Yet another fish variant. / Is wtf/r really optimal?

[Zelyon]

Many of you seem to be advocating MD oxidize primarily as a way of dealing with Crucible of Worlds.

But as has been said in the past, the best solution to a Crucible is to run one of your own.

I've tested Crucible in this deck and it's an extremely strong card. I would prefer to run it over Oxidize maindeck atleast since it not only deals with opposing Crucibles but is such a bomb against everything, not just Workshop decks and is NEVER dead whether recurring wastelands, fetchlands, or factories.

I've had trobule finding room for it, but if need be, I would be willing to cut a Daze (or Cloud of Faries) and a Dryad to squeeze in 2 crucibles. It might be wise to cut a Cloud of Faries over a Daze since Crucible makes Daze that much more powerful.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Gay/r and WTF/r both have trouble with Crucible, if it resolves,

Every deck in the format but pure combo has trouble with a resolved crucible.

Many of you seem to be advocating MD oxidize primarily as a way of dealing with Crucible of Worlds.

Cruicible is just one of the mana things it deals with, and is a good example because it is a troublesome card that is quite scary without some sort of maindeck removal for it.  It kills random artifact fatties, and all of the stuff without activated abilities that rod cannot shut down.  Cruicle will not answer a gigANTIC beatstick ie 7/10, pentavus, etc.

As I said I am not opposed to 1-2 COWs in fish, however I think that removing creatures for them is a bad idea.  I would probably run 1 in a daze/stifle/mis-d slot.

[TheIneffable]

@Gandalf: I'm trying to point out that the advantage that WTF/r posseses when dealing with a CoW on the table isn't much of an advantage, it is still a serious threat that even the third color can't really help as much as would be liked.

Oxidizing a CoW after a few turns is only really helpful if they don't have a strip effect. Even then it helps them get the lands they'd had stripped and lets them pick and choose which they want to keep.

The cost of CoW isn't a problem for Prison, which is quite prominent in my meta, whereas for 4cc it is an investment, for Stax it isn't so bad. And every Stax deck here runs Blood Moon in their board, that card is just such a bomb versus so many decks.

IMO, an Island needs to be played in this deck as Jacob Orlove said, maybe my meta is a bit extreme, but I can't imagine this being a deck that is supposed to deal with random aggro decks such as RG Beatz and Sligh that can still wreck you when they side in Blood Moon.

[wuaffiliate]

I obviously haven't tested this deck at all.

So how can you even comment on how a splash helps with crucible, if you have not tested that aspect. How can you even comment in the difference without knowing anything about one side of the equation?

I have infact tested this quite abit, and i can say with confidence that this deck can infact deal with crucible(and workshop.dec as a whole) much more effectively than the Ur version can.

[ChrisTJs27]

I tested this version of Fish against workshop.dec heavily and had absolutely no trouble against them with out CoW main. I sideboard one instead. However, whenever I cast it, I was never unimpressed or wished it was something else.

I'm actually beginning to think that it may be important to have on main deck in this version (especially with out a random Island) not only to abuse the hell out of the deck's disruption, but to attempt to counter your opponent's own disruption. This version of Fish really doesn't want to see a lot of strip effects coming from the other side of the table.

[Zelyon]

I'm very happy to hear that. I didn't find workshop too hard a matchup either. But there are a few variants, workshop aggro, that can be a pain if you don't have an early dryad to deal with them. But an early dryad wrecks that strategy. This is why I never bothered to maindeck Oxidize and only play 3-4 antiartifact cards in the sideboard.

Specifically what workshop variants have you played against? And what's your build like? Is it identical to the one I use (found in the original post) or does it MD oxidize and play more antiartifact spells sideboard.

[wuaffiliate]

Dryad wont be much of a problem for titans, but Boa on the other hand is a tank.

Dryad is not nearly enough to stop artifact aggro, you have very few turns to make a big dryad, and with their 3spheres/CoW you will not have much time to stabalize. You will not make a large dryad with no mana, or only being able to cast one spell per turn. If you somehow get a large dryad, they can just wait for another titan to come down, you dont have that luxury because you didnt think enough to maidneck oxidize, so you have no options since you let CoW destroy your mana.

[TheIneffable]

Mainly, I see Stax. Playing Crucible main actually gave me an out. Basically when they only had one Workshop and both CoW and Trinisphere, they would be forced to lead with CoW so that they wouldn't get locked under their own Sphere if I had a strip effect. This gave me a turn to Oxidize the CoW.

In the end I felt this matchup went the same as before when I tried pure UR. Was I able to Daze or FoW the spell that broke me? And did I get Curiosity to help and stop him from grinding me under with Smokestack? I felt that adding green it was still the same. Although, I have not tried it post-board with Artifact Mutation, nor I have I tried to use Energy Flux, both of which I believe can improve this matchup significantly.

[ChrisTJs27]

I was testing against a fairly standard version of Stax with no CoW's of their own.

Essentually, the Wastelands and Null Rods are what really did them in. I have main deck Oxidize myself and was never unhappy to draw it against them, but it may be to much.

I also have River Boa over Dryad. I really find that I simply am not explosive enough to grow the Dryad quickly and the perpetual blocker has been invaluable. I just don't think this deck keeps the cards coming fast enough nor does it have enough cantrips, etc. to make it really ugly really quickly like Gro can. And I haven't found myself in a situation (except against Goblins, which is a terrible match up) where I want or even need a big guy.

This is my current build + sideboard:

3 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 LoA
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
=24
(I'd really like to fit another dual land or preferably a random Island.)
1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Serendib Efreet
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 River Boa
=15
4 Force of Will
1 MisD.
1 Stifle
1 Time Walk
2 Oxidize
3 Null Rod
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Curiosity

Board:
3 Artifact Mutation
3 REB
2 BEB
2 Fire/Ice
2 Maze of Ith
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 MisD.
1 Stifle

First, I haven't been disappointed with Serendib Efreet. I really like having the four in the butt and the fact that he's blue. The one point of damage per turn hasn't really effected any match ups negatively except the Goblin match up and even then, I'm usually dead the turn after I cast him anyway.

I'm thinking that I'd really like to turn those Oxidize's into Fire/Ice. More blue spells to feed Force of Will (I find I have no blue cards in hand a lot with this deck) and a way other than Lavamancer to cut a path for my men to hit. It may be metagame dependant, but worth trying.