TheManaDrain.com
October 05, 2025, 03:14:53 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
Author Topic: UR Phid, playing bad cards to make them good...  (Read 9917 times)
Mendence
Basic User
**
Posts: 8


Googleboots
View Profile
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2004, 01:19:34 pm »

Is there a reason you keep referencing everything to Tog, even though it is having a "falling out" of the format?
Logged

Team n00b bus - Kicking ass at the Special Olympics since 2004

UCB - Champs of the Perverted Picnic Game
WildWillieWonderboy
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 192


Official Tourney GPS

wilwonderboy
View Profile
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2004, 01:33:34 pm »

Tog isn't falling out of the format, as soon as people modify their decks to play against fish, Tog will come back, as balance will be restored.

I would like to see a "metagame counter" slot in the board for annul or stifle.
I would love stifle on a stick vs. combo and I would even go so far as to say it deserves a place in the main simply because of its amazing versatility. Stifle is like the free-safety of control (that's right, random football reference by stupid American) because it can buy you an extra turn to find a permanent solution to whatever is troubling you, by stopping fetch and strip effects and delaying problematic creature abilities until fire/ice comes up.
Also, given the 4 drains, I'd like an X-or-high cc spell in the board, possibly FoF with an extra wish in the main or even some kind of dwarven catapult.
Logged

Founder of Team Cleandeck: Not smelling like ass since ever.

Team Meandeck: Vintage Rock Steady Crew

Posthumous Commonwealth of The Paragons: Power up our scuzzy drives while we chat on CompuServe about how awesome Keeper is.
Pest
Basic User
**
Posts: 44


Doomtrain01010
View Profile Email
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2004, 11:11:19 am »

ok guys, sorry I've been out lately, but I had to march 3 parades and play in a concert as well yesterday...non-stop Tuba playing from 8:00 am to 10:30 pm, not my idea of a good time.

Anyways, back on topic, I love the idea of Scepter w/ Fire/Ice, but I don't think it would be optimal to play in Phid's stead. Playing both would be amazing and I actually really want to fit in both. Playing a draw engine with Phid AND the Scepter/Fire/Ice would be insane. I really like the list Thug posted. My problem with it is, I'd rather be running a 3rd Wish over a 3rd Blood Moon. 2 Is enough, with 12 counters and what looks to be a good draw engine, getting a blood moon on the table is not a difficult task. Also, I would probably go -1 Scepter, +1 Phid and -1 Fire/Ice and +1 Wish. Add the 4th Fire/Ice in the SB so you can wish for it if you need it.

Quote
So the Scepter v. Phid debate is one that points to heart of the problem with this deck. Both are weak draw engines in comparison to AK/Intuition. But if you put that draw engine into this deck then you may as well go all the way and just play Tog. So the question really is this: Is there enough of a reason to play this deck over Tog and if so which card, Scepter or Phid best exploits this decks advantages?


I would go with Scepter being the better draw engine, but it would be better to play both Phid and Scepter IMO. If they get a Null Rod out and you can't deal with it (no topdeck love) then you no longer have a draw engine. The same goes for if you havew a Phid out and they play lots of removal, your Draw Engine is gone. With both it's harder to stop. Another comment I'd like to make is that the reason to play this over Tog is simple, Blood Moon. Blood Moon is so amazing in the current metagame and puts almost any opponent into a very uncomfortable position. Also, a simple Swords to Plowshares or Smother can ruin your whole win condition, it takes more than that to stop a Morphling. I do agree with Mendence with the comment about you making references to Tog. It is sort of falling out of the format, and is still kind of easy to stop. I don't find this deck nearly as similar to Tog as you do for some reason, especially considering it is 2 colors.
Logged

Team UCB-sweeping Paragons with Sui since 2004
Thug
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 305



View Profile Email
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2004, 11:41:47 am »

Quote
Anyways, back on topic, I love the idea of Scepter w/ Fire/Ice, but I don't think it would be optimal to play in Phid's stead. Playing both would be amazing and I actually really want to fit in both. Playing a draw engine with Phid AND the Scepter/Fire/Ice would be insane. I really like the list Thug posted. My problem with it is, I'd rather be running a 3rd Wish over a 3rd Blood Moon. 2 Is enough, with 12 counters and what looks to be a good draw engine, getting a blood moon on the table is not a difficult task. Also, I would probably go -1 Scepter, +1 Phid and -1 Fire/Ice and +1 Wish. Add the 4th Fire/Ice in the SB so you can wish for it if you need it.


It's has been tried before and proved really good, here are some links,
this is were I saw the deck first in this incarnation: click
and this was my results playing it myself: click (the list is missing 3 Ophidians miandeck)

The reason I rather play the 4th Fire/Ice maindeck is because you really want one when you got a scepter. And they are never dead, and actually very good in some matchups. I only played 3 at that time, but right now I would defenitly go with 4 maindeck.

The sideboard should probably have a single Lightning Bolt if your looking for the Fire Component.

I'd also like to find room for one more Phid, but I really don't want less than 4 scepters, you just want to drop one asap. Right now I just added the third Phid as card 61.
Same counts for Blood Moon, you don't want to see one pop up from time to time. 'cause then you could just be playing more colours instead of staying two colours for Blood Moon. IMO you go Blood Moon all the way, or you drop it.

I know I mentiond Boomerang to be imprinted. But I also remember the Capsize served me very good, annoying a Psychatog big time.

Good luck with the deck,

Koen
Logged

-Most People Believe Magic Is Only A Trick. Why Change Their Minds??-  (Sleight Of Hand)
Jacob Orlove
Official Time Traveller of TMD
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 8074


When am I?


View Profile Email
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2004, 11:53:41 am »

Quote from: Thug
The sideboard should probably have a single Lightning Bolt if your looking for the Fire Component.

Actually, [card]Magma Jet[/card] would be a better call if you want more burn to put on a scepter. In fact, Magma Jet might be worth running more than one copy of, because Scrying on a scepter is really strong, and you can still kill creatures/damage your opponent. In a redundant deck like this, I think it makes a better scepter target than Impulse does.
Logged

Team Meandeck: O Lord,
Guard my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile.
To those who slander me, let me give no heed.
May my soul be humble and forgiving to all.
Mixing Mike
Guest
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2004, 11:54:48 am »

Have you ever read this?

So tell me why you're playing the sticks?


<MixingMike> So, tell me the reasons why somebody should play this over any other control deck in the meta.
<Pest> It plays Blood Moon, has a nice, solid manabase, it's not hated out, Morphling (in this deck) is awsome.  The deck altogether is just tight.  I would personally only play this deck in a meta that has lots of Fish, 4cc and GAT in it.


Control Slaver has access to Blood Moon.  Though it cannot rival the manabase of U/R Phid, it's draw engine certainly makes up for it.  Morphling keels up and dies in the face of an army of Pentavite tokens.  Slaver can also take over the late game by simply activating a Mindslaver, and kill your own Morphling.  I see no reason why this is better than Slaver.

4c Control has the lucky 'I win' hand of a quick Angel beatdown, and the late-game supremacy from Mind Twist, Balance, and now recently Crucible + Strip Mine/Wasteland.  I also hear that the investment of Scryings is better than that of Ophidian, becasue the buyout is immidiate.  Espically considering it's an instant, and watching your opponent tap out to play an Ophidian, when you just draw 4+ cards, then proceed to remove the thing for a single, measly white mana.  Again, why is it better?

Anything that has Togs in it can just go beatdown so quickly it's not even funny.  I think back to the times when 4-Gush GAT ruled above all.  Every U/R Phid player said they never lost to it, and the same with GAT players.  Now I ask you which deck was too powerful, and needed a restriction.  

Also, Dryads were first introduced in order to beat decks like U/R Phid, BBS, and the 'Kee-per' decks of the time.  Fish decks just play as if you're not even there, because their mana curve, manlands, and Standstills all overcome your removal, and draw engine.

It just doesn't make any sense to me.
Logged
Ric_Flair
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 589


TSculimbrene
View Profile Email
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2004, 12:21:00 pm »

I have to agree with Mike, right now there are few good reasons to run this deck.  Fish would SLAUGHTER this deck badly.  Null Rod plus small creatures equals really bad.  Blood Moon is not the threat it used to be, especially with aggro-workshop and other artifact decks doing well.  It is good, but probably not good enough to justify running this deck.
Logged

In order to be the MAN...WOOOO!....you have to beat the MAN....WOOOOO!

Co-founder of the movement to elect Zherbus to the next Magic Invitational.  VOTE ZHERBUS!

Power Count: 4/9
BreathWeapon
Basic User
**
Posts: 1554


View Profile
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2004, 12:59:40 pm »

Why you play U/r Scepter? It has 12 Counter Spells, just as many I WIN games as Angel when Fire is Imprinted vs Aggro and doesn't get PWNed by Gorilla Shaman like Control Slaver. It's pretty nice when you don't need WW to hold off Aggro  Wink

I can't emphasize the Power of Mana Leak enough vs Prison decks right now, they have too many threats for just FoW and Drain.

Also, unless you have played the deck vs Fish, I wouldn't comment on how awful the match up is. FoW and Rod sound scary, but if you play your cards right it isn't a bad match up. If I was sitting across Mark Perez, I'd worry. If I was sitting across some schlub with Faerie Conclaves, not so much.
Logged
Thug
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 305



View Profile Email
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2004, 01:01:10 pm »

Quote
I have to agree with Mike, right now there are few good reasons to run this deck. Fish would SLAUGHTER this deck badly. Null Rod plus small creatures equals really bad. Blood Moon is not the threat it used to be, especially with aggro-workshop and other artifact decks doing well. It is good, but probably not good enough to justify running this deck


Sorry, but this is totally untrue. I doubt you actually ever tested the matchups versus Fish. 4 Fire/Ice is a lot for them to handle. Blood Moon shuts down 2 important strategies of the deck. And they cannot remove a resolved Scepter, so it really isn't that bad.

Aggro-Workshop is more of a threat. But with acces to red and all kinds of artifact destruction/bounce, and FtK in the sideboard it too is not as bad as it looks. I really urge you to try out the deck and then come back with conclusions.

And Blood Moon is more of a threat than it once was, people aren't prepared for it right now. Basic islands are very scarse. If the top decks right now are having trouble with Blood Moon I fail to see how it is not a threat anymore.

Quote
Control Slaver has access to Blood Moon. Though it cannot rival the manabase of U/R Phid, it's draw engine certainly makes up for it. Morphling keels up and dies in the face of an army of Pentavite tokens. Slaver can also take over the late game by simply activating a Mindslaver, and kill your own Morphling. I see no reason why this is better than Slaver.


This came to my mind too, and I actually think U/R control slaver is a very good option too right now. But I doubt it is better than Ur-Phid.

While Control Slaver has Thirst it lacks the early preasure Urphid can put on an opponent (scepter, ophid) and it also is worse at the control game. This might seem not all that important, but counter #9-12 matter a lot when facing 4c-control, cause you don't want them to resolve scryings/will/twist etc.

Also I think Welders are pretty weak right now, and Slaver lacks the tools to protect them enough. There are simply too much Lavamancers, Swords, Trikes etc running around.

Koen

EDIT: Breatheweapon typed his post while I was typing mine, they basicly come down to the same thing
Logged

-Most People Believe Magic Is Only A Trick. Why Change Their Minds??-  (Sleight Of Hand)
Mixing Mike
Guest
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2004, 01:28:03 pm »

Quote from: Thug
4 Fire/Ice is a lot for them to handle. Blood Moon shuts down 2 important strategies of the deck.


Yes, 4 Fire/Ice is just a beating for them. As is one on a stick.  Here's a quote from a friend of mine (Misemaster, has won power with Gay/R) when he was playing Gay/R during the time the stick was hot.

Quote from: Misemaster
So, by the end of the day, the only games I lost was when my opponent had Fire on a stick (found in the archived open forumn).

Then I think of this line in your post...
Quote from: Thug
And they cannot remove a resolved Scepter, so it really isn't that bad.


All that says is that Fish can't handle one of your bombs.  Can Fish handle a resolved Mind Twist, Balance, Firestorm, etc....?

The way I see your argument, I can draw this comparisson: Control Slaver has access to Blood Moon, and many builds play mutiple Fire/Ice.  Assuming that the matchup results are based on just these two cards, then both decks have an equal possibility of winning games vs. Fish.  Consider that null Rod is on the talbe, so Pentavus, Powder Keg, and Isochron's are all irrelevent.

In the end, Slaver loses to it, and quite often.  May I also mention that they have fat bodies like 4/4's and 5/5's at hand, when a Morphling isn't much better when looking at all those wennies.  I have played U/R Phid many times last summer and when Isochron's came out.  I lost many games to Fish, because you just can't hate out the deck, no matter what your decklist has prepared for them.


[EDIT]: I missed this....

Quote from: BreathWeapon
Why you play U/r Scepter? It has 12 Counter Spells, just as many I WIN games as Angel when Fire is Imprinted vs Aggro and doesn't get PWNed by Gorilla Shaman like Control Slaver.


Darksteel Citadel has answered all my Gorilla Shaman problems.  Citadels also fixed Eric Dupius (ELD) and Richard Shay's problems with him as well.
Logged
BreathWeapon
Basic User
**
Posts: 1554


View Profile
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2004, 01:52:20 pm »

That logic isn't very accurate, IMO.

Fire/Stick isn't a bomb, you have 4 of each in your deck. Comparing them to Will/Balace doesn't make a great deal of sense, tho' I'll let you get away with Firestorm.

Yes, Stix does have a better chance of victory vs Fish because it has 4 more Counters to keep Null Rod off the board. If it resolves, then you'd still be incorrect because U/r Scepter is probably using twice as many Fire/Ice plus an additional Moon. On top of that, we have Strips and you don't.

Also, your deck runs on Welders, which are simply PWNed by Mancers. Both of these decks are playing a 2 card combo vs Fish, but Stix has a clear edge IMO.
Logged
Mixing Mike
Guest
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2004, 02:00:47 pm »

A bomb is any card that can take away a matchup on it's own.  Blood Moon is a bomb, FTK is a bomb, Mindslaver is a bomb, Standstill can be a bomb, etc...
Logged
Pest
Basic User
**
Posts: 44


Doomtrain01010
View Profile Email
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2004, 02:41:04 pm »

well, I hate to interrupt this lovely war we have going here, but back on the topic of what to play in UR Phid as opposed to whether or not to play it, I have put some thought into what has been said and compiled this list:

Kill
2 Morphling
1 Shoreline Ranger
1 Gorilla Shaman

Counter
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Mana Leak

Draw/Search
2 Cunning Wish
2 Brainstorm
3 Ophidian
3 Fire/Ice
3 Isochron Scepter
1 Ancestral Recall

Broken
1 Future Sight (Sorry Thug, I just can't get over how broken this is)
1 Time Walk
3 Blood moon

Mana
7 Solomoxen
4 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
6 Island
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria

SB:
3 REB
2 BEB
2 Stifle
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Capsize
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Fire/Ice
1 Magma Jet
1 Shattering Pulse

Yes, I realize it's 61 cards, I had the 3rd Phid as my 61st card because normally Phid is one of those "it's a 4-of or it's not ran" cards. I figured perhaps running 3 won't be too bad. I really love the Scepter idea though guys, let me know what you think of this list, I really think the SB here is pretty tight.
Logged

Team UCB-sweeping Paragons with Sui since 2004
Ric_Flair
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 589


TSculimbrene
View Profile Email
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2004, 02:48:50 pm »

Are we really debating the merits of a deck that SURVIVES on fast mana and an artifact in an environment with so many Null Rods.  Blood Moon, admittedly, is good against Fish, but Null Rod is better versus this deck.  Unless something dramatically changed since the SCG tournament and the high number of Fish decks, I'd be worried.
Logged

In order to be the MAN...WOOOO!....you have to beat the MAN....WOOOOO!

Co-founder of the movement to elect Zherbus to the next Magic Invitational.  VOTE ZHERBUS!

Power Count: 4/9
Pest
Basic User
**
Posts: 44


Doomtrain01010
View Profile Email
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2004, 02:57:41 pm »

This deck not only has answers for Null Rod (especially with Wish) BUT a Null Rod does not shut down UR Phid at all. Sure, it stops the artifact mana and Scepters, but you still have brainstorms and Phids for draw AND Morphling/SHoreline Ranger that you can draw to help come back. UR Phid still has more ways to deal with Fish than Fish has to deal with UR Phid.
Logged

Team UCB-sweeping Paragons with Sui since 2004
Kerz
Nobody wants to play with me!
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 603


Kerzkid14
View Profile WWW
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2004, 03:33:00 pm »

I tried my damnest to make this deck work when scepters first came out. Its bad points are:

- Slow
-Not broken enough (no black Sad)
- Win condition worse than any other control deck's in the format
- Not enough answers, and no fast kill to make up for it (see: Tog)
- Null Rod is really good against it, when it (rod) shouldn't be amazing against any control decks
- Terrible draw engine

Need I go on? U/r has been plaged by these for all its existance. Honestly, its time to give it up.
Logged

Team Hadley: FOR FUCKING LIFE
dad
Basic User
**
Posts: 42


View Profile
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2004, 03:44:00 pm »

I used to play this deck a while back.  It won me a pearl and sapphire, so it always has a soft spot in my heart.

A few point:

1. In your meta you must decide which will probably serve you better: the scepter or the phid.  Where I am, there is a ton of artifact hate, so this is important.

2. I would cut Future Sight and Capsize, putting Cap. in the board along with Fact or Fiction. I would put 2 Cunning Wish main.  

3. Have you tested Gilded Drake in the Control Magic slot?  U1 is a good cost.  It may not be better, but it is decent.

4. I like Pyroclasm in the board, it is some good.  

5.  I agree with Ric, because you are playing the moxes (not moxen, a pet peeve of mine) Impulse seems very strong here.[/b]
Logged
Ric_Flair
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 589


TSculimbrene
View Profile Email
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2004, 03:45:56 pm »

One of the truisms of Vintage is that control is viable in the face of powerful combo and quick aggro BECAUSE of acceleration.  Null Rod hurts Tog and Keeper but both have better draw engines and kill conditions.  Thus Null Rod would and does cripple this deck.  

Also when decided how to build a deck it is CRUCIAL to decide if the deck is even worth playing.  Whether or not to play a deck is always an issue if you want to be competitive.

Quote
moxes (not moxen, a pet peeve of mine)


The correct plural is, in fact, moxen.  The word is a made up word so we have to defer to those that created the word to determine its plural, thus it is MOXEN, not MOXES.
Logged

In order to be the MAN...WOOOO!....you have to beat the MAN....WOOOOO!

Co-founder of the movement to elect Zherbus to the next Magic Invitational.  VOTE ZHERBUS!

Power Count: 4/9
Mixing Mike
Guest
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2004, 03:49:05 pm »

But now you're getting into a question of character; Spike, Timmy, or Johnny.
Logged
Khelek
Basic User
**
Posts: 1


View Profile
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2004, 07:51:22 pm »

I've always been a huge fan of this type of deck too, since back when i first started playing magic I made a bad blue red deck that basically just countered or burnt everything the other guy tried to play.  While URphid is obviously a bit more developed than that I've always thought it still has that feel to it, which is something I find fun.

This deck definitely needs the artifact mana since part of it's strategy seems to be having counter mana up as soon as possible to deal with all those threats it can't just burn out.

When you can manage to get the phid engine running, it's fun card draw, but more often than not that probably won't happen.  Factories can block (and survive fire/ice), combo can get going before you get that engine started, and most other control can deal with a phid well enough.

On another note, if the scepter angle doesn't work out well have you considered engineered explosives?  It seems like most of the time you would want to blow it (or a powder keg) for 0, 1, or 2 anyways.  Off-color moxen can make 3 reachable in some emergency situation, like a b2b or other enchantment bothering you.
Logged
Thug
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 305



View Profile Email
« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2004, 09:07:19 am »

Quote
One of the truisms of Vintage is that control is viable in the face of powerful combo and quick aggro BECAUSE of acceleration. Null Rod hurts Tog and 4cControl but both have better draw engines and kill conditions. Thus Null Rod would and does cripple this deck.


Null Rod is more of a threat to this deck than it is to 4c-control. Tog has real problems with Null Rods too, but probably slightly less than this deck. But that just a trade-off you have to make. In the games you don't see Null Rod or that you can keep it from resolving scepter will be winning your games.

And don't forget that you shouldn't be facing Null Rods more than 25% of the time, in a slighlty heatlhy environment that is. You also have to take in account the strengths or weaknesses of Scepter in other matchups. And it defenitly has a lot of strengths in other matchups.

Quote
Also when decided how to build a deck it is CRUCIAL to decide if the deck is even worth playing. Whether or not to play a deck is always an issue if you want to be competitive.


I disagree, you cannot build a perfect deck on paper, you will have to test it and adjust it. And those adjustments could just be (and often are) the reasons why the deck does have potential. If you tried to say we shouldnt put time into the deck because it never will be good enough all I can say is: build/proxy the deck and give it a few test runs.

Quote
Are we really debating the merits of a deck that SURVIVES on fast mana and an artifact in an environment with so many Null Rods. Blood Moon, admittedly, is good against Fish, but Null Rod is better versus this deck. Unless something dramatically changed since the SCG tournament and the high number of Fish decks, I'd be worried.


In the testing I did last days I have won many more games with a Blood Moon than I have lost because of a Null Rod. Blood Moon almost means game over if they don't have a decent force on the table, Null Rod just means you're changes decreased a little, but makes a game far from unwinnable.

Quote
1. In your meta you must decide which will probably serve you better: the scepter or the phid. Where I am, there is a ton of artifact hate, so this is important.


I agree that you can shift some with the numbers, but running less than 6 of these two cards in total removes too much draw power from the deck. So I would say that you can choose between 4/2, 4/3, 3/4, 2/4, 3/3, but I would go any lower than 6, nor does going higher than 7 seem like a good idea.

Quote
I have put some thought into what has been said and compiled this list:

Kill
2 Morphling
1 Shoreline Ranger
1 Gorilla Shaman

Counter
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Mana Leak

Draw/Search
2 Cunning Wish
2 Brainstorm
3 Ophidian
3 Fire/Ice
3 Isochron Scepter
1 Ancestral Recall

Broken
1 Future Sight (Sorry Thug, I just can't get over how broken this is)
1 Time Walk
3 Blood moon

Mana
7 Solomoxen
4 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
6 Island
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria


Seems like a decent list to me. I haven't tried Future Sight lately, so I will try it now (probably moving FoF to the board.). I did try the suggested Magma Jet, and found it amazing, good call Jacob.

I actually also removed the 4th Scepter to go down to 60 cards, but I regretted that choice and have put in back in.

I won very little games with Morphling (Most are won by Fire on a stick combined with Phid beatdown  Razz) so I feel comfortable running only 1. I cutted 1 ranger for an aditional land though, since I almost always ended up cycling them (right now I replaced one Ranger with a Shivan Reef)

In a lot of games LoA only was great once, but it did win me that game and I will keep it in for more testing. Especially since I feel little need for more wasteland.

The only thing I don't really like about your build is the acces to red mana. I currently run 6 Fetches, a Ranger and a Reef, and you only 4 fetches and a Ranger. Do you ever have problems with your red mana?

Quote
SB:
3 REB
2 BEB
2 Stifle
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Capsize
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Fire/Ice
1 Magma Jet
1 Shattering Pulse


How often do you plan on using BEBs? We don't have to kill Moon, we got Magma Jet for Welders, Shamans and even FtK's. It seems only good at stopping artifact hate, but I see little reason to run more than 1 right now.

You listed shattering Pulse twice, but I guess you got just 1, making the sideboard exactly 15 cards. Seems very solid to me.

Koen
Logged

-Most People Believe Magic Is Only A Trick. Why Change Their Minds??-  (Sleight Of Hand)
Pest
Basic User
**
Posts: 44


Doomtrain01010
View Profile Email
« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2004, 09:45:35 am »

hah, woops, didn't notice I put Shattering Pulse twice. Yeah, I don't have too much trouble getting the red mana I need, I am drawing so many cards grabbing a volcanic or fetch is no problem. I just hate when Sui plays their stupid Sinkholes and 5 strips, then I get screwed on red and blue mana.

You are right about BEB, I think I can go -1 BEB +1 FoF in the SB. I love FS, and I think FoF is great in the SB.
Logged

Team UCB-sweeping Paragons with Sui since 2004
I Against I
Basic User
**
Posts: 7

innatemadness
View Profile WWW
« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2004, 06:40:24 pm »

Nice thread, it actually inspired me to put the deck together...

I am curious about people's thoughts on the win condition, which is usually 2 Morphlings or a combination of Morphlings and Shoreline Rangers.  I've recently been playing vs. Fish, and haven't been happy with Morphlings;  it can be frustrating to play such a mana-intensive creature against 5 Strips and Null Rods.  I would end up being able to swing with Morphling but not be able to untap and also give him flying for defense.  I first dicked around with Tinker-Colossus that Gandalf suggested, but wasn't satisfied since actually drawing the Colossus at any point is horrible.  But I liked the Tinker idea, so I tried 1 Morphling-1 Tinker-1 Razormane Masticore as the kill conditions.  It works quite well against  Fish, making both Tinker and Razormane Masticore must-counters(especially sweet is that the Masticore still works under Null Rod).

I think Tinker can be good in UR Phid (not awesome like in Slaver or some other decks) if you have at least a couple targets for it.  I've been trying 3 Isochron Scepters along with 1 Crucible of Worlds (I'm running 4 Wastelands) as alternative Tinker targets, and have been content with the results so far.  I also have Mystical Tutor in the sideboard to Wish for, so I have a crude tutor chain for Tinker.  So, any thoughts on the Razormane Masticore?  I realize he probably sucks ass against a deck like Drain Slaver and is not as good as Morphling against 4CC, but I think he could be a great boon against tough but winnable matchups, like Fish.
Logged
Covetous
Basic User
**
Posts: 199


View Profile
« Reply #53 on: July 30, 2004, 09:49:34 am »

I haven't heard much talk about Crucible in this deck.  Is that because people feel that blood moon is so much better than crubible that CoW is unnecessary, or that CoW hasn't really been considered?  What about a different strategy, in which mana denial (rather than color hosing using blood moon) is a more important game plan, such as 3x Mox Monkey and crucible(s) to reuse your strips?  I will point out that monkey is also a decent answer to null rod in a deck with drains and 26 sources, as well as possibly the best answer to Chalice for 2 ever.  Perhaps more monkeys would be a good change.  Also, after starting to play control slaver, I have decided that echoing truth is a very good card, even in type 1.  Perhaps it would work in this deck.  It works as an answer to null rod and any large threat that could ruin your day, as well as pentavite tokens, DoJ tokens and multiple threat beatdown.  

Again, the question becomes--how is this deck better than the other UR control deck that can utilize blood moon, control slaver?
Logged

"What does he do, this man you seek?"
"He kills women!"
"No!  That is incidental...He covets.  That is his nature."

Life is like a penis--when it's soft, you can't beat it, but when it's hard, you get screwed.
Ric_Flair
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 589


TSculimbrene
View Profile Email
« Reply #54 on: August 29, 2004, 07:33:23 pm »

So after watching the metagame and playing in a few tournaments I have decided that I would resurrect, if at all possible, this deck.  The main difference, besides the slower environment, is the deck's core of mana denial.  Here is my newest version:

Counters:
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Stifle

Draw:
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Intuition

Creatures:
3 Morphling
2 Gorilla Shaman

Utility:
2 Isochron Scepter
3 Fire/Ice

Brokenness:
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll (fetches brokenness)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Mana:
7 Solomoxen
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
4 Wastelands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Islands
4 Islands

SB:
4 Rack and Ruin
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Flametongue Kavu
3 Red Elemental Blasts
2 Blue Elemental Blasts or 2 Control Magic

The SB is still under construction.  The main deck is also still under construction.  Scepter and fast mana can result in some crazy opening hands as can fast mana, Crucible, and Wastelands.  I will do some testing and post back with results.
Logged

In order to be the MAN...WOOOO!....you have to beat the MAN....WOOOOO!

Co-founder of the movement to elect Zherbus to the next Magic Invitational.  VOTE ZHERBUS!

Power Count: 4/9
Lactose
Basic User
**
Posts: 2


malardendeavor@hotmail.com asianschoolgirlx
View Profile WWW
« Reply #55 on: August 29, 2004, 08:56:02 pm »

I'd like to hear the idea behind no Mana Leaks and no Cunning Wish.

Also, obviously, why this set of mana denail would serve better than Blood Moon.

Why the 3rd Morphling?

I'm very interested in the results of AK.
Logged

Team 1600 -
Gandalf_The_White_1
Basic User
**
Posts: 606



View Profile
« Reply #56 on: August 29, 2004, 10:23:42 pm »

Ric: I like the ak intuition thing because I have always loathed ophidian as a draw engine.  I also like dropping down to 2 scepters as they are easy to find and running many often isn't too hot as it results on you relying upon the scepters and the investment is just huge.

But... Wasn't the whole point of playing the deck blood moon and the additional countering capability?  Why not just splash black and play U/r/b tog with removal?  I'm not sure about 3 morphling and the 2 stifles, either but the mana denial combination is an interesting route for the deck.  Perhaps I just answered my own question.
Logged

Quote from: The Atog Lord link
We have rather cyclic discussion, and I fully believe that someone so inclined could create a rather accurate computer program which could do a fine job impersonating any of us.
martyr
Basic User
**
Posts: 293


neomanceristaken
View Profile Email
« Reply #57 on: August 31, 2004, 10:43:08 am »

If you wanted to play AK/Intuition, why not ditch the Blood Moons for Crucibles, and play Crucible control? Later Intuitions could snag the Strip Mine or Library or whatnot, in addition to drawing you cards with AK. Also, with this as your win condition, you wouldn't really have to play the Morphling at all, you could just have stix w. Fire/Ice.

4x Force of Will
4x Mana Leak
4x Mana Drain

2x Brainstorm
4x Accumulated Knowledge
3x Intuition
1x Ancestral Recall

1x Gorilla Shaman
3x Isochron Scepter

4x Fire/Ice
3x Crucible of Worlds
1x Time Walk

7x SoLoMoxen
4x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
5x Island
1x Mountain
2x Flooded Strand
2x Wooded Foothills
Logged

O earth, I shall befriend thee more with rain
that shall distil from these two ancient urns
than youthful April shall with all his showers.
Ric_Flair
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 589


TSculimbrene
View Profile Email
« Reply #58 on: August 31, 2004, 05:08:49 pm »

In a metagame with Null Rod, counting on Scepter to win is a dangerous proposition.  Morphling is a good game ender.

Quote
Wasn't the whole point of playing the deck blood moon and the additional countering capability?


The idea of the deck is not to necessarily out counter them, but destroy the mana base and counter the big stuff.  I need some playtesting, but I think it may work.  If not I will just go back to the counter everything plan.  

Quote

Why not just splash black and play U/r/b tog with removal? I'm not sure about 3 morphling and the 2 stifles, either but the mana denial combination is an interesting route for the deck. Perhaps I just answered my own question


The reason for two colors instead of three is to just minimize Wasteland exposure.  I think I am alter some things and add more Crucibles to make sure that the mana denial theme comes through LOUD and CLEAR.  As for Cunning Wish, it is just a matter of preference.  I like the huge amount of draw Intuition/AK provides.

I look at the draw slots like this:

4 Brainstorm (not negotiable with fetchlands)

and

4 AK
2 Intuition

or

4 Impluse
2 Cunning Wish

I wanted to keep the deck simple and focused so I choose the AK/Intuition module.  

This may not work out at all, but I at least wanted to post it so the thread progresses.  Report in with results on the deck, and I will do the same.
Logged

In order to be the MAN...WOOOO!....you have to beat the MAN....WOOOOO!

Co-founder of the movement to elect Zherbus to the next Magic Invitational.  VOTE ZHERBUS!

Power Count: 4/9
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.05 seconds with 17 queries.