Proxies

[StrykerX]

How many people here play with proxies and/or play against friends who use them? Do you people here at TMD think that proxies are a good idea? I think they are because it allows for people to experiment with cards that they dont have but are willing to buy if the card is good. This also allows for people to play competative magic against people who have cards like the P9 and other 150$+ cards.

Please post your oppinion on this matter as I am interested in your thoughts and oppinions on proxies

[Kerz]

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15101

That was a discussion about proxies in the closed Type 1 forum. It might help you.

I'm pretty sure that as a community, TMD has already established proxies are absolutely necessary to grow and create a 'real' type one enviornment. Without proxies, the metagame gets distorted based on the fact that people simply don't have the cards. Having an advantage because you were able to afford power cards and your opponent wasn't is completely unfair, and is one of the reasons Wizards isn't into this format. I'm very unhappy that GenCon is sanctioned, while it gives me advantage for owning the power cards, it distorts the metagame to something not up to the caliber it should be. In conclusion, proxies are the answer for many of type one's problems, and will come to be manditory in tournaments (many, many have already adopted them) soon. In the areas without proxies, the participation will dwindle (maybe slowly, but dwindle nonetheless) untill the type one scene is gone there. It's inevitable.

[VGB]

One day everyone will be playing with proxies, anyways - only a fool drops $1000 dollars for a piece of cardboard to stick it in a sleeve and start bending and scraping it.

[Jacob Orlove]

One day everyone will be playing with proxies, anyways - only a fool drops $1000 dollars for a piece of cardboard to stick it in a sleeve and start bending and scraping it.

What's wrong with trading green paper for cardboard? Seems fair to me.

Anyway, this belongs in community. Moved.

[VGB]

What's wrong with trading green paper for cardboard? Seems fair to me.

Absolutely nothing.  People don't go out and buy Rolls Royces to drag race them, though.

[johnstown713]

Paper for cardboard is definetly even.  IU mean how much more fair can you get besides paper to paper or cardboard to cardboard.  Proxies are what keeps Type 1 healthy and moving.  It is rapidly growing and I think a great deal of that is due to proxies.  It hurts to say that since I would love more sanctioned Vintage but it is the truth.  We all need these fake cards to keep new people coming.  It is almost not up for discussion.  I can't even think of a tournament with a good metagame where the tournament is sanctioned.  Gencon does come close.

Johnstown713

[rvs]

What's wrong with trading green paper for cardboard? Seems fair to me.

Absolutely nothing.  People don't go out and buy Rolls Royces to drag race them, though.

You might be surprised what people do with expensive cards, actually.

[Jacob Orlove]

What's wrong with trading green paper for cardboard? Seems fair to me.

Absolutely nothing.  People don't go out and buy Rolls Royces to drag race them, though.

You might be surprised what people do with expensive cards, actually.

If you meant cars, that's quite an amusing typo.

[Kerz]

One day everyone will be playing with proxies, anyways - only a fool drops $1000 dollars for a piece of cardboard to stick it in a sleeve and start bending and scraping it.

More often than not, people buy power cards to play with them. Its worth biting the bullet and taking the sleight damage in order to have the enjoyment of playing with the card. Also, in most areas, you are only allowed so many proxies, so you'll have to play with SOME of your power.
Personnally, I've spent thousands on my cards, but have a good time playing with all of them, regardless of the damage i'm causing. Also, the damage is really minimal unless you riffle shuffle or bend the cards as you're playing them

[Smmenen]

Kerz, you should have linked them to this:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7149

Read that - that's the lowdown on proxies entitled "How to Run a T1 Tournament"

[dromar]

The consensus seems to be proxy = good, and I agree. Some cards are way too expensive for the average joe who's never gonna win a tournament to buy. As for this "paper to card" thing, there are two things to keep in mind:

1. Money can turn into anything, and cards can't
2. Cards, however, can turn into money when you sell them, assuming Magic: the Gathering doesn't suddenly crash

Because of rule two, it's usually not too dangerous to buy power when you know you can sell it for as much (or more) as/than you paid for it.

When I play with my friends, no proxies are allowed because they interfere with the coolness of playing with real cards. Tournaments, on the other hand, should definitely allow proxies, but in limited quantity. I think "unlimited proxy" tournaments are the dumbest thing just waiting for some loser to come in with a 60 proxy deck (maybe even basic lands proxied with other basic lands). Funny, but annoying. I'd kick that kid out. Three to five proxies should be it I think.

Finally, since this thread seems to be about getting the opinions of the people, I have a couple questions to throw out:

1. Should there be a rule with proxies, such as "No proxies of cards worth less than $25"?
2. What card has the greatest playability value for it's cost? (to rephrase "What card is really cheap for how good it is?")

[johnstown713]

Dromar Wrote:

1. Should there be a rule with proxies, such as "No proxies of cards worth less than $25"?

That is actually funny since I know a lot of people that dish out the cash for power but then don't have a common card they need to complete their deck.  The more I think about it the more I remember seeing people proxy stupid things that shouldn't be.  It would be really hard to make that rule and a lot of players would find it annoying.

Johnstown713

[jpmeyer]

Dromar Wrote:

1. Should there be a rule with proxies, such as "No proxies of cards worth less than $25"?

That is actually funny since I know a lot of people that dish out the cash for power but then don't have a common card they need to complete their deck.  The more I think about it the more I remember seeing people proxy stupid things that shouldn't be.  It would be really hard to make that rule and a lot of players would find it annoying.

Johnstown713

Actually, lots of times it can be really hard to find particularly random cards.  Everyone thinks that you should be able to proxy up a Mishra's Workshop or Black Lotus, and everyone knows that if you should usually be able to get an Exalted Angel at the store before the tourney (even if you're paying more than you'd like to,) but it's awfully hard to find stuff like say, Chains of Mephistopheles.

[johnstown713]

Good thing I have Chains   I does seem hard to find that random stuff.  I remember one time at Waterbury everybody was running around looking for Root Maze.  It is always the random stuff.  It is really ironic that people have a deck over a thousand dollars and then can't find a card worth $1.  Proxies are definetley a good thing.

Johnstown713

[Moxlotus]

Proxies are a great thing.  I had to use them to proxy Flying Men because who has them?  And if you did would you bring them to a tournament?  No.  Proxies help for crappy cards that nobody has and helps you complete a deck.  They are especially useful when the tournament is at a store which doesn't have a huge singles collection.

[Cross]

back to the paper for cardboard argument, keep in mind that you'll be trading tens, if not hundreds of pieces of paper for cardboard, although cardboard is made of many sheets of paper. I think the real answer to this question lies in how many pieces of paper equal one sqaure of cardboard.

Anyways, for real value to add to this discussion I'd like to say that www.mtgfanatic.com is awesome for finding random commons that you know you're going to need like a week before a tournament. Don't bother looking at the decks posted there, they're awful, but the site has a great search engine to find what you're looking for, and their prices are reasonable.

[xrizzo]

I have expounded my proxy theory to many a players individually, but not formally on these boards.  I guess it is time to share since it has been so well received.

The theory applies to tournaments only:
Proxies are allowed, but for each extra proxy you need, you must pay an additional $1 entry fee.  You can proxy 60 cards, but it will cost you $60.  You can do regular 5 proxy, but it costs $5 bucks.

This gives the players who have invested in real cards (and thus the game of magic) the right to pay a *reduced* entry fee.  Reduced here is arbitrary based on the way you look at the entry fee.  It is either a $15 tourney with up to 5 proxy, or a $10 tourney which you can proxy all you like for $1 per card.  

This method also has the side benefit of making all other cards more valuable.  Are you really going to pay $1 to proxy a mystical tutor (like you can't get it anyway) when you could just buy it for $2?

[Law]

To bad they dont allow proxies in my area. So the people with power have that much of a better deck then the other people that dont. Even then they might use them in decks that dont use there brokeness to there full.

[Ephraim]

Here's a question. It's already been established that the Type 1 community in the United States generally supports the use of proxies, how should a play group go about encouraging a tournament organizer to change from a no-proxy policy to an n-proxy policy? What can be done if opposition is met from the local powered population? It's great to say that powerless players should win their power in proxy tournaments, but if the local "gentry" is winning power every tournament and likes it just fine that way, what are good ways to bring about change?

[Methuselahn]

I dont get this inbreeding of magic, the COLLECTABLE card game.  Proxies are so communist.

First, type 1 is plenty healthy.  I'll use my own area for example.  Proxy tournaments, on average, are rare and saved for 1 friday night out of a month here.  We have type 1 tournies every friday night that pulls in 20 people or so every time.  This is just at one store.  The other 3 or so stores in the area that have type one tournies are sanctioned and they pull in the numbers too.  There are plenty of people keeping T1 alive here, despite this ridiculous assumption that proxies are needed to keep the format alive.  Oh, the multiple power during the weekend every month here are normally sanctioned, and we have a very interesting, REAL, and well represented meta.  Also look at Europe, which represents a huge chunk of Dr. Sylvan's stats, it's sanctioned there.

Second, sanctioned tournaments are the votes that influence Wizard's attention to the format.  They've said it over and over.

Third, go ahead and try to use your gay proxies at Gencon.

Fourth, and probably most important to me is the reasoning to use proxies.  What is it's purpose?  To refine the format and produce top decks?  To create and promote a handful of topdecks that have been refined and 'proven' to be the best, only to face each other?  Not only is this incredibly BORING, but it eliminates the surprise factor, a factor that affects your opponents' game play, decision making, and ultimately, leads to your winning.  (see the definition of 'tech' for further argument)  This refined meta that proxies can help everyone achieve is bullshit anyway since the format is inherently flawed.  If you want this type of controlled setting, then go play Standard.  That's right, I said it.  To quote, but not verbatim, "This is a format of atrocities and we love it." -k-run  I don't understand why and how people can think that we can examine the general meta, create decks that mesh neatly in one nice rock, paper, scissors, effect when such random things like the die roll and broken cards make all of this laughable.  Type 1 is all about the opening hand, the format is far too random to corral it.

I wish I could bring my own poker chips to the casino and pass them off as real ones.

xrizzo: your theory has already been used in our area for some of the power tournaments, generally a limit of 3.

[xrizzo]

xrizzo: your theory has already been used in our area for some of the power tournaments, generally a limit of 3.

Thanks.  I am glad it works.  

Now, why would you limit the proxy count at 3?  If most people need to proxy 5+ cards, and you come fully powered, then effectively you can win much better prizes relative to your entry fee...

[Methuselahn]

Now, why would you limit the proxy count at 3?  If most people need to proxy 5+ cards, and you come fully powered, then effectively you can win much better prizes relative to your entry fee...

'Cause proxies are lame.  It seems to attract more people by at least throwing them a bone.  It has only happened at the Lotus/Recall tournies so far.

[defector]

Xrizzo, you idea is hot, why we limit to 3 in Minneapolis is simply another thing in Minnesota that I'd call wierd, like commuter tollways and light rail we feel here that you can only have so much of a good thing and not enough of everything else.  The 3 doesn't kill me, I own enough power and workshops to Proxy Lotus, Saphire, Ruby and run w-slavery, but it keeps many of my friends from playing in tournaments.  i would like to see it expanded and paying three bucks to turn my deck from suboptimal to solid is not excessive.  Proxies are good for type 1.  Period.
defector

[rozetta]

@Methuselahn: You echoed my thoughts exactly with your post. Thank you!

This is a collectible card game. I'd venture to say that when each and every one of us got into this game, the first thing we did was try and get new cards to make our decks better. And we enjoyed the feeling of playing with those cards we had spent time acquiring.

For me, it feels cheap and stupid to play with a card which isn't real and as much so if your opponent does the same thing. I can't even imagine what that would feel like in a tournament situation, but I imagine it would feel rather humiliating to play against someone who didn't even take the time and trouble to bother to get their own cards.

I can fully understand the use of proxies while playtesting, especially if they are cards which haven't yet been released (like between a spoiler list for a new set coming out and the set becoming tournament legal). If I've ever proxied cards up, it's been cards I would mean to get if they turned out to be useful in the deck I was building.

The other obvious use for proxies is when playtesting against a gauntlet of decks.

The very idea of 5-proxy tournaments encourages the sort of trends we see in the metagames where they happen. People tend to play more decks like tog and fish because they are the sort of decks that are buildable with a limited number of proxies. It could be a reason why decks like Draw7, Belcher and Workshop decks don't see the representation they might otherwise. If people don't have to acquire power, they won't. They will stick with the decks that are playable under the limited proxy rule. Note that people winning power often means they'll just straight away cash it in for money if they don't need it.

Of course, the reverse side of this arguement would be that if there weren't proxy tournaments, we'd end up seeing a higher representation of those easier to build decks as people started acquring real cards. But eventually those players would have acquired the real cards needed to build almost any deck. This process would take time, but it would eventually balance itself out again.

Acquiring the real cards takes time and effort. During this period, a player will improve their play and deckbuilding skills. I remember back a few years ago when the boards were less populated than they are now, there were plenty of very high quality discussions around many different deck types, mostly because the members were those people who had already spent their time becoming proficient players and deck builders while acquiring the cards needed to build those decks properly. Not that this can be attributed totally to the new proxy mentality, but it seems to me that the decrease in quality discussions and ideas on these boards might have something to do with the fact that anyone and their dog can throw together a deck without much thought because they suddenly have all these free cards. This is also a propagation of the netdeck mentality that plagues the other formats.

In conclusion, I think Methuselahn's quote pretty much says it all for me:

I wish I could bring my own poker chips to the casino and pass them off as real ones.

[dandan]

The problem is simply that proxies are not good (directly) for a company that prints Magic cards. They do not want to put the idea into anyone's head that they don't need to own a particular card. Proxies are also not very good (directly) for the retailers who sell single cards. I think it is very clear that proxies are good for players. In the end, the company that wants you to have to buy cards is the one that makes the decision about whether or not you have to own the cards in order to play in the tournaments it sanctions.

The battleground for proxies is not whether it is good for players but whether the indirect effects of allowing proxies are sufficiently good to overcome the perceived bad direct effects of allowing them. Personally I think that it would have no net effect on Wizards but would positively affect retailers and players.

[PucktheCat]

I'd venture to say that when each and every one of us got into this game, the first thing we did was try and get new cards to make our decks better. And we enjoyed the feeling of playing with those cards we had spent time acquiring.

I, for one, am an exception to this rule.  I played tournaments all through high school without a collection of my own.  I would build and test decks entirely in proxy and then barrow the cards for the tournament.

When I recently got back into magic I bought one deck and got enough commons from one of my friends to serve as proxy backs.

The collectible aspect of this game does nothing for me.

Leo

[cssamerican]

I have the same feelings as PucktheCat.

The collecting aspect of this game to me is stupid and is the one thing about Magic that I absolutely hate.

Imagine going to a Ch3ss tournament and playing someone who has 4 queens because he could afford it. That is just insane, but that is how Magic is.

I wish they would just reprint all the common Type 1 cards with new art and the new layout as a special set to supplement competitive Type 1 play. At least this way the old cards will still be unique and maintain their value (Don't argue this, the massive increase in proxies hasn't decreased the value of cards because their value is related to their rareness, not their playability), while allowing Type 1 to continue to function and grow as sanctioned events. But since this will probably never happen I am for proxies, and to me the best policy would be you can proxy anything that has rotated out of extended. This way WotC shouldn't feel any finical impact from loss of sales, as it always requires you to purchase new cards.

[dromar]

I wish they would just reprint all the common Type 1 cards with new art and the new layout as a special set to supplement competitive Type 1 play. At least this way the old cards will still be unique and maintain their value (Don't argue this, the massive increase in proxies hasn't decreased the value of cards because their value is related to their rareness, not their playability),

I'm afraid I need to argue this, cuz' I think it's just plain wrong. At first I couldn't explain why I thought it was wrong, but then I reread what you wrote and found this:

their value is related to their rareness, not their playability

I agree, and that's why I think their values would go down if they were reprinted. If they are reprinted, they become MUCH less rare. Right now, cards like Ancestral Recall are valuable because:
     1. They're really good
     2. You need them to play your deck at its best in a no-proxy tourney
     3. Collector value, and most importantly,
     4. There are a limited number of the card in existence

We can all bet that WotC will NEVER reprint the p9, or any other card on the reserved list for that matter (with the exception of Clone and that card in 8th). However, if WotC DID reprint the p9, and they didn't count as proxies, the value of the originals would DEFINITELY go down. The old ones would still be more valuable than the new ones, but mostly because of collector value. That's my two cents.

[johnstown713]

Lets also note that cards such as the Power 9 are not as valuable as they should be.  This is due to the fact that people can use proxies and don't have to acquire them.  They are still valuable due to the reasons already noted but as it is they should be worth more.  With the continuation of proxies the power cards will increase in value but not as much.  As popularity of our awesome format continues so does the value of the cards but use of proxies keeps it to somewhat realistic prices.  This has a both positive and negative effect on our environment.

Johnstown713

[Jacob Orlove]

Actually, proxies increase the number of T1 players, driving UP the demand for power. Look at how flat power prices were until proxy tournaments started catching on.