[deck] Crushing Chamber-Mono Brown aggro

[Tobi]

Myr Servitor is a nice card, and may improve the midgame (and slightly weaken the explosive first 2-3 turns). Very good synergy with Skullclamp and Crusher. You could cut the Frogmites for them.

Is Crucible really that good? It seems to be very slow for a quick aggro deck like this, and it seems to be out of the deck's focus. I think more creatures could be better here. Myr Retriever comes to mind (for clamping), or Juggernaut for more early pressure.

What about the Sideboard? How do you plan to use the Chalice? For 2 to stop Drains? Maybe Defense Grid would be a better option here.

[JDawg13]

Myr Servitor is a nice card, and may improve the midgame (and slightly weaken the explosive first 2-3 turns). Very good synergy with Skullclamp and Crusher. You could cut the Frogmites for them.

I really don't like this idea.  We're not aiming to improve the midgame with this deck.  It's an aggro deck with a draw engine to support it; hence, we look to be killing within three or four turns of the start of the game as consistently as possible.  The Servitors do have some nice synergy, but aren't AS good as they could be because we're not running Ravagers and Clamping can only be done at sorcery speed, so there's no chance of awesome upkeep tricks.

Is Crucible really that good? It seems to be very slow for a quick aggro deck like this, and it seems to be out of the deck's focus. I think more creatures could be better here. Myr Retriever comes to mind (for clamping), or Juggernaut for more early pressure.

Yes, Crucible really is that good.  It may seem slightly out of place, but when you realize the fact that a first turn Crucible second turn recurring Wastelands flat out wins games, you start to understand why it has found a home in the deck.  I'd have to be ludicrously impressed by something else before I cut the Crucibles.

What about the Sideboard? How do you plan to use the Chalice? For 2 to stop Drains? Maybe Defense Grid would be a better option here.

We generally use Chalice to help shore up the FCG matchup, which, as you should notice, was one of Hale's only two match losses on the day at SCG.  Chalice set at 2 usually slows them down enough for us to swing in for the kill.  Defense Grid looks like an interesting idea, although I'm not sure it's 100% necessary as we are usually too fast for 4cc to keep up with us.  Thanks for the input.

[Purple Hat]

I use Chalice against combo.  Jaris uses chalice a lot more then I do.  I think he uses it against FCG and something else I can't remember.

Crucible is AWESOME on so many levels.  It singlehandedly wins games.  It has incredible synergy with workshops, factories and strip effects.  I'm actually looking for ways to play more of these.

Myr servitor would be great.  The problem is what can you really cut?  The other creatures are strictly superior in the deck.  Myr Enforcer is probably the worst of them but I don't think I'd cut him for servitors.  That leaves cutting the non-creature cards.  Since Servitor is only good if you see 2 of them in a game, (and you probably need a skullclamp too) you need 4 of them.  so what of the following is cutable?

4 Sphere of Resistence (probably necessary)
2 Crucible of Worlds (Insanely synergistic)
4 Cranial Plating (Broken)
4 Skullclamp (could probably go to 3 but 4 is better)
3 Genesis chamber (incredible Synergy)
1 Memory Jar (Broken)

At best without cutting crucible I would say that we could find 2 slots (-1 clamp, -1 sphere) but that's pushing it.  Cutting Crucible would yield another 2 slots but I'm awefully hesitant to cut anything that powerful from a deck that can abuse it.  The same logic goes for Jar.  We could cut Jar to produce an extra slot so we could keep either the clamp or the sphere.  It doesn't come up much so it wouldn't really affect the deck in most matches...but when it comes up it's broken as all hell.

The other problem with cutting things to go to Servitors is that Servitor needs to find a friend before you can use it and to really abuse it you need a skullclamp in play with it.  With the exception of Skullclamp all the cutable cards do something useful on their own.  Crucible protects your mana base in the early game and locks things down if you get a wasteland.  Sphere is particularly asymetrical when you are playing with affinity creatures.  Jar is just plain broken.  You can't really replace clamps with Servitors because the Clamp and the Servitor work so well together.

I feel like I may be comming across as running down people's ideas but that's not how I mean my comments at all.  I've put a lot of testing time into the current list and I would need to be convinced on a card to make a change.  I merely mean to state my case for the cards currently in the deck as opposed the suggested cards.  Ornithopter got added after several discussions similar to the servitor discussion that's just begining now.  I wanted to add it but we couldn't find space.  Then we decided that Ravager sucked and then there was room.

Hale

[Tobi]

The Speres are very necessary, and cutting Skullclamps is not good if you have no other draw/tutor ways to get it. So I guess Servitors will have no room in agressive artifact decks. They may have more sense in lock-decks with Smokestack and Thirst for Knowledge probably.

Have you thoght about Trinisphere against Combo?

I never tried Chalice against FCG, but it seems to be a good choice.

[JDawg13]

The Speres are very necessary, and cutting Skullclamps is not good if you have no other draw/tutor ways to get it. So I guess Servitors will have no room in agressive artifact decks. They may have more sense in lock-decks with Smokestack and Thirst for Knowledge probably.

I'm going to agree with this thought here.  I just goldfished a few games to test out the possibility of Myr Servitors (always open to new ideas) and they never tested to be really any good.  They're simply too conditional, as we would need to see at least two Servitors and a Skullclamp to make them pull their weight.

Have you thoght about Trinisphere against Combo?.

Yes, actually, Trinisphere was in one of our first builds of the deck, but we discarded it as the only time it was being brought in was against Tendrils/Belcher combo.  Additionally, Chalice helps in those matchups and is a possibility for use elsewhere, so Trinisphere ended up getting cut from the board to make room for other goodies.

EDIT(s): Grammar

[rozetta]

Agreed. On further inspection the servitors would be a little slow. You have to keep one on the table for a whole turn before you get the others back - a situation that probably means you're not generating enough pressure and are therefore probably losing. I think even that 1/1 modular for 1 mana would be better and that doesn't make the cut.

The problem I've noticed is that Skullclamp, what with all your other creatures apart from Arcbound Crusher having toughness of 2 or more, is conditional on having genesis chamber active to start drawing cards most of the time. I initially thought it was a little situational, however I now realise it is another artifact for cranial plating, does give creatures an extra point of power, and can pull you out of a midgame situation, so it's worth running them.

[policehq]

I'm glad to see that someone else is playing this deck. I have a similar deck with Lodestone Myrs as back-ups to Arcbound Crushers. The added benefits are that they cut off Genesis Chamber during the opponent's turn, and artifacts that have already hit play add to their power/toughness. Finally, Lodestone Myrs combined with Arcbound Crushers and Arcbound Ravagers make the deck less vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares, Chain of Vapor, Rack and Ruin, etc.

I also run Arcbound Ravagers because they allow all of your Frogmites and Myr Enforcers to be 1cc draw-two spells. With Cranial Plating in play, you usually lose one artifact to draw two, and add an extra power. With Cranial Plating in your library, Arcbound Ravagers essentially become Cranial Plating numbers 5-8.

One problem that I had when running Sphere of Resistance is that I often found myself having to choose in the early turns whether or not I was going to go aggro or control. Obviously, the decision is made based on the deck you are playing against, so in the end, I found Sphere of Resistance to be a sideboard card, at best. I still find Crucible of Worlds necessary, at least in this current state of the game where nearly everyone is running recurring strips.

I sort of like the idea of Mishra's Factories, but my problems with them are that usually all of my mana is tied up clamping creatures or playing the big guys, and in the early turns, sometimes you get stuck with a workshop and a factory, which serves little purpose. Incidentally, I can't find room for them anyway.

Here is my list:

       3 Ancient Tomb
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mana Vault
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Tolarian Academy
        4 Wasteland

        3 Crucible of Worlds
        2 Genesis Chamber
        1 Memory Jar
        4 Skullclamp        

        4 Arcbound Crusher
        4 Arcbound Ravager
        4 Frogmite
        4 Lodestone Myr
        4 Metalworker
        4 Myr Enforcer

        4 Cranial Plating

Barry

[Purple Hat]

that looks alot like our older lists.  Lodestone myr and Ravager seem to be forcing you to play Metalworkers though.  The reason we cut the Ravagers was that once we put factories in for metalworkers we didn't want the Ravagers any more.  We just never cast them early and they generally sat there being a pretty 1/1.  I'll give them another look though.

I think Sphere is a necessary evil in this deck.  You are at a major disadvantage against combo if you don't see them.  It becomes basically an Auto-loss if you don't play them main.

One other point is that I think you need to run more Genesis Chambers.  With only two I can't see how you would see them often enough.  We have 3 and I'd like to fit a fourth one.  

You're also not playing ornithopter.  I think it's one of the strongest creatures in the deck.  It just does SO much.  And it's SO cheap.

Hale

[policehq]

that looks alot like our older lists. Lodestone myr and Ravager seem to be forcing you to play Metalworkers though. The reason we cut the Ravagers was that once we put factories in for metalworkers we didn't want the Ravagers any more. We just never cast them early and they generally sat there being a pretty 1/1. I'll give them another look though.

Metalworker is a card that draws out Force of Will (similar to Goblin Welder in The Man Show). No control player will let you have it, and when you're in a situation to play it on the first turn (Ancient Tomb + Mox, Mishra's Workshop, Mana Crypt + land), usually either you go off on the second turn (if it resolves), or you're in a position to play an Arcbound Crusher or Lodestone Myr with no worries of having it countered on the next turn. Testing has shown that the deck is not dependent on him at all, but you can do some really sick things once Arcbound Ravager/Skullclamp get going, on the second turn, or after a Memory Jar if he stays in play.

If you are not playing Lodestone Myr, you're dependent (in an artifact-only deck, mind you, with little draw and no tutoring power) on drawing one Arcbound Crusher in the early game to win, and you're more vulnerable to removal.

I've explained Arcbound Ravager enough. The card is a must in this deck. He makes your Skullclamps twice as effective and acts as Cranial Plating numbers 5-8 (since the deck IS dependent on that early power boost).

I think Sphere is a necessary evil in this deck. You are at a major disadvantage against combo if you don't see them. It becomes basically an Auto-loss if you don't play them main.

But um... you don't always play against combo, and the strongest combo deck (Dragon) can work around this easily. The metagame seems to be dominated by Workshop-Aggro, Fish, Hulk, 4-C Control, and Dragon. I don't even play Sphere of Resistance in my sideboard anymore. It's just not effective.

One other point is that I think you need to run more Genesis Chambers. With only two I can't see how you would see them often enough. We have 3 and I'd like to fit a fourth one.

Genesis Chamber and Arcbound Ravager are redundant, and Arcbound Ravager is the stronger piece of the engine. Genesis Chamber mainly acts to double (or quadruple, with Cranial Plating equipped) the +1 power to Arcbound Crusher or Lodestone Myr. Genesis Chamber is actually almost drop-able in my build because I'm still swinging for 15-30 on the third turn easily without it.

You're also not playing ornithopter. I think it's one of the strongest creatures in the deck. It just does SO much. And it's SO cheap.

And it's also SO dependent on other combo pieces (not very good in this aggro build) and SO unneeded with Lodestone Myr and Arcbound Crusher already acting as the kill cards. Trample is more important than flying.

Barry

[Purple Hat]

Trample is more important than flying.

That is entirely opponent dependant.  Against 7/10 or Tog/GAT I'm not sure of that.  

Also, I don't understand how you get 15-30 by the end of turn 3 even if you resolve a metalworker.  At least not routinely.  I mean it seems to me that the ideal draw for this would go something like this:
Turn one:workshop, metalworker
Turn Two:tap metalworker: reveal chamber, crusher, lodestone myr, frogmite.  Play them all and another frogmite.
Turn 3: if you're lucky...play plating, equip, and attack with a 20/9 crusher, a 4/4 lodestone myr, 2 tokens, and 2 froggys.

that's 30...so yeah...It's possible...if metalworker becomes active, and you topdeck plating.

It still seems like metalworker is a wasted turn in your deck.  You play the worker on turn one, force of will, swords and oxidize all begin to look alot like timewalk...then what happens?  You do all the stuff our build does on turn one anyway.  

Our lower curve allows us to cast everything without a metalworker, so in games where you don't draw one early, or it doesn't resolve we would not be hampered by that problem.  While I believe in counter bating I don't believe you should play a 4 of in your maindeck just for that purpose.  

Factories can't be countered and we can activate them and put on plating in a lot of cases.  That makes a huge threat that is very difficult to deal with and works even if they are holding Force of Will.  We frequently get Tons of mana out of our Factories by using them to animate themselves.  With plating in play factories animate into 3/2 creatures rather then 2/2's.  They recur off Crucible and protect you from Rack and Ruin on your Crusher.  The synergies here far outweigh the advantages of metalworker.  Sure, the metalworker is broken if it resolves first turn...but it's basically a timewalk for the opponent if you play it first turn, especially if it gets forced or removed, and sucks in the late game.  Mishra's factory is always good, and is never a timewalk for the opponent.  My deck does sick things on turn ONE without the metalworker...why would I give that up for the ability to do sick things on turn two?

Cutting Spheres seems to me to be the best of your suggestions...but your point about not playing combo very often just doesn't hold up.  See my SCG opponents earlier in this thread, in 8 rounds I played draw7, Salvagers (ok, bad example but he was 5-2 at that point) and dragon twice.  Perhaps in your meta combo doesn't show up much but at major events I would expect to face combo at least 1 round and probably 2 or more.  I realize 50% is just wierd matchups but having your deck auto lose game one to combo seems like a bad plan if you're going to be playing combo more then once a tournament.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if the field at gencon was 20% combo.  In 8-9 rounds that means you're probably going to play them once or twice.  Two match losses=no top 8.  Why place that kind of burden on your chances?  

Also...out of curiosity where do you play that the metagame is dominated by Dragon?  I mean I see it sometimes but Belcher and Storm combo are at least equally common, probably more common.

Hale

[goober]

But um... you don't always play against combo, and the strongest combo deck (Dragon) can work around this easily. The metagame seems to be dominated by Workshop-Aggro, Fish, Hulk, 4-C Control, and Dragon. I don't even play Sphere of Resistance in my sideboard anymore. It's just not effective.

Sphere is good against GAT, Storm based, Belcher, Fish (You get the tempo advantage), FCG (means they can't combo out), plus it can make for easier Crucible locks.  Sphere basicly slows them down while you smash face.  It will take them longer to find answers to your guys, and makes Wish->RnR a lot harder.  Even if it was only good against 2 decks, turning autolosses into even matchups is a good idea.  A lot better than making a good matchup a little better.  Being well rounded is good, scooping to certain matchups is not a good plan.  Like Hale said, if you meet 2 of them you will lose out on top8.  The reason Aggro is generally bad is because 20 life is too much.  The time it takes to deal 20 is large enough that your opponent can find a way to recover, or just win.  Sphere makes it take a lot longer to find that answer.  That makes aggro possible.  Fish uses the tempo of cards like Daze and Spiketail Hatchling, where this uses Sphere.

One of the problems with Lodestone Myr is that I don't find too many things I want to tap down.  Sphere of Resistance, Genesis Chamber, Crucible, and Cranial Plating are the good targets.  That is 14 cards out of 60.  If you go throught the top 20 that means you will get about 4 or 5.  That makes it a 6/6 or 7/7 for 4.  Not bad, but Crusher is far bigger.  4 CC things need to be rare in the deck, because its mana is very heavily used, and putting 4 into something without being as good as Crusher is a problem.  Skullclamping things every turn then playing the stuff relies on low CC spells.  Crusher gets around that by being huge and destruction proof (sorta).

Metalworker does nothing for the deck, because it can empty its hand out by turn 2 anyways, so what advantage is there to adding him?  I know he is nice when you draw 4 or more a turn with Skullclamp, but if you are doing that isn't the game over?  You will dump your origonal hand out all the time, and Metalworker will be only good when you have massive card draw.  Which means when you are losing he is bad, and when you are winning he is good.  That kind of card has no place in a deck.

Drawing out FoW is nice, but not needed.  This can lay 3 or 4 threats which makes FoW not too scary.  It basicly turns FoW into a pitch Time Walk.  Instead of going Workshop->Metalworker, just drop your hand and maybe get one of them countered.

Ravager is not good enough for this deck.  I tested replacing Ornithopter with him, and it slowed it down a turn.  He doesn't help Skullclamp, because you shouldn't be sacrificing things that don't die to -1/-1.  Losing Frogmites and Ornithopters isn't actually as nice as it sounds.  Plus it only acts and Cranial Plating 5-8 if you are willing to go down to just him.  While he is good, and I would like to add him, there is nothing he can replace.  Sphere is too important to the Combo matchup, and it is a nice tempo lead which is so important for this deck.

[Zelyon]

i know that you already ruled out a splash. it seems to me though that if you did consider a splash, berserk would be a very strong candidate. it's basically an instant win card as either cranial plating or ravager can easily reach 9-10 toughness turn two or three at the latest.

[Frappie]

I beleived that the reason that bah-zerk is not in here is the inconsistency of playing it. You would first have to figure out what needs to be removed for it, then you need to figure out how the mana sources should be rearranged to compensate for the additional color. As a side note Berserk sucks in FCG.
About ornithopter vs. ravager: After watching a few games and playing against the deck with the old SCG build, I completely agree that orn is better then ravager.

[Purple Hat]

Why would I play berserk?  It just about epitomizes the concept of the Win-more card in this deck.

once again the splash options, and I think they all significantly weaken the deck, are:

Red: welder, R+R for the workshop mirror, REB
Blue: Tinker, ancestral, time walk
Black: instant equip on plating, demonic tutor, Chains of mephistopoles, yawg win.

White and Green don't have ANYTHING to offer this deck.

Hale

[TrixR4Kidz]

Basically the way this deck works is, win fast, or don't win... the deck needs a broken workshop hand to be productive (aka your test hands), it has no ways to deal with anything, and it gets domolished by something like energy flux....

It needs more disruption or something to be able to handle things.... I would definately cut memory jar, it's not that good in this deck, The deck desperately needs card drawing, and should splash blue for thirsts and tinker.... cut jar since welders are absent, The deck runs like the same concept as suicide black right now that is.... I think the deck has really good potential to be great, right now it's so-so, so my opinion, thirsts...tinker....and the deck gets alot better...maybe a few more odds and ends...skullclamp as a draw engine is a little sketchy and is vunerable to nullrodddddddddddddddddd

[policehq]

White and Green don't have ANYTHING to offer this deck.

Crop Rotation is actually very good in the deck, but since it's restricted, it's hard to bother. The strongest splash is red for permanent removal. I've lost too many games to a Tinkered/Weldered Platinum Angel. Fire is also brilliant against opposing Goblin Welders if you have artifacts (Black Lotus, killed creature, etc.) in the graveyard.

Also...out of curiosity where do you play that the metagame is dominated by Dragon? I mean I see it sometimes but Belcher and Storm combo are at least equally common, probably more common.

Before I even begin to answer, look at your tournament report again. You said so yourself: two combo decks and two Dragon decks.

I say that Dragon is the strongest combo deck because it packs more disruption than Belcher and it does not rely on what cards you draw through Skullclamp/Draw-7s or how far down your land is. When I was testing the deck above against Belcher, he went off on turns 1 and 2 twice with a Tropical Island 10-17 cards down (2-land Belcher, obviously). There were four games where my friend simply didn't draw into the mana or a Belcher. So out of ten games, six were lost purely on bad luck. Draw-7 storm, in my opinion, is pretty dead because of so much hate. It depends on a lot of luck anyway.

Furthermore, Dragon can be made competitive, with turn 1 and 2 kills, on a budget, so that makes it more common in sanctioned tournaments. I'm not saying that everyone should prepare for a budget metagame, but that fact does make me see Dragon more frequently than other combo decks.

Ravager is not good enough for this deck. I tested replacing Ornithopter with him, and it slowed it down a turn. He doesn't help Skullclamp, because you shouldn't be sacrificing things that don't die to -1/-1. Losing Frogmites and Ornithopters isn't actually as nice as it sounds. Plus it only acts and Cranial Plating 5-8 if you are willing to go down to just him. While he is good, and I would like to add him, there is nothing he can replace.

Slowed the deck down a turn? So you are winning on turns two and three consistently with Ornithopters (which REQUIRE Cranial Plating to be a threat)? I'm consistently beating, even without a first turn Metalworker, the opponent well below twenty life by turns three and four. Usually, if I play a Metalworker over an Arcbound Crusher on turn one, my kill is one turn slower (because of all the setup involved), but Metalworker puts more threats on the table, making the kill harder to avoid.

I still hold to the fact that trample is infinitely more important than flying (I'll happily run over a Tog or Dryad, and 7/10 split, in testing, is no threat to this deck at all), and obviously trample is more important than a Frogmite or a Myr Enforcer when they have chump blockers. This is when Arcbound Ravager and Skullclamp become very important, to boost your Lodestone Myr (artifacts can be tapped before being sacrificed) or draw into more artifacts to play for your Crusher.

Playing Lodestone Myr AND Arcbound Crusher is very important for the deck's consistency. Your deck is relying on early Arcbound Crusher and/or Cranial Plating, and I am essentially playing eight "copies" of those cards instead of four. Also, you all have conceded that the hand is dumped out by turns two and three, so if you topdeck an Arcbound Crusher after that, he's going to be growing very slowly, but if you topdeck a Lodestone Myr, he will be as big as the crusher would've been if played on the first turn.

Our lower curve allows us to cast everything without a metalworker, so in games where you don't draw one early, or it doesn't resolve we would not be hampered by that problem. While I believe in counter bating I don't believe you should play a 4 of in your maindeck just for that purpose.

I might come around, eventually, to conceding that Metalworkers don't need to be in the deck. Right now they are in the deck because it puts the opponent in a position where they have to deal with the Metalworker or lose fast. If they deal with the Metalworker, they have lost their ability to deal with an Arcbound Crusher or Lodestone Myr (most likely). In a deck with little draw and no tutoring, you want your opening hand to be as good as it possibly can be. My deck has four copies of Cranial Plating, Arcbound Ravager, Lodestone Myr, Arcbound Crusher, and Metalworker, all of which essentially win the game played on turn one.

If I am going to be playing a card to bait a counter, I'm going to play four of it, because it increases the chances of having it in my opening hand. That seems like a basic rule.

As an aside, Metalworker is never a dead draw since he pumps crusher and can be played easily with the abundance of mana. Plus since I am running Arcbound Ravagers with my Skullclamps, he can end up adding two counters and drawing two cards.

I don't know how many copies of Crucible of Worlds you're running now, but I switch occasionally between three and four, which makes Mishra's Factory a really dead draw. I'd rather be playing a Wasteland from the graveyard in nearly all circumstances. Since Crucible of Worlds/Strip effects are my only form of disruption, it's very important to capitalize on it.

I don't know; I think we just have different decks with different strategies that kill the opponent in a similar way. I've tested all the options you have provided, and many others (including versions that had splashes of different colors), and it seems you have tested the things in my deck, and somehow we've both reached our decks' peak while disagreeing on card choices.

Barry

EDIT: Have you guys tested Karn, Silver Golem with any success in addition to recurring Strips and Sphere of Resistance? I think Karn taking down all of their mana-producing artifacts would seal the lock while you are beating them down. Judging by your distaste for Lodestone Myr, though, I imagine he is a bit outside of your mana curve.

[goober]

Slowed the deck down a turn? So you are winning on turns two and three consistently with Ornithopters (which REQUIRE Cranial Plating to be a threat)?

Yes, yes I am.  They also work with Chamber and Crusher to give him +2/+2 as well as a 1/1, and then draw 2 cards usually.

Usually, if I play a Metalworker over an Arcbound Crusher on turn one, my kill is one turn slower (because of all the setup involved), but Metalworker puts more threats on the table, making the kill harder to avoid.

That is why this build is better, it puts out as many threats, AND it doesn't take the turn setup.  It has the advantages of not playing a Metalworker, with the advantages of playing it.  Test it out.

I'll happily run over a Tog or Dryad, and 7/10

You realize that if you flew over them your opponent is dead, dealing 10 or so more dmaage is usually good.

Also, you all have conceded that the hand is dumped out by turns two and three, so if you topdeck an Arcbound Crusher after that, he's going to be growing very slowly

I wouldn't call it conceeding, because that implies that it is bad.  If you topdeck a Crusher he will grow slowly assuming you don't have Skullclamp or Jar to help it along, which happens very often.

if you topdeck a Lodestone Myr, he will be as big as the crusher would've been if played on the first turn.

If you are willing to have him attack alone, and not use mana.  Which is a bad idea.  Crusher gets 1/1 for all of them, and your opponent's.  Lodestone only gets them from those 14 I said.

Right now they are in the deck because it puts the opponent in a position where they have to deal with the Metalworker or lose fast.

Take them out, and you will see they are in the same position, but don't get the option of dealing with it through answering the Metalworker.  Also Metalworker makes you more Null Rod vulnerable, which is a factor with all the Fish (despite owning Fish anyways).

I don't know; I think we just have different decks with different strategies that kill the opponent in a similar way. I've tested all the options you have provided, and many others (including versions that had splashes of different colors), and it seems you have tested the things in my deck, and somehow we've both reached our decks' peak while disagreeing on card choices.

There definitly is only one best version of these, and through my testing I definitly feel it is this one.  One of these is suboptimal, by definition.

[Colossus]

On another topic related to this deck: Have you considered Jester's Cap for the sideboard?
If it goes off a combo deck is pretty close to having to scoop.

[Purple Hat]

TrixR4Kidz wrote:

should splash blue for thirsts and tinker.... cut jar since welders are absent

Ok, first of all I'd like to say that I try to refute everyone's posts logically and respectfully, and I try to reply to every post in this thread as soon as I can, but I honestly have no idea What you are talking about here.

You want to play thirst and tinker without jar and welders?  The main reason people play TFK is so that they can discard theats and then weld them into play.  That's what makes TFK so good.  If you cut the welders it's just an inefficient draw spell.  You're much better off going for the draw 7 plan at that point and adding timetwister and windfall.  They net you 6-7 new cards rather then 1-2.  I wouldn't play any of these anyway though.  With the exeption of twister all they do is supply fuel for opposing welders.  Tinker would almost always go for jar in this deck.  You're right about not playing many tools.  This deck gets around that by playing redundant threats instead.

skullclamp as a draw engine is a little sketchy and is vunerable to nullrodddddddddddddddddd

This deck eats fish anyway.  It isn't reliant on skullclamp and puts out too many big creatures for fish to deal with.  The deck gets much weaker vs nullrod if you start splashing colors.  The first energy flux isn't such a big problem...it's the second one that kills this deck.

Here...have a broken non workshop hand, from real testing for the mirror last night:

I'm on the play
I mulligan twice into: mox, Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Memory Jar.
Turn 1: play crypt, tap, sol ring, mana vault, tap, memory jar, mox, pass

Jaris didn't mulligan
Jaris's turn one:Mishra's factory, mox, mox, animate factory, play genesis chamber, frogmite, frogmite, myr enforcer, myr enforcer.

(for those of you keeping track at home that's 18 power on turn one without a workshop, crusher or plating)

My turn two: durring my upkeep I blow the jar: Land, Mox, Crusher, Froggy, thopter, Enforcer, mox, sphere.  I play the Crusher (2/2), thopter (4/4), froggy (6/6), enforcer (8/8), mox (9/9), sphere (10/10), drop the land and go to pass the turn...then jaris scoops.

That whole game was played without a single workshop being tapped...both of those hands were broken, non-workshop hands.  This deck has them, and it has them a lot.  I wouldn't play the deck if it couldn't be played without a workshop on the table.  This is a huge part of the reason that we play the affinity guys instead of Juggys and Trisk.

I'd really like it if people would at least go on Workstation or Apprentice and just try the deck for 5 or 10 quick goldfishes.  Everything in it is synergistic with just about everything else.  We know it plays wierd...it especially mulligans strangely, but it really does do the things we say it does consistently in tournament play.  I've played vairous versions of this deck virtually exclusively since Origins.  Jaris doesn't have power or workshops so he has to play other things in tournaments, but outside of that he's been working on this damn hard too.  That's more then a month of intensive testing on this deck.  We've played several thousand games with this deck...It does what we say it does.  Do we think it can be improved? Hell yes.  Do we think that reading the list and suggesting things without a basic understanding of how this deck works or theory to support your claims will do that? Not likely.

EDIT:

Have you considered Jester's Cap for the sideboard

 Jester's cap 4L...I keep suggesting it but Jaris is keeping us cap men down.  

[rozetta]

@Sphere of Resistance: I, too, thought the Sphere was a bit random in this deck. However, if you think about it, it's only about as random as the Null Rods in fish, and everyone worries about them (and they only normally run 3 in the main deck). I think goober made a very good point about the spheres.

@Jester's Cap: As much as I love this card (and I have 4 IA caps), I'd think it's just too slow versus combo. You're going to be lucky to play it turn 1 and activate it turn 2, and then it's dependent on the opponent not having drawn one of their win conditions.

@Metalworker: I think the biggest reason for not running Metalworker is the fact that early game, workshops are precious. If you bait a FoW going turn 1 Workshop, Metalworker, then they strip your Workshop, where are you? Often up shit creek without a paddle. I think that scenario alone (and let's face it, it's not uncommon) is enough to make me not want to run them.

@Splash options: I think that, although splashing a colour gives this deck outs (especially versus something like Platinum Angel), it will dilute the artifact count and therefore the potency of Cranial Plate and Arcbound Crusher. I'd venture to say that green has one splash possibility in Artifact Mutation, since it's a catch-all for things like Trinisphere, Crucible and Null Rod, and can be used on a Myr Enforcer EOT or in response to removal for 7 tokens to either provide skullclamp fodder or a large attacking force (or both). This requires also a red splash, and at that point, you might as well run 4 CoB, 4 Gemstone Mine and have access to Ancestral, Time Walk, Yawgwill, etc. But honestly, what would you cut apart from Spheres of Resistance to fit all these tricks in?

[Unearthly]

I was discussing mono brown answers to Platinum Angel with Purple Hat earlier.  There is always duplicant.  He may cost 6 mana, but killing platinum angel is best when they are at negative life, so 6 mana should not be hard to achieve.  He is also extremely good against other workshop aggro (copying a juggernaut or possibly a TITAN can be big) so I think he definately deserves a spot in the sideboard.

-Edit- Meant sideboard, said deck.

[policehq]

Are Mishra's Factories strictly better than Blinkmoth Nexus in the builds that you are playing? I feel like Blinkmoth Nexus would become Ornithopters 5-8 and still have the benefits with Crucible of Worlds and Cranial Plating, since it, too, becomes an artifact creature. Have you done any testing with it over Mishra's Factory?

Barry

EDIT: I've been testing with them in my deck, and I found that it's a nice engine when Crucible of Worlds and Skullclamp are in play (though mana intensive).

[Purple Hat]

hmm, the nexus is interesting...I'll have to test that.  Thanx for the suggestion.

@jester's cap: Yeah, I know it's too slow...it's just such a cool card though...hmmm, I should build a casual deck that decks people with recuring jester's caps...that'd be awesome.

Hale

[Nibble]

I've only done a little goldfishing with this deck, but I figured I'd share some of my experiences/questions/etc.

I definitely think the Factories could be Blinkmoths. More often than not, I'm using them just for mana, in which case there's no difference.. but in situations where I need the creature, I think evasion > 1 extra damage almost all the time. It's arguable which is better on defense, as the Factory has a bigger body and requires no mana to pump, whereas the Nexus blocks fliers, probably most useful against Fishy things.

I was trying to figure out a way to sneak Genesis Chamber 4 in, but pretty much anything I'd want to cut is a painful choice. Plating is too powerful to lose one of, Skullclamp is often undesirable in multiples (especially more than 2), but being your only draw besides Jar, you want to see one asap. Jar is sometimes tough to cast and seems randomish, but you can do crazy things with it, so it stays. Two Crucibles seems absolutely perfect; useless in multiples, and you don't want to see them all the time, but if your opening hand has Workshop, Crucible, Strip/Waste, it's just mean. The creature base is pretty much untouchable, as well. If anything, I guess, maybe move Sphere #4 to sb and add Chamber #4 md, although this leaves you more vulnerable game 1 vs. combo. I'll try testing it this way, though.. it seems worth it, because Chamber is just so absolutely synergistic with the deck, I don't see how less than 4 is optimal.

As for sb tech, the thought of Welders being a problem made me think to Damping Matrix, which is many decks' answer to them, but that shuts down 9 of your most important cards, so definitely a no-go. But how about Cursed Totem? For 1 less, you shut down Welders, Togs, Karns, Lavamancers, Hatchlings, Aquamoebas, Mongrels, Laquatus, Queen, and whatever else is out there just as well as Matrix, but without crippling yourself - in fact, the only thing you lose is being able to have an animated Factory/Nexus pump itself. It doesn't offer the protection against Slaver that Matrix does, but that's a small price to pay for keeping your Jar, Platings, and Clamps up and running. I think it could probably replace the Crypts in the board, as it's used in the same two matchups (vs. Welders & Dragon), but it's possibly superior in those matches and more generally useful.

[Colossus]

Jester's Cap:  I played a mono brown deck that sideboarded this card, but at the time in the metagame it was about 85% Psychatog decks, not Gro-a-tog, just psychoatogs, and they almost universally ran 3, not 4 psychatogs.  Also, doesn't 4 color control run 2 angels and a 2 decrees?  Knocking out three of their 4 threats might be worth it, dunno though it may just be too slow.

Duplicant: Duplicant is amazing.  I use him in welder decks all the time because he just takes out creatures left and right, if what you're worried about is a big threat he's great.

Maybe another SB card could be Masticore?  Again he can remove pesky creatures that NEED to be removed.

[rozetta]

I came up with a rather nice blue-splash version of this, but it differs quite considerably and might almost be considered straight affinity, since it doesn't include the crushers. I posted the list in the affinity thread here:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=309610#309610

Splashing a colour basically really forces you to remove a lot of the disruption elements. However, it creates a speedier aggro deck. I haven't had time to figure out which strategy is better overall, though, and I suppose it depends on how much combo your metagame includes.

[Purple Hat]

I have a hard time believing that that list is much faster than mine, and it gives up all the disruptive elements.  It might have a better late game except for the fact that it doesn't have any disruption.

Hale

[rozetta]

Exactly. I agree that disruption > speed unless you're talking straight combo. Granted, Crucible/Strip is too slow to beat combo, but Sphere shores up that problem. Crucible/Strip, however, gives your deck game versus control in the same way that multiple Thoughtcasts, etc. do in the splash version (a way of pushing through the counter wall and overwhelming the opponent). It seems that things are rapidly coming down to either:
a) Run Crucible/Strip
b) Be fast enough to not worry about it (but probably lose to Trinisphere)

Although the blue splash version is capable of flashy plays, it's probably going to lose more games in the long run for missing those disruption elements. Besides, you can win the odd game versus control with a resolved turn 1 Workshop->Crucible followed by a wasteland on turn 2.

Anyways, my cards finally arrived this morning so I will put your current build together and give it some real-life testing pretty soon and let you know.

[JDawg13]

Lately, I've noticed that our deck as it stands now has a key flaw, and that is that it auto-loses to Platinum Angel.  Now, the only decks that really run her are Control Slavery and, possibly, Meandeck's Titan deck; however, auto-losses are not something Hale and I cannot accept, especially at a tournament such as GenCon where you have the possibility of playing against anything at any time.  

Henceforth, I'm tinkering around with ways to deal with the Angel if and when it hits play.  The best way I've found so far is Duplicant.  In this way, we have a solution to Platinum Angel, Exalted Angel, Sundering Titan and Darksteel Colossus all in one card.  

The problem I have with adding a card of this nature is the fact that the maindeck is so tight already.  At least two copies are necessary for seeing it with relative frequency, so something has to go.  The choices I've come up with are:

-2 Crucible of Worlds
+2 Duplicant

Losing the two Crucibles keeps the rest of the deck otherwise untouched, which is definitely a plus.  Additionally, this is an aggro deck, so the 2 Crucibles may not be 100% necessary; however, the possibility of outright winning the game with Crucible + Wasteland is something I'd be hardpressed to give up.

or

-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Skullclamp
+2 Duplicant

This change leaves one Crucible in place to ensure we still have a lock component in place and leaves the possibility of adding in more post-sideboard.  Also, it cuts the number of Skullclamps down to three, which is a change I've been considering making for some time now.  It is at it's very best when combined with Genesis Chamber and is good, at best, the rest of the time.  Seeing as Genesis Chamber is still only a 3-of at the moment, I wouldn't terribly mind seeing a Skullclamp go.

At this time, I would probably go with the second of these two choices, and I will be testing extensively to determine which is actually better.  Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

[Tobi]

Duplicant is a good choice, as it is also a solution for Goblin Welder or other creatures, that may cause problems (Viashino Heretic, Gorilla Shaman).

As you may not really need him in every matchup (though it is never a dead card) you may place it in the sideboard, so you don't need to change the main-setup.

The Crucibles are a bit strange in this deck. Of course they are great if you have a strip, and they stabilize the manabase. But sometimes they should just be creatures (Arcbound Ravager) to feed the kill. I am still unsure about these.

Cutting one Skullclamp may seem ok, but it means cutting one part of your draw engine. The possibility of having 2 Skullclamps to draw cards off your Thopter or Frogmite will be lower, as well as having a Skullclamp when you have Genesis Chamber in play. I think that cutting an other redundant card is better, since your draw engine is still ok. Sphere of Resistance or Cranial Plating come to mind.