Madness, still okay?

[Magi]

I've been working on Madness as of late. I played a whole bunch of games today, and since Madness hasn't been talked about since forever, I thought it would be okay to start a new thread.

Anyhoo, here's my test decklist. I played about 20 games today, 6-7 against Stax, 3-4 against Keeper and Tog, and a few against Belcher. All without sideboarding. Choices explained below.

Madness T1

Beaters://
4x Rootwalla
4x Aquamoeba
4x Mongrel
4x Arrogant Wurm
2x Wonder

Spells://
4x Brainstorm
2x Deep Analysis
1x Gush
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Timewalk
4x Oxidize
4x Force of Will
3x Null Rod

Mana://
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus
3x Flooded Strand
3x Windswepth Heath
1x Strip Mine
4x Wasteland
4x Tropical Island
2x Forest
2x Island

SB://
Undetermined yet


Here's the unorthodox choices I tested out today:

- Issue 1: Logics replaced by Oxodize

I just felt that Logics are sub-par. Without a Madness outlet, all it is is Force food. Might as well play with Mana Leak. That, to me, is the weakest point of the deck: its reliance on the Madness outlet.

Thus, I tested Oxidize. Why? Because it cost 1 mana, and it hardly slows me down, and it has plenty of utility in type 1. Also, it is not reliant on a Madness outlet.

Here's what I found with it. Against Stax, they were worth their weight in gold. Eot destroy anything, cheap enough to slip in under a couple of Spheres even. Oxodizes and Null Rods combined are really strong against Stax.

Against Tog, they were ass. Nothing to target, couldn't pitch to Force. Ended up Brainstorming them away most of the time.

I can't remember them making any difference against Keeper.

Against Belcher, they were decent. A well timed Oxidize easily throws a wrench in the plans. However, a couple of times I found myself lacking blue cards to pitch to Force.

So, I came up with a basic pros and cons of Oxidize and Logic:

Oxidize
Pros:
- Cheap all the time.
- Frees up 4 sideboard slots

Cons:
- Not useful in every matchup.
- Replacing Logics leaves less blue cards to pitch to Force

Logic
Pros:
- Pitchable to Force

Cons:
- Reliant on Madness outlet

I just wanted to know if anyone has done any testing with regards to Oxidize main, or if there's anything you found that had even a small sense of decency in place of the Logics.



- Issue 2: Manabase

I took out 2 Islands and a Strand to put in 3 Heaths. This helped with the green mana to support Oxidize. Also, it helped smooth out the mana base and make it more solid in the face of some massive Wasteland hate (opp. has a Waste on the board, and you're holding 2 Strands and you need a Green...not cool).

And of course, there's the deck thinning capabilities, as well as synergy with Brainstorm. They even have synergy with Logic (which I chose to cut, but say Oxidize doesn't work out... :p )


- Issue 3: Sideboard

I searched pretty hard for any form of reply to how viable Root Maze is in Madness SB, to no avail. I'm thinking that with the high reliance on fetchies, it might suck.

Also, supposing you had 4 free slots because you put your Oxidizes main, what do you think of this SB? (metagame as of this point is really unknown, but there's gonna be a Belcher for sure, and undoubtedly the usual sui/sligh/stompy/fcg. Tog is probably gonna show in some form as well)

SB://
4x B2B <-- Keeper, Tog
3x Root Maze <-- Belcher
1x Null Rod <-- Combo
1x Wonder <-- Aggro
3x Stupefying Touch <-- Creatures
3x Tormod's Crypt/Ground Seal <-- Anti-graveyard, can't decide yet.

The numbers I can play around with, but those cards are what I think would be ideal for a random metagame (might go to 4 anti-graveyard cards).


What does everyone think?


ps. is there a list of all the words that get auto-replaced by the forums? :p I just noticed one of them now while previewing my post.

[rvs]

I just felt that Logics are sub-par. Without a Madness outlet, all it is is Force food. Might as well play with Mana Leak. That, to me, is the weakest point of the deck: its reliance on the Madness outlet.

Oh no! Don't tell me your madness deck needs a madness outlet!

Magi, you have some screwed up logic. Dr. MoreFling suggests: More testing, less wanking!

[LoganRodgers]

Oxidize > Logic....are you kidding?

Lets break it down.  In a basic metagame, you have atleast three main decks you plan to see.  4cControl, Hulk, and of course a form of artifacts.  

What cards in 4cControl and hulk are an oxidize going to stop?  CoW?  Sure, maybe against slaver, oxidizing thier slaver might give you an extra turn, but wouldn't you rather just logic their thirst for knowledge that put the slaver in the yard?  Think it through, very few times, like 1/20, would I rather have a oxidize in hand than a logic.  Besides, your playing madness, you should have a nice sized yard and a nice dog to pitch your logic to.  I'll post my decklist and matchups later to help you out some more later, for now, I have to get back to work.

[jpmeyer]

The real threat is actually Goblin Welder, rather than the artifacts.  That's why Logic is better.

[LoganRodgers]

Another thing is this, if your playing aginst slavery, or whatever brown.dec,you'll want to cast null rod w/ oxidize back up or logic back up?

Counters > condionary spells.

It does need to be in the board.  I'd also suggest throwing in red for:
Red Elemental Blast, Artifact Mutation (instead of oxidize?), and or Flame Tongue Kavu if your meta is very aggro heavy.

[Magi]

Dr. MoreFling suggests: More testing, less wanking!

But that is the source of my powers! Fool...

What cards in 4cControl and hulk are an oxidize going to stop? CoW? Sure, maybe against slaver, oxidizing thier slaver might give you an extra turn, but wouldn't you rather just logic their thirst for knowledge that put the slaver in the yard? Think it through, very few times, like 1/20, would I rather have a oxidize in hand than a logic. Besides, your playing madness, you should have a nice sized yard and a nice dog to pitch your logic to. I'll post my decklist and matchups later to help you out some more later, for now, I have to get back to work.

Yes, like a pointed out, I realized Oxidize is crap against hulk and 4cControl. But, Logic doesn't usually come online until turn 3, which is imo too late to make a difference in some cases.

I'm just not a fan of Logic :p I don't know why, maybe it's some horrible childhood experience buried in my subconscious...

I didn't say Oxidize is THE answer, I just said it's a potential answer.

I think I'll try Daze next. The tempo loss could be too much though. I'll try it anyways.

The real threat is actually Goblin Welder, rather than the artifacts. That's why Logic is better.

Logic does crap against a first turn Welder, other than be pitched to Force.
Maybe Madness needs burn...

Artifact Mutation (instead of oxidize?)

Oxidize gets around Chalice for 2, and that's crucial because anyone with a clue knows what to set Chalice for against Madness.




Anyways, thanks for the replies guys. I'll try Daze, and maybe a red splash tomorrow.

[The Atog Lord]

When I'm playing Control Slaver, I'm really not too concerned about Oxidize. Null Rod? Yeah, that I fear a lot. Logic? That can disrupt me while you're attacking me with green monsters. But Oxidize? That card is very situational.

[Swanky]

If you're planning on delving into a G/U/R deck, one of the sleeker builds currently existing would be Hyperion's Madness deck.  That could be worth looking into.

[Mixing Mike]

Null Rod? Yeah, that I fear a lot.

But that still doesn't take away the fact that the dudes are huge.  I've never really had many problems with Null Rod at all, not to mention it doesn't make your graveyard irrelivant.  I just go aggro on them with FTK and fat games 2 and 3.

[twn_domn]

oxidize is a completely meta-game choice.  Unless your locals are all about workshop decks (ironcially, there's such a group), plz don't maindeck it.

[HuntedWumpus]

Oxidize plus null rod is an awful lot of main deck artifact hate. Also the addition of Logic would ease the main of force's on the blue cards you need in the build. Also pay attention the the fact that oxidize's best match, against things with welders, countering a welder via logic would still be better.

The additional permissions will also benefit you in match's against belcher, something you seem to be interested in, as well as many other.

[slighguy]

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[Razvan]

Alright, I tried something funny, and for some reason, it sort-of worked. I got a bit bored with Roar of the Wurm and decided to insert Masticore in Madness.

My deck had 3 Roar slots (I know, old school style ), and I stuck 3 Masticores in it. I figure they are both 4cc, and both provide some solid beats*, but, one is cast-able AND a discard engine, whereas the other one works a lot worse if it is not in the graveyard.

*Incidentally, the 4 vs. 6 power isn't as huge a difference as you think. 6 power takes 4 turns to kill, 4 power takes 5 turns. The 1 turn clock isn't as huge a deal if you consider the other strength Masticore has.

Anyhow, I wasn't yet able to take it to a tournament, or a extensive playtesting group, more of a few random games against a few decks here and there, but I think it might have potential.

Now... Magi's list has no Roars, so my point is null and void, AND he has 3 Null Rod maindeck... but it was just something to consider. Heck, I'd at least sideboard them (especially since the SB is "Undetermined yet"), and replace the maindeck Null Rod and Oxidize in match-ups where those are dead.

Yes, I know, Masticore is a bad creature, but maybe instead of the Stupefying Touches in the sideboard? I don't know, it was just something I thought up.

[jpmeyer]

We tried FTK for a similar reason but the 4 mana is actually really tough for this deck.  The best swap for Touch in the sideboard is probably Gilded Drake.

[Razvan]

That's very true, I never thought of that. I guess that's the same reason Roars got the boot as well?

Gilded Drake is very interesting, admittedly. Actually, that can nail all sorts of crazy creatures... Angel, Dreadnought. Yeah, it's probably superior.

[kirdape3]

If you're worried about Madness, try this variant.

4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Aquameoba
4x Arrogant Wurm
3x Wonder

4x Force of Will
4x Circular Logic
4x Brainstorm
3x Null Rod
2x Deep Analysis
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Ruby
1x Strip Mine
4x Wasteland
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
1x Island
1x Forest

Sideboard:

4x Red Elemental Blast
4x Fire/Ice
4x Artifact Mutation
3x Chill

This is a variant that's designed to handle a Psychatog/Workshop/Food Chain/Fish metagame.  You defeat the first by a combination of Wonder and REB out of the board (REB should only be used as spot removal for the Tog), the second by Null Rod, Artifact Mutation and Fire/Ice, the third by Fire/Ice, Wonder, Chill, and a good deal of hope, and the last by just having larger creatures that won't die to random 1/1s.

[BreathWeapon]

I think I went straight to Gilded Drake over Stupifying Touch when Germbus and 7/10 became popular, isn't it just a better all around choice for the metagame?

Anyway, I just had a few questions on my mind.

How do you bring in your Back to Basics for the Control match ups? Short of Wonder vs 4cc, I have a hard time finding the space to board them in.

Is Aquameoba the undisputed 2nd Madness Outlet? Can Merfolk Looter or even Waterfront Bouncer take its place, if the metagame permits?

Are Ground Seals and Stifles the only viable "answers" to Dragon? I've had decent luck with both of these cards in my SB, and they seem reasonably useful vs Workshop.dec. Are they worth the SB space, or are you just playing the wrong deck?

If 7/10 eclipses Slavery as "The" Workshop.dec, and I think it will IMO, will Madness' place in the metagame become unvalidated?

[raziel]

Greetings- I've been running U/G for quite a while now. In fact it's what I used to play in T2 back when I used to play that format. In regards to Gilded Drakes, they work best when they're combined with Waterfront Bouncers. However Bouncers can work in U/G solo. Here at C&J Waterfront Bouncers have replaced the Null Rods maindeck. The Rods have been moved to the sideboard. I suggest looking at extended decklists of U/G if you face creature heavy metagames. Their maindecks and sideboards reflect this. You will find they run Waterfront Bouncer and Gilded Drakes.
Aquamoeba tends to be the second madness outlet. Bouncers are mostly there for creature control. In the mirror who ever resolves the first Bouncer wins. A resolved Bouncer vs any other aggro is pretty good.
Ground Seal has been the best card vs. Dragon for me. It works against Welders too.

[Unearthly]

Is Aquameoba the undisputed 2nd Madness Outlet? Can Merfolk Looter or even Waterfront Bouncer take its place, if the metagame permits?

Pretty much.  He is:

1) A decent 3 power threat which goes with the decks aggressive nature
2) A constant madness outlet.  You can give the team flying with Wonder and power out a Basking Rootwalla the same turn you play him.
3) 3 toughness unless your opponent plays the stack just right (IE Fire in response to the changing p/t activation)

Merfolk looter and Waterfront Bouncer have none of these advantages and I think that Aquameoba would definately get the nod over the other two slow, fragile outlets.

[LoganRodgers]

neither masticore nor RotW should be played.  there just begging to be mana-drained.

[Ender]

Ok, I have a bunch of comments.

Firstly, is there any reason why you didn't include bazaar of baghdad in your original decklist? I thought they were a must include in a madness deck as a great reuseable draw engine and madness outlet. Secondly, why no Lion's Eye Diamond? A first turn LED may very well give you a first turn arrogant wurm not to mention a very short clock for the opponent. Lastly, I recently played a RUG madness deck that splashed red for anger, possibly fiery temper (which is debatable). This creates a possibly for upgraded sideboard with choices including reb, artifact mutation and possibly r&r and fire/ice, is so inclined.

[Unearthly]

"...why you didn't include bazaar of baghdad in your original decklist?

This is different than most madness builds.  It is more controlling and uses its mana for things like card drawing and countering spells.  It cannot usually take the mana hit that happens when you drop a bazaar and not a mana producing land.  It also has much less to ditch to the graveyard, (Only 2 flashback cards and 8 madness).  Wild Mongrel and Aquameoba are much better at creating both a quick clock and a madness outlet for counterspells and madness if you have enough mana.  Simply, bazaar is too much of a tempo hit for this deck and it also doesn't have enough synergy to support it.

Secondly, why no Lion's Eye Diamond?

The deck plays counterspells, which have extremely little synergy with 'discard your hand'.  A first turn arrogant wurm is about all LED could accomplish.  What happens if they deal with your 5 turn clock?  You are out of resources and are probably going to lose.  It just doesn't belong.

Lastly, I recently played a RUG madness deck that splashed red...

Red would destabilize the mana base, making it extremely vunerable to hate.  It would also mean  taking Back to Basics out of the sideboard.  And to be honest, I would rather have Back to Basics against control than Red Elemental Blast.  Especially against 4c Control, which has much less blue than the standard control deck.

[Negator]

I try to run the folowing SB:

2 Wonder
1 Null Rod
4 Gilded Drake
4 Oxidize
4 Chill

#1) The Slavery and Tog matchups are stengthened (post board 4 Null Rod, 4 Oxidize and 4 Gilded Drake, post board 4 Wonder and 4 Gilded Drake).
#2) B2B is a too nice target for Mana Drain in the 4cC matchup, Gilded Drake make the difference when it isn't countered.

Gilded Drake is a very great addition, it can exchange Exalted Angel, Sundering Titan, Juggernaut, Triskelion, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Goblin Welder, Psychatog, etc.

[Bobduh]

I really think a high discardable card count is vital to the build- you win with discard, either from power gained via the discarder or power gained via the discardee.

My metagame doesn't necesitate Null Rod, so I run a build sans the rod and beefed up both in the aggro and control departments- I up the Deep Analysis count to four and capitalize on my second dual land by adding in a couple Angers. My land base is something like this:

4x Tropical Island
2x Taiga
2x Volcanic Island
1x Forest
1x Island
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Strip Mine
4x Wasteland

I can support the Angers, and improve my vital green manabase with no negative consequences.