[deck] mono-green survival/crucible

[Timewalker]

Why isn't the wonder in the maindeck? It's in UG madness builds...

[darkmindtone]

To deal with Darksteel Colossus, I can see a single Maze Of Ith being used.  It can be fetched with Crop Rotation/Sylvan Scrying.  The only negative is that it doesn't tap for mana and it can be wasteland/strip mined.

[Hyperion]

To deal with Darksteel Colossus, I can see a single Maze Of Ith being used.  It can be fetched with Crop Rotation/Sylvan Scrying.  The only negative is that it doesn't tap for mana and it can be wasteland/strip mined.

Did you see the Gilded Drake in the G/u version JP just posted?

[MuzzonoAmi]

Why not try out Dawnstrider as an answer to Colossus? It's a nice one-of to Survival for against decks like The Man Show, and it keeps Colossus at bey as long as it takes to find a Drake.

[jpmeyer]

Why isn't the wonder in the maindeck? It's in UG madness builds...

In Madness, you really needed the Wonder because while your creatures probably could win in a fight against other creatures, since your deck didn't have much staying power you needed to end the game as fast as you could.  Here, you can always just grab more creatures with some draw effect.  I have the Wonder in the board here mostly for when I take out either a random single (such as say, Viridian Shaman) against aggro or when I want to board out all my Skullclamps (if they're keeping in or bringing in Null Rods) or Root Mazes.

[JesseRiver]

jp how has your testing been going against the top decks in the field.  I was thinking about using witness in type one for a while now seeing as how good they are with waterfront bouncer and skullclamp.  It is ridiculous that clamp is starting to be played with great effect in all formats.

[pi]

Hi,

with clamp and crucible both in the deck, wouldn't blinkmoth nexus be nice?

bye

pi

[Brutha]

How about Trinket Mage? It can fetch the clamp, Mox or be a +-0 cc creature (with lotus). You do not play a Wirewood Symbiote anyone, Trinket Mage could take that slot.

Why have you cropped the crypt?

[Hyperion]

with clamp and crucible both in the deck, wouldn't blinkmoth nexus be nice?

Do people read any parts of a thread other than the first post anymore? Crucible was dropped from the deck a few days ago.

How about Trinket Mage? It can fetch the clamp, Mox or be a +-0 cc creature (with lotus). You do not play a Wirewood Symbiote anyone, Trinket Mage could take that slot.

Why have you cropped the crypt?

Janky as it is, I actually thought about trying Trinket Mage but didn't because
1) by the time you have 2U you shouldn't need a mana-fixer
2) when you don't have blue (which is a decent amount of the time) it's a dead card in hand

so really the only benefit left is that it can get Skullclamp once you find Survival to tutor for the Trinket Mage,  and have 2U. Which is awfully conditional.

And Mana Crypt went because green is already at a premium, room had to be made for the splash color Mox, and it's the worst of the artifact mana accelerators left.

has your testing been going against the top decks in the field.

Surprisingly well against most decks other than Control Slaver. I've had a lot of troubles against this deck before SB'ing, I really haven't been able to win unless I resolve Root Maze. JP reports favorable results to me but I don't see how that can be, because Welders, Tinker->Platinum Angel or Pentavus do me in just about every time. I usually have to resort to taking their Welders with Gilded Drake to keep them from going off and then when Waterfront Bouncer gets countered I'm up the creek because I can't deal with a 3/3 flier, and then they can buy time to stabilize and find another Welder, Slaver or huge guy to finish me off. Control Slaver has inevitability that the deck can't cope with in its current form before siding in lots of hate. Any suggestions though would be welcomed because I'm hitting a wall right now in this matchup.

Maze is a beating against all the top decks in the format right now and Skullclamp is an incredible engine. The problems with both of these cards are that they impose a lot of constraints in building the deck as well.

-With Root Maze, fetchlands are crappy, and thus building a mana base that can get the splash color reliably without self-destructing under enemy Wastes is challenging. This wasn't an issue with the monogreen build but I don't think green is enough by itself because it can't do anything to the board other than blow up artifacts and lands. It seems like either a blue or red splash is needed.

-With Skullclamp, you can't run Null Rod without compromising your engine, and this is really the best shot at beating Control Slaver in addition to/instead of Root Maze. So I was thinking of Winter Orb but this seems very situationally useful as well.

-With Eternal Witness, it's hard to run Ground Seal because it turns off your own Witnesses.

So those are the issues I've been trying to work on the last couple days - namely, that the best hate that would normally be available to aggro decks (i.e. Null Rod, Ground Seal) isn't as easy to incorporate into this deck.

[JesseRiver]

Well since welder is such a problem you could run BeB in the board, this would also help the goblin and sligh matchups.  As for the skullclamp null rod situation I would side out clamps for rods going first as this stunts their mana enough that you should be able to play some threats and win.

[Alfred]

Could I suggest the little known psychic purge? One blue to kill welders/fish creatures sounds pretty good to me!

[Tainted_Wood]

And psychic purge could be part of your 4 purge, 4 guerilla tactics, 4 chalice boarding strategy against draw 7.  

Or at the very least you could side them in against JP.  

[MrBeichner]

deranged hermit looks like an even better card to consider with the new build.   Hermit + skullclamp = a lot o cards, with some mana and bounce you could take someone out very quickly with him too by swinging with a bunch of 2/2 squirrels.

Spike weaver is a good aggro answer also.  aeolipile is another way to kill welders and other annoying little guys. Although a bit janky, it is easy to recurr and cast / use with witness.

[LoA]

aeolipile is another way to kill welders and other annoying little guys. Although a bit janky, it is easy to recurr and cast / use with witness.

How is this better than BeB for dealing with Welders?

deranged hermit looks like an even better card to consider with the new build. Hermit + skullclamp = a lot o cards, with some mana and bounce you could take someone out very quickly with him too by swinging with a bunch of 2/2 squirrels.

Hermit is 5 mana and doesn't help with some of the problems this deck seems to have with Control Slaver.  Once blue is added, hitting 5 mana is that much more difficult.

As for the deck's Root Maze/mana issues, the always unpopular Land Grant springs to mind.  I haven't played against the G/U version yet (although I imagine I will by Thursday), but it seems to me that the real mana issue will be in games 2 and 3 vs. control decks.  Your opponent will try to counter the Wood Elves and establish an untapped Wasteland asap to deal with any Tropical Island you may play under the Root Maze.

[Hi-Val]

With Hermit you should just turn it into ATS : )

As far as Control Slaver, have you tested Seeds of Innocence? Shatterstorming the field can be pretty effective in dealing with them.

[Hyperion]

Honestly, as far as "tricks" go with the deck even Gilded Drake/Waterfront Bouncer is borderline acceptable. This is Type I after all. Deranged Hermit is terrible.

As for the deck's Root Maze/mana issues, the always unpopular Land Grant springs to mind. I haven't played against the G/U version yet (although I imagine I will by Thursday), but it seems to me that the real mana issue will be in games 2 and 3 vs. control decks. Your opponent will try to counter the Wood Elves and establish an untapped Wasteland asap to deal with any Tropical Island you may play under the Root Maze.

Actually, Land Grant seems like an interesting idea and definitely one that's worth trying. I'm sure it will be better than fetchlands at any rate. I should mention that I cut Wood Elves a little while ago though, Birds of Paradise seems to be a more effective "Survival-able" mana-fixer...not that your point about countering/removing the mana-fixer isn't relevant though.

As far as Control Slaver, have you tested [card]Seeds of Innocence[/card]? Shatterstorming the field can be pretty effective in dealing with them.

Actually no, but only because I'd never heard of the card until now. Also an interesting idea that seems worthy of testing - thanks! And it would be great against Shop decks too, and being able to reuse it over and over again with Eternal Witness is hot.  Although I'm a little more confident in the deck's chances after boarding..it's mainly game 1 that I'm worried about right now. The best new idea I've come up with is by taking a page from mrieff and running a maindeck [card]Serrated Biskelion[/card]...which is... .

[Tobi]

Serrated Biskelion may be too slow. What about [card]Ticking Gnomes[/card]?

[mrieff]

The best new idea I've come up with is by taking a page from mrieff and running a maindeck [card]Serrated Biskelion[/card]...which is... .

Serrated Biskelion For Live Though I'm not sure if its the way to go in this deck. The 3CC is a lot more annoying without shops.

Nice deck though. I see a lot of people suggesting creatures (and a land), which are usefull in specific cases but not generic enough to maindeck. Therefore, I was thinking whether a Living Wish element would make sense in this deck? That would most likely mean that you have to replace the spirit guides with Birds or Llanowar Elves.

[policehq]

I had a type 2 deck that was similar to this except that I used Aether Vial so I could recur Viridian Shaman/Wood Elves during mine and my opponent's turn. Could it be a possibility in this deck as well? This mostly pertains to those that are still using Wirewood Symbiote instead of Waterfront Bouncer.

Barry

[Caelestis]

Those are more based on Beacon of Creation, if I recall correctly, there are too many differences between the two decks to compare them like this.

[kirdape3]

Please tell me we're not doing Elf and Nail in Type 1.

[MrBeichner]

Another point of contention right now is Wood Elves vs. Yavimaya Elder. We're not sure which one is better yet.

for what it's worth  my vote is with wood elves,  they get you an extra land on the board and feed nicely to the clamps.   The elder by himself is a far better card but doesnt ramp you up as quickly and "this is type one afterall "  :lol:

Quote:

aeolipile is another way to kill welders and other annoying little guys. Although a bit janky, it is easy to recurr and cast / use with witness.
 

How is this better than BeB for dealing with Welders?

Obviously it is not, just more flexible and able to kill non red creatures like factories, conclaves, small curiousitied creatures  etc.   There are of course other cards like the above mentioned ticking gnome that do the same for the same mana (3) and are survivalable.   With green and blue there just aren't that many efficient non counter options.   A creature solution is probably a better answer though since there is search and more recursion in the deck for them.

Honestly, as far as "tricks" go with the deck even Gilded Drake/Waterfront Bouncer is borderline acceptable.

The entire deck is "tricks"  thats what makes it a fun deck to ponder,  without the tricks it is just a slow green aggro deck.

This is Type I after all. Deranged Hermit is terrible.

If you say so, but this doesnt look like a short game deck.  5 mana is certainly rough, but it is 1 card slot, and there are other expensive creatures run successfully in the format that don't require tinkers and welders to be put into play.    Different strokes for different folks though,  just looked like a good addition to the deck.

[LoA]

Obviously it is not, just more flexible and able to kill non red creatures like factories, conclaves, small curiousitied creatures etc.

True, but I think this deck is better served with either versatile SB options, like BeB or survival-able cards, like Tracker or, now that there's blue in there, Prodigal Sorcerer.

[MrBeichner]

I agree,  a survivalable option is probably better, especially with the ability to genesis recurr it,  but one that you can use immediately and not have to wait for summoning sickness to end.   You don't want to see a welder get hot before you can kill it if at all possible.

[jeek]

       4 Basking Rootwalla
        4 Wild Mongrel
        1 Genesis
        1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
SB:  1 Wonder

At this point, you're only running the 4 Rootwallas and 2-3 other GY-niftiness.. is it work keeping the Mongrels in the deck or would something else be more effective?

[Swordsman]

Do you guys think this deck is worth playing without power?

[Redman]

Do you guys think this deck is worth playing without power?

I would say, for the blue version, yes, though a somewhat reserved yes.  The Moxen and Lotus are not a huge deal, as we're not trying to quickly cast huge things, and the Time Walk and Ancestral are there becasue the deck has blue. However, I think, without the power blue, a splash red version (which I am currently trying to work on) would be better.

One concern I have with splashing a color in this deck is the resulting mana base. Let's say that you do add Land Grants; assuming that we take out 4 basic lands for them, we're left with a basic land count somewhere around 4 or 5 - something I feel rather uncomfortable with, especially since Land Grants are counterable and the deck really wants at least 3 green on the table. The problem is compounded when you bring your Back to Basics in from the SB. Have you tried a Land Grant version, and has there been any problems like what I'm mentioning?  For reference, I am working on a splash red version, to use Blood Moon as a slightly friendlier mana hoser. (As well as stuff like Artifact Mutation and Vishino Heretic, for dealing with artifact fat...still no true answer to Exalted Angel though)

Also...anyone think Multani's Acolyte is worth a look? Cheaper than Yavimaya Elder and an Elf to boot...

[Swordsman]

I tried the deck and its fun to play, I'd say Time Walk is the most important power piece in the deck. I'm having trouble understanding a few things however:
Why Root Mazes?
Why no fetchlands?
Wood Elves seems a bit expensive, but I suppose its just to bring out a land and clamp him

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I tried the deck and its fun to play, I'd say Time Walk is the most important power piece in the deck. I'm having trouble understanding a few things however:
Why Root Mazes?
Why no fetchlands?
Wood Elves seems a bit expensive, but I suppose its just to bring out a land and clamp him

Mazes:  They pwn control and combo.  They serve as disruption that slows your opponent down without affecting you as much.

Fetches: The synergy with mazes is terrible.

Elves: I'm not fond of them either but they serve multiple purposes: mana, draw, threat, all in one, albeit being a bit slow.

[Redman]

Wood Elves really shoudl be dropped I feel, even if using the Symbiote. Taking forests out of your deck for 2G a turn is cute, but there are usually better things to do with that mana, and the real problem the Wood Elves are intended to help with (mana fixing) is more of a concern when you're stuck on a single land. Birds of Paradise or Llanowar Elf (if you really want an elf, perhaps even Quirion Ranger) seem superior choices, something Hyperion above already mentioned.