob Orlove]

If you are not playing Standstill and not playing Disk, are Mishra´s Factories still good?

You´re playing a 3-color deck and 10 of your mana sources provide colorless.

Sometimes I'll get hands that I have to mulligan because of 2x factory or something, but generally the deck doesn't need more than 2 duals in play. I think I need about the number of lands I have now, to ensure that I get enough mana in my opening hands, but it's really nice to have my extra lands do something useful.

Plus, factories are very strong cards.

With that said, if I want to run calls, I may have to add lotus, which means making room in the mana base somewhere.

Edit: also, I want to test Leo's mana configuration (3 trop, 3 volc, 6 fetch). It seems like it might be better. Edit again: it certainly is better.

Also, this is NOT a zoo deck in the sense than people mean (i.e., I'm not playing 3-color sligh). Zoo was all about damage; this deck is all about tempo.

[PucktheCat]

Seriously, Factories are the most overlooked card in Gay/x decks.  Everyone says these decks just role over to 3/3 creatures, but a single Mishra's can trade with one and two can stop an army of them.  Mishra's + Lavamancer brings down some truly huge creatures in this deck and without them matchups like U/G Madness, etc. go from tough to impossible.

Also, look at the deck's casting costs - a ton of them have colorless mana in the cost.  If you build a deck in type one with spells with colorless requirements and your deck has only colored sources you have a sub-optimal deck, because you could easily replace some of the colored sources with colorless sources and get more utility out of them.  Hulk does that by running off-color Moxen, this deck does it by running Mishra's, but the idea is the same.

Leo

[lilmidget]

how about try running [card]uktabi orangutan[/card] or its newer version [card]viridian shaman[/card]? that way you could potentially cut the 2nd oxidize.

[Jacob Orlove]

Oxidize is really good because destroying a mox for G is efficient, and destroying anything big is even better. Throwing it on a 2/2 makes it ineffective against non-artifact decks, which means Uktabi only has a place in the SB. However, all the instant options are just better there. It's not worth it.

[lilmidget]

how is spiketail hatchling working for everyone? i find that i am pitching it to FoW more often than i am actually playing it. plus, it is very anti-synergistic with curiosity becuase of its sac abiliity.

[Nastaboi]

Spiketail's fine, the reason you are pitching it to FoW is that you have only 19 blue cards in whole deck. It's not as good as 'Mancer or Boa, it's 'only' the third best creature for this deck. And if you have to sack it curious, you've gotten at least one card from it, so it's no card disadvantage.

I tested the deck a bit and fell in love with CotHs. I had no real broblems with manabase (<3 Brainstorm), but sometimes I found myself with FoW in hand and no blue card to pitch, which was very annoying. Of course you just draw shit twice a day, but still...

For those who don't own blue power, I recommend to run couple of Dazes instead.

[yodoblec]

It just doesn't feel right not playing Cloud of Faeries in a Fish deck. You all say that the reason it's played is for Standstill, but it works nice with Quirion Dryad too. It allows for more spells to be played thus allowing the Dryad to get fat like it wants. The card I've taken out for them is Spiketail Hatchling since it doesn't work as good without Daze around.

[Jacob Orlove]

It just doesn't feel right not playing Cloud of Faeries in a Fish deck. You all say that the reason it's played is for Standstill, but it works nice with Quirion Dryad too. It allows for more spells to be played thus allowing the Dryad to get fat like it wants. The card I've taken out for them is Spiketail Hatchling since it doesn't work as good without Daze around.

The problem with that is that the faeries are at their best when you play them before your other spells, but the same is true of dryad. You can't have it both ways, and waiting a turn to cast the faeries means you lose most of the benefits of their "reduced" casting cost.

The other problem with Dryad is that this deck doesn't actually cast that many spells, especially after the two-drops come out. Dryad just doesn't grow quickly enough to be great--although that wasn't based on extensive work, just some minimal testing.

Cloud just isn't good enough to be worth the draw you spend on it. Spiketail is, even if you do have to pitch it to Force. Brainstorm and Curiosity are ridiculously good cards, but you'll have to pitch them to force too--it doesn't mean they're bad. It's just that the blue spell that gets cast last (hatchling) suffers unfairly at the hands of FoW. If you don't get the Mancer/Boa draw, you'll be glad to have them.

[Jacob Orlove]

Okay, after some testing, I really prefer the six-fetch manabase. However, my SB does favor red to some extent, so I may have to go back up to 4 volcanics. Right now, it's
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island

The Calls are working out well for now. I need to test Lotus at some point, but it looks like the only card to cut for it would be a mox, which isn't that great.

I cut one Oxidize for a Fire/Ice, to go up to 20 blue spells. I'm just not a fan of Daze in here, especially with the Calls and all the mana my creatures are soaking up (1/turn for mancers, boas, and factories).

Here's the SB I'm currently testing. It's got a few weird ideas.

2 Sigil of Sleep
2 Razorfin Hunter
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Stifle
1 Fire / Ice
2 Naturalize
1 Rack and Ruin
2 Artifact Mutation

I'm most unsure about the Naturalizes, because I don't have that much room to bring stuff in against artifact decks, and I need to keep most of my blue spells in.

[MarkPharaoh]

Jacob, What decks do you bring Sigil in against?

[Unearthly]

I've been tooling around with this deck a lot and especially the sideboard.
Here is what I been thinking.  My MD is mostly the same as JO's, but I put a lot of thought into the sideboard

// Mana
    1 Library of Alexandria
    1 Strip Mine
    4 Wasteland
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Flooded Strand
    4 Mishra's Factory
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Ruby


// Creatures
    4 River Boa
    4 Grim Lavamancer
    4 Spiketail Hatchling
    1 Gorilla Shaman
    2 Call of the Herd


// Spells
    3 Null Rod
    4 Force of Will
    1 Stifle
    4 Curiosity
    1 Time Walk
    1 Ancestral Recall
    2 Oxidize
    4 Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Blood Moon (!!)
SB: 2 Artifact Mutation
SB: 2 Fire/Ice
SB: 2 Sigil of Sleep
SB: 2 Firestorm
SB: 1 Stifle

Ok, now how I sideboard.


Hulk /  4c Control      
+ 3 Red Elemental Blast      
+ 3 Blood Moon   
- 3 Null Rod         
- 2 Oxidize   
- 1 Stifle

Ok, now you might have wondered about those blood moons and how they DESTROY my mana base.  Why do I run them? It destroys theirs MORE.  4c Control was indeed the match I was thinking...'I need a good sideboard card for them, even REB doesn't do everything I want it to do.'  So what ruins both 4c and Hulk? Blood Moon.  All that I need is a creature or two down before i cast it or a lavamancer in hand.  Best part, you can still cast mox monkey to eat whatever moxes (ie: color) they have.


Draw 7      
+ 3 Red Elemental Blast   
+ 3 Blood Moon
+ 1 Stifle   
- 2 Call of the Herd   
- 2 Oxidize         
- 2 Curiosity
- 1 River Boa   

This matchup is a bad one and I think that is shown through my desparate sideboarding attempt.  Red Elemental Blast counters their draw 7s, stifle can stop storm, and blood moon shuts down a very large amount of their color.  As for what I take out, Call of the Herd is far too slow for this matchup, as is river boa.  River Boa is only a 2/1 to the draw 7 player and not a true threat.  To win this matchup, I need to stop his onslaught of threats, then coast to the victory while keeping him down.  This is also why I took out the curiosities.  They won't help in the first few turns very often since I need that mana for REB / Stifle, so they made way for the more powerful sideboard cards.


Belcher
+ 2 Artifact Mutation
+ 1 Stifle
- 2 Call of the Herd
- 1 Curiosity

This matchup is a bit of a toss up.  It's all about mulliganing agressively towards the FoW, but having 2 stifle allows me to keep a stifle/artifact destrutction hand.  I took out the 2 Call and 1 Curiosity because they were too slow for the matchup.


GAT
+ 3 Red Elemental Blast
+ 3 Blood Moon
+ 2 Sigil of Sleep
- 3 Null Rod
- 2 Oxidize
- 1 Call of the Herd
- 1 Stifle
- 1 Gorilla Shamen

This is another one of those decks where Blood Moon is practically a win.  Red Elemental Blast is an easy inclusion and 2 Sigils work very well against the small creature base.


Gay Red / Mirror
+ 3 Red Elemental Blast
+ 2 Fire/Ice
+ 2 Firestorm
- 3 Null Rod
- 2 Oxidize
- 1 Stifle
- 1 Gorilla Shamen

For the mirror, it's time to bring in the burn.  It's all about taking control of the board with creatures while taking away theirs.  Firestorm can work wonders, but be careful casting it without backup.  Taking out mostly dead cards, with only stifle being somewhat helpful, I'd rather have the other sideboard cards.


Food Chain Goblins
+ 2 Fire/Ice
+ 2 Sigil of Sleep
+ 2 Firestorm
- 3 Null Rod
- 2 Oxidize
- 1 Stifle

Food Chain can be a very bad matchup, they have lots of small red men and all that damage can add up fast.  The 4 burn spells shine here as well, with firestorm being the MVP.  Simply keep some cards in hand and you can decimate their board.  Sigils are also great at keeping their creatures at bay once I have established some board position.


Control Slaver
+ 3 Red Elemental Blast
+ 2 Arifact Mutation
- 2 Call of the Herd
- 2 Curiosity
- 1 Stifle

I like both spells that I am siding in for this matchup, but I must say that it was very/ hard taking out the two curiosities.  If anyone else has any ideas, tell me, but I need REB to counter FoW, Thirst and Tinker, and Artifact mutation to take out their artifacts.  I don't see what else to cut.


Stax
+ 2 Artifact Mutation
- 2 Call of the Herd

Stax is still out there, and this matchup is very simple to sideboard for.  Bring in the artifact hate and take out the slow creatures.



One thing you might notice is that I sideboard out the Calls a lot.  While this is true, I wouldn't cut them simply because there isn't much else I would put in the maindeck, and they help out the aggro matches as well.  I can put Calls in the maindeck but I can't put REB in can I?  The only other consideration might be Razorfin Hunter, but I like the fat that Call produces.

[PucktheCat]

Unearthly: Do you think that the 4CC and Hulk matchups are bad enough to take a gamble like Blood Moon?  Afterall, these decks usually run more basics and Moxen than you do.  Generally, I thought the maindeck was supposed to be mostly good enough to handle these decks, with perhaps a couple small changes (like REB against Hulk).

Also, why not a 4th Null Rod in the board?  It is pretty much essential to taking on Draw-7 and Belcher, and it is very important against artifact decks as well, especially since most of them use Triskelion for removal.

Leo

[JDawg13]

Unearthly: Do you think that the 4CC and Hulk matchups are bad enough to take a gamble like Blood Moon?  Afterall, these decks usually run more basics and Moxen than you do.  Generally, I thought the maindeck was supposed to be mostly good enough to handle these decks, with perhaps a couple small changes (like REB against Hulk).

I worked with Unearthly on helping decide the sideboard, so I think I should be able to shine a light on why we decided on everything in the board.  While it is true that Hulk and 4CControl run more basics, they really have to know Blood Moon is coming and fetch the basics ahead of time, or they will probably be stuck with what they have.  As for the extra moxen they have, it really isn't a problem against 4CControl, as their win condition has WW in it's casting cost.  Without the lands, the only way it can be cast is off a Lotus.  Null Rod helps with this small problem.  I can attest to the fact that Blood Moon is there much more so because of 4CControl than for Hulk.  The maindeck can usually handle Hulk on it's own, but Blood Moon and REB can definitely help.  I think a little more testing will show whether or not Blood Moon deserves to come in against Hulk, but it should always have a place in our board for the 4CControl matchup, which is really not a good one.

Also, why not a 4th Null Rod in the board?  It is pretty much essential to taking on Draw-7 and Belcher, and it is very important against artifact decks as well, especially since most of them use Triskelion for removal.

The 4th Null Rod was something we discussed and dismissed rather early on in our construction of the sideboard.  Against Draw7 we already have a ton of stuff coming in and a 4th Null Rod sort of seems like overkill.  Similarly for Belcher, there's a ton of hate that we pack in the board, so a 4th Null Rod is not entirely necessary.  The more hate we pack for combo decks (which aren't as commonly played around here) the less room we have for everyone else.  As for the other artifact decks, we still have a bunch of artifact kill which makes having the Null Rod out almost unnecessary.  I for one would much rather Artifact Mutate a Triskelion than let it sit there under a Null Rod.  And with the three Null Rods main, you still have a good chance of seeing one, along with the artifact hate that comes in.  Four Null Rods seems unnecessary to me.

[PucktheCat]

I for one would much rather Artifact Mutate a Triskelion than let it sit there under a Null Rod.

Would you really?  That seems poor to me.  You would lose two creatures and not get any tokens.

Unless you have a Null Rod, of course.

Why is the 4cC matchup so bad?  Their win condition is better than Hulks against you, but it is much easier to keep off the board.  Any one of various combinations of Grim Lavamancer, Wasteland, and Null Rod can make it very hard for them to get an Angel in play.

Leo

[Jacob Orlove]

Gah, I forgot to include Null Rod #4. That's what happens when I try to recreate and modify my board from memory. I'll have to see how I can squeeze one in.

The Sigils are an experiment right now (along with the Razorfins). I'll see how useful they are against stuff like madness or other aggro (and possibly Dragon).

Blood Moon seems like an exceptionally poor idea, especially if you aren't going to make room for even one basic island. If U/r doesn't need it, then neither do we. They also make Boas really bad.

You side out double Curiosity a lot, which seems like a bad plan to me. There should be better ways to get those cards into the deck--and if not, then maybe you should cut a REB from the board. If you have to cut a bunch of creatures, maybe one Curiosity could go (although even that is iffy), but definitely not two.

One problem with SBing that I've noticed is that there are only a few noncreature spells you can cut. This means that you need to bring in "creature substitutes" if you want to SB in/out more than a couple cards. In my board, that's currently Razorfins and Artifact Mutations. If you're bringing those in, you can cut stuff like the Calls, because you maintain threat density.

[jpmeyer]

Domineer?

[Unearthly]

Hmm, I guess I agree with you guys now on Blood Moon.  I still wouldn't mind something for the 4c match, maybe just side in the stifle for their wastelands? I'm not exactly sure.

To comment on your sideboard, I think 2 Naturalize + 1 Rack and Ruin + 2 Artifact Mutation + 1 Oxidize MD is far too much artifact kill.  I have 4 between the MD and SB and i feel that is the right amount.  6 seems a bit too much, unless you want the naturalize to hit enchantments?  In that case, what enchantment do you want to hit?  The only 'good' enchantment that you will ever need to naturalize is animate dead, and there are better cards than naturalize to fufill that role.

Blue Elemental Blast, what exactly are you playing this for?  Against Dragon, you could easily play the more versatile stifle or the 0cc Tormod's crypt.  Against goblins, Fire/Ice and Firestorm are much better choices, seeing as BEB doesn't hit the biggest in the aggro team, Piledriver.

What matches do you bring Razorfins in for?  They are good in the mirror, they can be good against FCG, I suppose, but they are slower than firestorm, which could allow you to take board position and overwhelm then.  Do you bring them in for any other matches?

[Jacob Orlove]

Naturalize is mostly for enchantments/randomness, which is why I wasn't sure about those slots. I may replace them, but I'm not entirely sure what with. Possibly a Shaman and something else.

Tormods isn't very good against Dragon because I really like Null Rod in that matchup--it means I know 90% of the time exactly how much mana they'll have next turn.

BeB is flexible enough to be decent against several decks, but I may cut one to make room for Null Rod #4. It's also nice to have something good versus several problem matchups (FCG and Dragon), that can also come in vs control, if I'm worried about REBs and FTKs.

I still have to test Firestorm out--it may eventually make it in.

In theory, Razorfins would come in when I side in the Sigils, and whenever I want to SB out Rods. I need to see if there's something better to do with those slots, though. I do like having SB creatures, because that way I can actually side out more than 2-3 cards.

Domineer and Legacy's Allure are also possibilities, but I'm not sure quite what they'd be good against.

[bebe]

Legacy's allure were used in both Fish and Landstill and one point. They can steal Fish in the mirror, Welders, Lavamancers, Rootwallas and a score of other threats. Dicemanx beat me up with the Allures in top eight when I was playing a U/r deck with Eels. They fell out of favor when a lot of higher casting cost creatures started to be incorporated in many builds. It is hard to steal Sundering Titans.

[PucktheCat]

Jacob,

I agree with you 100% about Crypt.  It is much better to take out a third of their mana base and bluff a Blast than simply make them wait until they can go off twice, which isn't that hard in Dragon.  You really need to be able to threaten them with removal or they will just play through anything you have.  The only problem is when they bring in Verdant Forces and you have a hand full of Blasts.  For that reason Naturalize seems like an anti-Dragon option as well.

Domineer looks interesting to me against artifact decks.  One of the big advantages of Null Rod is that it forces all the various Workshop decks out there into one basic mode: artifact fat beatdown backed by Welders.  Because of that sideboard creature kill is way better than it should be against things like Slaver.  The only problem with Domineer is that it doesn't answer Welder.

Heh, of course StP deals with all the things listed above quite well   .

God I wish I could figure out a way to play River Boa in Gay/r/w or StP in WTF/r   .

Leo

[Covetous]

On firestorm--I think it is great in the GayR SB, but without standstills, I feel that it isn't as good an option for this deck (not enough cards to pitch).  JO--if you take the naturalizes out of the SB, you could easily fit in null rod #4.  And, by the way, did you decide against maze of ith?  I see no mention of it here, but it seems like a good card vs. Tog.  I can't see why people are advocating blood moon for the SB here--in his initial post, JO said that this idea was viable ONLY because other decks weren't packing blood moon.  And, on the subject of dragon, sigil of sleep can very effectively deal with dragon if it hits play, as can unsummon if you choose to run it (these two cards are also decent vs. tog and 4c).

I also have another random question--why a single stifle MD?  Wouldn't it be better to have 2 or none?  Does the single random stifle come around at the right time often enough to make a difference?  If so, should you up the count to 2 using the spare oxidize slot?  

I'm also wondering why you dismissed serendib efreet so quickly...it's blue, it flies and it's a 3/4, which can block and kill an angel with some help from a 'mancer.  True, Call can flash back, but is the flashback worth the lack of evasion, pitchability, and 4 toughness?  Is the ping every turn the deciding factor, with 6 fetchlands and FoW?  I'm just trying to understand the rationale here.

[Squee]

I guess the reason Serendib got dismissed so quickly was because it isn't that great in the already unfavorable aggro matchup.  Against fast aggro the pings here and there from FoW and the 6 fetches add up.  With Call you still get the big body but no pain.  It also comes back for more later on and is great against control; not that Serendib isn't though.  

As for the random Stifle, it could sometimes lead your opponent to make suboptimal plays by playing around your single Stifle when you don't have it.  This in turn could lead them to walk right into another random 1-of like Oxidize or maybe Fire/Ice.  

Jacob never advocated the use of Blood Moon.  The deck's mana base could use all the help it can get and Blood Moon will help out the opponent's more than you.

[Magi]

*exhume*

Anyways, I wanted to bump this up earlier, but I decided to wait after our local tournament, so as to gain lots of "surprise factor".

I placed first with WTF/r. Here's my decklist:

TAmpon.dec

Beaters://
1x Gorilla Shaman
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Spiketail Hatchling
4x River Boa
2x Call of the Herd

Disruption://
4x Force of Will
2x Daze
2x Stifle
3x Null Rod

Draw://
4x Brainstorm
4x Curiosity
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Timewalk

Mana://
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Strip Mine
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra’s Factory
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
1x Island
3x Volcanic Island
3x Tropical Island

SB://
1x Stifle
1x Null Rod
3x Oxidize
3x Naturalize
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Maze of Ith

The sideboard reflects the metagame present.

I took some notes, they are in my tourney report thread :

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18454

This deck is amazing. It's so smooth and fluid. It also answers the long standing Brainstorm/Standstill debate.

Brainstorm, hands down.