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Author Topic: Can Survival Compete in modern Type 1?  (Read 1660 times)
JAG
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« on: August 10, 2004, 02:28:55 am »

I've always been a huge fan of survival, but since it was banned in extended i've only been able to play it off and on in casual games.  I've recently put together a build of Full English Breakfast that seems to have weapons against the decks in the field (Fish, Workshop, Tog).  However, having little to no knowledge of the metagames makes me wonder if my deck can actually compete with these mainstay decks or whether all i have is a deck for casual games.

Right now i'm trying to prep the deck to play in a 5-Proxy Type 1 event in New Jersey this weekend.  Any comments would be appreciated, but keep in mind that I have access to no power 9 and thus have had to proxy all 5 pieces in this deck.  Any card that is priced above $50 is probably beyond my reach.

Here's the list as it stands right now:

Proxy:
! Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Time Walk

Mana Acceleration:

4 Birds of Paradise
1 Sol Ring

Core:
3 Volrath's Shapeshifter
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Morphling
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Phage the Untouchable
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Flowstone Hellion
3 Eternal Witness
1 Meddling Mage
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Monk Realist
1 Gorilla Shaman

Tutor/Card Draw:
3 Survival of the Fittest
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Living Wish
1 Fact or Fiction

Utility:
2 Force of Will
1 Regrowth
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Land:
4 Tropical Island
4 Bayou
2 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

SB:
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Volrath's Shapeshifter
1 Gigapede
1 Meddling Mage
1 Phage the Untouchable
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Gilded Drake
1 Masticore
2 Naturalize
2 Tsabo's Web
3 Swords to Plowshares

The FTK slot has been changed several times already.  I'm really not sure what targets are going to be most common, so i don't know what would be the optimal kill.  FTK is solid, but Duplicant, Nekrataal, and Dark Hatchling all do similar things at varying costs.  I'm leaning back towards Duplicant (which was in the deck just before FTK) to deal with Exalted Angels, Dreadnoughts, and Sundering Titans.

I don't really know whether or not Meddling Mage is any good, particularly if i don't really know the meta.  I have a good idea of the kinds of decks i'll encounter, but i don't know if this is the kind of card i want to be packing when i don't know the lists card-for-card.

The Swords also seem a bit weak in this meta.  I'm thinking perhaps Fire/Ice to replace them (good vs Fish)?

again, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

-JM
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Marton
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« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2004, 03:38:17 am »

Well, you didn't really explain your card choices and/or changes from an established deck. When posting a decklist try to explain the card choices at a minimum, and if possible write about it's matchups its strengths and weaknesses.

Purposefully not playing cards for budget reasons basically means that the thread should be moved to newbie.

On a different note, the deck seems to lack acceleration. You see, your disruption is extremely minimal (3x strips 2x forces) and you don't pack the acceleration that is supposed to make up for lack of disruption. Birds of paradise is nice, but it's one turn too slow (and majorly sucks vs fire/ice). Most of your spells are relatively costly (since you usually need to add G to survival them) considering the amount of acceleration that you play. If you play on a budget, have a look at lotus petal, mox diamond, elvish spirit guide, etc. To avoid a lengthy list of possible accelerants, have a look at the cards listed under 'mana accelerants' within the thread I started there: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18568.

The other problems of the deck is that it *seems* to be reactive to opponents threats (hence, the whole toolbox that 'makes up for lack of disruption'). But your answers can only be gotten once you have that survival hit play -- and you can barely garantee that it comes into play, even though your deck relies on it. I can see that the eternal witnesses and regrowth are there as a 'fix', but the problem is that they costs you tempo (mana) just to get back to the point you were before. This almost means that you loose 2 turns if your opponent counters it (since you loose the original survival (2 mana), the eternal witness/regrowth (3/2 mana) then recast the survival (another 2 mana). You see, the more cards you add/play to get back on track, the easier you make yourself vulnerable to opponents threats since you need more than one card to potentially set yourself up. Combo deck have the same problem; if the combo take more than 2 cards to win the game, the easier it is for your opponent to break the combo (and I will make a brief mention that dragon 'feels' like you only play one card to actually get the combo).

Instead of trying to make up for lack of disruption by playing that many eternal witness/regrowth, you should consider packing more disruption so that when you play your survivals you don't have to worry as much and go for plan B when plan A fails. I can understand that birds and eternal witness have synergy with survival, but I think the deck needs more a survival than it needs the 'cute' eternal witness. And for the birds, well I assume here that you play them due to budget constraints (and need for 4/5 color mana).

The other problem is that your deck plays many colors. This essentially means it is easier to disrupt and more vulnerable to mana denial. I can see that regrowth/eternal witness can 'fix' this, but really it sounds to me like a loosing strategy. I do not see this deck as being able to become the beatdown, barring a quick shapeshifter. It's like it tries to answer everything the opponent can play (hence, control), while not really being able to efficiently get it's plan undisrupted. Without survival, it looks like the deck is heavily top-deck reliant.

I am sure that there *has* to be a way of making those living wish more efficient. It might be my opinion, but the only 2 things that I was impressed to see in the sidebord was gigapede (good choice vs control) and gilded drake. I can see that survival trumps living wish goal, but then, why not just cut them? Perhaps those 2 spots could be better filled with creatures in the sidebord (since there doesn't seems to have any lands worth mentioning (gemstone mine... why?)).

You run so few artifacts that you could consider running null rod even though it doesn't seems to fit in your plan.

Remember that in today's metagame tempo is king. The way I see it, survival is just a notch too slow (in the general sense, nothing to do with your deck). Survival is generally used to 'preserve'/keep the inertia of a deck, and keep the threats coming. If you are wondering what I'm talking about then have a look at TNT decks. In your case the survival *is* your threat (since otherwise your deck is top-deck reliant).

I know I am harsh, such is my nature. Please tell me I got my whole analysis wrong. There has got to be something that I missed out. Remember that the burden of proof is on your side.

-marton
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Plognark
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« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2004, 07:56:33 am »

Well, for my 2 cents, survival has been great in TnT simply because the deck doesn't rely on it to function. The deck list you've presented is similar to one that a buddy of mine uses in our weekly friday night magic matches. It's a little slow and more reactive than aggressive. A single counterspell that hits the survival means you've lost your main threat.

TnT does well because even if the survival is countered, you can bet that a hard cast juggernaut/su chi or welder (both frequent "must counter" cards) are going to hit the table and put some serious pressure on. Survival is just one of the big scary threats in TnT.

Also, this deck has got barely any blue spells in it....force of will, even if you're only packing two, is simply not going to cut it; no synergy, no pitch cards. Either up the count of blue spells, or drop forces altogether and run duress for disruption.

Null rod is actually not a bad idea, since your artifact count is quite low.
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Monogreen Beatdown 4evar
JAG
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« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2004, 08:50:42 am »

I definitely see that the deck doesn't seem to have enough disruption or acceleration.  The problem is that I didn't see most of the acceleration as being much use.  Survival is the spell we're really trying to accelerate to, so that makes cards like Dark Ritual, Grim Monolith, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, and potentially even Sol Ring essentially useless.  Chrome Mox is a possiblity.  I never thought Lotus Petal is the kind of mana acceleration the deck needs (turn 1 survival can't be backed up by a threat on turn 2), but i can see how it would be helpful.  Mox Diamond seemed hard to run with only 19 lands.

As for disruption, I'm not sure which would be the better route; discard or more counters.  Since I'm using all my mana every turn, and on early turns (hopefully, if i have survival, which is the whole point of the disruption), then the best counters, it seems, would be Force and Daze.  The Witness could be dropped to a utility 1-of for two more forces.  However, i'm having trouble seeing what else to cut for more disruption (particularly if more acceleration is also needed).

I was essentially using Living Wish as a substitute for more Survivals, with only the most basic targets in the board.  Any suggestions for other targets besides Gigapede and Drake?

The Gemstone Mines were just an attempt to get away from using City of Brass.  City is probably better and will likely end up back in the deck.  

sadly enough, Will seems to be grossly underused by this deck.  There's just not really enough in the deck that is abused by Will, particularly if survival makes it into play.  I'm sure it's wrong to cut it, but it just feels like this deck can't use it to its full potential.

is orcish lumberjack really any good?  it's on your list but it really seems janky to me.  I suppose this deck could run it tho.

ok the tentative decklist so far:

Proxy: (I assume the reasons for using these cards are obvious)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Time Walk

Acceleration: (These particular accelerants are used due to a lack of other viable options)
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Sol Ring

Core:
3 Volrath's Shapeshifter (the card usually used to kill someone with)
1 Morphling (an alternative kill, plus good shifter target)
1 Squee (obviously great in a survival deck)
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Flowstone Hellion (This plus dreadnought is the classic kill combo with shifter)
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath (a large evasive trampler to get Phage through)
1 Phage the Untouchable (the new kill with any trampler or evasive creature)

Toolbox:
1 Monk Realist (enchantment threats)
1 Gorilla Shaman (cheap artifact threats)
1 Viridian Shaman (large artifact threats)
1 Flametongue Kavu (mid-size creatures)
1 Eternal Witness (catch-all)

Utility:
1 Regrowth
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Living Wish (Survival 4 and 5.  Would a 4th survival just be better?)
1 Recurring Nightmare (alternate threat; recurring Akroma or Morphling seems a potential alternate win condition)

Tutors:
3 Survival of the Fittest (the core of the deck)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction (strong card drawing)

Disruption:
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
2 Wasteland (is this an acceptable Wish target?)
1 Strip Mine

Lands:
2 City of Brass
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
4 Bayou

The SB has no changes so far.

I'm still stumped on what to cut for needed elements.  It really feels like the deck may be too short on land now.

Enchantment removal doesn't seem to be prevalent much in the current environment.  That seems to indicate that so long as the Survival resolves, it will not be leaving the table often.  Is that accurate?

Thanks for the help, anything else you can suggest would be great.

-JM
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the boogie man
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« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2004, 10:16:11 am »

For the part on the enchantments, I wouldn't completely outrule enchantment destruction, because naturalize is quite prevalent in t1 builds, especially with cunning wish.

As for the living wishes, why not just remove them, add another survival (if its the core of the deck) and add a gigapede main? you can always side it out if you must, and you are going to be discarding anyway.

As for tyhe force of will, adding is a mistake in my opinion. If you do, you will have to up the blue count, and since this deck runs lots of singletons and adding blue means cutting something else, and thats hard to do. It also sucks removing the only copy of [insert rndomn sinlgeton] from the game. I'd have to say to go the duress route, or at least a different counterspell.

I'd run phage maindeck, why would you side her in?

Also, the gigapede might really help so that your creature stays untargettable. With the morphling, you can make yourself untargettable, but they could deal with you in response. They could always do that any way, but that way costs less mana.

Also, do you find that if they destroy your creature or remove you graveyard from the game that you could lose easily? maybe feldons cane would be a good choice. but probably not.

A better choice, i think, would be either ground seal or null rod. by null rod i mean shutting down the tormods crypt. if you add the ground seal, you weouldn't be able to target cards in a graveyard, but you could stop them from destroying your graveyard with targetted removal, and stop welders and stuff

just suggestions.
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Unrestrict: Gush, Flash, Frantic search, fact or fiction (probably), and burning wish if it doesn't suck now.

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Marton
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« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2004, 11:09:25 am »

I would replace the force of will for duress as well. Xantid may work out as well. I think I would remove the regrowth and eternal witness (too mana hungry in my opinion), and the 2 living wish for 1x survival (you really need 4x since you pack virtually no draw card) and the rest being lands/accelerants (perhaps keep one spot for 1x living wish or 1x phage). I would probably try out with 4x birds and 2x llanowar elves (or 2x fyndhorn if you want all black borders Smile ). I am not sure about morphling's greatness, because usually it is a very mana hungry card. If I were playing this I think I would cut it.

I have just noticed that you went down to 17 lands (!). When I said you need mana acceleration, I meant in addition to your lands (or perhaps cut 1/2). I believe the deck needs around another 2 more mana sources (total). I would probably put 1x birds instead of the lotus petal.
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VGB
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« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2004, 11:50:45 am »

Have you ever heard of Vengeur/Ninja Mask?  Those are the best survival based decks extant, although it does require a playset of Masks if you are on a budget.

No sense in reinventing the wheel, imo.
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hillbilly
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« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2004, 02:23:52 pm »

Here is a deck with 5 proxy power in it that might be something that you could consider playing it has more disruption and can combo out quicker and more consistent i would think

17 blue card count can support FOW survival can fetch blue cards as well
unearth is a fun card in this deck and can surprise ppl for fast wins
duress can be played as therapy if you prefer
maybe less birds more ESG would be better
tog can help fix your GY if you run into probs
sideboard can contain the useful utility creatures and brought in when needed

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Unearth

4 Force of Will
4 Duress

4 Volrath's Shapeshifter
1 Gilded Drake
1 Cephalid Inkshrouder
1 Tradewind Rider
1 Psychatog
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Squee, goblin nabob
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
2 Phage, the Untouchable
2 Elvish Spirit Guide

1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Saphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
4 Bayou
2 City of Brass
2 Forest
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