Proxies

[Moxlotus]

Actually, proxies increase the number of T1 players, driving UP the demand for power. Look at how flat power prices were until proxy tournaments started catching on.

Definitely.  Why do you think T1 has grown in the past few years?  Tons of people putting money into tournaments wouldn't be doing it if they couldn't proxy a few cards.  In my area the general rule is 10 proxy, but people are still attempting to buy power even if they are under the limit.

[johnstown713]

Yes, but now that poeple are playing it more and more they are discovering that they can keep their cash and start making crap cards into fake gold.  Take any large tournament and examine what percent of the field takes full advantge and uses almost all of the proxies available.  There is a great demand for the power cards but it seems like it should be a lot higher.  I mean it kind of sucks to have a person go into a tournament with fake cards and win a Lotus with you knowing that you got it the rightful way.  I am not say proxies are good or bad but just bringing up the issue of money.  

This is a game and to play a game you have to buy stuff not make a bunch of bootleg stuff.

Johnstown713

[rozetta]

Imagine going to a Ch3ss tournament and playing someone who has 4 queens because he could afford it. That is just insane, but that is how Magic is.

I don't think Ch3ss analogies work at all when it comes to explaining the collectibility aspects of magic. Even a sports analogy works better.

If you have a sporting hobby, you'll start off playing that sport with a small investment in equipment - clothes, shoes, perhaps renting or borrowing the cue/racquet/clubs/bike/whatever. As you get more interested and better at that sport, you'll likely invest more money into better equipment. And you'd invest money into going to better training facilities, travelling further to participate, and so on. If you want to be competitive at a higher level, you'll naturally want the most appropriate and often the best equipment, since it will give you that slight edge in what you're doing. Same goes for better training areas, better competition and so on. The more expensive equipment might not make much difference to a beginner or a casual hobbyist, so they'd not likely invest in it, in the same way that they'd likely not travel as far or be interested in competing on a level outside of their own group of friends. However, the true competitor will recognise that they require that extra something.

This goes also for computer gaming. If you're good at a competitive RTS or FPS game, you're probably going to be spending money on top of the line hardware to get the most reactive gaming experience. You'll play online more and maybe even travel to enter competitions at LAN gatherings.

In the same way, if you want to be competitive in Type 2 magic, you have to go and acquire those multiple sets of $10-$15 current rares. Those are the pieces of equipment necessary to compete properly at the highest levels.

In the end it's all about how dedicated you are about being competitive.

I totally agree that the proxy tournaments are increasing the popularity of Type 1 which is, in turn, driving up the prices on the older cards. The reason why the older cards are still rising in value is probably due to multiple reasons - the popularity of players wanting to own the real cards, the fact that some higher profile tournaments like GenCon require them, the fact that there are still plenty of sanctioned tournaments, and the fact that they are still a good investment.

In almost no other hobby can you buy equipment that will actually increase in value over time (and this includes the other magic formats). If anything, at least one is not throwing their money away. In fact, in a lot of cases, someone could pick up Type 1 today and in a year's time, make a lot of money back from selling the cards if they quit.

I know that was slightly off-topic. Sorry.

[theorigamist]

I mean it kind of sucks to have a person go into a tournament with fake cards and win a Lotus with you knowing that you got it the rightful way

What is the "rightful" way?  Is it the way that says the person who actually bought their cards deserves to win more?  Wouldn't that mean that people should be able to buy their game wins instead of earning them through playskill, metagaming, and good deck construction?  I think proxies are a lot closer to the "rightful" way.  Then the tournament outcomes are based on skill instead of money.

[cssamerican]

We can all bet that WotC will NEVER reprint the p9, or any other card on the reserved list for that matter (with the exception of Clone and that card in 8th).

I agree that is why advocate the use of proxies.

However, if WotC DID reprint the p9, and they didn't count as proxies, the value of the originals would DEFINITELY go down. The old ones would still be more valuable than the new ones, but mostly because of collector value. That's my two cents.

I see no difference between collecting Magic cards and collecting coins. In both hobbies you are collecting the item for its rareness. The best example I could think of to illustrate this is American Silver Eagle coins. Almost all of the American Silver Eagle coins from 1986 to present in PR69 grade (PR70 is absolutely perfect and very rare) run around $100.00. Some are a little more, some are a little less, all except the 1995-W American Silver Eagle which sells for around $3000.00. The only difference in appearance between it and the other coins is its says 1995-W. However, because of its rareness it is worth a hell of a lot more than the other ones. And no matter how many more American Silver Eagle coins they print the price of the 1995-W American Silver Eagle has only been going up.
This same philosophy holds true with Magic cards. That is why Beta versions of cards are much more expensive than unlimited. So even if they are reprinted, the old cards will still retain their value. Why? Because they are very rare, and people who have the money and are collectors will always want them due to that fact.
Just say for instance if they released a reprint set, and every competitive Type 1 player sold their power (Note this wouldn't happen) that they play with and bought the reprints. What would be the result of that? A flooding of the market with about 200 copies of power. I would say that would barely even effect the price of those cards.

I don't think Ch3ss analogies work at all when it comes to explaining the collectibility aspects of magic. Even a sports analogy works better.

Your right!
However, I don't equate the P9 in Magic to a better shoe, since its impact is very negligible; however, I would be inclined to equate it to steroids. The reason is steroids won't make the average person better than a world class athlete, but it becomes a definite deciding factor between two world class athletes. Just look at Carl Lewis and Ben Johnson. And while in most sports they test for steroids to make sure everyone is on a level playing field (Just like proxies ensure everyone is on a level playing field) some sports they don't, just look at Baseball (Sanctioned Magic) and Barry Bonds.

[Ric_Flair]

This topic ALWAYS results in idiotic posts about economics and political theory and garbage.  Face facts: without proxies the format would be dead and your "valuable" cards would be worth much, much less.  This is not about who deserves what, but about the format.  Thus given the HUGE resurgence since the widespread adoption of proxies, there is no argument--proxies are good for the format.  And what is good for the format is good for me.  If more proxies would make the format even bigger (hence better), then I am all for it.  I don't care how much my cards are worth and if you are truly a gamer then you shouldn't either.  This thread is just retarded.  Do we have to go through this crap EVERY MONTH?  It is worse than the restriction debates.

[xrizzo]

Just say for instance if they released a reprint set, and every competitive Type 1 player sold their power (Note this wouldn't happen) that they play with and bought the reprints. What would be the result of that? A flooding of the market with about 200 copies of power. I would say that would barely even effect the price of those cards.

If all the competitive T1 players sold their power at the same time, who is going to buy up the original power?  A bunch of people who didn't own it before, right?   They weren't willing to pay the going rate for power before the reprint, (hence the reason they don't own it) so why would they pay those prices now when their alternative is to buy the reprint set?

Answer: they won't!  If all the competitive T1 people are selling their power and buying reprints as well, there is NO market for the older cards, and their value would drop quickly.

----

Now lets say for a moment that you didn't force ALL competitive T1 players to sell all their power.  You would still experience a decrease in the value of the older cards because the low end buyers will have a better alternative.  I know so many people that shelled out the cash for power only because they had no better alternative.  Heck, if I could sell my power for today's prices (get out) and re-purchase the same tournament legal cards for $100 bucks, I would be very tempted to invest my $5k elsewhere.  (I own more than just 9 pieces)


One more note: If all the competitive T1 players sold their power, there would be way many more than 200 copies of power.  In the thousands possibly.  (only takes 100 powered players to get here)  Never-the-less, 200 pieces of power on ebay would lower the price a bit unless the ratio of buyers to sellers also increases dramatically over the same period.

[johnstown713]

Ric_Flair Wrote

This topic ALWAYS results in idiotic posts about economics and political theory and garbage. Face facts: without proxies the format would be dead and your "valuable" cards would be worth much, much less. This is not about who deserves what, but about the format. Thus given the HUGE resurgence since the widespread adoption of proxies, there is no argument--proxies are good for the format. And what is good for the format is good for me. If more proxies would make the format even bigger (hence better), then I am all for it. I don't care how much my cards are worth and if you are truly a gamer then you shouldn't either. This thread is just retarded. Do we have to go through this crap EVERY MONTH? It is worse than the restriction debates.

Thsi couldn't be more right.  I was a little misleading through my posts but I do agree that proxies are good and expanding the format.  I was just going from the view of selling of power.  people will always have their own opinions on the topic and as of now it doesn't matter since proxies keep showing positive results.  It does seem annoying that there is one of these threads every month and it ends the same.  Next time I will keep my opinions to myself so I don't seem as though I am trying to flame.

Johnstown713

[Jacob Orlove]

This topic ALWAYS results in idiotic posts about economics and political theory and garbage.  Face facts: without proxies the format would be dead and your "valuable" cards would be worth much, much less.  This is not about who deserves what, but about the format.  Thus given the HUGE resurgence since the widespread adoption of proxies, there is no argument--proxies are good for the format.  And what is good for the format is good for me.  If more proxies would make the format even bigger (hence better), then I am all for it.  I don't care how much my cards are worth and if you are truly a gamer then you shouldn't either.  This thread is just retarded.  Do we have to go through this crap EVERY MONTH?  It is worse than the restriction debates.

Exactly. Closed.

[Smmenen]

I dont get this inbreeding of magic, the COLLECTABLE card game.  Proxies are so communist.

First, type 1 is plenty healthy.  I'll use my own area for example.  Proxy tournaments, on average, are rare and saved for 1 friday night out of a month here.  We have type 1 tournies every friday night that pulls in 20 people or so every time.  This is just at one store.  The other 3 or so stores in the area that have type one tournies are sanctioned and they pull in the numbers too.  There are plenty of people keeping T1 alive here, despite this ridiculous assumption that proxies are needed to keep the format alive.  Oh, the multiple power during the weekend every month here are normally sanctioned, and we have a very interesting, REAL, and well represented meta.  Also look at Europe, which represents a huge chunk of Dr. Sylvan's stats, it's sanctioned there.

Second, sanctioned tournaments are the votes that influence Wizard's attention to the format.  They've said it over and over.

Third, go ahead and try to use your gay proxies at Gencon.

Fourth, and probably most important to me is the reasoning to use proxies.  What is it's purpose?  To refine the format and produce top decks?  To create and promote a handful of topdecks that have been refined and 'proven' to be the best, only to face each other?  Not only is this incredibly BORING, but it eliminates the surprise factor, a factor that affects your opponents' game play, decision making, and ultimately, leads to your winning.  (see the definition of 'tech' for further argument)  This refined meta that proxies can help everyone achieve is bullshit anyway since the format is inherently flawed.  If you want this type of controlled setting, then go play Standard.  That's right, I said it.  To quote, but not verbatim, "This is a format of atrocities and we love it." -k-run  I don't understand why and how people can think that we can examine the general meta, create decks that mesh neatly in one nice rock, paper, scissors, effect when such random things like the die roll and broken cards make all of this laughable.  Type 1 is all about the opening hand, the format is far too random to corral it.

I wish I could bring my own poker chips to the casino and pass them off as real ones.

xrizzo: your theory has already been used in our area for some of the power tournaments, generally a limit of 3.

I'm sorry but you are completely wrong.  Your grasp of T1 is much weaker than I had supposed.

The only reason this thread ballooned out of control is because Kerz didn't post my article link first.

As Ric Flair said: thank god steve wrote that article - becuase to take another position someone will have to say why he is wrong.