fish/r how many lands to run?

[effang]

Hi. I have been "successfully" piloting fish in multiple tournaments. it runs great, however I can never manage to run any main fire/ice removal, or an additional free counter which i would love to add. I know PTW runs 24 lands/mana sources...always (?), however I have noticed many successful builds that run 23, or even 22 mana sources. I was wondering if anybody has done testing on the optimal number of mana sources and which mana source they have been cutting. Fish is so light on the mana curve that 24 "seems" like it would be too much, but considering more than 1/2 of the mana base is colorless + fetch, it also seems dangerous to run less than 24 mana sources.  Also, what would you cut? I only run 4 fetch, so if I were to cut to 23 sources, I could only cut an island, but I have seen people running 5 fetch also cutting island, doesn't this create a dangerous situation of permanent mana sources?

my deck list:
beats (15)
1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Voidmage Prod
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Cloud of Faeries

draw 10
4 Curiosity
4 Standstill
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk

control 12
3 Null Rod
4 Force of Will
2 Daze              
2 stifle
1 Misdirection

mana (24):
1 strip
1 LoA
1 black lotus
2 faerie conclave
3 island
4 waste
4 blue fetch
4 volcanic
4 mishra's factory

total 61

Sideboard
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Fire / Ice
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 sigil of sleep
2 sword of fire/ice
1 Stifle
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Null Rod
1 Crucible of Worlds

as you can see, i already run 61 cards in the main. i don't really know where i can cut anything. i can't cut a fetch, because my board is so red heavy. the only thing i can think of is to cut a mishra's. but i don't know...

[Pest]

maybe if you posted a list, then I could help you on what to cut and what kind of manabase to play, but w/o a list it's hard to tell. I also think that 24 is the way to go in any fish build.

[Jacob Orlove]

Simple question; moved to newbie.

[M.Solymossy]

i am fiddling with fish for a tournament this comming sunday...


my mana base seams to be alright some times, but i'm still gunna add 3 basic's.

my mana base:
4 mishra's factory
2 faerie conclave
3 volcanic island
3 flooded strand
4 wasteland
1 strip
3 basic island

[orgcandman]

my suggestion, although it may seem crazy,
-2 VMP
+1 mountain

edit:
Sorry, my boss walked by before I could finish. I'll explain.
Voidmage prodigy is only good as a turn 4 counterspell. However,
with the way fish is supposed to be run, you'll frequently tap out, and
VMP will just be dead weight, if you can call a 2/1 that sacs for counter
dead weight. However, think about it, under standstill you can't cast him
and really, he isn't missed when you remove him.
The mountain increases your resiliancy to strip effects, and makes it easier to play under standstill.

[Rainula]

After playing fish for quite a while now, I think that 24 mana sources is the right number, especially with color restraints the way they are.  I've been toying with a lotus instead of the sapphire because it produces red and is a bit of a boost, but that subject has already been killed in other threads.  

As far as voidmage goes, I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Although it is not the mvp of the creatures, it is one of the only forceful lategame drops that fish runs.  It's countering affect is virtually uncounterable save stifle and adds even more usefullness to an extra lavamancer in play.  Having multiple lavamancers is good only for a short amount of time.  If they don't finish an opponent off they can be used for voidmage food which improves thier versatility as well.  Basically, Voidmage is good and the two of them should stay; if you plan on cutting something  for land, try and look elsewhere.