[Discussion] 7/10

[BreathWeapon]

After a rather dissapointing run of playtest games on Apprentice with conventional lists and 7/10's poor showing at the Starcity Event, I thought it would be appropriate to open a discussion on 7/10's viability in the metagame. So far, there seems to be very little public consensus on what the Deck should look like. The majority of builds I've seen are either Shop Slaver substituting Titans or unfocused piles of FAT. Meandeck's Titan from the Starcity T16 is interesting, but I'd like to concentrate on Shop variants.

After some serious adjustments, this is my current working list:

"7/10.Dec"

Erhnam/Geddon (4)
4xSundering Titan

The Union (8)
4xMetalworker
4xGoblin Welder

Utility (3)
1xDuplicant
1xTriskelion
1xKarn, Silver Golemn

Wild Card (1)
1x???

Lock Components (8)
4xTrinisphere
4xChalice of the Void

Draw Engine (10)
1xMemory Jar
1xTinker
1xTimetwister
1xWheel of Fortune
1xWindfall
4xThirst For Knowledge
1xAncestral Recall

Manabase (26)
4xMishra's Workshop
4xAncient Tomb
1xTolarian Academy
4xVolcanic Island
4xShivan Reef
7xSoLoMoxen
2xMana Vault/Crypt

Here are my 3 major contentions that break the mold; Force of Will, Brainstorm and Gilded Lotus do not cut it in 7/10.

Force of Will: After playing with Force of Will, I've simply come to the conclusion that it's holding 7/10 back. While FoW may prevent you from losing games outright vs Combo, that isn't much of a justification for its inclusion. Draw 7 and Dragon seem almost entirely unconcerned with 7/10's FoW. Both decks lose very little steam unless 7/10 can follow up with Chalice, and the odds of holding a FoW+Blue Card+Chalice vs Combo are slim. What's worse, Dragon and Draw 7 both play with FoW as well, on an equal or greater U count. Instead of FoW, 7/10 can MD Trinisphere and still combat Combo. Whether this improves the Combo match up or not may be subjective, however a resolved Trinisphere is game vs Draw 7 and Belcher. The presence of Trinisphere strengthens your ability to Mulligan vs Combo, and simultaneously forces Draw 7 to take more aggressive Mulligans for FoW when 7/10 is playing.

The more relavant issue for Trinisphere is its strenth vs Aggro and Control. Vs U/g Madness and Fish, FoW is relatively unimpressive IMO. Trinisphere is often a game winning play vs both decks, buying enough time to resolve Chalice (2) or other key threats like Worker and Welder. Trinisphere is also extremely detrimental to FCG, for obvious reasons. Against Control, Trinisphere usually catches FoW, or it will generate significant Tempo in your favor. Having an additional 4 "Must Counters" is significantly better than using FoW vs Control, because Trinisphere protects Chalice from being countered more than FoW.

Brainstorm: This card was inlcuded for the express purpose of supporting FoW, and it's otherwise unjustified IMO. I find the card to be more detrimental than good, because it exposes Colored Sources to Strips too early in the game and takes the place of real business. Brainstorm is also a significant loss in Tempo in itself and conflicts with Trinisphere, Chalice and Welder as early game plays. On top of that, it significantly weakens Chalice (1) vs Control.

Gilded Lotus: This card simply does not generate enough Mana to effectively abuse Sundering Titan. While being able to generate Colored Mana is a plus, it's not as imperative as resolving Titan. Gilded Lotus has a number of problems, the most significant of which is forcing Mulligans in hands with an abundance of Colored Sources and Artifacts. The 5cc is simply too high to resolve the Gilded Lotus. When I began to replace the Gilded Lotus with Metalworker in these hands, they became significantly more viable. The 2nd major issue with Gilded Lotus is it simply doesn't support the Titan's CC. On average a Metalworker will produce 4-6 Mana in a single turn, a full Turn earlier than Gilded Lotus. Despite being susceptible to Creature Removal and unable to produce Colored Mana, the Worker is the appropriate accelerator in 7/10.

Notes,

I believe that the majority of the MD is obvious, however I'll go over a few of the more important choices.

Duplicant: Do not cut Duplicant under any circumstances, he is an extremely important Tempo swing vs several very important decks. His ability to eliminate Dryad and Tog can be pivotal in the GAT and HULK match ups. Vs Germbus, Duplicant will often "Undue" the work of a Mana Drain by eliminating an Exalted Angel. An early Angel is incredibly annoying, because it will easily outrace a Titan at any stage of the game. Duplicant is also a rather situational lock vs Dragon, but it "can" be game breaking.

Time Walk: This card really sucks in 7/10. It exposes Colored Mana Sources too early, and it can often cause you to misevaluate Mulligans. Time Walk has extremely poor synergy with Chalice (2), and resolving a Chalice vs Control is one of your key concerns. A Time Walked Titan is the ultimate in Win More vs most decks anyway. IMO, the Walk is simply one of those superfilous Blue Cards added to support FoW, like Brainstorm.

The Wild Card: As of yet, I have not found the appropriate card for this MD Slot. I have tried; Mindslaver, Platinum Angel, Darksteel Colossus, Pyrite Spellbomb, Fact or Fiction, Time Walk, Mystical Tutor and Yawgmoth's Will*. None of them really stood out to me. If you have any suggestions for this slot, feel free to speak up. Right now, I'm using Pyrite Spellbomb because it cycles at worst.

Manabase: I'm relatively happy with my Manabase at the moment. 4 Ancient Tombs have proven their salt beyond a Shadow of a Doubt in my mind. The Volcanics/Reefs vs City/Void is a bit of a toss up. I think both set ups have their advantages, but Volcanics/Reefs seem to be more stable. Resolving Sundering Titan and losing your Volcanic is rarely an issue for me, and Reefs are really important for reducing the amount of Pain from your lands. City of Brass simply seems to be a serious boon vs Fish, and is only really useful if you plan to support Yawgmoth's Will in your Wild Card Slot or additional SB options. Glimmervoid is much more stable than most people give it credit for, and by using Trinisphere instead of FoW it seems to be a very solid Land choice. Right now, I'm deliberating on using a Glimmervoid/Reef set up. It may be the most promising, and it still retains the possibility of utilizing Yawg Win.

Sideboard: This is still speculative right now, but Blood Moons are the most definate inclusion. After that, I like to stock up on Rack and Ruin, Red Elemental Blast, Gorilla Shaman and depending on the metagame Tormod's Crypt. I also like BEBs and Mindslavers for the Shop Mirror.

So, thoughts?

[AngryPheldagrif]

Have the Metalworkers been pulling their weight for you? In testing I never like them, they're bait and they tie up your first turn drop with Workshop. The only stuff they really power out (since you're not running Gilded Lotus) are the Titans, and I've always preferred to just Weld them in.

-Dan

[Moxlotus]

Poor showing?  You do know that 7/10 decks took 9th and 10th place.  Also with 4 Titans you will usually see then when you don't want to, most play 3 for the same reason Tog plays 3 togs.

[Dante]

I think MD Karn needs to go.  There are only 5 useful animate targets (4 Trinisphere and 1 Memory Jar) and animating the Trinispheres and attacking with them will turn them off, and he can be blocked forever by a fish/shaman/soldier token/etc.  If you want to kill Moxes, go shaman; if you want another fat body....you've got a lot of choices that can't be stopped by any creature on the board.

[wuaffiliate]

That is a terrible list.

Metalworker just is not needed, you should be concentrating on casting 3sphere or guilded early, 7/10 runs alot more coloured spells than MUD did, you metal worker will not be as broken. Coloured mana from lotti is more important.

We have tried duplicant, and found it less than optimal, i would much rather have an angel. ANGEL is superior to duplicant. It serves the same purpose, but it actually helps delay the game vs combo and aggro long enough for you to win.

Karn is however HAWT, and i've been testing him somewhat. He is really strong in alot of situations.

I am not a fan of the draw7's at all. I would much rather run tutors to find tinker than let my opponent draw 7 card. Giving your opponents options in a deck that is meant to remove options from them is just wrong. Of course jar is an exception.

I'm not a fan of FoW, its hard to support, it makes you run bad cards like brainstorm in this deck. (BS is terrible in this deck). I actually agree with your FoW assesment.

Lotti are amazing in this deck, they not only let you hardcast all of you spells in the deck. They let you consistantly pump out your high casting cost threats. not to mention they are crazy good with karn.

Walk is bad? how in gods name do you justify this? It speeds the deck up by one turn. You hit for ALOT, it is as important in 7/10 as it is in Tog, it serves the same purpose! So Timewalk into a berzerked tog is a win more? ill take walk into winning with titan before my opponent can deal with it thanks.

Also i suggest trying wasteland, this is my current list with input from my team and diceman.

4 Goblin Welder
3 Sundering Titan
3 Triskelion
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Platinum Angel

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
4 Thirst for Knowledge

3 Gilded Lotus
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Volcanic Island
3 Shivan Reef
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Tolarian Academy

SB:  4 Blood Moon
SB:  3 Crucible of Worlds
SB:  4 Rack and Ruin
SB:  4 Tormod's Crypt

EDIT: added updated list.

[Plognark]

Other than mild irritation that my mental musing on 7/10 seem to be shared by more than myself, it seems solid.

I had toyed around with the idea of trying to use intuition/thirst to get the heavy cards in the graveyard fast and weld them in, almost TnT style, but that setup has proven a bit fragile, and too dependant on the welders, which are easily bumped off by ping, fire/ice, or trikes. It wasn't as explosive as the metalworkers.

Metalworkers + welders seems better to me; either one spells impending doom, and are must kill/counter cards. Also, metalworker can stop a first turn 1/1 curious critter from fish (sometimes) or a scary goblin lackey from FCG. This alone has made me glad to have them when I ran stax.

One thing i've noticed people forget with the metalworker is that you should always try to wait until you can throw out a heavy draw card, like a wheel of fortune, and then pop him when you get a fist full of artifacts (memory jar, more titans, etc.) Even a single artifact in hand can be good enough with metalworker to power out some higher cost spells. I think the mana they produce can justify another draw/dig card like fact or fiction.

I don't know that this deck need 4 titans....3 seems like a more optimal number to me, with all that heavy draw. It could free up more utility in the build. I'd like to see 2 crucibles + a set of strips to replace the ancient tombs, to take shots at non-basic/non-dual lands, but that may be a bit on the slow side, and more reliant on an opening hand with workshop. I tend to play cautious, so maybe it's just me.

[BreathWeapon]

You can't rely on Welding Titans in, Strip Mines and Mana Denial are in Vogue right now. Keeping a Colored Source on the board is damn hard, because a smart Keeper player is going to ignore your shops altogether and gun for the Volcanic Island. Workers really are better than I thought, because they can bait FoW and draw out Removal to slip in a Welder under the radar. Plus, they just let you go Broken faster than Gilded Lotus can.

Also, I don't always play Worker first. I think Trinisphere and Chalice for 2 are strong considerations for your 1st Turn plays vs a lot of decks, Fish being the primary example. In general, the decision is less difficult if I am on the Draw.

Edit: How many of those replies were simo?

@Wu, I don't think you have ever replied to one of my decks with out stating it is terrible, so I will take that as a compliment. I don't consider Platinum Angel and Duplicant to be exclusive to each other, that's what my Wild Card slot is for. However, I very strongly recommend you have an answer vs Exalted Angel, because I have been rolled by her a lot. Keepers Angel is > Your Angel, because Removal makes Platinum's ability TEH SUCK.

I think the Workers deserve more credit than your giving them, despite having 5-7 more Non-Artifact cards than wMUD they still hold strong. In general, they produce 4-6 Mana consistantly if you play your cards right, and are much more consistant than the Loti at producing FAT. They also decrease Mulligans considerably, atleast from what I can gather via Playtest.

I'm relatively happey with the Draw 7's as it is. Time Walk has consistantly been a dead card for me in PT. I can remember cursing it more times than loving it. It also had several other draw backs that I mentioned above.

@Can't see your names because of the Edit Window.

Yes, I know the deck placed in the 9-10 spots at SCG. I was basing my judgement on what was in the T8.

4MD Titans just feels right to me. It increases the possible speed of me being able to Welder them into play, or drop one 2nd Turn with a Worker. I have learned to live with the occasional cluster of Titans.

MD Karn has proven his salt, IMO. That 4/4 body has won me many a random game, and he is much more difficult to dispose of for you opponent. I'm trying to seriously refrain from my 1cc spots, because Chalice (1) is a big play vs Keeper. I think he has greater synergy, so he gets the "Nod" over Shaman.

[Dante]

Karn is however HAWT, and i've been testing him somewhat. He is really strong in alot of situations.

I am not a fan of the draw7's at all. I would much rather run tutors to find tinker than let my opponent draw 7 card. Giving your opponents options in a deck that is meant to remove options from them is just wrong. Of course jar is an exception.

but if you weren't running the Gilded, would Karn still be as "HAWT"?

[Plognark]

Ok, i'm not actually double posting here....BreathWeapon was respodning at the same time as myself, so this is in response to his response.

Also i suggest trying wasteland, this is my current list with input from my team and diceman.

4 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
3 Sundering Titan
3 Triskelion
1 Platinum Angel

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
4 Thirst for Knowledge

3 Gilded Lotus
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Volcanic Island
3 Shivan Reef
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Tolarian Academy

SB: 4 Blood Moon
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 Rack and Ruin
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt

Eegads you don't like weenies do you?  

I actually agree that this is a stronger build than the one first presented, but only due to a more robust mana base/weenie hate from trikes. I still think cutting the lotti for metalworkers and adding a few more draw-7 style cards is viable, just not sure which is the stronger option.

I agree that 2 ancient tomb is ideal. 4 is just suicidal. Out of curiosity, why not cut the volcanics, ignore the negatives of the titan altogether, and run something like city of brass/glimmervoid? It would allow for a bit of black in a demonic tutor and a vampiric tutor. Maybe even a yawg's will, although it seems superfluous to me.

[wuaffiliate]

but if you weren't running the Gilded, would Karn still be as "HAWT"?

I run Lotti, if i didnt run Lotti i would be playing a bad deck. Never cut Lotti from this deck, they work much better than workers. Yes workers were tested MONTHS ago, and sucked balls.

Weapon you are missing the point of the deck completely. It isnt about being broken off a metal worker. It's about disrupting your opponent so they just cant recover. Early trinisphere is just superior to Metal Worker, and if you can cast the Lotti, you can use it right away, you dont need to waste a turn without disrupting your opponent.

No i wouldn't drop Volcanics because there is no need to, i dont care if one of my land gets hit by titan, im not going to be taking 7 a turn. I dont see any reason to add black, using wasteland is just superior to adding another colour.

Also im running 3x SB CoW in place of those REBs, with wastes and Karn the crusibles are extremely strong in those tough hate matchups.

EDIT:

Trisk isnt for weenies, he deals with many of the best creatures in the game, hes an extremely strong kill condition also, 6 for a 4/4 that can deal 3 direct. So strong, especially with welders, i often kill more with trisk than with titan.

[goober]

Up there are uberbroken plays this deck can do is first turn Trinisphere off a Gilded Lotus, followed by hardcast Titan turn 2.  Gilded Lotus just makes he deck able to do far more stuff early, so it wins fster and better.

I ran Serum Visions over BS for a while, to help support the FoW.  I actually thought it worked pretty well.  I just feel naked using a deck without FoW in it.  It also helps you avoid walking into HUGE Drains which kill this deck.  Second turn Titan->Drain is usually gg.

I am not completely sure about it, but I am goign to test it out some without the FoW and see how it goes.

[BreathWeapon]

I Edited in some comments above, people are posting faster than I can reply.

@Wu, I am not foregoing disruption for Workers. I play the Worker in almost the same Order I play Loti vs Control, but faster. This is a relatively non issue for me. However, vs Fish and various other decks, I can play the Worker first. I can't tell you how huge this "option" can be. So in short, I'm not playing Workers in the conventional sense of wMUD. I'm rather conservative with them, but I will take busted plays when I can get them. Also, the speed of Loti isn't as fast as it would first appear, despite being able to resolve the turn it comes into play. Vs Fish and 4cc, you can have extreme issues with resolving them. Metalworker is much easier to resolve, and can often race Grim Lavamancers activation if need be. This is also the reason I use Tombs instead of Strips. I'd rather have a working manabase to develop my board and destroy all of the opponent's lands in one move. Strips often seem rather superfilous except vs 4cc, and I really think they are a serious mistake vs Fish.

@Other People,

Some of the questions your asking were touched upon in the article, double back.

@Goober, Gilded Lotus is not faster than Metalworker. It's more important to look at the hands where Gilded Lotus sucks, and replace them with Metalworker than to do the opposite. Metalworker is faster under the face of pressure, and that is what is more important IMO. Also, at almost any given time Metal Worker has greater potentiality than the Loti in terms of pure Mana Generation. With any given hand, always consider what will happen with FoW/Strip, and you'll find that the Worker tends to be better. All you have to do is be more prudent with your Colored Mana Sources, and NEVER drop them with out the intention of resolving a Welder or Draw Spell immediately.

[TrixR4Kidz]

That is the strangest 7/10 list i've seen, It doesn't really even qualify as being 7/10, Drop the workers first off, you don't actually need them, karn isn't needed, you aren't playing prison, it seems like your trying to mix prison with seven ten, I don't know if thats what you want?

I'm creating my own version of 7/10, that via testing has done extremely well, and i'll be posting a decklist after I take it to the pittsfield tourny this saturday and win a mox. Thanks

[wuaffiliate]

Wastes are deffinately a must. They promote what the deck is suposed to be doing, disrupting, then winning with large fat. Wasteland/Stripmine are the best disruptive card printed. They make any workshop match a horror for the opponent, because waste+CoW is such a furious assault on their mana base.
 

I'd rather have a working manabase to develop my board and destroy all of the opponent's lands in one move.

Playing with my mana base shows it works, it does what the deck is suposed to.

How can you justify wastes being a mistake vs fish?

[TheWhiteDragon]

Not to talk too much on the deck, but it needs a MD Karn IMO.  the mox munching is huge, the 0/8 wall helps against aggro, and the 4/4 beats is better than 1/1.  You can't fire/ice karn, but you can weld him into play.  I think he's solid.
Secondly, I think metalworker would be a good inclusion over gilded if the colored spells like thirst were to leave.  I personally think Intuition could be more broken than thirst (or maybe thirsts 5-8) by tutoring for a three of and putting titans/trisks in the dirt.  It also gets your prison pieces for you and puts strips in the dirt to recur with COW.
You guys that say metalworker ties up your first turn play are playing wrong.  Trini first, then metalworker turn 2.  By turn 3, you will be able to cast anything big before they even get a 3rd land, and if it's a titan, they will usually drop back to 0 lands and lose in 3 turns.
Colossus, Duplicant, and Trisk are all needed.  The big problem I see with the deck is lack of consistent quick phat.  If the first titan is plowed, it is a while to thirst up another.  If welder is plowed, you need 8 mana.  I think quicker fat makes workshop/aggro decks work.

[TrixR4Kidz]

I think metalworker would be a good inclusion over gilded if the colored spells like thirst were to leave

Yeah, so thats a good Idea, play 7/10, BUT first cut the best spell in the deck? Thirst isn't replaceable, especially not by a metalworker.....

Trini first, then metalworker turn 2. By turn 3

Ok so you could sit around and wait for a hand like that, of course assuming you have worker, and trini, and workshop all in your hand, Oh yea, and if they don't waste your workshop on their turn.  Why would you even bother with worker, he's not needed at all.  The deck runs smoothly enough without worker.  Have you ever even seen another 7/10 list?

but it needs a MD Karn IMO. the mox munching is huge, the 0/8 wall helps against aggro, and the 4/4 beats is better than 1/1. You can't fire/ice karn, but you can weld him into play

So, you'd rather pay 5 mana on an artifact, to kill moxen? instead of just paying 1, cuz he can be fire/iced? I think welders can be killed by that too, why don't you just cut them, Also, it runs 1 karn, so you can play Karn and eat their moxen late game when it doesn't matter, ya know instead of just using shaman.  I also don't remember karn being able to eat sol rings and other fun stuff.  Your worried about getting hit by creatures when the deck runs a creature with the body of 10 toughness? Karns 0/8 blocking shouldn't be a plus in this deck

[Moxlotus]

If you want to cut colored spells than you would be playing a different deck.  TFK is the deck's draw engine and way to abuse the Titan and Welder in the first place.  Never ever talk about removing them from a 7/10 list.  Play monobrown prison, but don't call it 7/10.  Gilded helps play the colored spells which help out a ton when your mana base doesn't always give you the correct colored mana.  Gilded is huge.

[wuaffiliate]

Karn is good.

I suggest people play the deck extensively before posting at all, this is useless, its people who have zero experience posting junk.

[TrixR4Kidz]

this is useless, its people who have zero experience posting junk.

Whoa whoa, I have playtested the deck quite a bit, infact...I topped it with it at a recent power tourny, and did pretty well, I know how the deck works.

....and by "karn is good" you mean "karn is good in stax, not 7/10" right?

[wuaffiliate]

No, i'm saying Karn is good in 7/10. I like attacking with 5/5 lotti and 3/3 3spheres/CoWs. He is a solid threat, he also disrupts the opponent's acceleration.

I was also talking to the random idiots posting "What i think you should do to the deck" posts, it was not directed toward you.

[goober]

Gilded Lotus is faster, it doesn't have summoning sickness.  It also isn't conditional.  7/10 is a very spell based Workshop deck.  Usually the Worker will net you 2 or 4 mana, which is equivalent to Lotus, but colorless.  Also the Lotus is slightly less vulnerable to destruction (StP).  Combine that with topdeck mode benefits of Lotus.  The deck needs Blue and Red mana, while it has colorless up the wazoo from Wastes, Tombs, Workshops, and off color Moxen.  You want to colored mana, a lot.  Then you add Karn and make it a beatstick as well.

[TrixR4Kidz]

Yea, but the point is you don't need to use karn to make a gilded lotus attack, your running a 7/10 land destroyer, I think you can win with just him, karn being in there is just taking up a valuable spot in the mainboard....

[BreathWeapon]

Lets calm down with the personal attacks, there is no reason to jump all over each other.

Here is my argument for why I don't currently use Wastelands. In some scenarios, it can work to Fish's or Keeper's advantage to weaken your Manabase and lose a Land Drop. I find it's more important to ramp up the manabase and recover Tempo by resolving the Sundering Titan . By Wastelanding your opponent, your effectively removing a card that you would have destroyed anyway, once Titan resolves. While Wasteland keeps the game in its early stages, it doesn't advance your game plan and it costs you more momentum than your opponent (Your destroying a Land they tapped to resolve Brainstorm etc). If I was playing standard FAT, Jugs and Su-Chi, I would be all about Wastelands, because I'm buying time for my threats to bring the game home. However, I feel 7/10 simply can't take advantage of Wastes fast enough to make them relevant, consistantly. You aren't doing anything, other than hoping you steal the game with Wastes under Trinisphere. I don't believe you should be "Disrupting" your opponent, but "Stalling" so you can buy enough time to resolve your threats. This isn't a deck that resolves its threats first, and then follows with Disruption. 7/10 works in reverse order to Stacker or TnT etc.

Ancient Tombs are also just too good not to abuse. They almost guarantee that I can resolve Trinisphere and Chalice (2) on the 1st Turn in every game, the same with Metalworker. They effectively make 7/10 less Top Deck dependant, and provide a significant Mana Boost when your trumped by a Gorilla Shaman and opposing Wastelands for your Shops.

I am also not a big fan of Crucible right now, because Blood Moon tends to be better in its slot vs Fish and Keeper.

@Goober, I don't want to repeat myself, but the Workers are faster. They can resolve on Turns 1 and 2 with greater consistancey than Loti. On top of that, they can resolve much easier in the face of a Gorilla Shaman or a Wasteland. While it's true that Loti aren't affected by Summoning Sickness, the only card your going to resolve on that turn is a Thirst or Draw 7 (That's if you have one in hand). After summoning sickness, the Worker will produce roughly 1-3 more mana on average to hopefuly compensate for any loss in Tempo. I don't know how else to get this across, other than to suggest you Gold Fish vs Keeper.

@TrixR4kids, I think you need to re-evaluate Karn man. A 5 Turn Clock vs Control, Gorilla Shaman, 0-8 Wall vs Aggro and additional beats provider is not to be trifled with. I don't even use Gilded Lotus, and I'm always happy to see Karn.

@TheWhiteDragon, cutting thirst is a no go. If my Worker is Plowed, than my Welder is more likely to resolve and set up Thirst recursion. In general, If Trinisphere resolves 1st turn Plow isn't fast enough. I also make good use of Chalice (1) vs Keeper. Karn, Trisk, Duplicant and Platinum Angel tend to make solid supporting FAT vs Control.

[wuaffiliate]

The deck needs 7-8 threats, karn is a solid threat because once he hits, he raises your threat count a whole hell of alot. You simply cannot rely on Titan to win every single game, you need support threats.

Karn speeds up your kill by quite a margine, say you have a lotus and a 3sphere out, you tinker away your mox for a Karn, swing for 8, next turn swing for 12.

Titan is important, but he is not your only tool.

EDIT:

You just try crusible in those matches and you tell me that they are better than bloodmoon.

Also the deck runs 3 7/10s, wastelands deal with the following and comming of the 7/10.

Also if you would actually play the deck, you will realise that you dont see the 7/10 every game. Wasteland/Stripmine are way too strong to pass up, They further the strategy of the deck by disrupting(yes this is also called stalling).

Do you honestly think that a deck that runs all possible acceleration cannot be fast enough to abuse strips?

You simply have no grasp on this deck, just reading your decklist and comments shows that in spades.

[TrixR4Kidz]

Yea you don't need titan to win, and yea he's not the only win condition, I never said he's the only win condition, but until I see karn in top 8 7/10 decks then I don't think there is much of an arguement, I think titan, trisk, duplicant, memnarch, plat angel are enough threats where you don't need mr. stax to come in and be a pointless wall instead of a real wall (titan) to block and actually kill creatures.  I'm not gonna even argue karn being good in the deck, he's not used in any respectable 7/10 builds, thats that.

[wuaffiliate]

Yea you don't need titan to win, and yea he's not the only win condition, I never said he's the only win condition, but until I see karn in top 8 7/10 decks then I don't think there is much of an arguement, I think titan, trisk, duplicant, memnarch, plat angel are enough threats where you don't need mr. stax to come in and be a pointless wall instead of a real wall (titan) to block and actually kill creatures. I'm not gonna even argue karn being good in the deck, he's not used in any respectable 7/10 builds, thats that.

You are missing the point, Karn speeds the kill up, it doesn't matter if it hasnt't been seen in a top8 yet, all top8 7/10 lists are OUT OF DATE anyhow which has been pointed out by TripleS and myself many times.

Using only tourney winning creature bases is just bad deck building, if you want to net deck, you read the forums and shut up. If you want to find new additions that can improve a deck you post and test. If you dont want to put time into testing your many options that is your problem.

Because it has yet to be in a tourney winning decklist is not any sort of logical argument, you just made yourself look really stupid. That is the worst argument i've ever read against the inclusion of a card.

I can tell this discussion is going nowhere, ill bow out and let those who dont test and have little experience with the archtype continue their "stimulating" conversation.

[Klep]

Yea you don't need titan to win, and yea he's not the only win condition, I never said he's the only win condition, but until I see karn in top 8 7/10 decks then I don't think there is much of an arguement,

If your philosophy that an idea isn't good until it top 8's were true, then there would never be any development, ever, because people would only have bad ideas.

[Wollblad]

By Wastelanding your opponent, your effectively removing a card that you would have destroyed anyway, once Titan resolves.

But Fish, Landstill and Stax all have a ton of lands which Sundering Titan cannot touch. Just imagine playing the mirror match were one player has Wastelands and the other has not. At least I would put my money on the Wasteland guy. Wasteland is also a way of dodging Mana Drain. You cannot always get the perfect start where you begin, get turn 1 Trinisphere, and a Titan at latest turn 3. If you manage to cast turn two Lotus, you can as well disrupt your opponent with Wastelands until you find a Titan instead of playing another land you won't need. I can see very few reasons not to include Wastelands.

[Triple_S]

These decks are terribly out of date compared to the recent technology unveiled at SCG.  While no straightahead 7/10 deck did top 8 (Short Bus had 2 members with our build get screwed on tie breaks and finished in 9th and 10th places going 6-1-1) the new deck is much more consistent, powerful, and gamebreaking than the lists detailed here.  I know SCG published the t8 decklists, I don't know if the entire field will be published or not.  If they are published, take a gander at what Short Bus ran and go from there.  I'm not tooting our own horn, but suffice to say we have probably done a LOT more testing with the builds than you have.

[Plognark]

These decks are terribly out of date compared to the recent technology unveiled at SCG. While no straightahead 7/10 deck did top 8 (Short Bus had 2 members with our build get screwed on tie breaks and finished in 9th and 10th places going 6-1-1) the new deck is much more consistent, powerful, and gamebreaking than the lists detailed here. I know SCG published the t8 decklists, I don't know if the entire field will be published or not. If they are published, take a gander at what Short Bus ran and go from there. I'm not tooting our own horn, but suffice to say we have probably done a LOT more testing with the builds than you have.

Can you post at least a rough decklist? I can't access starcity from work....it's blocked