[Deck] Team DD presents: Salvagers v3.0.dec

[TrixR4Kidz]

Lets just stop trashing the kid so much, so what he tried to make a new deck? it's not that big of a deal, Yea, maybe it won't be that good, but ya never know, he's just trying something new, which I don't see anything wrong with that.  I'm sure you have all tried bad decks before, JP meyer has had sexual relations with suicide black, I know this for fact, i've seen pictures, but that isn't my point.  The point is, trashing him got kinda old, while it was mildly funny a couple of pages ago, it's no longer the comedy it once was.

Hey dude, if you win a couple games with your deck, good for you, I'm hoping you actually do well with the deck, and raise some eyebrows.  I think there are more important things to tease, like how people think GAT is the best deck in the format and say it with a straight face......



no seriously, they don't even laugh....not a smile

Salvagers is the second funniest combo concept since Trix (notice my name)

[jpmeyer]

I think that is slightly harsh, and i find your choice of the word "blatently" rather interestingly... it seems that this entire thread has had alot of animocity toward the deck creator. Im still curious why this thread hasnt been locked after 5 pages of flaming, and having it moved to the newbie forum to having Dr. Sylvan bring it right back up to the open forum to have it trashed more... maybe im missing something, but its not my job to control traffic.

We really wanted to lock this thread, but the person who started it begged to have it kept open and brought out of the newbie forum, so Zherbus decreed that it be left open so that he can get what he wished for.  And see why threads get locked.  And what happens when threads that should be locked aren't.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Salvagers is the second funniest combo concept since Trix (notice my name)

Believe me, Team DD has tested a ton of crazy combos. We were so amused by the concept of Parfait Slaver that we went ahead and built it. Our resident Stax player mulliganed down to 3 (on purpose) and still beat it 3-0.

Innovation is evolution. Surpression is stagnation. A famous 14th century philosopher used a phrase to describe society back then, but perhaps it is necessary now.

[edit for later post]:

Have you heard ot Survival of the Fittest? This isn't stifling innovation, it is killing a bad deck. Remember when we killed EBA and sent it to the Sui/Obsolete forum, well this is the same thing.

A fine point, but EBA used to be considered decent.

[goober]

Innovation is evolution

Have you heard ot Survival of the Fittest?  This isn't stifling innovation, it is killing a bad deck.  Remember when we killed EBA and sent it to the Sui/Obsolete forum, well this is the same thing.

[wuaffiliate]

Innovation is evolution. Surpression is stagnation. A famous 14th century philosopher used a phrase to describe society back then, but perhaps it is necessary now.

Noone is surpressing you, your thread has been left open because you asked it to be. It is your own fault you cannot backup anything you post about your deck. If you have not placed or played in any decent tourneys why should this deck deserve any respect?

Most people who want to have a deck recognized have alot of playtesting and tourney backup before they post any sort of deck list. You missed that step, go directly to jail, do not collect $200.

[LotusHead]

WuAffiliate said- If you have not placed or played in any decent tourneys, why should this deck deserve respect?

My deck, which does NOT have the AK/Intuition draw engine (I opted for more Spellbomb/Cantrip artifacts), has done well in actual tourneys.

Granted, my path was easier at C&J's by luck. LUCK. But my opponents were unsure of what to do about me. I lost a game to each of my opponents. Sure. But my deck hasn't crapped out on me except on ONE game against Sligh. My deck lost to 7/10 because that deck is a bitch. (Still working on secret tech here. Will post tomorrow after the next tourney).

About the direction of this thread/FlameWar/Just Desserts for AngryPheldagrif's Salvagers3.0 deck: I have no (ok, a little) problem for the Flamers and NaySayers out there posting here saying "Your deck is the Suxxor!". I can deal with it. I am confident in my deck.  For the record, I, LotusHead, have almost NO T1 power types to playtest against where I live, except when I take MY deck that I built to T1 tourneys an hour's drive away.  AngryPheldagrif has one chance per month to take his deck to a T1 tourney.

Yes, we are posting before absolutely f-n full hard core T1 tourney testing has been done, but...Well, this deck IS new.

As for a reference earlier about my God Hands in the tourney matchups (after 7 pages of flame, you can look up the posts yourself): For the record, I built my deck to have those "God Hands." I hope that I built my deck better than my opponent, and that I would see the cards that I 4-of and 1-of more than my opponents.  

My deck IS different from AngryPheldagrif's for at least 3 reasons.

First: I don't use his AK/Intuition Engine. Why? I don't know.
Second: His deck has many many more NonBasic Land Types in it (7/10 defence). It is a Quandry whether to modify my mana base JUST to deal with Sundering Titans.
Third: My deck uses more Spellbomb/CantripArtifacts as kill conditions.
Fourth: I play with my cards, and I have 2 Drains, no Ancestral and no Time Walk.
Fourth: I have a cool name for my deck: SlapJack.

I am assuming that this is a good place to talk about Salvager decks in general, in addition to AngryPheldagrif's build. Salvagers is a new deck archetype and will not go away soon (at least in Northern California).

Until the next tourney, Later!

(I died to Chalice for FOUR!!! How many times does that happen???)

[Lost In Admiration]

This thread reminds me of the ABM threads.

[LotusHead]

Kowal posted on page four his theory of how matchups of Salvagers vs Bad Decks will pan out.

Salvagers is a Combo Deck versus Bad Decks.  Salvagers KILL bad decks.  That much has been made clear by my Tournament Results (Sligh, U/G MadnessX2, Suicide Void, Stompy).  The question is, can Salvagers deal with Good decks?

Answer: It can.

ok, I belive it can.  More actual Tournement testing in progress.

The only thing it has rolled over to is 7/10 in real life. (This being about my build. Salvagers 3.0 seems largely unaffected by it.). It is not like 4cc Control runs Null Rods.

Both builds have 10 or so forms of counter/disruption not including Wish solutions.

[rozetta]

This thread reminds me of the ABM threads.

I was going to say that, too. Didn't that tech come from the Bay Area as well?

[Purple Hat]

His build was not mine, and sounds pretty bad. I've never had problems with your deck in testing, and we never even considered Standstill. That's just bad card choice.

I'm aware that his build is not yours.  I believe his build was the one belonging to the unnamed "major team working on this" (shortbus?).  I'm amazed that you have done well against my deck in testing given that we haven't released the list yet and less then 25 people in the community have been sent/looked through/played against it.  Hows that telepathy going for you?  I'm probably going to start a thread on it some time next week when I've played in enough tournaments with it, and hopefully not x-2ed them, that I can can feel confident that I've got a good deck.  This is something you and your team would have been wise to do before repeatedly and beligerantly posting this thread.  This weekend will be my 3rd and 4th tournaments with 30-50+ players at them at which I will play my deck, but you probably knew all that what with being telepathic and all...

[Kowal]

To bring up one of Toad's points again:  I have no problem beating horrible decks with ReapLace, and I don't lose ANY of the three games to them.  Reaplace is still fucking horrible though.

EDIT:  I think this is more ascending to the ICT level than ABM.  This deck needs a pretentious three letter nickname so we can mock it for years to come.

[Purple Hat]

ben, how about SSC:Stupid Savlagers Combo

or SAD:Stupid Auriok salvagers Deck

SAC:Slow And Clunky?

all of these are off the top of my head I'll try to come up with some good ones at lunch.

EDIT:Shit, my hundredth post was about This total Pile?  NOW I'M PISSED!!!!!

[VGB]

ben, how about SSC:Stupid Savlagers Combo

or SAD:Stupid Auriok salvagers Deck

SAC:Slow And Clunky?

all of these are off the top of my head I'll try to come up with some good ones at lunch.

Don't ever assume that just because people share your petty disdain du jour that they are your friends - so don't try too hard to please, because the brown is starting to extend to your neck.

How about calling the deck NAS.d - not another salvager deck?

[Kowal]

Well, it is another Salvager deck.  And just as bad as the others.

None of those abbreviations are pretentious enough, though I must admit I have been calling it "sac" for a while now.

[VGB]

Well, it is another Salvager deck.  And just as bad as the others.

I really didn't intend the name I suggested to be positive (read the abbreviation as "nasty"), although in retrospect I guess it could be interpreted that way.

[wuaffiliate]

SAC:Slow And Clunky?

PERFECT!

[BloodyClownSuit]

ive always been big fan of combo. i was impressed when i first read about the combo but was put a little by all deck bashing. however i decided to put the deck together for myself and try it out. here is the deck list piloted:

1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
4 Trinket Mage
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Auriok Salvagers
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Cunning Wish
4 Mana Drain
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
2 Tundra
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 City of Brass
1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Time Walk
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald

Sideboard:
1 Maze of Ith
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Misdirection
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Disenchant
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Brain Freeze
1 Gamble
1 Stifle
1 Shallow Grave
1 Coffin Purge
1 Defense Grid
1 Shatterstorm

after reading about the problems null rod causes, i included Seal of Cleansings in the main deck to answer that problem. it is also very good versus ivory mask and stuff. on to the tourney report!

the store i play at, the cosmic hole, is very competitive and full of tier 1 decks. but with good preparation im ready for the challenge!

round 1 fight!: brian, ww

game 1: very tough game. what i thought to be the nut draw goes south a little with my salvager meeting his swords to plowshare. his lightning quick knights, both silver and white, are whooping on me. fortunately, i draw demonic tutor and was able to play another salvager next turn and combo out! whew that was close!

game 2: he gets a crazy hand! turn two knight followed by a turn three knight! these knights also had a pump ability so they did extra damage, forget what they were called. unfortunately, i could not out race the damage and he gets me.

game 3: again, im low on life and must go for the win. i have a spellbomb in play but its the red one and he has a silver knight out. i thought i could not kill it because of pro red but after the game i found out otherwise. anyway, i played a salvager and he tried to swords it but my sideboarded misdirection saves the day! takes out that mean knight and i combo off!

1-0

round 2 fight!: dave, 10l stompy

game 1: i know this is going to be even tougher since davids deck is also lightning fast, but green lightning fast. he top decks really well and with his mana accel from the elves he was able to cast force of nature. that guy is a beating! and i lose.

game 2: starts like game 1 and im feeling like im going to lose. however i get vampiric tutor and get my maze of ith. so when he eventually casts force of nature three turns later, i play the maze and his heart sinks! lol got you! this buys me enough time to find and combo out!

game 3: i get the nut draw and almost let a little pee out! i get a first turn salvager out with help of lotus. turn four i top deck a spellbomb and go to town!

2-0

round 3 fight!: emmanuel (sp?), sly

game 1: he draws many many burn spells but goes for my dome. fortunately he doesn't see the power of this deck and i safely combo him out because his hand size is down and salvagers survives bolts! hehe

game 2: he said he sideboarded more burn spell to kill me even faster! so i have to be on top of my game and not make any mistakes to achieve victory. lucky for me he gets mana screwed. his hand if full of burn spells but only has one red mana. he can only cast on burn per turn. i get him by combo again!

3-0

round 4 (the final round) fight!: phil, battle of wits

game 1: im impressed by the size of his deck. i swear it must have been 13 inches high off the table! this is an epic battle. i wasn't sure what he was playing at first. we have many counter magic wars but his deck is too resiliant. and he was topdecking like a champ. finally he breaks through my counter wall! argh! and plays battle of wits. ive never seen the card before and must read and have it explained to me. on my turn, i thought i won! i get a seal of cleansing and try to play it to blow up the wits. but he counters it! in response i cunning wish for misdirection but then realize that cunning wish was the only blue card in my hand. darn it for not having another blue card. unfortunately, this game took a long time and we were not able to finish game 2. harumph!

3-1

so phil gets first place and i get second. not bad! i think this deck has great potential and really can be fined tuned. to the nay sayers, just try the deck, please. and you will be convinced.

[goober]

Why is it that when someone says a store is competitive, they report stompy, sly (sligh),  ww, battle of wits, or other horrible decks?

You meta is EASY therefore a bad combo deck will win.  If you ran any other deck that is good you would have won.  Coming in second there is actually a good argument AGAINST your deck.

[cssamerican]

the store i play at, the cosmic hole, is very competitive and full of tier 1 decks. but with good preparation im ready for the challenge!

round 1 fight!: brian, ww

round 2 fight!: dave, 10l stompy

round 3 fight!: emmanuel (sp?), sly

round 4 (the final round) fight!: phil, battle of wits

Isn't this an oxymoron or would it be a moron on Oxycontin. You decide!

[L-O-N]

BCS was just making a joke, you guys.   At least I hope he was...

[DEA]

me, i'm trying to figure out which full user this guy is
check out the name
tell me you'd take that seriously

[wuaffiliate]

why not? thats a kick ass name.

[LotusHead]

(EDIT: To BloodyClownSuit.  Your build and mine are fairly similar. That is ok.  Your innovation of using Seal of Cleansing is EXACTLY the kind of help/discussion we are looking for.  Salvagers DIE to Null Rod if we can't find an answer.  You have suggested an answer. THANK YOU.  Good luck with your build. I have noticed that Salvager/TrinketMage/Spellbomb decks are easy to throw together and win.  It's about optimizing now. END EDIT)

I am assuming that many people here have not read the Salvager threads in the Newbie Forum. AngryPheldagrif requested that his thread be kept in the Open T1 forum for a wider audience.  It worked.  However, not much discussion has been going on about how to improve the deck.  Improving the deck was, I belive, the point of the thread for this new archetype.  

I belive that this deck (well, deck Archetype) is viable, if not fully optimized yet.  This is where TheManaDrain comes in.  This is not about team secrecy.  Team ShortBus chickened out on playing their rumored Trinket build.  That's their choice.  They're keeping things secret. That too is their choice. If you don't feel like thinking about improvements, don't worry about it.  Let others do the innovating, and you can play their decks. That would be your choice.

For further discussion, this is the build that I have been using.  All of my posts about Salvagers have been based on my experience with this build.  AngryPheldagrif's build tries to acheive the same end (control/combo/Salvagers/SpellBombs) but he chose to go with a draw engine and more non-basic land types.  Oh, and he has better cards than me (only two Mana Drains here.)

This is just to expand the base of discussion for our ever growing audience with the Salvagers Combo Archetype.  For future reference, would posters say what deck they usually play nowadays so I have an idea of what "the metagame" is of the naysayers and/or non-naysayers.  If that is not too personal, of course. You can't ALL be playing Tog, right?

SlapJack by LotusHead    An Auriok Salvagers Control/Combo deck.

Mana Base (23)
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strain
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Tolarian Academy
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

Combo Critters (9)
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Trinket Mages
1 Gorilla Shaman (Lucky mox monkey, maindeck)

Control Angle (12)
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Drain
2 Ertai's Meddling (Don't hate me too much for this, pretend they're Drains)
1 Misdirection
1 Stifle (Lucky Stifle, often pitched to Force. Usually usefull otherwise)
2 Cunning Wish

Draw/Search/Utility/Spellbombs (16)
4 Brainstorm
2 Intuition (MVP for any time. These are must counters/bait)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 TimeTwister
1 Pyrite Spellbomb (Kill Card if/when I go off)
2 AEther Spellbombs (Kill card due to draw mechanism/Salvaging)
2 Chromatic Spheres (Kill card due to draw mechanism/Salvaging)
1 Engineered Explosives (Maindeck hate card. I can recur this as well.)

Sideboard (15)
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stifle
1 Misdirection
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Entomb
9 Secret Cards

Is this deck Togless Tog? No. It may be Dragonless Dragon if you will.  

It can win on turn 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5, or whenever I feel like it.  The opponent just won't know unless they Duress me. Even if they do, they can't take Trinket Mages or Salvagers. Even if they take Lotus, I can get it back.

Why play this deck Archetype (not neccessarily THIS build)? That's easy! Play it because of the Trinket Mages and Auriok Salvagers!

The Trinket Mages can get you a Black Lotus. Trinket Mages are unrestricted Lotus meat tutors.  This is in addition to regular tutors. This is in addition to Trinketing for Explosives or AEther Spellbomb or just some more Moxen.

Auriok Salvagers are meat. 2/4 creatures.  They can recur the Black Lotus. Or they can recure a Spellbomb. Or they can get back dead moxen. Or Engineered Explosives. Usually, they just win games.  

My deck and AngryPheldagrif's both decided to go the control route to back up the combo. Salvager decks may go a different route in the future.  But as Salvager decks are just now being tested, we have the Combo/Control angle going now.

The way MY deck works is this:
Plan A: Get a good hand, combo out early with FoW backup. It happens.
Plan B: Get a different good hand and try to not die early.  Trinket Mages can chump if need be, but the combo parts will come.
Plan C: Hope my opponent is playing a combo deck (I have had lots of luck against these.  10 Disruption/2 Wishes. Yay!)
Plan D: Get an AEther Spellbomb into play and let the opponent deal with it. (Still working on the 7/10 thing folks.)
Plan E: Mulligan down to one of the above 4 plans.
Plan F: Go for the beat down!  If I disrupt their deck enough, who knows? The mages may just go in for the kill! With 2 Mages out, the game is on a 5 turn clock! This assumes that the opponent hasn't lost life due to fetchlands yet.

This deck, and AngryPheldagrif's have a lot of game plans.  Mine has been able to compete with the big boys, so far, using a new engine from 5th Dawn.  

No one has claimed that this deck is "The Bestest Deck Ever," just that it is new and has performed well so far and can be made better.  

Mods: Letting a thread be posted in the Open Type 1 forum WITH permission for a wider audience on a new decktype is a good idea, IF the original post is filled with enough content/explanation/thought.
Letting a thread be completely un-Moderated (no holding anyone accountable to regular TMD rules) is a bad idea.  

At the very least, moderate unneccessary use of profanity.  Even some full members perpetuate the flames with their disregard for the rules.

[wuaffiliate]

Also if the mods are going to mod this thread, they will just lock it and move it. You cannot chose just one aspect of moderation, this thread/deck also break rules by sucking too much.

[Zherbus]

Mods: Letting a thread be posted in the Open Type 1 forum WITH permission for a wider audience on a new decktype is a good idea, IF the original post is filled with enough content/explanation/thought.
Letting a thread be completely un-Moderated (no holding anyone accountable to regular TMD rules) is a bad idea.

Thanks for the advice, but I'm making a point.

[AngryPheldagrif]

*oft flamed stuff*

I really hope you're joking, as beating random aggro is just going to draw more flames for this thread, but killing the draw/tutor base for more disruption is not the way to go. Cunning Wish handles the Rod just fine for the purpose.

Thanks for the advice, but I'm making a point.

I really wish someone had passed me the memo beforehand. This was supposed to be deck discussion.

-Dan

[Purple Hat]

For future reference, would posters say what deck they usually play nowadays so I have an idea of what "the metagame" is of the naysayers and/or non-naysayers. If that is not too personal, of course. You can't ALL be playing Tog, right?

Questions like this are why this thread should be in newbie.  How can you possibly claim to have tested against relevent decks if you don't know what the metagame consists of?

Here's a rough list of what I test against:
Combo:
Draw7
Dragon

Control:
Hulk
Germbus

Aggro/Control:
Fish
GAT

Prison:
Stax/MUD
Drain Slaver

Other:
7/10
FCG

I'm probably missing some stuff cus I'm at work and I don't have my list handy.  Notice how the "Tier 1" decks that you played against (Stompy, sligh, suicide, etc.) are not on this list.  The competative type one community believes these decks to be obsolite.  There's a good reason for this.  Pure aggro simply CANNOT stand up to combo.  If you are going to play against combo (heres a hint:in type one you will) a pure aggro deck SHOULD lose every time.  Aggro decks put you on a 3-4 turn clock.  Combo decks SHOULD put you on a 2 turn clock.  These numbers are for pure goldfish which is what the Combo vs Pure Aggro match comes down to.  Aggro loses unless something goes horribly wrong for the combo player because the combo player can combo out before the aggro player can make the kill.  Basically these decks both try to solve problems with the fix all strategy of "Remove target opponent from the game" Combo is just better at it.

Your tournament results are worthless for competative type one because your metagame isn't competative.  You played your non-competative combo deck against some non competative aggro decks and won.  Props man, seriously.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Here's a rough list of what I test against:
Combo:
Draw7
Dragon

Control:
Hulk
Germbus

Aggro/Control:
Fish
GAT

Prison:
Stax/MUD
Drain Slaver

Other:
7/10
FCG

Add in Belcher, TnT, Oshawa, and a few misc. decks like Sligh and such, and that's what I've tested against.

I do not think that this is good based on a couple random tournament showings (1 of which might be a joke, we're not sure), but this has and is being tested extensively.

-Dan

[edit]: UBB

[LotusHead]

I AM aware of the decks that are out there.  At the T1 tourney that I won first place in, MOST of those decks were there.  Everyone was fully powered. The pairings were random. I faced different decks. Pretty much everyone played a different deck. (1 Fish, 1 Hulk Smash, 1 Belcher, 1 Control Slaver, etc).

My request for users letting me know what deck they are currently playing was just that, a request.  For example, what are YOU currently playing? Are you playing Tog at the moment? Draw7? Fish? What?

I am aware that many people play many different decks, and that this thread is about a new deck archetype.

I have played against exactly half the deck types that you listed.  Got a tourney today, so we all shall see, no?

Keep posts productive!

[goober]

It is far more productive to abondon a dead horse, and work on good decks.  We shipped EBA and Sui off to Obsolete, and nobody blamed us for stifling innnovation.  EBA was a bad Germbus, this is a bad Tog.  I don't care if you win against good decks tomorrow.  It will still be suboptimal.  EBA wasn't a bad deck.  It could still win tournaments and place high.  It was just that if you turned it into Germbus every game it played would have been easier.  Same with this.  

You have a very similar shell to Tog, and that shell can do well.  Drain, Fow, Intuition->AK, and Brainstorm are all very good cards.  You can ride those to victory often, and probably will.  But the other cards (Salvegger based ones) are weaker than the things in Tog which they replace.  4 Salvagers 4 Trinket Mages, 1 Pyrite Spellbomb, and 1 LE.  That is 10 cards which do not help you get control of the game.  Replace them with 3 Togs and 7 other good cards makes the deck a lot better.

Control decks like to run 1 win condition, which doesn't clog up your hand early.  Germbus runs 2-3 Angels and 1-2 Decrees, which is 5 slots.  Tog runs 3 Togs, 3 slots.  Those few slots allow for more answers to its oppponent.

Optimizing this deck makes it Tog, so we can stop talking about trying to improve this, because I knowwhere it should lead, if you guys stop being so stubborn about the Salvagers.