Tinker and Iron Giant as Plan B

[Ric_Flair]

I was thinking after a recent tournament that Tinker's stock has shot up skyward.  That said I was also thinking that if you play Tinker there is really no reason NOT to play 1 Colossus, especially if you play Brainstorm.  

So the question is this: if you are playing Slavery, Stax, or even a combo deck, why not run Colossus if you run Tinker as a plan B?

[TheIneffable]

It's a slot that can always go to something better, IMO, and many decklists are already tight on cards as it is. And also, unless you get lucky and do something broken like casting Turn 1 Tinker, a Tinker resolving is already a good thing, there isn't really a need to dilute a deck further.

Basically the way I see it, if Tinker is resolving you are in good shape enough that you don't need to have Colossus in the deck.

[TrixR4Kidz]

because there is no reason for tinkering in darksteel when you could just tinker in sundering "i'm alot better then darksteel" titan....i'd rather take out the lands and have a 7/10 body rather then tinker in darksteel and just have him swords to get set back

[rvs]

It's actually really simple ric: If you draw collosos in your first hand or after a draw7, you're basicly down a card.
Which, needless so say I guess, is pretty bad.

Workshop decks should probably run it, just because T1 tinker for collosos is game vs quite a lot of decks.
To compare it to something that's rather similar, why doesn't every deck run Bazaar + Squee engine? It's basicly the most powerful engine in the game, since you can Ancestral yourself every goddamn turn.
That's right, it doesn't fit

edit: And trix: you are totally wrong. There's only 1 competative deck in the format that plays Swords. And it's rather easy to recognise.

[Ifflejink]

I see Collossus more as an anti Null Rod measure than anything else. And having something that avoids Null Rod and then just wins would be quite nice for a deck like Slavery or Stax. Storm decks, I think, would be better off with it as a sideboard card, because it does basically what Rebuild and Chain of Vapor already do- stop Null Rod. IMO, Collossus is more of a metgame card.

[Stupid_Newb]

MoreFling hit the nail on the head - drawing a Colossus without a Tinker will set you back one card in your opening hand, and is somewhat like a mulligan if you think about it (one useless card in hand puts you at six cards).

Basically, there's one way to get Colossus into play - Tinker. You can't Weld it back, hardcasting it (even with Workshops and Power) will take quite a bit, and any other way you can think of (most likely Oath) won't fit into any Workshop or Combo deck (unless of course you run a transformation board).

If you don't get the one magical card that will put a Colossus into play for you, one of two things will happen:

1. You won't draw into either the Tinker or the Colossus, and it's basically a wasted card spot.
2. You draw into the Colossus, but not the Tinker, and you've got a wasted card spot, and a wasted card in hand, giving your opponent a small, but potentially important card advantage.

But, despite that, I still think one Colossus is worthy of a spot in certain Workshop decks, mainly Slavery, where you might be able to stall long enough to hardcast one.

[BreathWeapon]

Darksteel Collosus in Draw 7 for Tinker is really, really good vs Null Rod Aggro. I'd easily devote the 1 MD Slot for the Collossus, adding a 2nd Dimention to your deck is priceless.

I also think that Drain-Slaver should atleast SB a Collosus for U/g Madness and U/r Fish if not MD 1, instead of trying to resolve Goblin Welders and set up Mindslaver you can "Just Win" by Mystical/Demonic Tutor -> Tinker -> Collossus=GG. You can always Thirst or Brainstorm it away.

In 7/10, there is no point to add him. Resolving the Sundering Titan is good enough. The same can usually be said for Slavery and Stax, fetching Mindslaver for the Win is an equally good play and doesn't require an additional card slot.

[Ric_Flair]

I am not sure about the Colossus plan B, yet, but I can answer some of the criticism.  

Colossus in the opening hand:
First, getting one in hand would suck, but you have a low chance of that happening.  Second, I did emphasize that Colossus Plan B is best suited for decks with Brainstorm for this very reasons.  Third there are a lot of cards that you would not want to see in your opening hand for lots of reasons, like Mindslaver, Memory Jar, 2nd Intuition, but that should not stop you from running one card.  That is the sort of logic that kept people from seeing how much better Angel was in 4cc.  Innovation has never occurred by listening to convention.  The responses in this vein are all pretty lame.  Maybe some data would help.  ::Looks for Dr. Sylvan::

Colossus as win more:
This point seems more solid, but I am not totally convinced it is right.  The thing is that Tinker usually leads to Jar or something else which leads to the kill.  With Colossus you Tinker for the kill directly.  I don't think of Colossus as win more, but instead win NOW.  And the idea is that it is your plan B.  That is, Colossus as a kill in a deck where the main kill has failed, is unavailable, or otherwise ineffective.  Think of it as plan B for Slaver or Karn based decks when Null Rod is out, or the back up for a stalled out combo.  That is my point.  So it is not necessarily additional.

[TheIneffable]

Basically Tinker for Collosus seems to be inferior to Tinker 7/10 after the first turn or so. Sure it is an extra turn but at least if it gets Sworded or Duplicanted it still did something.

[goober]

Basically Tinker for Collosus seems to be inferior to Tinker 7/10 after the first turn or so. Sure it is an extra turn but at least if it gets Sworded or Duplicanted it still did something.

But not if it gets Rack and Ruined, Artifact Mutationed, Oxidized, Naturalized, Viashino Hereticed, Goblin Vandaled, Shattering Pulsed, Uktabied, Shattered, or Disenchanted.

Lets go to Dr.Sylvan's June Breakdown

45 Rack and Ruin
29 Swords to Plowshares
23 Naturalize
15 Artifact Mutation
14 Shattering Pulse
11 Chain of Vapor
11 Oxidize
11 Disenchant
9 Rebuild
9 Echoing Truth
8 Hurkyl's Recall
6 Goblin Vandal
6 Duplicant
3 Uktabi Orangutan
3 Gilded Drake
3 Shatter
2 Dismantling Blow
2 Scavenger Folk
2 Energy Flux
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Terminate
1 Capsize
1 Deconstruct
1 Submerge
1 Snuff Out

Phew, that gives us 140 for Colossus and 79 for Titan.  Nearly twice as many cards played are good for the Colossus.  One other notable is that you can chump Titan, which gives you more time to find one of the answers.  FCG and WTF can use that time to find Artifact Mutation which is devistating.  Fish can buy time for whichever answer it runs, there are a large variety.

Now I want to look at the matchups, and which is better to Tinker in.  In taking with a good chart strategy I will color code it with Titan as red, and Colossus as blue.

4cc-Titan
Fish-Colossus
Workshop(All)-Colossus
Tog-Titan
Turbotitan-Colossus
WTF-Colossus
Dragon-Titan
FCG-Colossus
Landstill-Titan
TPS-Titan
Draw7-Trinisphere
Belcher-Trinisphere

In this it is evenly split 5-5.  Workshop decks are so plentiful that it should probably count as more than 1, giving Colossus the edge.  Then once you look at the matchups you see that overall Titan is helpful in the more difficult ones.  4cc is very tough, and that is where Titan shines.  Fish is easy, and Colossus is better there, but Titan is devestating as well.  

It seems that Colossus is harder to deal with, but Titan will help you where you need it.

Overall while Titan is a lot easier to deal with, it helps you where you need it.

[TrixR4Kidz]

edit: And trix: you are totally wrong. There's only 1 competative deck in the format that plays Swords. And it's rather easy to recognise.

While this is true, every tier 1 deck in the format can deal with a first turn darksteel pretty much pre sideboard, and definately post sideboard, the only deck that can pretty much do nothing about it pre side is fish...it's obviously a win more card, tinkering in a turn 1 titan against fish is nearly as affective, they cannot kill it...

edit: @ Goober, I noticed you favored darksteel vs. workshops, what would happen if they played turn 1 welder? now he's shuffled back into the library never to be useful again

[goober]

I noticed you favored darksteel vs. workshops, what would happen if they played turn 1 welder? now he's shuffled back into the library never to be useful again

Then you fetch Trike, not Titan or Colossus.  If they weld out the Titan you are just as worthless.  Colossus is better at racing, and that is important.  As well as trampling over whatever they get out.

[TheIneffable]

Yes Titan is easily destroyable, but thats assuming they have that destruction in hand, and if it is an instant, enough mana to cast it in response to Titan, or to recast it in the post-Titan scenario if they are tapped out or it is a sorcery speed effect. Even if it is destroyed it still has done damage.

I like goober's analysis that Titan helps in the matchups where you need it most and that Colossus is just a win more card.

[Phele]

I like goober's analysis that Titan helps in the matchups where you need it most and that Colossus is just a win more card.

But the analysis lacks much and just points out what Colossus/Titan is good against, not what it is good in. While the Tinker-Titan might be good in WS- and Slaver-Decks, in others it isn't and the Colossus-plan is much stronger. For example: In my TPS-build the Colossus is just golden. It kills at least one turn quicker (don't forget about the trample), what is really important in this deck and it helps out a lot in pretty difficult matchups like Fish. Colossus just won me a tournament in the finals against fish. He couldn't do anything against the big dude first game and second game he was so afraid that he even boarded Maze of Ith ... against a combo build.  :lol:

To sum it up, the strength of the creature-Tinker-target also depends on the deck you are playing it in. In combo-builds Titan is just inferior.

On dead card in the opening hand: I just can underline what what Ric Flair said. In deck with Brainstorms it isn't that big disadvantage. The B-Plan-opportunity is much more important - at least to make it more difficult for the opponent to hate you out, as described above.

[rvs]

@trix: Collosos is simply a much more effective clock against decks like Fish

Colossus in the opening hand:
First, getting one in hand would suck, but you have a low chance of that happening.

I dare you to compare the odds to the odds of drawing a tinker + random mox in your opening hand

[orgcandman]

Not to get off topic or hijack the thread, but I have been thinking about this exact subject for a long time. The conclusion I came to was slightly different than Colossus. The artifact fat I chose: Bosh, Iron Golem.

Although he is nowhere near as large as the colossus, he's trampling fat, he's easier to hardcast, and he can sac himself in response to swords for 8 to the dome OR spot removal. He looks like another titany creature that can just wreck house when he drops onto the board. The problems people have been seeing with colossus being A) difficult to hardcast, B) dead-in-hand, and C) opposing welders causing headaches with shuffling all are solved by Bosh. The other thing to consider, 11/11 > 6/7. However, think about it this way. After bosh swings, if you sac him, he puts 8 directly to the dome. No if's, and's or but's. Also, he turns potentialy R&R'd artifacts into flaming balls of death. Something that everyone can appreciate when staring down artifact hate.

Again, I apologize if this is an inappropriate thread for this post, and I'll start a new one if it seems warranted. However, I thought this sortof had some valid points relevant to this discussion.

[Nameless]

Not to get off topic or hijack the thread, but I have been thinking about this exact subject for a long time. The conclusion I came to was slightly different than Colossus. The artifact fat I chose: Bosh, Iron Golem.

Although he is nowhere near as large as the colossus, he's trampling fat, he's easier to hardcast, and he can sac himself in response to swords for 8 to the dome OR spot removal. He looks like another titany creature that can just wreck house when he drops onto the board. The problems people have been seeing with colossus being A) difficult to hardcast, B) dead-in-hand, and C) opposing welders causing headaches with shuffling all are solved by Bosh. The other thing to consider, 11/11 > 6/7. However, think about it this way. After bosh swings, if you sac him, he puts 8 directly to the dome. No if's, and's or but's. Also, he turns potentialy R&R'd artifacts into flaming balls of death. Something that everyone can appreciate when staring down artifact hate.

Again, I apologize if this is an inappropriate thread for this post, and I'll start a new one if it seems warranted. However, I thought this sortof had some valid points relevant to this discussion.

The problem is that Bosh doesn't work against Null Rod, which is obviously running rampant right now, and even if it did I'd rather have Memnarch.

[Ric_Flair]

edit: And trix: you are totally wrong. There's only 1 competative deck in the format that plays Swords. And it's rather easy to recognise.

Really?  What can Fish do?  What about Aggro Artifact?  As far as I can see the tier 1 decks, at least as of right now, only 4cc has a ready answer main deck.  

The big benefit with Colossus is that versus Fish Colossus is just better than Titan.  The trample ability is huge versus a deck whose main strategy versus opposing creatures is chump block and fly over for 1.

Yes Titan is easily destroyable, but thats assuming they have that destruction in hand, and if it is an instant, enough mana to cast it in response to Titan, or to recast it in the post-Titan scenario if they are tapped out or it is a sorcery speed effect.

This sort of discussion about what kills what and what you have to draw is silly.  These are NEVER productive sorts of conversations.  Magic is a game where almost anything is technically possible so let's keep that stupid banter to a minimum.

The match up analysis, was, however, exactly the sort of thing that would help.  As was the use of Sylvan's list.  I think that the arguments made here are at least enough justification to warrant some serious testing.

Finally think of it this way:

Draw7, TPS, and Belcher can add one card and still have game versus Null Rod.  Not that I want to help out combo, but....it is something to consider.

[TheIneffable]

My point is, both can be killed, while if Titan does get killed it did something.

Yes its an extra card to add to combo, but I always feel like adding a card that doesn't go for the main focus of the deck to be like adding a 61st card, all it does is decrease the chances of you drawing cards that you would need to win the way the deck is planned out to win.

I could see it being used in Belcher but that is because I feel that deck has spots to burn.

[Zelc]

4cc-Titan
Fish-Colossus
Workshop(All)-Colossus
Tog-Titan
Turbotitan-Colossus
WTF-Colossus
Dragon-Titan
FCG-Colossus
Landstill-Titan
TPS-Titan
Draw7-Trinisphere
Belcher-Trinisphere

I don't feel some of these are accurate.  Against Dragon, an early Tinker should probably go for a Colossus.  Dragon plays Moxen, and therefore will probably only need to topdeck one or two Swamps in order to kill you.  Additionally, Dragon's best land, Bazaar of Baghdad, doesn't fear Titan.  Colossus kills one turn faster and doesn't get chumped by the maindeck Xantid Swarm.  Finally, if Titan somehow ends up in the dumpster (Oxidize or something), it'd make a very tempting target for an Animate spell.

Against Urw landstill, I can easily see why one would fetch Titan.  However, the Urg and Ur versions cannot deal with a fetched Darksteel Colossus.  Having an unremovable 2 turn clock against control is some good, I hear.  Additionally, it's entirely possible that Titan would destroy very few lands against a Landstill deck.  Landstill plays around 8 manlands and can keep fetchlands around until mana is needed.  Finally, while Artifact Mutation can still generate 11 tokens when used on a Colossus, it's probably better to be facing down 11 tokens with your 11/11 than to face down 8 tokens with nothing.

It may also be noted that an early Tinker (turn 1 or 2) for Titan may not do very much as your opponent may not have many killable lands.  In these situations, it may be better to go for Colossus.  Against TPS, Titan may not have as much an effect early on as TPS does play moxen.  Additionally, an extra 4 points of damage can mean 4 less cards drawn off Bargain.

My point is, both can be killed, while if Titan does get killed it did something.

As was pointed out earlier, not all decks can deal with a Colossus (at least game 1).  Additionally, Titan's lower power and lack of trample means that your opponent will have AT LEAST one more turn to find an answer.  In Titan's case, that answer will be easier to find, as there are more of them floating around.

Yes its an extra card to add to combo, but I always feel like adding a card that doesn't go for the main focus of the deck to be like adding a 61st card, all it does is decrease the chances of you drawing cards that you would need to win the way the deck is planned out to win.

Sometimes, your Plan A just doesn't work out.  Maybe you're playing Stax and your opponent gets out a Sacred Ground or gets permanents advantage.  Maybe you're playing 4cC and are put into a position where you are forced to race (Troll Ascetic?).  In these situations, you'd be glad that you have a Plan B: Arti-Fat in the case of Stax and Angel in the case of 4cC.  Time and time again have shown that decks with multiple paths to victory are more resilient.  Gro-A-Tog's strength was its ability to play Control, Combo, or Aggro.  Heck, Academy used to board 4x Negators and Call of the Herd for the combo match, and Smennen still advocates boarding Hidden Gibbons and Guerrillas in Draw7.  Having a difficult to remove two turn clock is a pretty good Plan B.

[TrixR4Kidz]

Really? What can Fish do? What about Aggro Artifact? As far as I can see the tier 1 decks, at least as of right now, only 4cc has a ready answer main deck.

Fish can't really do anything pre side thats why I said it... after sideboard they'll just bounce it back to your hand... aggro artifact decks, you mean decks that don't run welders? cuz if thats what you mean, then that isn't tier 1, but either way it is probably running a duplicant, and if you are referring to aggro artifact decks that run welder, then welder is how they get rid of it....4cc is the only deck that runs an answer? what about stax? they can play tangle wire, smokestack thats that....what about draw7 or TPS, they'll just bounce it....I tinkered in darksteel against landstill at a recent dual mox tourny, and the person sided in control magic and stole it, WHO USES THAT CARD ANYMORE, furthermore proving my point, it can be dealt with, almost as easily as titan

[Zelc]

Fish can't really do anything pre side thats why I said it... after sideboard they'll just bounce it back to your hand...

In June, the following Bounce spells were played:
11 Chain of Vapor
9 Rebuild
8 Hurkyl's Recall
Note the lack of Unsummon (and I doubt Gay/r plays Chain of Vapor).
True, Gay/r plays 2x Maze of Ith in the sideboard, but how often are they going to find them in the first 4-5 turns?  The odds are better that they'd find a way to remove a Titan in the first 6-8 turns than that.

Aggro artifact decks, you mean decks that don't run welders? cuz if thats what you mean, then that isn't tier 1, but either way it is probably running a duplicant

See Mono-Brown Crusher.  Additionally, aggro artifact decks generally don't run lands that you can kill (either artifact lands or colorless only lands), so having a Sundering removed isn't much worse than having a Colossus removed.  Even if he Duplicants your Colossus, the Duplicant does not have Trample or Indestructible, making it not that much worse than a 7/10 (especially since they usually have some other creatures, and an 11/11 may not be faster than a 7/10).  Not only that, but a Darksteel Colossus will do much more than a Sundering Titan in this match if they don't find a Duplicant.  Cranial Plating can make creatures have much more than 10 power, and Sundering Titan can be chumped while they swing with the rest of their team.

and if you are referring to aggro artifact decks that run welder, then welder is how they get rid of it....

And how many decks that play Welder play lands that Titan can kill?  Control Slaver plays some, but almost all other Welder decks play at most 4x Volcanic Island.  While Sundering Titan does stay in your graveyard after getting Welded out, you could just not fetch a Darksteel Colossus if your opponent has an active Welder.

what about stax? they can play tangle wire, smokestack thats that...

And how is this worse than if you'd gotten a Sundering Titan?  The Trinistax decks in DrSylvan's June analysis play three Volcanic Islands as the only killable lands.  Some MUD decks play only six mountains for targets.  Some play no lands that Titan can kill.  A two-turn clock will force Stax to be a lot more aggressive than a three-turn clock.

What about draw7 or TPS, they'll just bounce it...

Look at my post for TPS, and for Draw7, you should be going for Trinisphere (probably for TPS as well).

I tinkered in darksteel against landstill at a recent dual mox tourny, and the person sided in control magic and stole it, WHO USES THAT CARD ANYMORE

I think you answered your own point: who plays Control Magic?  According to DrSylvan, no one that top-8'd did in June.  You should also board in REBs against Landstill, which can deal with Control Magic.  Control Magic is also a turn 4 spell, which Darksteel Colossus can outrace if you do a first turn Tinker going second or a second turn Tinker going first.  Finally, like I've stated, Sundering Titan may not do very much against Landstill early on, and your opponent decides which lands die (and he can choose the same land for multiple land types) if Titan dies while Control Magiced.

[Sextiger]

Zelc, I'm gonna have to say your out of line on many of your comments.  Relying on Sylvan's numbers isn't the perfect way to base your ideas since not every tourney has to have 50+ people for the competition to be good. Weird card choices such as a maindeck bounce in fish or control magic in a deck's Sideboard can be good in the right situation.

After all the discussion of inclusion or removal of Colossus it seems that people's opinions have not changed.  If you want to run it or not it's your own personal opinion as there is no perfect choice.  


Not to discredit PurpleHat and JDawg's work on Crusher, but it seems to me Zelc that you are calling it a Tier 1 deck.  The deck is very very new and it only shown appearances in a few tourneys, calling it tier 1 seems out of hand.  Bringing up Tiers in a discussion is bound to cause trouble so  that idea should be left out of this thread.  Excuse my words Zelc if you didn't call the deck tier 1 for I was confused on what you were saying.

[Evilkin]

#1 reason not to run Colossus would probably be that Tinker can be countered.  How good is that Colossus if you can't resolve the Tinker?  Titan has tons of more synergies.  I think you would have a greater chance of beating Fish with a Crucible/Strip Mine lock.

[TheIneffable]

Zelc, I'm gonna have to say your out of line on many of your comments. Relying on Sylvan's numbers isn't the perfect way to base your ideas since not every tourney has to have 50+ people for the competition to be good. Weird card choices such as a maindeck bounce in fish or control magic in a deck's Sideboard can be good in the right situation.

Basically everyone's meta is different and saying something like this really doesn't matter. Yes some cards are better in some metas, we are just trying to find it out which one is better overall.

I think that if you play a deck with Workshops, you should be playing Titan over Colossus. I think if you are not playing Workshops then it seems like Titan is a better choice because you are using it for one thing and one thing only, damage. Thats how I see it.

[TrixR4Kidz]

Zelc, I think you have misunderstood my whole point, the point is "tinkering in titan is always better then tinkering in darksteel" so you don't need to keep bringing up the fact of he won't kill lands when he comes into play, even if he kills 1, it's already better then darksteel.

the point is, if they can deal with darksteel almost as easily as titan, then why even run darksteel, he's dead in your hand, and after you've used tinker he's a dead card (for the most part) in general... and yes, the "crusher" deck, cannot be considered tier 1, it's barely been around, it cannot even be classified as a tier at this point in time....

And don't base everything on sylvan's "statistics" noone plays the exact same deck, and the kid who control magic ended up top 8'ing in that tourny, and it was about 48 people or so....

and yea fish doesn't run chain of vapor, hurkly's or any of the bouncers you named, because they often run sigil of sleep and unsummon in sideboard, and i've also seen fish decks mainboard 1 echoing truth. I cannot count the number of cards that can deal with how to get rid of it

[Lockdown]

*sighs*  Come on guys, calm down.  Trix, first of all, you're not making a good case for yourself when it appears that you have trouble with spelling and grammar.  Trust me, people will pay more attention to a person who comes across as mature.  Don't get me wrong, this isn't a flame, it's just a piece of advice.

All right.  Back on topic.  Let's look at each card.

Darksteel Colossus
{11}
Artifact Creature
11/11
Trample
Darksteel Colossus is indestructible. ("Destroy" effects and lethal damage don't destroy it.)
If Darksteel Colossus would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Darksteel Colossus and shuffle it into its owner's library instead.

Sundering Titan

Artifact Creature
7/10
When Sundering Titan comes into play, choose a land of each basic land type, then destroy those lands.
When Sundering Titan leaves play, choose a land of each basic land type, then destroy those lands.

A very short analysis to go over the obvious points:
-Castable factor.  First, assume you only run one copy of each for the purpace of Tinker.  In the unlikely event that you actually draw one of them, Sundering Titan is easier to cast, though it shouldn't be too difficult to put Darksteel Colossus back into the deck with Brainstorm for example.  Advantage: Sundering Titan

-Durability factor.  Darksteel Colossus is harder to get rid of, period.  You might say it's almost "indestructible".  If bounced, see castable factor.   Advantage: Darksteel Colossus

-Damage factor.  Capacity for ending the game quickly.  Darksteel Colossus is a 11/11 trample versus a 7/10.  Advantage: Darksteel Colossus

-Special abilities factor.  Sundering Titan's land destruction is far better than the fact that Darksteel Colossus never hits the graveyard with a few rare exceptions.  Advantage: Sundering Titan

All in all, they're both big beatsticks, both relatively hard to remove, and chances are good that if you've gotten one out, you've already won.  Picking which one to play largely depends on your strategy/your opponent's strategy.  Sundering Titan is more for a dedicated artifact fat deck like TNT or 7/10 split, whereas Darksteel Colossus is probably more appropriate for a deck where the Colossus is a one-of and used to win random games quickly (See my Crucible Lock deck).

[wuaffiliate]

Stop arguing about something that is irrelivant. DSC is superior to titan in combo as a single tinker target, it's just a better threat, it's harder to remove, and it ALWAYS deals damage when attacking.

Titan disrupts, who gives two shits about disrupting when you can just win by swinging once and throwing a low tendrils at the opponent or just swinging twice.

This thread should be focusing on COMBO, not workshop decks, and so on. This is about DSC being a killer way to get arround null rod and several other annoyances.

Titan is obviously better in a workshop build because it flows with the mana denial gameplan and also doubles as a win condition.

[TheIneffable]

It is also far easier to get into pay with most Workshop based decks.

I think its assumed that combo should run Colossus if it runs something, I really think the major discussion should, is it worth that slot at all in combo?

If you feel it was worth the slot, I would like to know what it is replacing in your build of combo deck X, Y, or Z.

[wuaffiliate]

It is deffinately worth the slot, it gives combo alot more steam against hate, it's just another option to abuse.