[Trading in Type One] what are the secrets?

[mylkhead]

Okay, I've been involved in Magic since 1996 or so and have played Type 1 the entire time.  I have always wanted to get power, but never had the money to do so.  My strategy was I would sell some cards on ebay and then with that money buy a piece of power.

So over the years, I have accummulated a binder FULL of mostly crap rares.  I am sure some of you can relate.  Now playing competative type 1, there are a LOT of cards that are useless and suboptimal.  Now the question I am asking, how does one go about OPTIMIZING his or her card collection?  I want to eventually get a full set of Power (now I have only 4 pieces, Mox Sapphire, Mox Pearl, Ancestral, and Time Walk.) and a full set of the other Tier 2 power cards (Bazaar, Drains, Workshops).  

In other words, how does one go from a FULL binder of crap rares to a small binder of the most optimal type one cards?  Note that not ALL of the cards are crap rares, but probably about 75% of them are.  

What are the secrets of trading cards in Magic?  What are the strategies people use?  How to you manipulate the deal so that you get a profit?  How can you slowly work your way up to aquiring the better cards?  Anyone have any ideas they would like to share?

[johnstown713]

Ebay is definetly the most easy thing to minipulate.  people buy any crap rares and pay good money for them.  I feel it is the easiest way to obtain mmoney from garbage cards.  If you don't like that then the best I can say is keep your eyes open for good deals.  There will always be people getting out of the game or not knowing about certain crads that give you a good deal.

Johnstown713

[Bulls on Parade]

Honestly, I can't stand trading. The only time I trade is with people I know well if we pick something up cool for one another, or at prereleases because I've found horrendously cheap cards there (see 12.50 Bazaars, $6 Berserk, $1 Chain Lightnings, etc). I don't have a problem with picking up a few extra cards if I know I can immediately sell them for more or if someone I know is looking for them, as I mentioned. My advice to you is to sell the binder of rares you've got, listing the nice rares and then finishing the auction with "and hundreds more".

[Kowal]

1)  Never tell anyone your secrets.

2)

[mylkhead]

would it be a better choice to sell the entire binder?  or to sell them all individually?

[Ric_Flair]

Always trade away premuim versions of cards for the cheapest legal version of that card.  Beta, foil, foreign, is a waste of time for gamers.  Let the suckers give you free stuff for them.

[johnstown713]

You could probably get more if you sold them individually but it would take a lot more time.  It is also better to sell cards in playsets(4 of).  It seems to make more money that way.

Johnstown713

[mylkhead]

I have 2x Beta Sinkholes, and 1x Beta Berserk, and 1x Alpha Signed Berserk.  Say I sold those on ebay and bought their UL counter parts this is how much I would save:

EXCHANGING SINKHOLES
2x Beta Sinkhole = $44
2x UL Sinkholes = $31.74
I would gain = $12.26

EXCHANGING BERSERKS
1x Alpha Berserk Signed = $60
1x Beta Berserk = $62.28
total: $122.28
2x UL Berserk = $87.08
I would gain: $35.20

EXCHANGING REGROWTHS
1x Beta Regrowth = $12.34
1x Revised Regrowth = $0.98
I would gain: $11.36

Just from these cards I would gain:  $58.82

What would be the most important thing to pick up?

Another question....I have about 18x Alpha Swamps, and 4x Alpha Dark Rituals, are they worth exchanging?  I like "pimping" out my deck, but is it even worth it?  I like to get Alpha/Beta version of the staple cards, but what is more important?

[Zherbus]

Coming from someone who always has pretty decks, I wouldn't sacrifice having all the cards I need or play a bad deck if pimping got in the way. I'd rather play a white bordered, non-foiled, revised-over-beta Fish or Tog deck than an uber-sweet looking Beta Sengir Vampire-Juzam Djinn-Sinkhole deck.

[theorigamist]

It seems like, especially with the rise in power prices, it would be simpler to try to win your other power.  You've got four pieces, which means five proxy is your friend.  Test a lot and try to win some other power.  Even if you win the same power over again, you can trade it one-for-one for whichever other mox you need.

I'm in a similar situation.  I've recently realized I can make it to some of the tournaments, but I don't have type 1 cards because I never could before.  So now I have to turn a crap collection (relative to type 1) into anything good enough to win me some power.  Given the number of power (proxy) tournaments this summer, I'm hoping I can win my way into power instead of buying it.

[Zombie Shakespeare]

I'll have to echo what Ric Flair said earlier. Never underestimate the allure of beta, foil, signed cards or some combination thereof. I was able to net 3 extra pieces of power by trading down from signed beta to unlimited.

Making insane trade offers, especially at conventions, can sometimes pay off as well. On a lark I offered a friend two entire binders of cards, my entire collection save for my deck at the time, for his Black Lotus. I had nothing tremendous in value in the binders but the shear amount of cards was what got me the deal.

Another thing I'll have to add is go to the Pre-releases. Some people are so hot to get the chase cards out of the new set that they'll make great trades. At the Mirrodin Pre-release in Atlanta someone traded a few Mana Drains for a set of Chrome Moxes and other rares from the set. At the Stronghold Pre-release I was able to trade a set of Ice Age, Alliances, and a few extras out of my binder for a beta Timetwister.

[JACO]

Coming from someone who always has pretty decks, I wouldn't sacrifice having all the cards I need or play a bad deck if pimping got in the way. I'd rather play a white bordered, non-foiled, revised-over-beta Fish or Tog deck than an uber-sweet looking Beta Sengir Vampire-Juzam Djinn-Sinkhole deck.

I concur about this point. I have debateably the most pimp collection here (quality, not quantity), and if I was a player just starting to get serious about the game I would forego the pimping factor to acquire all of the best and most playable cards in the format. The fact of the matter is, you need to own the cards to be competive, especially if you want to play different decks on a regular basis. Unless you have money to spare (which most of us don't), that means trading in the Foil and Alpha/Beta versions for more common varieties, and increasing your odds at getting 1x-4x of everything you really need to play the different competitive decks.

Also, breaking up collections/binders will net you more dollars over the long haul. Most people will sell entire groups of cards if the time investment is not worth it to them, but to maximize your profits you would want to piece it out. If you want to be competitive and not a collector, trading away those complete sets of IA, Urza's Block, and others will help net you more of the items you can actually play with every week. Usability > Eye Candy

EDIT to reply to original poster:

Now the question I am asking, how does one go about OPTIMIZING his or her card collection?...
In other words, how does one go from a FULL binder of crap rares to a small binder of the most optimal type one cards?  Note that not ALL of the cards are crap rares, but probably about 75% of them are...
What are the secrets of trading cards in Magic?  What are the strategies people use?  How to you manipulate the deal so that you get a profit?  How can you slowly work your way up to aquiring the better cards?  Anyone have any ideas they would like to share?

The way to best improve your collection while trading is to just flat out know what cards are really worth, in both your local market and on eBay. It requires time and investigation to do this, but if you find that a local mid-priced rare (such as Tangle Wire) sells for $2, but on eBay a playset of Tangle Wires sells for $18+shipping, then you have found a difference in street values between markets. This is just an example, so please don't make any wackass commentary on what Tangle Wires really go for. Knowing the true value of cards is the best way to come out ahead in trades, especially when engineering trades of multiple cards at a time (or for example, when you are trading down your Beta Mox Jet for someone elses' Unlimited Mox Jet plus and overwhelming abundance of smaller cards that really turns the deal in your favor). Also, most people realize that they will have to give up a little more than the normal difference in value between cards to trade up for that Beta Mox Jet from their Unlimited Jet, because of the rarity and the fact that you are 'doing them a favor.'

[mylkhead]

yeah these are all good points.  I am actually doing a trade to the Netherlands tomorrow (which I am a little cautious on doing, but I think it should be okay).  I am trading away lots of cards.  And I am getting lots in return.  Here is the trade:

I am giving up:
2x Power Artifact
1x Morphling
3x Tradewind Rider
4x Psionic Blast UL NM
4x Deranged Hermit
4x Horn of Greed
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Tolarian Academy
2x Maze of Ith
1x Dust Bowl
4x Tropical Island
3x Taiga

He is sending me:
4x Tundra
4x Underground Sea
4x Volcanic Island
4x Mana Crypt
1x Berserk UNL
4x Birds of Paradise 02 7TH 02 8TH
3x Mishra's Factory AQ Winter, Fall, Summer
2x Grim Lavamancer
4x Meddling Mage
4x Stifle
1x Chrome Mox
1x Mox Diamond

Now I feel that I am getting the good part of this deal.  But there is the risk of him not sending his cards.  But I think that chance is slim considering he has 65 refs on MOTL and they all seem legit.  

A lot of times I fall for the allure of out of print old chase cards.  Like Old Man in the Sea, Forcefield, Drop of Honey, etc.  Stuff like that that ISN'T playable in type one really.  I would be excited to trade for it and I would give up probably more than it's worth thinking I can actually trade UP my Old Man for something better.  But I don't really think it works that way.  I would guess players who have power aren't gonna trade it to me cause I have an Old Man and a Forcefield.   I remember owning a Beta Lotus back in 1999 and trading it for a LoA, 4x BoP, and about 15 or so duals of my choice.  BAD idea.  But then I was thinking, "gee what is more useful to me, a Beta Lotus in a BAD scrubby aggro deck I had at the time, or 15 duals and an LoA Plus 4 birds?  So it was, so I thought, a good decision.  Turns out the Lotus has more than tripled in value since then.

[mrieff]

I am giving up:
2x Power Artifact
1x Morphling
3x Tradewind Rider
4x Psionic Blast UL NM
4x Deranged Hermit
4x Horn of Greed
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Tolarian Academy
2x Maze of Ith
1x Dust Bowl
4x Tropical Island
3x Taiga

He is sending me:
4x Tundra
4x Underground Sea
4x Volcanic Island
4x Mana Crypt
1x Berserk UNL
4x Birds of Paradise 02 7TH 02 8TH
3x Mishra's Factory AQ Winter, Fall, Summer
2x Grim Lavamancer
4x Meddling Mage
4x Stifle
1x Chrome Mox
1x Mox Diamond

This deal is highly in your favor! So much that i would be on a ripper alert. Be careful here.

[Addolorisi]

Trops for Tundras?

But be careful with the online transactions.... Do you have similar refs?

[mylkhead]

it's interesting because I have 0 refs and I have to send first.  I know this deal is highly in my favor.  He lives in the Netherlands, so I gotta send my cards overseas.  How "careful" can I get without refusing to send my cards?

[Addolorisi]

it's interesting because I have 0 refs and I have to send first.  I know this deal is highly in my favor.  He lives in the Netherlands, so I gotta send my cards overseas.  How "careful" can I get without refusing to send my cards?

Not much more than you already are, unfortunately. My best advice would be to keep your trades as small as possible if you're unsure whether you can trust the other person.

Edit: Even if you do multiple trades with the same person, instead of a giant one. But then again, I'm a fairly paranoid person...and I recently started wondering if my local shop is selling counterfeit cards. :sweat:

[mylkhead]

Well I assume that he is honest.  But I don't really know. It's a scary thing.  But I just have to detach myself from the value of the cards and make believe they aren't mine anymore.  And just let them go.  I can file for mail fraud if anything happens.  

I am going to ship with insurance and delivery confirmation and tracking on the package so I can make sure it gets there.

[Matt]

You could also each ship just a few at a time, probably splitting the trade up into two or three seperate trades. When I sent some cards to Bram (also in the Netherlands) it was about 80 cents' worth of shipping. On a large trade like yours, the extra money you pay in shipping is probably worth the peace of mind.

[mylkhead]

yeah it could be a good idea.  like i would probably keep my duals and the psionic blasts in a seperate trade.  i will email the guy and ask him about it.

[Mixing Mike]

You can always trade 3ed party through a Moderator on the site.  That's what they're there for, to help the users.  I personally know Jazary on MOTL, and she's a great gal, willing to help anyone out.  That deal is a red light for a ripper caution.  I'd highly suggest 3ed party.

[VGB]

I'm a fairly paranoid person...and I recently started wondering if my local shop is selling counterfeit cards. :sweat:

Elucidate.  What aroused your suspicions?

As for the current discussion as to trading overseas:

Both parties should send via verified mail (tracking number, insurance, etc.).

Here is a little blurb I wrote about rippers and online Magic card trading a few months back:

The EssentialMagic Spot-A-Ripper Primer

[Ric_Flair]

Dual land priorty (as discerned over years of trading and watching experts):

Underground Sea
Volcanic Island/Tropical Island
Tundra
Tiaga
Bayou
Scrubland
Badlands
Savannah
Plateau

Anything after Bayou is pretty much equal, with people in the know realizing that Scrublands are REQUIRED for Rector Combo decks and generally better than the others.  The ranking is based on a) how widely the land is used, the more decks the better; b) perceived value, Tundra despite being as useful as Volcanics usually trade lower because of White's perceived weakness in the format.

JACO, as for the pimp comment, there is no argument--Samite Healer has the pimpest collection.  One way to prove it: do you have a REAL Mox Crystal and Splendid Genesis?

[Malhavoc]

REAL Mox Crystal and Splendid Genesis?

I knew about splendid genesis (:shock:)  but what is mox crystal?

[Razvan]

Dual land priorty (as discerned over years of trading and watching experts):

Underground Sea
Volcanic Island/Tropical Island
Tundra
Tiaga
Bayou
Scrubland
Badlands
Savannah
Plateau

For some reason, I would place Volcanic Island first. I can't seem to be able to make a single deck that doesn't include them.

JACO, as for the pimp comment, there is no argument--Samite Healer has the pimpest collection.  One way to prove it: do you have a REAL Mox Crystal and Splendid Genesis?

A REAL Mox Crystal? How much would that be worth? And how did Jeff aquire it?

[Kowal]

It was a 5color only card.

0 cost mono artifact
t: add 1 to your pool

[Ric_Flair]

RE: Volcanic Island, first of all GAT and Tog can both be made without Volcanic Island.  Second, it is really about perception more than actual use.  Underground Sea is always harder to get or more expensive, or at least as expensive or hard to get.  Volcanic Island for all its actual utility is never more expensive or harder to get than Sea.

RE: Mox Crystal...I am not sure where he got it from, probaly the same place he gets all his crazy stuff from...unsuspecting suckers...no just kidding.  He has good contacts, so I am not sure.  A guy from a major internet dealer said it was worth $250 more than a year ago.  I am not sure how much it is worth now.  Lots, I suppose, seeing as I have never seen another one in 10 years plus of playing.

[Razvan]

It was a 5color only card.

0 cost mono artifact
t: add 1 to your pool

Yeah, I know what Mox Crystal does. I think there was one for sale on eBay last year.

If it's worth more than a real mox... aya, that's all that can be said.

Any chance those cards would be legal to play with?

[Jacob Orlove]

A REAL Mox Crystal? How how did Jeff aquire it? :)

The trade involved numerous unique misprints and error cards (on both sides), as well as one or two juzams (from Jeff). It's actually impossible to even estimate what each side of the deal was worth, because there isn't even a ballpark price for stuff like unique misprints.

[JACO]

[begin off topic]

JACO, as for the pimp comment, there is no argument--Samite Healer has the pimpest collection.  One way to prove it: do you have a REAL Mox Crystal and Splendid Genesis?

Not to get off topic here, but what the hell would I want a Mox Crystal and Splendid Genesis for? So they can sit in some 1/2 inch thick lucite screw down case? No thanks, I'll take that combined $1500+ and use it for something truly pimp, like Signed Foil Asian EVERYTHING. I'm willing to take the Pepsi Challenge against whatever deck(s) he wants to compare, as I've already offered to do in the How Pimp Is Your Collection thread. You and everybody else's East Coast Bias (ECB) will be your downfall, so I challenge team ECB to a duel of pimpness. [/end off topic]