Most optimal SB cards for Ur Fish Mirror

[trotch]

The 5-proxy power tournaments I play at are not very high powered, so there are a lot of Fish mirror matches.  And of course, there are a ridiculous number of potential cards that are very good in the mirror.  The question is, which are the MOST effective.  I can list these options off the top of my head:

Fire/Ice
Sword of Fire and Ice
More Crucibles
REB
BEB
Razorfin Hunter
Suq'ata Firewalker
Slice and Dice (For the uncounterable cycling, obv)
More Stifles
Fat Creatures

I find I am able to SB out 8 cards, at most, in the Fish mirror.  What cards do you reccommend?  Right now I bringing in (Crucibles already maindeck, keep in mind):

3 Sword
2 F/I
3 REB

This is probably not optimal though.

So the question is, what is the best mirror match sideboard scheme, and why?

[EvilSirMark]

[/begin mindless babbling]

in the fish mirror, one of the most important cards feels like lavamancer, for his recurrable removal. I have played alot of fish mirrors that came down to who got the lavamancer on the board first, and who kept him around the longest. Considering this instant speed with no conditions on it would be the best bet for the mirror. Things like Sword of fire/ice are good, but useless if you can't get the opposing lavamancer off the board. Your creatures will die before they get equiped. Razorfin's and Firewalkers suffer from summoning sickness and really don't help much more than the lavamancer you are trying to play anyway.

Personally I love Fire/Ice you will always have a target for it, plus you can two for one your opponent alot of the time by splitting up the damage. I am also rather partial to Slice and Dice, for just the reasons I discussed above. It's instant speed, plus it's alot harder to counter than fire/ice or a R/Beb. The cantrip part is just icing on the cake. The cards for the fish mirror I've been testing to bring in from the board are:

2 Slice and Dice
2 Fire and Ice
2 Crucible (one is in the MD)
3 ReB

I like having access to both Slide and F/I plus they are both helpful in other matches as well... like ones involving opposing Goblin Welders.

[/end mindless babbling]

[mongrel12]

Crucible is good in the mirror (obviously), but i find SoFaI really lacking for several reasons. First, it is very mana-intensive, and in a deck that likes to play spells/activate manlands every turn, a minimum investment of 5 mana seems a little much, even over 2 turns.

Lavamancer and Fire/Ice are beasts in the mirror, so sbding in 1/2 BeB might be a good plan. I generally find I can board out at least 10 cards (4 Standstill, 2 Voidmage, 3 Null Rod, 1 Curiosity for 2 Fire/Ice, 1 BeB, 3 ReB, 1/2 Crucible, 1/2 Stifle).

Slice and Dice is really powerful in the mirror, but i find it's use is limited to the mirror (3 mana is a bit much to kill a welder), so i havn't included it in my sideboard.

I think that, aside from random sideboard tech, mana denial is crucial in the gay/r mirror.  Most builds only run volcanic island as their only red sources, so stifling fetches/wasting volcs is extremely effective with a lavamancer on their side of the board.

[Tainted_Wood]

Now, I haven't entered any huge tournaments in a while, so take what I say with a grain of salt.  But I have found that the best card in the mirror was the Firewalker.  That card, once it hit ruled the board, or at least ruled it enough to keep a lavamancer around.

That said, with old scurey men running around, that may not be the case anymore.

I think that ReB is now more key than before.  As is Fire/Ice.  As for amounts, I will defer to everyone else's judgement.

[CrazyCarl]

I don't play Fish but I see no reason to not run 4 Fire/Ice.

[Cross]

I basically answered the same question in a forum really close to this:

Quote:
I still need more testing as to whether Suq'Ata Firewalker will still dominate the mirror as it did with UG now that Old Man of the Sea is starting to be used. So far I haven't played anyone running it MD or SB, but I have a feeling I will soon.
 


It does, it's really a bomb against the mirror. I had two in my sideboard at the great barrinton tourney yesterday and I cruised through my mirror matchup postsideboard. There's really nothing fish can do about this card other then beat face with workshops (unless the run old man). The game goes from being who can drop the lavamancer first to who can drop the firewalker, which, in this particular tourney my opponent came unprepared without one. THe other good thing about the firewalker is that it blue and if your volcs are wasted you still have a chance to play this.

also about fire/ice, I also think 4 is overkill, everyone is afraid to play fish right now and 4 was too many originally, I think your best bet is to play with two and adjust it for your meta.

[scars4eyes]

has anyone tried barbarian ring?  with crucible i think this maybe a techy card, yeah i know its vunerable to strips and produces red but its uncounterable and active on the turn you want to use it.  the only problem i find is that fish doesnt seem to have a lot of cards dumping in to bin to get threshold.

[Cross]

barbarian ring has terrible synergy with your lavamancers....it makes no sense to run it

[AggressiveDude]

has anyone tried barbarian ring?  with crucible i think this maybe a techy card, yeah i know its vunerable to strips and produces red but its uncounterable and active on the turn you want to use it.  the only problem i find is that fish doesnt seem to have a lot of cards dumping in to bin to get threshold.

how about desert?

[trotch]

Has anyone tested boarding in 4x Juggernaught/Su-Chi?

4 Mana seems like a lot, but Fish has trouble dealing with fat, ESPECIALLY after SBing in narrow cards like Suq'Ata Firewalker and Slice and Dice to beat X/1s.  

I will test this and see how it goes.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I had the same idea except I decided to use phyrexian warbeast.  It didn't work out.  By the time the warbest can hit the game is usually decided.  he can't deal with other fliers and if your opponent has gotten early board advantage it won't stop them from killing you.  It's also quite vulnerable to daze.  Fat is hard for fish to deal with only when powered out quickly by acceleration such as workshop, so boarding your own fat is rather useless.

As for suq'ata, it IS absolutely amazing when it hits.  Resolving it probably means you win unless you are losing quite badly... but then again the same is true for fire/ice and it is 1 mana cheaper.  With wastes and strips it can also be difficult sometimes to get to 1UU for suq'ata.

I don't like the idea of slice & dice because of the symmetry in damage.  It's only good when you are losing and they can stifle it also.

I don't like the sword for the same reason as the fat; too slow.

So, I think a combination of BEB, REB, and fire/ice would probably be most effective.  And I agree that lavamancer is the most important card in this matchup.  If one side can resolve an active mancer that sticks it is game over.

[Cjkory]

Hey Cross u didnt by chance have a mirror match first round did u???

That was me and I must say firewalker pwned me.

I mean third game I had complete control wasteing most things and getting in a fair amount of damage, but when firewalker hit that was it. Firewalker took out alot of my stuff and to make matters worse...next turn another firewalker.

In a mirror match if u get firewalker out ur in control, but if u get 2 out....U WIN its as simple as that!!!

[kill doug]

This is why i play wtf bacause boa alone gives me the upper hand in this match up