[Deck] Control Slaver Revisited.

[Hi-Val]

I'm not discounting Angel, I have it on the board and bring it in against Fish as well. I am just confused by the "Titan gets chumped ALL THE TIME" comments where Angel does as well. Angel can be hard to kill and work around, though the main argument of it being a 4/4 flier seems moot to me in the face of a 7/10 groundpounder, neither with trample.

Post-sideboard both games (the game where this stuff matters) there isn't a huge advantage that Platinum has over Titan other than it flies. I found that having a nigh-unkillable fattie that nails lands is about as good as an Angel. I am just baffled by all the Angel >>>... Titan re: fish talk.

[Squee]

I'd like to touch on a few key points you are all making about Plats vs. Titan in the fish matchup.  

First off, both are great in different situations.  An early Titan often ends the game quickly as fish cannot deal with the 7/10 frame, but if it is mid-late game and you are getting beat down Titan isn't nearly as good as Platinum Angel due to it keeping you alive while providing a 4/4 flyer to block/attack with.  

In addition, I do not think Plats can be left out of Control Slaver.  She pulls you out of unwinnable situations and provides assurance against things like Dragon milling you out if you have an active Welder.   Now I can see certain metagames where the Angel might not be very good but knowing it is in the deck to save you as a last resort option is sometimes crucial(i.e. Angel beatdown from 4cControl).  Even so, no matter how sure you are of your own metagame, there is always the chance that someone will play a deck that you didn't expect where not having Platinum Angel is the difference between winning and losing.  

It seems like everyone is now in agreement that Platinum Angel deserves a maindeck slot(except Hi-Val but he has metagame considerations where other cards may fit better).

[The Atog Lord]

Yes, both Angel and Titan can be chumped. However, the difference is that if Titan gets chumped, you get killed. If Angel gets chumped, you still  can buy time to go off.

[Mixing Mike]

She.....provides assurance against things like Dragon milling you out...

Crimson Hellkite/Shivan Hellkite/Vampiric Dragon all beat a Platinum Angel when Dragon's going off.  Well, if they play the red splash that is....

Yes, both Angel and Titan can be chumped. However, the difference is that if Titan gets chumped, you get killed. If Angel gets chumped, you still can buy time to go off.

How do you die when Titan get's chumped?  

I find the diffence being that Angel lets you play until you can answer your opponent while titan just creates a standstill on the board for creatures.  Both give you time, but Titan doesn't let you totally ignore your opponents board position, espically when it's making a Lavamancer a clock.

[EDIT]:  I mean't Titan in general when on the table creates a sort of 'creature standstill'.

I also had to edit my edit because I didn't check if for typos....

[The Atog Lord]

titan just creates a standstill on the board for creatures

Titan does block all of their creatures. Except Conclaves. And Clouds. And also Spiketails and Mancers.

Maybe I'm playing with him incorrectly, but I've found that it is much easier for Fish to handle a Titan than an Angel.

[Toad]

Problem is that if you block a Faerie Conclave with Platinum Angel, you are setting yourself for some Fire/Ice or Grim Lavamancer ownage. Platinum Angel is good against Fish, but is not spectacular. 4-thoughtness is a bit low.

[Meddling Mike]

Problem is that if you block a Faerie Conclave with Platinum Angel, you are setting yourself for some Fire/Ice or Grim Lavamancer ownage. Platinum Angel is good against Fish, but is not spectacular. 4-thoughtness is a bit low.

I think you're missing the point here toad, if you have plats on the board you don't HAVE to block the conclave. In fact, you can just sit there drawing out counters all day for their removal spells and just have them deck themselves.

I would personally bitch slap anybody who would be dumb enough to block a conclave unless their opponent was tapped out, there were no lavamancers on the board and all their 0 cc artifact sources of mana were on the table/graveyard. I suppose I could also see it if you had a fairly hefty life total as well as an active welder, some artifacts and some counters ready to go in case of F/I, but that'd be pretty ballsy.

The point is you don't even have to go aggro with angel, you can afford to just sit there until the combo portion of the deck eventually comes to fruition and you set up a very nasty slaver lock.

100th Post YAY!

[Squee]

Crimson Hellkite/Shivan Hellkite/Vampiric Dragon all beat a Platinum Angel when Dragon's going off. Well, if they play the red splash that is...

I was more thinking that if they milled you out with Laquatus you could weld Plats in on your Upkeep to stay alive.  I have seen some local Dragon builds splashing for Shivan Hellkite but I have never seen Vampiric Dragon or Crimson Hellkire get played.  Back on topic now.  

The point is you don't even have to go aggro with angel, you can afford to just sit there until the combo portion of the deck eventually comes to fruition and you set up a very nasty slaver lock.

The problem with that reasoning is that if Fish gets you below zero life you are just asking for them to F/I/Lavamance it to kill you.  I think you have to look at Plats as a 4/4 flying attacker before a card that buys you enough time to allow you to Slaver lock them.  You're obviously not going to attack stupidly of course(i.e. into Conclave or multiple Hatchlings or something)

Maybe I'm playing with him incorrectly, but I've found that it is much easier for Fish to handle a Titan than an Angel.

I think it all depends at which stage of the game you are in.  Early game Fish cannot handle Titan at all and they will lose to him but once they get to the midgame and drop a few threats he is much easier to deal with.  If fish can get a mana base along with a few threats established then Platinum is better.  Otherwise, their worst guy is chumping every turn while they swing for 3-4 damage which is enough to race titan if they have enough creatures and mana to continually play chump blockers while attacking.

[Toad]

I think you're missing the point here toad, if you have plats on the board you don't HAVE to block the conclave. In fact, you can just sit there drawing out counters all day for their removal spells and just have them deck themselves.

Having them deck themselves? In a 45 or 50 minutes round? Seriously ...
All you'd get is a 0-0.

[Meddling Mike]

Having them deck themselves? In a 45 or 50 minutes round? Seriously ...
All you'd get is a 0-0.

The problem with that reasoning is that if Fish gets you below zero life you are just asking for them to F/I/Lavamance it to kill you. I think you have to look at Plats as a 4/4 flying attacker before a card that buys you enough time to allow you to Slaver lock them. You're obviously not going to attack stupidly of course(i.e. into Conclave or multiple Hatchlings or something)

The point I was trying to make is that their removal for angel is Fire/Ice, lavamancer/artifact removal or some combination of the first two. If your deck packs fire/ice, two lavamancers should never be a problem and the fish lists themselves typically don't run more than 1-2 MD fire/ice. Control Slaver itself runs 8 hard counters and typically removal for mancers, so it's not difficult to keep plats on the board indefinitely. In the mean time, the brokenness of your deck can make itself apparent and you can go to town (typically a yawg will, tinker or slaver lock will wrap things up nicely)[/quote]

[Mixing Mike]

Let's stop bitching about how Platinum Angel beats fish.  It just does.  If you can't see why, then go play test a few games.  This is just becoming pointless bickering.

I think it's time to get back to discussing Control Slaver, and how we can help make it beat fish.

[jazzykat]

titan just creates a standstill on the board for creatures

Maybe I'm playing with him incorrectly, but I've found that it is much easier for Fish to handle a Titan than an Angel.

My experience as well. If they ever get out a curiosity (god forbid) the chances for them to get a chumper every turn goes up a by 100% and they can still use factories as well as conclaves.

With angel you don't care about about your life total, which I think=ultimate tempo because you can swing wildly or wait to get rid of a null rod or whatever (as long as you have some sort of card drawing parity). Granted double lavamancer means that the angel is dead...but...your life total probably won't be in very good shape either if they have double mancer.

I play a trike MD to kill opposing welders and fishy dudes. (Obviously he is stopped by null rod) but he is a 4/4 dull blunt object for 6, that turns sideways.

My new creature config for big artifacts is: Jar, Mindslaver, Titan, Pentabus, Trike and an Angel.  I dropped a mindslaver like everyone else has because a titan or trike is sometimes way better than a mindslaver (ie: playing against aggro (a lot in my meta), or opponents better able to play around a slaver activation).

[ELD]

I think control slaver is really solid right now.  I think the problems people are having running it are due to play errors and not understanding what the deck can really do.  When I read about the deck crapping out 6 6 times in a tournament, there no excuse for that.  I've seen terrible plays from slaver players.  Freaking aweful plays that cost games.  Case in point, what do you do vs FCG dropping a first turn lackey.  You're on the draw and this is your hand.  PM me with your play.  I'll be interested to see what people come up with.  

Yawg will,
Demonic tutor,
Underground Sea,
Brainstorm,
Time Walk,
Brainstorm,
Mox Jet,

(top 4 cards are thirst, emerald, underground, blank)

[ELD]

Well, I got enough responses on this one.  If you don't end up with a pentavus in play before lackey turns sideways, you need some work on your game.  You should also have a mana source untapped when you pass the turn.  This is a very simple example, which I feel illustrates a common mistake people make with slaver.  They try and control aggro decks.  There is no need to do that.  Control Slaver is able to win when it wants.  It can do broken things.  An aggro deck is not going to stop you.  When faced with aggro, your best bet is to beat them.  Don't try and remove threats.  Don't try and out control them.  You either work towards a lock or beat them to death.

[Didor]

Has any of you tried Read the Runes in Control Slaver ? So far, it has been quite useful to me, allowing me to use my drain mana to improve the quality of my hand while dropping some artifacts in the grave, or sacrifying tapped mana vaults or pentavite tokens.

[Mixing Mike]

Read the Runes is -1 net card advantage.  That right there is enough to keep me away from it.

Besides, it's not like the deck needs more ways to pitch stuff.

[ELD]

I run deep analysis and it's been a house.

[Mixing Mike]

Why'd you feel the deck needed more draw Eric?  You even said it yourself, 'the deck can win when it wants'.  I'm very curious as to why you've added it.

As a side note, congrats to Mark B. (Windfall) for taking it home with C.S.  I believe we all owe Rich a big hand as well.  Also, props to all those who've been playing the deck despite all the ridicule it had been seeing.  I think this win will FINALLY get C.S. the respect it deserves.

[ELD]

I run Deep Analysis because it is a perfect fit.  It is easy to cast in this deck, and can bring you back from an unfavorable position.  It gives me a huge edge over other control decks as well.  In the mirror, it is just insane.  It is my maindeck sideboard slot basically.  It used to be Mox Monkey, now deep analysis stops any deck from being an unfavorable match up.

[Windfall]

Respect?  Let them think it sucks... we know secretly (though not so secretly anymore I guess) that it's the best deck evar!

MAD props to Rich for his creation.  I'm very happy to make a name for the deck.

Oh, and by the way, Tinker is one of the most busted cards in the format, and Mystical Tutor is very close behind for this deck.  You can find the list I played in multiple spots.  Notice Mystical Tutor.  Try it.  Win with it.

     ~Mark B.

[bdg4life]

congrats on the win. Look foward to seeing your report

[BreathWeapon]

Mystical Tutor OWNZ, I've had it MD since Day 1, any card that fetches Tinker is broken.

[Zherbus]

Locked...basically because it's stale and nothing of substance is really being posted. Feel free to open another Control Slaver at some point.[/color]