Night's Whisper in Mono Black Dragon?

[Astro]

I feel that it goes without saying that mono black Dragon isn't total top notch, however it is competetive enough to post in this forum and works with the current build I have going.  I actually run mono black with a white splash due to my lack of a full set of moxen.  Here's the build I currently run (and yes I love Orim's Chant main):

Kill combo:  7
4x  World Gorger Dragon
1x  Ambassador Laquatus
1x  Sliver Queen
1x  Verdant Force

Graveyard and Draw:  12
4x  Bazaar of Baghdad
4x  Squee Goblin Nabob
4x  Buried Alive

Reanimators:  8
4x  Dance of the Dead
3x  Necromancy
1x  Animate Dead

Search / Draw:  4
1x  Demonic Tutor
1x  Vampiric Tutor
2x  Spoils of the Vault

Disruption:  8
4x  Duress
4x  Orim's Chant

Mana Sources:  21
1x  Black Lotus
1x  Mox Jet
1x  Mox Pearl
1x  Mana Vault
1x  Lotus Petal
1x  Sol Ring
4x  Dark Ritual
4x  Scrubland
4x  Polluted Delta
3x  Swamp

Anyway, it's a great deck for the partially powered players such as myself (the deck is around $1400 to $1600 to build).  I don't want this discussion to be so much about my deck as in the full, but rather what you pros think about the inclusion of Night's Whisper over Spoils of the Vault (damn that card sucks, it almost killed me twice in my last tourney).  Something needs to fill the Spoils slot, what should it be?  As limited as it is, Night's Whisper seems not shitty in theory over Spoils.  

Also, since I'm running (the very unpopular) splash of white what do you boys feel about a lone Eternal Dragon over lets say the 4th Squee?  In my reasoning Eternal Dragon fits very well.    

Also, any constructive criticism is welcome.  I realize that many of you would like to cut the deck into either a splash of green or blue instead of my choice (white) however you have to realize that my only moxen as of yet are a Pearl and a Jet, which I feel warrants the inclusion of white.  Also nothing beats Chant in a combo race.  Theres nothing quite like running 4 unrestricted Time Walks that also have the second purpose of acting as disruption against counters.  Discuss!


P.S.  Sorry I haven't my sb on here, I'll post it tomorrow.  For the fact I'm splashing white, what do you guys feel would be a good inclusion as far as sb goes?

[Marton]

Mana crypt is better than sol ring in this deck. As a comment, instead of doing a white splash for orim's chant, you could splash green for xantid. I understand your sidebord likely uses white, but in my eyes xantid is clearly the better choice of the 2.

-marton

[Bulls on Parade]

I've got a few things to say about your list, but I'll stick to discussing Night's Whisper since that's what you asked for- and you can trust that I speak from more experience with the deck than anyone else around.

Night's Whisper is definitely not needed in what is essentially monoblack Dragon. When I saw the 5D spoiler I was pretty excited that a new playable card drawer would find a use in my deck, but minimal testing proved me wrong. It's too slow and in no way accomplishes what Spoils does unless you're extremely lucky. To quote Diceman (not verbatim) "If it works for you, then I'd suggest you spend your time at a casino instead."

Spoils is going to kill you. It's definitely worth playing though, because for every game it's killed me I'd say it's won me 5 where no other tutor/draw could have.

Plunge into Darkness might work for you since it's certainly better in the deck than Night's Whisper and sort of a girlied up Spoils.  

The fact that you run 2 Spoils makes it worse for sure. I've found 3 to be the right number (except for extreme metagame situations where I'd run the 4th over Squee) because you see it less often and commonly towards the mid/end game (turn 4), and have thus lost a substantial amount of life already in quite a few matchups.

[Astro]

Mana crypt is better than sol ring in this deck. As a comment, instead of doing a white splash for orim's chant, you could splash green for xantid. I understand your sidebord likely uses white, but in my eyes xantid is clearly the better choice of the 2.

-marton

Ahh, my bad.  I wrote Mana Vault which actually should have been Mana Crypt.  And yes Mana Crypt is better than Sol Ring, however Sol Ring is better than Mana Vault (in this deck anyway).

I could splash green, however I'm sticking with with white mostly for sb options and I won't lie, but I own a Pearl and a Jet not an Emerald.  I could splash green anyway, but the white splash for Chant has been working very very very well for me.

I've got a few things to say about your list, but I'll stick to discussing Night's Whisper since that's what you asked for- and you can trust that I speak from more experience with the deck than anyone else around.

Night's Whisper is definitely not needed in what is essentially monoblack Dragon. When I saw the 5D spoiler I was pretty excited that a new playable card drawer would find a use in my deck, but minimal testing proved me wrong. It's too slow and in no way accomplishes what Spoils does unless you're extremely lucky. To quote Diceman (not verbatim) "If it works for you, then I'd suggest you spend your time at a casino instead."

Spoils is going to kill you. It's definitely worth playing though, because for every game it's killed me I'd say it's won me 5 where no other tutor/draw could have.

Plunge into Darkness might work for you since it's certainly better in the deck than Night's Whisper and sort of a girlied up Spoils.

The fact that you run 2 Spoils makes it worse for sure. I've found 3 to be the right number (except for extreme metagame situations where I'd run the 4th over Squee) because you see it less often and commonly towards the mid/end game (turn 4), and have thus lost a substantial amount of life already in quite a few matchups.

Plundge into Darkness is an interesting thought.  To be honest, I'd actually rather go with Desperate Reasearch as I don't have to pay life.  I've already tested it, however its one of those cards thats so conditional that I'm still up in the air.  So far I like Spoils better.

What do you guys feel about running a lone Eternal Dragon over lets say the 4th Squee?  Bebe was running Twisted Abomination over his 4th Squee.  Land cycling critters such as these pitch to themselves (even without a Bazaar, ready for reanimating), net you land in a deck with only 21 mana sources, thin the deck, and look cool.  Thoughts?

[Bulls on Parade]

What do you guys feel about running a lone Eternal Dragon over lets say the 4th Squee?  Bebe was running Twisted Abomination over his 4th Squee.  Land cycling critters such as these pitch to themselves (even without a Bazaar, ready for reanimating), net you land in a deck with only 21 mana sources, thin the deck, and look cool.  Thoughts?

I don't like Eternal Dragon, Twisted Abomination, or Squee #4 (and sometimes #3) maindeck, to be honest. The deck just doesn't need that much recursion Game 1 quite frankly. With 8 Disruption spells and an average turn 2 kill it already has a lot of game vs. control. While our decklists aren't so different card-for-card, it seems like they play out very differently. I'm going to post mine for comparison, though I don't like to spam threads with decklists.

//Tender Beefs(7):
4 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Ambassador Laquatus
1 Sliver Queen
1 Plated Slagwurm
//Drop it like it's HOT (12):
4 Buried Alive
1 Entomb
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
//Higher Ground (9):
4 Animate Dead
4 Necromancy
1 Dance of the Dead
//Save the Population (7):
3 Unmask
4 Duress
//When cheating fails (5):
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Spoils of the Vault
//IlikeDirt (20):
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
4 Bloodstained Mire
6 Swamp
2 Ancient Tomb
SB: 3 Null Rod
SB: 1 Woodripper
SB: 1 Verdant Force
SB: 1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

[Astro]

What do you guys feel about running a lone Eternal Dragon over lets say the 4th Squee?  Bebe was running Twisted Abomination over his 4th Squee.  Land cycling critters such as these pitch to themselves (even without a Bazaar, ready for reanimating), net you land in a deck with only 21 mana sources, thin the deck, and look cool.  Thoughts?

I don't like Eternal Dragon, Twisted Abomination, or Squee #4 (and sometimes #3) maindeck, to be honest. The deck just doesn't need that much recursion Game 1 quite frankly. With 8 Disruption spells and an average turn 2 kill it already has a lot of game vs. control. While our decklists aren't so different card-for-card, it seems like they play out very differently. I'm going to post mine for comparison, though I don't like to spam threads with decklists.

//Tender Beefs(7):
4 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Ambassador Laquatus
1 Sliver Queen
1 Plated Slagwurm
//Drop it like it's HOT (12):
4 Buried Alive
1 Entomb
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
//Higher Ground (9):
4 Animate Dead
4 Necromancy
1 Dance of the Dead
//Save the Population (7):
3 Unmask
4 Duress
//When cheating fails (5):
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Spoils of the Vault
//IlikeDirt (20):
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
4 Bloodstained Mire
6 Swamp
2 Ancient Tomb
SB: 3 Null Rod
SB: 1 Woodripper
SB: 1 Verdant Force
SB: 1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

I like your list.  To be honest I don't see how our decks play out that differently.  Theyre pretty close.  I run 1 more mana source, 1 more squee, 1 less reanimate, and no Entomb, so it basically evens out.  With of course the exception that you run Unmask as apposed to my Chants and your beef is Slagwurm and mine is Verdant Force.  

Have you ever considered splashing green?  And if so, why haven't you chosen a color to splash?

For now I think I like your advice on the Squee.  I'm going to cut one and put my Entomb back in the deck.  To be honest I can't even remember why I took it out.

What do you think of my sb.  It's not complete, as I've been brainstorming for white sb options.  I've been out of the loop for the last 6 months or so.  Is there anything white that is blatantly screaming to be in the sb? Also, I haven't even seen 5th Dawn yet.  So far this is what I have its only 14 cards right now:

4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Disenchant
1x Necromancy
3x Verdant Force
2x Defense Grid

[Bulls on Parade]

I was only saying our decks play out differently because it seems like you spend an entire extra turn racking up the mana to play your Disruption and your combo piece(s) in the same turn. The inclusion of Unmask sort of lets me circumvent this entire turn as well as apply my disruption more liberally- almost like GAT when it played Duress.

On the topic of color splashing, I have been everywhere with every color splash. I actually played W/B in my first tourney (I only had 3 Bazaars and no proxy access at the time, so I incorporated the Academy Rector/Cabal Therapy "engine") as well as Fastbond and Abeyance. It was janky as a mother f*cker, no doubt. I played U/B before Rich's list from GenCon was out, because GenCon didn't happen for another month or so, and it was surprisingly similar. Most recently I played in quite a few tournaments with the green splash, and found myself hating the deck more and more every time I played it. I came back to monoblack because of my sideboard mainly. Null Rods and Defense Grids, as well as something else I've got up my sleeve warrant the use of Ancient Tomb. Game 1 as I've said, the deck has something good vs. control no matter what, and games 2 and 3 you've got hate for hate.

What do you think of my sb.  It's not complete, as I've been brainstorming for white sb options.  I've been out of the loop for the last 6 months or so.  Is there anything white that is blatantly screaming to be in the sb? Also, I haven't even seen 5th Dawn yet.  So far this is what I have its only 14 cards right now:

4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Disenchant
1x Necromancy
3x Verdant Force
2x Defense Grid

Well, I'd definitely run 15 cards for starters  
Personally, 3 Null Rods have brought me so much success, but you run 2 more artifact mana accelerators than do I so you might want to rework something before you add those. Defense Grid I'd also bump up to 3 for the 15th card. I hear what you're saying with the whole "out of the loop for 6 month's" thing- the sideboard Necromancy reminds me of when Stax/Chalice was all over the place (the same goes for Verdant Force). You don't really need to dedicate a valuable sideboard slot to a Necromancy, but I do maindeck 4 as you can see. The metagame looks like it's in for a pretty significant shift, so I can't really advocate one way or the other on this issue yet.

If you opt to stay away from Null Rod, Fifth Dawn presents Engineered Explosives which would definitely be worthwhile. You can play it for 0 to answer opposing first turn Moxen/ Tormod's Crypt and then lay your own acceleration, or pay B and have it destroy the less and less common Planar Void. Actually, you even have the option with your deck of playing one for too. I'd definitely recommend this card.

[BreathWeapon]

Good Lord play Green and MD Xantid Swarms. Swarm + Animates is the cornerstone of your game plan vs Control. The SB is much better, Pernicious Deed and Oxidize are mandatory vs Prison.

@Bull's on Parard, that quote from DiceManX is completely out of context. The entirety of that statement was roughly, "If you are going off consistantly on the 2nd Turn with Duress/Swarm or Unmask back up, may I suggest the Casion?" That quote has no centext concering Night Whispers at all.

[Bulls on Parade]

@Bulls on Parade: that quote from DicemanX is completely out of context. The entirety of that statement was roughly "If you are going off consistently on the 2nd Turn with Duress,Swarm or Unmask backup, may I suggest the casino?" That quote has no context concering Night 's Whisper at all.

OH. The point was Diceman was calling whoever it was extremely lucky, which is EXACTLY the manner in which I used the quote. By the way, I took the liberty to correct your spelling and grammar. No problem.

[BreathWeapon]

Wow, that spelling was awful. Sorry about that.

Anyway, I thought you were using that quote as reasoing against the inclusion of Night Whispers. Considering the paragraph it's in, I think it was an honest mistake.

At any rate, if your playing strict Mono-B Dragon I highly suggest you try Sundering Titan in your MD or SB. FAT and 'Geddon for the cost of 1 Animate is rather ridiculous.

[Astro]

4x Orim's Chant
4x Scrubland

As always, I enjoy your input Wauf.  I am infact Laser Brains.  What exactly are you getting at with this post? Are you pointing out the fact that I'm only running white for 4 Chants and sb?  More input would be welcome.  Thanks.

Edit:  I'd also like to take note that the only two card in my build that I really am most likely to be disappointed when drawing are the two Spoils of the Vaults.  Those two slots in my build are my only gripes.  I'd love to find either another card to replace them with, whether it be search or draw.  I just really hate the use of this slot main deck.  

Night's Whisper is basically an excuse to get the discussion going.  I've tried everything from Desperate Research (which isn't too shabby) to Spoils of the Vault.  There has to be something better than Spoils.  It's way overrated, I've been playing variants since way before Entomb was restricted (much like Bulls admits he has, even Diceman for that matter).

[cssamerican]

Just as a general question I ask everytime I see a B* Dragon deck. Why isn't anyone running [card]Demonic Consultation[/card]?
And as a sidenote I am confident that green is the best splash color for an aggresive black based build of Dragon.

I'd also like to take note that the only two card in my build that I really am most likely to be disappointed when drawing are the two Spoils of the Vaults. Those two slots in my build are my only gripes. I'd love to find either another card to replace them with, whether it be search or draw.

To me Spoils of the Vault is the card that makes play BG a feasible option, if anything you should be asking how you could fit more in your deck. It is what makes the deck consistently fast.

Let me first say, BG Dragon has been my pet combo deck for a very long time, and I have come to some realizations through tons of testing. BG versions of Dragon must take a drastically different approach than their BUG counterparts to be successful. What I mean by this is, if you are going to play Dragon in such a way that you sit back and wait for the perfect moment to go off by utilizing Bazaar of Baghdad and Squee, Goblin Nabob, then do not waste your time playing BG. It is vastly inferior to BUG at executing this strategy. However, if you want to play Dragon much more aggressively then BG is for you, but to do this you have to design the deck to conform to that strategy, and have the guts to play with cards like Spoils of the Vault. This means you play a very fast build that is capable of going off turn one sometimes and turn two a lot of times with the drawback of occasional suicide. Here is a list of what I am playing currently and some explanations behind my decisions.

B/G Dragon

Creatures (14)
2x Ambassador Laquatus
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Worldgorger Dragon    
4x Xantid Swarm    

Spells (13)  
4x Buried Alive    
4x Dark Ritual
4x Spoils of the Vault
1x Demonic Consultation        

Enchantments (12)
4x Dance of the Dead
4x Animate Dead    
4x Necromancy    

Artifacts  (4)
1x Black Lotus    
1x Lotus Petal    
1x Mana Crypt    
1x Mox Jet    

Lands  (17)
4x Bayou    
4x Bazaar of Baghdad    
4x Polluted Delta    
5x Swamp

Sideboard (15)
4x Plated Slagwurm
4x Verdant Force
4x Pernicious Deed
3x Squee, Goblin Nabob

Animate Enchantments: The first thing you have to prepare for if you play a Dragon deck aggressively is losing all your permanents because you can’t afford to wait around until you get disruption to go off safely. To do that you have to increase your odds of being able to drop some mana and follow it up with another animate enchantment, in order to do that, you need to run all twelve of the animate enchantments.  

Tutors: Spoils of the Vault and Demonic Consultation are the tutors that allow you to go off consistently at such speed, not running them in BG is a mistake. Do they have some risk associated with them? Yes, they are risky, but if you don’t like playing a risky version of Dragon I suggest you play BUG it is better at playing the safe game than BG anyway.

Disruption: You will notice there is no Duress or Unmask in my build, which is because I don’t care what my opponent has in his hand. The deck is designed to power through setbacks such as counter spells and removal spells. If you counter my animate enchantment then I will just play another one, if you plow my dragon I will play some mana and go get another one. I am counting on the fact that I can produce more threats in a short amount of time than my opponent can produce answers. Now I am sure you are wondering why then do I maindeck Xantid Swarm, it is simple, if they stay in the game then I win and that is too good to pass up.

Edited: I forgot the sideboard in my deck list. Problem fixed.

[BreathWeapon]

Wow cssamerican, I've played that exact same list with -1 Laquatos for +1 Sliver Queen. It's nice to see that we have independantly come to the same conclusions, tho' I did take a lot of your advice to heart in the last B/g thread.

I don't understand why Spoils-Dragon doesn't see more play, considering that it's superior to Belcher, IMO, and easier on the pocket book.

How are your match ups vs Prison? Most of my playtest partners got smart, and learned that 4xTrinisphere and 4xChalice of the Void are mandatory in every Prison deck with 3-4xTormod's Crypt in the SB. The Vogue tends to be 7/10 or Stax, ATM. At best, I can board in 4xOxidize and 4xPernicious Deed (-Swarms, -Dance) and have considered Null Rods. The match up isn't favorable if the Prison player is fully prepared, but thankfuly people have been dismissing Crypts and Angel in their SBs. The match up is very "Coin Toss," but you have more at risk than they do, from what I've seen. I know most Prox 5 Tournaments don't have a large number of Shops, but I worry about them.

One thing you forgot to mention, B/g Spoils Dragon uses Dragon's ability to send the game into an infinite loop MUCH more than U/B/g does. You should always consider sending the game into a Draw if your Bazaar is Wasted pre-emptively and a Dragon hit the yard. If you used Spoils that turn vs Aggro or Fish, you should definately go for the Draw. The deck isn't nearly as suicidal as it looks.

Getting back on track, I don't think that Night Whispers is a bad call for B/g Dragon in the appropriate metagame. If you want to play the "Sit Back" role, than nothing is stopping you, IMO. I've brought this list out in Shopless Metagames and have done fairly well with it.

"Whispering Dragon" for Prox 5

The Combo (6)
4xWorldgorger Dragon
1xSliver Queen
1xAmbassador Laquatos

Outlets (8)
4xBuried Alive
4xBazaar of Baghdad

Animates (8)
4xNecromancey
4xAnimate Dead

Disruption (4)
4xXantid Swarm

Draw Engine (8)
4xNight Whispers
4xSquee, Goblin Nabob

Tutors (3)
1xDemonic Tutor
1xVampiric Tutor
1xDemonic Consultation

Mana (23)
4xDark Ritual
1xBlack Lotus
1xMox Jet
1xSol Ring
1xMana Crypt
4xFetch Lands
4xBayou
7xSwamp

The absence of FoW/Duress and Artifact Acceleration only seems to be detrimental vs Shops. In the appropriate environment, I prefer it to U/B/g Dragon because it's; More Consistant, Faster, has Superior Disruption vs Control and a Reliable Manabase. I think this is the safer bet in a 4cc/Fish metagame. When Shops show up, it's probably time to run and hide. Trinisphere, Chalice, Wastes and Tormod's from the board can be too much for Oxidize and Deed to fend off, IMO.

[Astro]

Couple questions for you guys:

1).  I noticed that neither of you run Entomb over lets say the 4th Squee.  In general how do you guys feel about Entomb for this deck?

2).  This one is for cssamerican.  How is Consultation better than lets say Demonic or Vampiric Tutors?  Why are you not running Vampiric or Demonic?  Do you feel they are too slow? IMO, Consultation is even riskier than Spoils as you can retroactively remove your both your Ambassador / Sliver Queen from the game.

3).  How big of a necessity is it to cut disruption down from 8 to 4 to make room for all 12 animate effects?  To be honest I can't believe I never thought of this sooner.  Not only will you rarely be waiting for an animate effect, but you will be pushing through control all the same.  Would you guys say that this is now a must in every dragon deck?  




Discuss.

[cssamerican]

How are your match ups vs Prison.

They are not great, but I will say they are much better in most cases than Draw 7 or Belcher would be in the same circumstances. I do not think any combo deck can expect to thrive versus four Trinispheres and four CotV, so I don't worry about it too much.

I noticed that neither of you run Entomb over lets say the 4th Squee. In general how do you guys feel about Entomb for this deck?

First I do not run Squee, Goblin Nabob at all in BG Dragon, I use Bazaar of Baghdad strictly as an uncountable discard outlet and a way to dig through the deck during the combo, not as a draw engine. As far as Entomb goes, it is one-dimensional. If I replaced anything in the deck to put it in, it would be a Buried Alive; however, Buried Alive can get the Xantid Swarm, the Dragon, and the Ambassador Laquatus, or whatever combination that may be appropriate for the time. That flexibility is really where Buried Alive strength lies, and I am not sure I would want to give that up. Plus any deck that plays Spoils of the Vault likes four ofs, and that probably has a little bit of an impact as well, at least for me.

This one is for cssamerican. How is Consultation better than lets say Demonic or Vampiric Tutors? IMO, Consultation is even riskier than Spoils as you can retroactively remove your both yourAmbassador / Sliver Queen from the game.

You can't play a Demonic Tutor and an animate enchantment off a Dark Ritual. This seems trivial, but it is BIG deal. You can't play a Vampiric Tutor for a Bazaar and win in the same turn. This is HUGE when it comes to winning early. Removing both your win conditions happens, but when it does you draw the game. Breathweapon alluded to this in his earlier post “This deck draws a lot�.

How big of a necessity is it to cut disruption down from 8 to 4 (I count Xantid as disruption) to make room for all 12 animate effects? To be honest I can't believe I never thought of this sooner. Not only will you rarely be waiting for an animate effect, but you will be pushing through control all the same. Would you guys say that this is now a must in every dragon deck?

No, BUG Dragon can sit back draw cards and develop their mana base. Then they use their disruption to ensure themselves of the win, and this is the best strategy for BUG Dragon. BG Dragon is a different animal entirely, it reminds much more of Belcher or Draw 7; you keep firing bombs at them till they break that is why you need all twelve enchantments. The thing I like about this deck more so than Draw 7 and Belcher is common hose cards like Null Rod or CotV for zero don’t really hurt it.

[BreathWeapon]

I also think that most versions of B/g Dragon should be using Sundering Titan as an Animate Target. I have trouble finding the room in Spoils-Dragon, but I'm convinced he's worth it.

[Astro]

ccsamerican, I'm very intrigued by your deck.  Aside from the "tutor" question I had, how do you feel about your mana base?  From what I see you have basically dropped Squee altogether and replaced it with more mana sources.  I know you are working toward speed, however pitching Elvish Spirit Guides doesn't exactly have great synergy with Bazaar.  Infact pitching your hand fast makes Bazaar really suck bad.  

Aside from that, I'm completely happy running 20 to 22 mana sources in black dragon, the deck really isn't that mana intensive.  Your running 25 mana sources.    It's a meta call however, nine times out of ten I'd much rather draw a Squee than a another mana source as I feel I already am running a solid mana base.

IMO, I'd at the very least cut two Spirit Guides and run a minimum of two Squees.  This would bring your mana base down to 23 (which I still feel is high), and give you somewhat of an engine vs. control.

[cssamerican]

Once you add Squee to the maindeck you are preparing for the long game, if your preparing for the long game you need Duress. Now you have diminished your chances of going off extremely early and all you have is a bad version of BUG Dragon.

Unfortunately, after reading over my previous post, I am not sure that I have done a good job of explaining how my version of the deck plays. And that might be the reason your missing out on some of my points.

Against decks that have no instant-based removal for a Dragon, drawing cards is irrelevant because if needed, you will overpower them just by top decking animate enchantments. These are you easy match-ups in most cases, with the exception to this being TriniStax as BreathWeapon mentioned. But it is more of what I would call a coin flip match that an absolutely bad match, and even if you lose the coin flip you got better odds of winning than other fast combo decks out there.

Against decks that do have removal for the Dragon you have to make a decision whether to go for the draw are to go for the win. If you go for the win and get you get caught with no cards in hand and no permanents in play, Squee is not something you want to draw. In these situations all you want to do is top deck a little mana and another enchantment. If you get caught after going for the draw, mana is better than Squee. Because Squee without your Bazaar is useless, but mana lets you play another enchantment. In most cases against these types of deck I just go the draw route if the win isn’t there early, because I have a very good chance post sideboard.

Post sideboard the deck can change into an aggressive reanimator deck which does utilize Bazaar/Squee as its draw engine. This strategy works extremely well against Fish since most Fish players will side in an additional Stifle and a couple of Blue Elemental Blast to combat the Dragons that don't exist and not have any way to deal with the fat that is smashing their face in.

I also think that most versions of B/g Dragon should be using Sundering Titan as an Animate Target. I have trouble finding the room in Spoils-Dragon, but I'm convinced he's worth it.

I like Plated Slagwurm better because it is harder to remove. Artifact and targeted creature removal spells are popular, enchantment removal spells are not. And Verdant is just a better creature in many cases.

Edited: For grammar.

[BreathWeapon]

Plated Slagwurm can still fall victim to Wish->Disenchant, but I agree he is a solid threat vs 4cc.

Sundering Titan is a disruption tool, aswell as beatdown. Artifact Removal isn't an issue, IMO, because it triggers 'Geddon and sends your opponent back to 0 Land. Then, hopefuly, you can drop another Mana Source and go off. Try it out sometime in the MD and see how it works. I cut the 2nd Win Condition to fit him in, I don't remove Laquatos that often (You can still Draw anyway).

Besides, turning your deck into ReAnimator/Ernham 'Geddon is HAWT, as they say.

[Arvid]

In my BG dragon I've got 7 slots that I think can be changed. For the last amount of time I've filled them with:

1 Ambassador Laquatos #2 / 1 Sliver Queen / 1 Caller of the Claw
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 Spoils of the Vault
1 Demonic Consultation

I've been thinking on modifying this, and I could use your help. First, as you have said, Spoils really can give you randomdeaths. I'm currently playtesting Tainted Pact, and after that I'll probably playtest Plunge into Darkness and Death Wish - anyone who can give me their opinions on these cards in non-blue dragon?

Second, the second win condition is a card slot that could be freed up if I end up cutting tutor/search cards that removes cards from the game.

Last, there's the debatable inclusion/exclusion of Squee. If I should cut them I would probably replace them with Buried Alive #4 and disruption #9-10, probably Cabal Therapy or Unmask.

[BreathWeapon]

Well, since this was the last thread discussing B/g Dragon I thought I'd bump it with my thoughts on Doomsday

If Doomsday is going to find a home in Combo, Dragon is one of its strongest candidates. With the ability to stack; Bazaar of Baghdad, Dragon, Animate, Laquatos, Animate or combinations substituting Xantid Swarm and Black Lotus for cards in hand, Doomsday seems like the ulimate in Win Now Tech.

Here is roughly what I was thinking of,

4xWorldgorger Dragon
1xAmbassador Laquatos

1xSundering Titan

4xBuried Alive
4xBazaar of Baghdad

4xDoomsday
4xSpoils of the Vault
1xDemonic Consultation

4xAnimate Dead
4xDance of the Dead

4xXantid Swarm

4xDark Ritual
1xBlack Lotus
1xLotus Petal
1xMox Jet
4xElvish Spirit Guide
1xMana Crypt
4xFetch Lands
4xBayou
5xSwamp

With the metagame focusing on Crucible of World and the lack of Chalice in Workshop decks coupled with the vanishing Tormod's Crypt, this may be B/g Dragon's best chance to shine.

[Cjkory]

I fully agree doomsday is savage in dragon. And now since it has been unrestricted mono black dragon is tech. YOu go easily first turn doomday ditch everything but like reanimaters and maybe a lotus or sumthing. And in this case i think nights whispers is great because on first turn if u can get doomsday then whispers and draw into say a lotus and necromancy you can win first turn (though i would wait til their turn in responce to one of their spells.

[Whatever Works]

Why are none of the dragon decks that run green not using Crop Rotation?

I dont play dragon much, but the card would appear to be a great fit to help get out Bazaar's especially in the current metagame where cards such as (crucible/B2B/strip effects) will probably only become more common.

[Moxlotus]

Why are none of the dragon decks that run green not using Crop Rotation?

I dont play dragon much, but the card would appear to be a great fit to help get out Bazaar's especially in the current metagame where cards such as (crucible/B2B/strip effects) will probably only become more common.

Find a card to cut.  Some decks are so tight they don't even use Vamp or Demonic tutor.

[Bulls on Parade]

Why are none of the dragon decks that run green not using Crop Rotation?

I dont play dragon much, but the card would appear to be a great fit to help get out Bazaar's especially in the current metagame where cards such as (crucible/B2B/strip effects) will probably only become more common.

Find a card to cut.  Some decks are so tight they don't even use Vamp or Demonic tutor.

This isn't really such a deck- Crop Rotation just isn't worth it. It subtracts from the deck's speed for restricted utility that additionally sets you up to fall horribly.

Edit: I'm not going to put up my list just yet, but I'm obviously working on the deck with Doomsdays...

It's really overrated at this point however. Don't forget that you MUST stack your deck with:
Dragon
Laquatus
Typically a Ritual/ accelerator
Typically a Duress
+1 slot
if you have Buried Alive in hand (an Animate is assumed obviously)
or you may even have to stack it with Buried Alive as the top card. Usually if you end up in a situation where you need to stack Buried Alive in the 5 card library you'll need at least a Duress in hand.

Obviously randomly winning for BBB is alright, especially when unrestricted, but it also sets you up to lose big, not that this is a problem for people who play Spoils Dragon in the first place. It's a big gamble and pays off frequently enough to be a worthwhile choice in the long run. Hell, I played the deck for years before Doomsday was unrestricted so I'm obviously not stopping now..

[Whatever Works]

Why are none of the dragon decks that run green not using Crop Rotation?

I dont play dragon much, but the card would appear to be a great fit to help get out Bazaar's especially in the current metagame where cards such as (crucible/B2B/strip effects) will probably only become more common.

Find a card to cut.  Some decks are so tight they don't even use Vamp or Demonic tutor.

Your right in that it is extremely hard to find a card to cut, but Vamp/Demonic are both inferior when compared to Lim-Duls Vault (or that is what Dicemanx told me when i played vs. his dragon in gencon) so those cards might not be the best example, but your point has been proven. If I was going to cut a card it would most likely be the excess # of kill conditions in the deck. 2 is most likely the minimum because of the random issues that can occur, but beyond that opening up 1 slot your most likely going to be forced to either alter the mana base or the # of animate spells in the deck.

[Whatever Works]

Why are none of the dragon decks that run green not using Crop Rotation?

I dont play dragon much, but the card would appear to be a great fit to help get out Bazaar's especially in the current metagame where cards such as (crucible/B2B/strip effects) will probably only become more common.

Find a card to cut.  Some decks are so tight they don't even use Vamp or Demonic tutor.

This isn't really such a deck- Crop Rotation just isn't worth it. It subtracts from the deck's speed for restricted utility that additionally sets you up to fall horribly.

How would the card slow you down that much? Considering that if you dont have bazaar it can go fetch it, and if you do have bazaar you can just pitch the card away??? Its a narrow card I agree with you there, but its ability helps one of the major problems with the deck, and thats running with no bazaar or compulsion.

[Bulls on Parade]

How would the card slow you down that much? Considering that if you dont have bazaar it can go fetch it, and if you do have bazaar you can just pitch the card away??? Its a narrow card I agree with you there, but its ability helps one of the major problems with the deck, and thats running with no bazaar or compulsion.

Relax with the parallels to 3 color dragon for a minute, and see the deck how it is.

Crop Rotation slows you down veriably because you don't run that many lands in the first place. Losing one for a non-mana producer is bad. There are already 10 cards that put Bazaar in your hand right away (Spoils, Consult, Demonic, 4 Bazaar), and this is enough.

Edit:
The deck doesn't have a problem running with no Bazaar or Compulsion, and that's why I had advocated it so much in the past. Buried Alive + Animate Dead is a winning combo. Intuition + Animate Dead is not unless you throw Bazaar into the mix. However, that discussion is over, and even if it weren't this just isn't the place for it.

[BreathWeapon]

Crop Rotation->Bazaar is intense card disadvantage with out Squee. You draw 2 and Discard 4 (3 from Bazaar and 1 from Crop Rotation). It's also flat out inferior to Vampiric Tutor and Demonic Tutor, neither of which are good enough to find their way into the deck.

[cssamerican]

I think the Crop Rotation question as been answered; however, I am not sure why anyone is excited about Doomsday for B/G Dragon. First, it has no synergy with any type of reanimation gameplan; therefore, it would be sided out very frequently. Secondly, it requires three black mana to cast! That means you probably gonna need Dark Ritual and Doomsday in your opening hand for it to be worthwhile, and even if it does resolve it doesn’t guarantee anything other than if you run into any trouble you will lose the game. (This is because in most cases it would be a set-up card for a turn two animate or swarm; however, by turn two your opponent is very likely to be able to counter animates or remove swarms, thus leaving you with a short lifespan and very little resources.) Maybe I am missing something here, and if I am please educate me, but I just can’t see Doomsday being a worthwhile card to invest testing time into.