september 1st is coming... any restrictions with it??

[Bastian]

Hello there! Bet you were already asking where 'da heck was good ol WK!

You weren't? oh...

Well, between college and work (yes, it sucks to actually have to work to study...) Either wayyy... Although I haven't been coming here as much as I did before, nor posting I still play Magic, and I like to keep an eye on my favourite format.

With September 1st coming along do you think anything could get restricted (or banned in any other format?)

Goblin Welder? Mishra's Workshop? Crucible of Worlds? I'm mostly betting that either Welder or the Crucible may be targeted. Crucible... for the already known reasons and Welder because he's the real driving force behind artifact decks (just look at Drain Slaver decks which doesn't need Workshops to run and which won the recent t1 worlds...)

Oh well, just my 0.05€...

[Jebus]

I'm gonna stick with my conservative "no changes" stance.

[Kowal]

Restrict:  Consumptive Goo, Elvish Herder, Mishra's War Machine

Ban:  Tracker

[Zherbus]

I heard from a very reliable source that Necro is taken off the restricted list.

Heh.

[Razvan]

I heard from a very reliable source that Necro is taken off the restricted list.

Heh.

That ought to make the environment a little bit more interesting.

I really hope there are no new restrictions...

[Dr. Sylvan]

With so little time to see results bear out, it's hard to tell whether they'll restrict Crucible, but I'd bet not. But if they want to toss us a bone, separating T1 from 1.5 wouldn't be a bad bet.

[rvs]

Restrict: Crucible, ESG (although for that we'll have to wait to December I suppose).

Unrestrict: Voltaic Key. Well... they should you know

[dicemanx]

Let's toss Trinisphere in there too. It will probably never happen, which is unfortunate. Trinisphere can be a mindless first turn kill card, but because there are consistency issues with Trini-packing decks, and the fact that Trini is not so hot going second, people don't seem to mind it in the environment.

[theorigamist]

Seriously, Belcher would be amazing if Trinisphere were restricted.  Same goes for Workshop.  I don't think they can really restrict any of those cards (except for ESG, obviously) without allowing combo to become a huge part of the metagame.

[dicemanx]

Allowing Trinisphere to exist in order to contain combo is not a valid reason in my opinion.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

No....
Belcher would be amazing if Null Rod and good decks didn't exist.

[Razvan]

Why the hell would you restrict ESG? Did it, in any way, distort the environment?

I don't think anything should be restricted, except maybe Crucible should be watched a bit more carefully...

[Smmenen]

It's been so long since any deck has dominated the format wholesale like GAT that people seem to have forgotten the touchstone for restriction is not THEORY, but results.

Show me tournament data with rampant deck domination and I can show you restricted cards.

[dicemanx]

It's been so long since any deck has dominated the format wholesale like GAT that people seem to have forgotten the touchstone for restriction is not THEORY, but results.

The last time anything got restricted seems to suggest otherwise.

And Steve, were not suggesting possible restrictions based on THEORY. Sure, you can use dominance and distortion as criteria, but why not use a third criteria for restriction: getting rid of cards that allow for the possibility of STUPID first turn kills.

Is that not reasonable? Yes, the format is currently very balanced, with numerous viable decktypes, but do we really need the random, skill-less, one-card "I win" combos in the format?

[Smmenen]

It's been so long since any deck has dominated the format wholesale like GAT that people seem to have forgotten the touchstone for restriction is not THEORY, but results.

The last time anything got restricted seems to suggest otherwise.

And Steve, were not suggesting possible restrictions based on THEORY. Sure, you can use dominance and distortion as criteria, but why not use a third criteria for restriction: getting rid of cards that allow for the possibility of STUPID first turn kills.

Is that not reasonable? Yes, the format is currently very balanced, with numerous viable decktypes, but do we really need the random, skill-less, one-card "I win" combos in the format?

No I don't find that reasonable based upon the principle that the entire idea of Type One is not to create a healthy format but a balanced one.  The approach to Vintage is laissez-faire - let people play with everything and only restrict when absolutely necessary.  There are no power-level bannings for a reason.  

So long as there are viable decks and no deck is distorting, I see no problem with losing a game match or so to Workshop Trinisphere so long as there are sufficiently powerful strategies to win that match.  I am the first one who would probably reap the reward from seeing Trinisphere go as my precious LongDeath would become a monster.  But even playing Longdeath, I can say that I feel like I have good game against Workshops - and I can win even after they go First Turn Workshop Trinisphere by getting two lands and a ESG and Death Wishing for Hurkyl's.  Or Three lands and the same.

[Jebus]

Actually, I'm pretty sure Diminishing Returns will get the axe...

[Triple_S]

ESG is functionally the same as Lotus Petal as it produces more mana than it costs.  This explanation has been used for other restrictions (Chrome Mox most recently).

[TracerBullet]

I would just like to point out, if people are looking for results, one need look no farther than Goblin Welder...


I'm not saying it will be restricted, but if that's the benchmark we're gonna use...

[Triple_S]

Pat is obviously trying to drive the market value of foil welders down for hoarding purposes  

[CrazyCarl]

Thirst for Knowlege is also really, really good.  Restrictable?  Maybe.

Now joblin Welder is another story.  I could see it getting the axe.  Tinker every turn for crying out loud!

[Azhrei]

W
O
R
K
S
H
O
P

[jpmeyer]

Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Elvish Spirit Guide, Channel the Suns, Seething Song, and Mana Drain.

Seriously though, some day I really do want to see Drain, Ritual, and ESG go.

[Dr. Sylvan]

There are no power-level bannings for a reason

Some of us still think there should be. :[

I see what you're saying (and everyone knows I've locked almost as many mindless Restrict threads as Orlove), but Steve, there are still people who don't think Long was that bad---it never dominated. In fact during its peak performance period Dragon was more than twice as prevalent in Top 8s, and Rector was tied with Long. Now Dragon and Rector don't scare us, but for most, Long does. So clearly, there is a restriction precedent that says "a card doesn't have even have to be in the highest-appearing archetype to be restricted if it brings about too many wins too early in the game".

So that leaves us with the question of whether something meets that criteria this time. Crucible isn't exactly in the same category, which is why there's so much uncertainty about it. ESG, Dark Ritual, etc haven't really proven consistent turn 1-2 lethality, even if SliverKing got knocked out of T8 contention by the most ridiculous DeathLong performance ever. So I'll say that this time they won't hit anything, even though if it was up to me I'd probably nuke things from orbit including about half of JP's suggestions, some of my own, and breaking out the BANHAMMAR.

I am, however, predicting the separation will occur soon.

[Smmenen]

There are no power-level bannings for a reason

Some of us still think there should be. :[

I see what you're saying (and everyone knows I've locked almost as many mindless Restrict threads as Orlove), but Steve, there are still people who don't think Long was that bad---it never dominated. In fact during its peak performance period Dragon was more than twice as prevalent in Top 8s, and Rector was tied with Long. Now Dragon and Rector don't scare us, but for most, Long does. So clearly, there is a restriction precedent that says "a card doesn't have even have to be in the highest-appearing archetype to be restricted if it brings about too many wins too early in the game".

So that leaves us with the question of whether something meets that criteria this time. Crucible isn't exactly in the same category, which is why there's so much uncertainty about it. ESG, Dark Ritual, etc haven't really proven consistent turn 1-2 lethality, even if SliverKing got knocked out of T8 contention by the most ridiculous DeathLong performance ever. So I'll say that this time they won't hit anything, even though if it was up to me I'd probably nuke things from orbit including about half of JP's suggestions, some of my own, and breaking out the BANHAMMAR.

I am, however, predicting the separation will occur soon.

Oh, I thought Long should have been, obviously, so you are preaching to the choir.  But we restrict to afffect tournament conditions, not theoretical conditions.  To that extent that precedent is erroneous.  I think Long probably would have shown to be the sick monster it was - but it would have taken some time.  

I think there is clearly a problem in t1 where people don't try/learn enough decks quickly enough.  Otherwise Long would have diffused more quickly.

Ironically and somewhat paradoxically, I think Yawgmoth's Will should be banned.

I have a very strong case against Yawgmoth's Will, but this thread is not the place fo rit.

[dandan]

I hope that Portal will be allowed in Type I because, quite simply, there isn't any reason why it shouldn't be. That would mean Imperial Seal and Personal Tutor getting restricted and possibly Grim and Cruel Tutor depending on how conservative they are.

As far as 'normal' cards Type I appears to be as balanced as such an unbalanced format could possibly be. In addition it still seems to be in flux and is about to get new toys. Wait and see seems the obvious choice. Is Workshop on the watch list? It should be.

There are a few restricted cards *cough*Voltaic Key*cough* that don't deserve the honour although I doubt if anyone would notice one way or the other.

[Gabethebabe]

I hope that Portal will be allowed in Type I because, quite simply, there isn't any reason why it shouldn't be. That would mean Imperial Seal and Personal Tutor getting restricted and possibly Grim and Cruel Tutor depending on how conservative they are.

Well, I see a reason why Portal should not be allowed. As you say, there will be a couple of tutors more available. Tutors were restricted for a reason, why add a couple of quite good ones into the format? Isn´t combo good enough as it is?

[MuzzonoAmi]

I'm not sure how much combo would use Sorcery-speed Tutors, especially when they have several good instants to work with already and many aren't even runnning Lim-Dul's Vault yet.

As for restrictions, I don't see anything being changed now. I don't think anything should be changed now, either. Granted, this is coming from a person who feels that while Long was a monster, they shouldn't have restricted LED and Burning Wish so quickly and that there isn't any case strong enough to ban Yawgmoth's Will. But even Welder, which is the card showing up closest to 'dominance' numbers, isn't really distoring things yet. Not that he shouldn't be watched, of course

[dandan]

Doomsday unrestricted?

I didn't see that one coming. Imagine the discussion " Let's unrestrict Voltaic Key" "Are you crazy? They could untap er, something bad. Just unrestrict something that can't be abused, is there anything that lets you stack your library to get an infinite loop, ideally something that you can cast on turn 1?"

Not that Doomsday is good but I thought they were trying to keep a leash on mindless combo.

Where is the Portal announcement? They have done just about everything else right (Type 1.5 at long last). Are they afraid of Jungle Lions?

[Jebus]

Where is the Portal announcement? They have done just about everything else right (Type 1.5 at long last). Are they afraid of Jungle Lions?

Oh come on, one dramatic announcement at a time.

Look at it this way.  At this right, it's almost a sure thing.

[Jacob Orlove]

Yeah, so everyone was wrong. Closed.