Madness Wins Against Fish: Continues To Be Bad Deck

[Machinus]

As a player with a lot of experience with the U/G madness deck and its many iterations, I can confidently say that I am qualified to talk about its current state in the metagame.

I took U/G Madness to the SCG tournament, since I was expecting lots of fish and workshops, but I lost to some very fortunate draws at the hands of my opponents. Here is a sample:

Round 1, vs. Workshop Guy

T1: He goes reef -> welder, I say force. On my turn, I waste his land.
T2: He goes workshop -> 3sphere, I say force. On my turn, I lay a land and say go with a brainstorm or something in hand.
T3: He goes land, crypt, sol ring, 3pshere. I say FUCK and scoop.

Game 2: I can't counter his turn 2 tinker, which gets him a Colossus. I have NO answers for that in MD or SB. Scoop.

Then in round three, I faced a deck I should have beaten, monored sligh. I won game 2, but he went first games one and three and that was enough. Game 3 he EOT POP twice for six each after I laid an arrogant during combat to kill his pup. GG tapped nonbasic lands. Also, I drew all 3 maindeck nullrods that game (my build ended up being remarkabaly similar to JPs despite my attempt to develop it on my own, and since I was expecting workshops).

Anyway, I lost fair and square, but that is not the subject of this post. I wish to discuss what I think about Madness as a deck. It beats fish just fine, but the metagame isn't going to be saturated enough with Fish to justify it. I hated having to run the Null Rods; I really wanted to put in black and run duresses, but that would wreak havoc on the manabase since there are like eighteen/nineteen lands, and five of those are strips. I considered Annuls but that seemed silly with Oxidizes in the board. In retrospect, there was little else that could have saved me against fast artifact mana and lock parts. [Annuls also catch the eight enchantments in fish (like it needs the help), workshop fatties, acceleration, blood moon, food chain, crucible, and disk & deed.]

Back in Invasion-7th-Odyssey standard, Madness was really stupendous because of the resistance to key cards like duress and edict, and superior strategy with wonder and really cheap counters. It had no problem dumping cards in the yard with Studies and could come back from a mutilate or wrath really fast. The vintage version of the deck is SO far removed from this that I wouldn't really want to call them the same deck. I would call the Bazaar version madness, but without Bazaars the deck needs stronger control elements to win. This is where my main problem with the deck comes in.

Fish is really successful, in my opinion, not mainly because it is a "hate" deck (I don't think it is justifiable to call anything in the deck "hate" except for null rods - cheap counters, draw, and mana disruption are fundamentals for aggro-control), but because it has lots of cheap threats which are independent of the other cards in the deck. All of the cards in the deck have synergy with each other, yet none of them are depenedent. Cloud of fairies works with all the other 2 drops, it works with 1 drops and strip effects; strips and Spiketail work with Daze; mancer works with fetches, strips, and cheap counters - yet there is no "backbone," no "core" to the deck that can be targeted and destroyed. The deck is vulnerable to things which target aggro-control decks, but that is it. This is why Fish is a better deck than Madness even though it would lose to it more than half the time pre-sideboard.

The card I have disliked most in the deck since I began playing it in Type 1 is Arrogant Wurm. It it the only card in the deck which you HAVE TO pay more than 2 to cast. This was incessantly destructive and annoying. While most people who would build a Madness deck would attempt to pack in as much 'discard fodder' as they could in order to increase the potency of the deck, I have considered, SERIOUSLY, cards like frantic search, which are shitty with the 2 moxen in the deck and the moderate amount of discard fodder, but which address the decks main and glaring weakness: lack of, and dependence on, madness outlets. Arrogant Wurm makes this weakness glaringly obvious when trying to play against really strong, resilient decks. If it does not have either a mongrel or a moeba out, madness CANNOT FUNCTION. Thirty two percent of the deck becomes dead if there is no madness outlet. The deck cannot play the disruption game seriously if it is trying to get to three mana to hardcast logics or FIVE to hardcast wurms. The deck puts itself in a vulnerable position by not being able to unconditionally counter the opponent's most serious threat; if the opponent decides to target the outlet on the board as well as trying to advance their own game plan, the madness player can choose to either let both players play their game, or neither; it cannot advance its own position while disrupting the development of the other player. This becomes more painful when playing against decks which can easily sidestep the almost insufficent disruption that Madness packs - I don't mean to destroy the chances of Madness in the future, since I really like the deck and have a lot of fun with it, but all a good player has to do is either counter or destroy the madness outlet and the game is effectively over, barring a really good draw - but then, all you have to do is counter/destroy the second outlet, and the deck is dead in the water again.

A good draw for the madness player goes something like this:

T1: Land, brainstorm EOT, force if you need it and can find it.
T2: Fetch, mongrel.

This is the second most deadly time for the madness deck. The deck is tapped out and cannot protect itself from really dangerous threats, and it cannot defend it's crucial madness outlet.

T3: Discard analysis and maybe a rootwalla or wonder, draw 2, attack, leave U open for logic. Or, waste a land, discard something attack, and have U open for logic.

I know JP would tell you to lay an arrogant during combat to squeeze in extra damage; I don't feel like this is right. Even if you go first, opponent has drain mana up. This is the most dangerous time for the Madness deck. It really wants to tap out, but the chances of getting the right setup so that you can drop an outlet turn 2, and then a wurm turn 3, and get away with it are really low. Even if you do, the opponent has an open window to get an answer not just for your wurm, but also for your mongrel. Unmolested, most decks will take full advantage of the opportunity to clinch the game. Either of the spheres, a welder, an angel...while the win condition of Madness may have strategy superiority over the rest of the metagame, it's disruption and threat deployment are vastly inferior to even relatively simple ones like drain -> scrying/angel, or workshop/tomb + mox -> lock part.

The deck NEEDS to do three things. The first two are fuck up the opponent's manabase and put on pressure with early creatures. These two in conjunction will lead the opponent to adopt a course of action which is more catch-up than go-for-broke; then the third thing the madness deck needs to do is disrupt their attempts to catch up with counters. Sadly, the deck is built in such a way that it can't really do all these things at the same time. If you decide to deny mana, you can't cast any threats and you let the opponent draw answers to yours. If you decide to cast threats, you can't counter anything and likely have to hold on to your mana disruption. And if you try to counter, your threat quality will be lower and you will give your opponent more draw steps than you have counters to fend them off with.

The conflict between these three aspects of the deck, or two if you prefer (disruption and kill), makes this deck really terrible for a metagame with decks that are WAY more efficient (fish), and WAY more powerful and broken (titan, stax, whatever). Madness lives in the space between tog's inefficiency to deal with the early game in any way besides beserk, aggro's smaller threats and weaker disroption, and the inconsistency of artifact decks. This space has vanished with the prevalence of a BETTER aggo-control deck and the waning of top-heavy control decks.

I would, honestly, like to develop bazaarless Madness to a point where it could compete with the higher power of workshop and drain, but the core of the deck is itself easily disruptable, and for this reason I have doubts that it can do well in anything unlike that columbus metagame.

[Sammy]

I love u/g madness, mainly because I used to play Oshawa Stompy [] and found that to be lacking, and u/g took it and made it win.

You say you wanted more mana disruption, then why not play Crop Rotation/Crucible? Also SB Back to Basics works well (my friend won a tourny this way, you've probably read the report). So, if you're not feeling the Null Rods, then drop them for 2 Crucible and 1 Crop Rotation, or something like that.

I also have a question, and I may just be missing something obvious, but why doesn't it run Bazaars?

[Lyhrrus]

U/G Madness does not have the resources to run and/or abuse bazaar.  It already runs a thin mana and thin threat base.  It does not use Squee to generate card advantage.

As Machinus noted, Madness is vulnerable because it does not have the resources to keep pace with any Tier 1 deck.  Even though I have only played with it for a short while, I notice some glaring holes.

I find myself constantly frustrated with Wurms in hand, along with a logic, but only 2-3 mana on board.  If I drop my Wurm to add pressure, I lose the ability to counter for the turn.  If I hold back Wurm, I give my opponent another turn to find an answer.  If I have an outlet and a Rootwalla, and only 2 mana, I face the same situation.

Madness truly is dead without an outlet, and I would consider 4 of those to be quite subpar (Aquamoeba).

For all of its disruption, Madness itself is largely vulnerable to Wastelands, Blood Moon, and other NBLH or mana denial tactics, which makes me find Fish not even a favorable match-up game 1.

Going through differences between U/G Madness (jp's build) and U/R Fish (PTW's build)

Fish:  24-25 Mana Sources, 21 Threats, 10 Draw, 10-11 Disruption/Counter

Madness:  22 Mana Sources,  16 Threats, 9 Draw, 11 Disruption/Counter

Madness has a thinner/weaker manabase, a lower threat density, a worse draw engine, and a lower Disruption/Counter base (Fish has a higher base than listed because of Spiketail Hatchling).  Granted, you have brainstorm to find your land, but you end up trading your draw power to actually find land.

At the very least, I would cut 1 Arrogant Wurm and 1 Circular Logic for 2 Stifles (just as much to disrupt the opponent as well as protect your own base, as well as Timewalk vs. combo).  In addition, I would like to squeeze in another land at least, because Madness is very mana intensive.  With 3 Artifact Mana sources, Null Rod is very anti-synergistic.  I can't even say that the ability to drop first turn Null Rod is all that great except against Combo.  You actually have a very large chance of shutting youself down as well.  Maybe cut a Wonder.  I know Wonder allows you to fly over Tog, and other random aggro, but what about Fish?  You'll be needing to hold back blockers for their curious bits.  Against workshop, they'll be beating you down harder or locking you down more so Wonder is little more than Force fodder.  Against combo?  No comment.  Wonder is also poor synergy with Gush, when you need to dig that cruicial Force.

I find the same problems with U/G Madness that I do with Sligh.  20 Life is just too much.  Fish can afford to chip away as they progressively lock down the board.  Also Madness if rife with ways of getting 2 for 1ed.  To keep damage up with Aquamoebas, you need to pitch every turn.  Run into a Mishra's Factory?  Ouch.  How about a 2/2?  Bouce right off unless you want to ditch a couple more cards.  Good cards to ditch, maybe 6 of them, 4 lizards and some deeps.

Both Fish and Madness have crucial Turn 2 plays, the difference being fish can go Fairies/Hatchling/Daze in hand, Fairies/Standstill/man-land backup, while Madness drops it's outlet with no responses.  I would say Madness just lacks the tempo to keep up in general.

[Serin]

I've been playing with Frantic Search, and although people in TMD say its crap, it has been working nice for me, guaranteeing a Wurm third turn, even if they kill my madness outlet.

A good addition to protect your second turn play is Daze, have you tried it ?

[rockdoc]

could you post your decklist?

[Nantuko Rice]

Serin... how Does Frantic help you get a 3rd turn Wurm?

Unless I don't know how to play magic... don't you draw 2, discard 3, and then untap. And by the time you untap you lose the chance to cast arrogant wurm?

I thought it was for that reason that people didn't play frantic search in u/g madness.

[wonkey_donkey]

Serin... how Does Frantic help you get a 3rd turn Wurm?

Unless I don't know how to play magic... don't you draw 2, discard 3, and then untap. And by the time you untap you lose the chance to cast arrogant wurm?

I thought it was for that reason that people didn't play frantic search in u/g madness.

No, this is how it works:

Cast Frantic Search.
Search Resolves and you discard Arrogant Wurm.
As part of the FS's resolution you untap the lands, and then...
Madness trigger goes on the stack, removing the wurm from the game.
You may now (if you are the active player and the stack is empty) play a land before paying the madness cost - the next time you pass priority without having played the wurm, the madness spell (in this case arrogant wurm) goes to the graveyard. Alternatively, if you pay the madness cost, it can come into play.

I hope this is sufficiently clear.

Tom

[Serin]

My deck is Unpowered, as here in Spain almost every tournament is sanctioned, so Im running Frantic Search in the place of Ancestral Recall.

So I think that posting a sub-optimal list isnt worth it, anyways here are my changes:

Im trying 2 Dazes in the places of Black Lotus and Timewalk, I had before 2 Were Bears and they were working quite nicely but I wanted to try the Dazes to protect my second turn plays. I'd like to try 4 for its maximun effectiveness, but dont know what to cut, maybe 2 logics, but I'm not sure.

I've read that JpMeyer tried Daze instead of Logic during the "creation" of the deck, but dismissed them, I think Daze is good in addition to FoW and Logic, but running 12 counters could be too much countermagic.

[raziel]

Machinus - I'm on my way out or else I would give a more detailed post. I will suggest looking at Extended Decklist of U/G madness. I have had a great deal of success with a combination of Waterfront Bouncer, Gilded Drake, and even Daze. There's nothing like bouncing back or stealing opponents creatures. I'm sure that's where JP started and then tweaked towards the Columbus meta. Mine has been tweaked more towards the meta I see.

[Raven Fire]

Maybe cut a Wonder.  I know Wonder allows you to fly over Tog, and other random aggro, but what about Fish?  You'll be needing to hold back blockers for their curious bits.

And since Faeries are the most likely blockable Curiosity target, why would you want to cut Wonder in the Fish match-up?

Can the deck be shifted to be more like Fish during the early turns,  dropping Logics (which are not playable until turn 3, and even then are restrictive to your development) for Dazes/Stifles?  Lastly, there seemed to be a sideboard shift away from SoFI and towards Chill.  Is FCG really on the decline, and if so, how would this affect the board set up?

[Lyhrrus]

I'm saying wonder is only useful in the Tog, Fish and scrubby aggro matchups, maybe even FCG, but overall it doesn't pull its weight.  What are you going to do, hardcast wonder?  2/2 Fliers for 4 may be fine in Limited but not in Type 1.  In addition, Gush has poor synergy with Wonder, as you'll often be lacking islands.  I'm just saying that the deck has issues, and I don't feel that the Wonder slot has pulled its weight.

[raziel]

Well back on topic, for the hell of it here's my creature and counter base:
4 basking rootwalla
4 wild mongrel
3 aquamoeba
3 arrogant wurm
3 waterfront bouncer
2 wonder

4 force of will
3 circular logic
1 daze

sb
2-3 gilded drake
3 null rod

This is only a partial list. With W. Bouncer I can take care of most creatures. I can bring in Drakes or Rods game 2. In terms of mana I've found 23 to be better. Just my 2 cents.

[Hyperion]

Thread cleaned and offending posts deleted. Keep personal matters not relevant to this dicussion to PMs.

[jpmeyer]

Maybe cut a Wonder.  I know Wonder allows you to fly over Tog, and other random aggro, but what about Fish?  You'll be needing to hold back blockers for their curious bits.

And since Faeries are the most likely blockable Curiosity target, why would you want to cut Wonder in the Fish match-up?

Can the deck be shifted to be more like Fish during the early turns,  dropping Logics (which are not playable until turn 3, and even then are restrictive to your development) for Dazes/Stifles?  Lastly, there seemed to be a sideboard shift away from SoFI and towards Chill.  Is FCG really on the decline, and if so, how would this affect the board set up?

With the focus on Fish now, Daze should go in over Logic since it helps you resolve that critical Mongrel or Aquamoeba.

Wonder is also good against Workshop aggro.  It's not hard to generate around 7 power per turn like Workshop can, but it sucks when you are just throwing your say, Wild Mongrels into Titans or your Aquamoebas into Su-Chis.

[Machinus]

I would never cut logic from a madness deck. I ran three Daze when I played in Spartanburg, and they were really good, as I said in my report from that tournament - but logic is the key disruption spell of the entire deck. It is the decks strongest, and pretty much ONLY, defense against creature removal. You cannot afford to lose your madness outlet, and logic protects them extremely well.

[kirdape3]

You only need your Madness outlet one time, and that's to pump out an Arrogant Wurm for 2G as opposed to 3GG.  After that, good beats.  Logic is just for random situations when you're not winning fast enough - Daze puts you in a position TO win fast enough.

[Raven Fire]

but logic is the key disruption spell of the entire deck.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand this statement.  How is Logic more of a key spell than FoW or Null Rod (both of which can actually be played against combo)?

[Machinus]

It is a hard counter for U that keeps you in control of the game once you have established it. Fow will get pitched when you are tapped out and makes you lose a card. Logic is stronger than that since you don't lose a card (which is a big deal for a deck that is based around discarding) and can keep attacking and disrupting while only keeping U open. Null rod isn't guaranteed to do anything, and it certainly won't just win the game. Logic can keep your dudes alive and can keep your opponent from advancing their board position.

[Magi]

It is a hard counter for U that keeps you in control of the game once you have established it. Fow will get pitched when you are tapped out and makes you lose a card. Logic is stronger than that since you don't lose a card (which is a big deal for a deck that is based around discarding) and can keep attacking and disrupting while only keeping U open.

Logic SUCKS THE HARD BALLS

It comes online usually turn 3 WITH OR WITHOUT a Madness outlet. Even then, it's still conditional. Logic is the true weak point in the whole deck. Stifle would be better. Heck, I feel Mana leak would be better.

Null Rod and FoW are the absolute BACKBONE of not only Madness but Fish + variants and any successful aggro-control deck to date. I dare say those are the only 2 cards keeping budget in this format (actually it's more like Null Rod, the anti-Mox)

Null rod isn't guaranteed to do anything, and it certainly won't just win the game. Logic can keep your dudes alive and can keep your opponent from advancing their board position.

Oh man, My dear old Nothing Sticks have won me more games than any other card I've ever played in T1, back since the day I used them in Suicide loooong time ago. They are truly, the budget players best friend.

[Serin]

Null rod isn't guaranteed to do anything

No -- it does nothing.

Sorry, couldnt resist quoting the text .

I would never cut the MD rods as long as I play on a powered metagame, and I would never change Logics for Dazes, maybe add 2 Dazes, or even add 4 Dazes and remove 2 Logics because I think 12 counters on a aggro-control deck are too much. Thus far I've been loving 2 MD Dazes, mainly when I play one first game, then, my opponent plays more carefully, leaving 1 open mana. You can even SB them out for game 2 and they will still have to guess if you have them.

[Raven Fire]

Logic SUCKS THE HARD BALLS

Given this, would it be better to run a counter base similar to that of Fish?  Maybe replace the 4 Logics with 2 Daze, a Stifle, and a MisD?  I'm currently running 2 Logics and 2 Dazes and have been somewhat happy.  The Dazes have certainly been nice during the first few turns, but after that they are only good for dog food.  Since Madness wants to win fairly soon after that, maybe that's all that needs to be expected from a card.  I think I would miss the late game "No!" of Logic if I cut it entirely.
Also, what are people's thoughts on Crucible in U/G Madness?  It doesn't run man-lands, but it does run a good number of fetches (which would be nice to recur for use after Brainstorms) and strips.  Would it be worth a slot or two in at least the sideboard?

[Cross]

Also, what are people's thoughts on Crucible in U/G Madness?

It seems that every deck nowadays is trying to fit in crucible. It's almost in all workshop decks, 4cc players are using it in their board, and some maindeck, and in fish it is sweet in the sideboard for protection/recurring strip effects against any deck that tries to use crucible on them, especially the mirror matchup. Although I haven't playtested the crucible in madness it seems like its slot would be more in the sideboard. While crucible is always good, from my experience the point of madness is to beat your opponents face in with wurms and mongrels as quickly as possible. It seems that running crucible might slow this process, but add protection to yourself against decks that abuse crucible, or to redundantly increase their odds against fish.

[Shock Wave]

It seems that every deck nowadays is trying to fit in crucible.

... which is a very indicative that it is broken. This card is not good for the format. It is becoming to T1 what Skullclamp became to T2: every deck is running it. This doesn't really pertain to the topic, but it's about time that we started to get the ball rolling on this issue.

[Smmenen]

Wait a moment...

Crucible doesn't draw massive amounts of cards, nor does it actually do much of anything in one or even two turns.  Every card that has been restricted in recent memory has been a mana accellerant or a card drawer.  

Crucible is good not becuase it is inherently strong, but becuase the metagame is so slow.  Additionally, in every deck but Workshop decks, it is a SB card, or perhaps a singleton in the maindeck.  Marc had a single one in his SB.  Carl Winter played with a single one maindeck and 2 in the SB.  

So, even if you restricted it, that wouldn't stop playing with the single copy in his SB or Carl playing the single copy in his maindeck.  You restrict cards that you fear in multiples, and to my knowledge, very, very few decks run more than one in the maindeck at the moment.  And remember, the broken use is to recur Wastelands/Strip Mine.  

I don't consider that inherently broken, I consider that a metagame issue. I suspect much of that will sort itself out at Gencon.

[Shock Wave]

Crucible is good not becuase it is inherently strong, but becuase the metagame is so slow.

Thta doesn't mean that restriction is not warranted. The metagame dictates what constitutes a broken card or a broken mechanic. If the metagame is such that slow cards are carrying the play, that means that certain other cards will become more powerful or in the case of Crucible, absolutely broken.

I have played many a control mirror since the advent of Crucible, and I can attest that whoever resolves a Crucible first is the victor the majority of the time. These Crucible/Trini/Waste locks are pretty ridiculous too, considering that establishment of the combo occurs on turn 1 with the resolution of Trinisphere.

I respect your judgement and admit that I may be incorrect, but I've played with/against the card long enough to say that in my experiences, resolution is too often game deciding.

[Cross]

I agree with Smmenen that the crucible should not be restricted for those reasons.

However I can say that i have lost every game that the crucible has been resolved on me, whether in play or in tournament. All of these games have been played with fish, which is an inherently slow deck, and may play into these losses. Shock wave is right in saying that in combination with trinisphere the card is a house and it is so hard to come back from.

[nataz]

Back on topic

Daze > Logic when trying to resolve a turn two madness outlet

t1 Brainstorm
t2 madness outlet
t3 Arrogant

or

t1 brainstorm
t2 null rod

Are not only a thing of beauty, but also often how this deck wins. None of these plays are protected by logic.

This deck absolutely needs to resolve an early madness outlet, or else it mind as well play out like a bad stompy. Daze helps you to accomplish that goal, and therefore deserves a place in this deck.

As to the question of outright replacing logic with daze, I’m not so sure on. I would feel much more comfy cutting a different card, and then playing 3 daze and two logics.

[BreathWeapon]

Crucible of Worlds is definately a Card Drawing mechanic, Steve. The ability to guarantee a Fetch Land every turn inconjunction with Brainstorm or Sylvan Library is Nutz. IMO, it's easily one of the best cards in Keeper's MD right now (I cut Monkey #2). It does more than just "Waste Stuff." That said, I haven't seen any deck use more tha 2 of them MD yet, restricting it wouldn't do much. Hell, it would probably just convince everybody to play 1 in the MD

That said, I think the card could find room in U/g Madness "if" your playing a budget version. It effectively allows you to play "Prison" whenever it resolves.

@Daze, I think you can fit Daze into the MD easily, more so if your playing Budget. At worst they pitch to FoW or get fed to Outlets for extra Damage. You could consider removing Wonders from the MD and SB them to make space. With HULK "gone" and 4cc taking to the skys, Wonder doesn't make a great deal of sense in the MD.

@MisD, Stifle, Daze, Oxidize: I've seen the 4 of 1xDisruption slots used before, and I think it definately has some potential. I don't think it will be as strong for Madness as it is for Fish, simply because Madness is more direct.

[jpmeyer]

Wonder is great against Keeper because it lets you kill Exalted Angels before boarding.  You also need to be able to race Fish/Workshop aggro.

[Bronx]

To sway the discussion a bit, let me talk some sideboard.

There are, of course, the givens..

But I was considering the possibility of adding Ground Seal.
In theory, it looks like moderate hoser as far as welder is concerned. It also puts forth a struggle for Dragon. I'll have to do some testing.