B/R List

[Kowal]

That format gets four petals and four diamonds.

Parfait would fucking own your entire format.  That is, if Belcher didn't get four chromes, four petals, and all the second tier of acceleration.

[brendan]

That format gets four petals and four diamonds.

Parfait would fucking own your entire format.  That is, if Belcher didn't get four chromes, four petals, and all the second tier of acceleration.

And 4 enlightened tutors. The white silver bullet deck could obviously be very good, even without replenish. I guess that's the reason Tax is gone: to neutre mono white control's draw engine.

[BreathWeapon]

Ok, in all honesty does any one think that Burning Wish deserves to be on the Banned List? Considering that Death Wish immediately took its place in Long and Steve managed to T8 with it at Gencon, Burning Wish really does look odd on the B&R list. I'm willing to bet that if we went back in time and used Death Wish in place of Burning Wish in the original Long lists they'd be just as strong, if not stronger, based on its synergy with Dark Ritual, an expanded Wish Board and the removal of Chromatic Sphere for ESG or other suitable Mana Accelerants.

Any Takers?.

Didn't Steve run Mono-Blue at Gen Con?

As for Death Wish being better than Burning Wish, I'd say that's a tough argument to push.  If it really was just as good, Death Long would be nearly as strong as the original Long, which it isn't.  There is definitely synergy with ritual, but I'd take the lower/red mana cost any day.

Unless I'm mistaken, I thought Steve placed in a T8 with Death Long during one of the Vintage side events.

Death Long isn't as strong as Long because of the absence of LED and not Burning Wish.

[Gabethebabe]

I don´t think that keeping Entomb restricted is an error of the DCI. Random turn 1 wins is not what you want (Ritual-Entomb-Animate Dead)

I share the happiness of these changes. But I think that 1.5 will quickly be broken.

[Ric_Flair]

Here is my take: They saw the amazing rise in popularity of Vintage and wanted to make a cheaper more balanced Vintage, so they are trying out a revamped 1.5. It is going to be "budget" Vintage. Look at the all the cards that are banned--Bazaar, Mana Drain, Mishra's Workshop--1.5 is now officially the budget format with awesome cards. What a great idea! WotC did an excellent job. Everything was 100% correct. THANKS!

[Sheik al Kaji]

Gabethebabe:

That "Rit-Entomb-Animate" only works if you also have a Bazaar and a non-land source of black mana in your hand.

What are the chances of assembing everything in your hand first turn?

[Jander78]

1.5 was already balanced.  Now it is completly a combo format.

I would be fine with the separation if they didn't axe the 1.5 format as it exists.  I was really against the separation of the lists and this is exactly why.  They nuetered every single competative deck in 1.5 (sub Mono-R Burn).   Control lost drains, Dragon lost Bazaar, Workshop, etc.  The only real kicker is that 1.5 is the new die roll format because Belcher and Long are very easy to make with all of the acceleration they have unrestricted.

[jpmeyer]

I'm assuming Metalworker is banned because it is INSANE in Ravager Affinity:

Turn 1, Ancient Tomb, Ravager
Turn 2, artifact land, Metalworker, attack (19)
Turn 3, revel 5 cards for 10 mana, Skullclamp, Arcbound Worker, Clamp, draw 2, Frogmire, Clamp, sac, draw 2, Vault of Whispers, Disciple of the Vault, Ravager, Clamp, draw 2, ping 1, Arcbound Worker, Clamp, ping, draw 2, Myr Enforcer, Clamp, sac, ping, draw 2, Clamp Metalworker, sac, ping, draw 2, etc.

Or, leave Metalworker alive and repeat this every turn.

[Zeke]

Except that ancient tomb is banned because of that reason (and tinker,, and gobbos, and almost every other deck in the format).

Man, extended is just getting worse and worse, and 1.5 is looking better and better.   Go go budget players!

[jpmeyer]

Then City of Traitors (I was referring to 1.5 where you can play Ancient Tomb)

[jazzykat]

Here is my take: They saw the amazing rise in popularity of Vintage and wanted to make a cheaper more balanced Vintage, so they are trying out a revamped 1.5. It is going to be "budget" Vintage. Look at the all the cards that are banned--Bazaar, Mana Drain, Mishra's Workshop--1.5 is now officially the budget format with awesome cards. What a great idea! WotC did an excellent job. Everything was 100% correct. THANKS!

Your enthusiasm almost seems sarcastic but I have to seriously agree with this quote. Although, I must confess that I don't share your enthusiasm for the change for I always felt that 1.5 was a peculiar cousin of T1.
Seeing so many defining cards axed makes it interesting to say the least but the nostalgic feeling is somewhat lost (but that is still why we have T1!!!!!!!!!!!)

 Overall I am very pleased with the separation of the lists and 1.5 can now be called a seriously budgetized T1. In fact it gives it a crazy rogue flavor now. So much so perhaps, that I may go throw together a "bad" deck and see how far I get in the next 1.5 tourney  

[ChrisTJs27]

Exactly. Metalworker and Skullclamp were preemptive bans in Extended to deal with Affinity being absolutely broken! And with Skullclamp banned in the new 1.5 (which I don't agree with), there's only one format you can play with four of this card. Thank god that 1.x gets a rotation in 2005. Only one more PTQ season with TE, Urza's Block and MBC. Then the madness will end.

I'm really happy to see a seperation of the lists myself. However, I think WotC should have done a better job regarding what to ban in the new 1.5. Aside from what was already banned, they simply added the 1.x banned list. Personally, I don't think that Oath of Druids, Hermit Druid, Worldgorger Dragon, Mana Drain (though I see why they did), Metalworker, Skullclamp and Vampiric Tutor need to be banned. I thought that Land Tax didn't at first either, but I understand why. Likewise, Doomsday should be on that banned list along with some of the fast mana (i.e. LED). Otherwise, I'm extremely happy with how this turned out. We have a brand new format to discover on our hands! Ultimately, good job WotC!

And with the seperation of lists of course, Vintage gets some long lost cards. Wow. I have only owned one Fork since I opened it in a booster! Interesting to see if this will see more play. Doomsday I question and I wonder why Regrowth didn't get unrestricted since you can play 8 Regrowth's in "1.5" (Eternal Witness), 4 in Extended and 4 in Standard. Oh well. Still happy to see that some innocent cards were released.

[Matt]

Doomsday I question and I wonder why Regrowth didn't get unrestricted since you can play 8 Regrowth's in "1.5" (Eternal Witness), 4 in Extended and 4 in Standard. Oh well. Still happy to see that some innocent cards were released.

Because Regrowth is only as good as the cards you're returning, and with stuff like Ancestral Recall and Time Walk in the format, letting type one players have four is too much.

[LotusHead]

FORK!!!

Sorry for the lack of content of this post, but........



FORK!!!


Those DCI guys are friggin geniouses!

I had a friend who played with 4 Brainguysers in his type 1 deck, and I couldn't care less.

FORK!!!!!!

[Smmenen]

People are asking about Entomb, but no one has asked the more important question - why leave Stroke of Genius on the list!?

[VGB]

People are asking about Entomb, but no one has asked the more important question - why leave Stroke of Genius on the list!?

Reset + High Tide.

Maybe because it is much more splashable.  I can definitely see combo decks abusing Stroke, but Geyser's UU is awful tough in this format outside of blue-based control.

-edit
 and oh yeah, Stroke is Wishable, so you could theoretically play 7.

[TheFram]

<minor complaints>
Some of the 1.5 bans seem not to take into account that STP and FoW are in that format. Oath is really not that great with plow so prevalent since youre sorta forced to oath for Morphling. Hermit Druid is much weaker in a format with StP and Force also.

W/ bazaar gone, banning dragon seems pointless, especially while leaving belcher in the format and unrestricting Chrome, Petal, LED, and E. Tutor.

I sorta agree with the recruiter banning, but only sorta. Everything else seems fine, but I wish Voltaic Key had come of the Vintage list.
</minor complaints>

Oh, and they split the lists. Sweeeet.

[Smmenen]

Yeah - I mean, we have been asking them to split the lists for a LONG time now.  I just accepted the connected lists as a practical inevitability.  But they actually did it.

People should write in and tell them that you are pleased.  That will make a good impression - especially to counter all the negativity that the Source will write in.  We need to reinforce postive actions.

[Milton]

People are asking about Entomb, but no one has asked the more important question - why leave Stroke of Genius on the list!?

Dragon decks, maybe?

[Garvman]

We at the source do not have an issue with the seperating of the lists, so much as with the extent of the changes.... Fine, seperate the lists, but why destroy every deck in the format with the bannings, only to make long a 1.5 deck by allowing 4x chrome, diamond, petal..?

[cssamerican]

Long was broken because it had 4 Yawgmoth's Wills. That card has been banned in Type 1.5 so quit worrying about Long in 1.5. Hell, you don't even have access to Long's backup plan...Draw Sevens.

[Klep]

People are asking about Entomb, but no one has asked the more important question - why leave Stroke of Genius on the list!?

My guess would be because it's an instant.  Perhars they fest the difference in speeds was great enough of a power boost to keep it restricted.

[Smmenen]

IMO, Braingyser is more powerful than Stroke.  Not more playable becuase of Dragon, Wishes, etc. - but more powerful, certainly.

Does anyone HONESTLY think that stroke will see any play? According to pip's data, no one plays with it now.  Unresricted it is less threatening than Fork.  So again, WHY? And why would you even whisper the word Entomb before Stroke?

[Diakonov]

IMO, Braingyser is more powerful than Stroke.  Not more playable becuase of Dragon, Wishes, etc. - but more powerful, certainly.

Does anyone HONESTLY think that stroke will see any play? According to pip's data, no one plays with it now.  Unresricted it is less threatening than Fork.  So again, WHY? And why would you even whisper the word Entomb before Stroke?

I can't really complain, since they did in fact remove four whole precious cards from the B/R, but I agree with you wholeheartedly.  

Mind Over Matter should probably come off that list too.

[brianb]

This b/r list is the best news in a long time!  They left a healthy format healthy and gave back some fun cards that are unlikely to cause trouble.  Their choices for the new 1.5 weren't exactly the ones I would have made, but the overall idea of separating 1.5 and making it a true "budget vintage" was right on target--and for a first crack, it seems they did an okay job.  This is just a starting point anyway.  If they continue to show some love for the format, it WILL be widely played, which will give them plenty of data to refine the list.  If belcher (or anything else) is a problem, they'll fix it one way or another.

Someone suggested writing Wizards to commend them on the positive moves.  What is the best e-mail address to send props or flames to?  Is it Maro or some other place?

[BreathWeapon]

They probably figured it would be best to Unrestrict a small group of cards, wait for a reaction to see how things went, and then prepare to Unrestrict more candidates in the next 3 months. Its always best to cut change into small bite sized pieces, IMO.

As far as the 1.5 list goes, will any one not be playing Belcher? Even with Land Tax gone, Parfait with Isochron Scepters and Tithe still looks attractive.  It will be interesting to see how Crucible of Worlds and Null Rod affect the format. At any rate, maybe WOTC will simply merge 1.5 and 1.X and revamp the banned list to make a superb format for the poor and unwashed masses?

Also, with all of the sudden enthusiasm for 1.5 will Zherbus return to us a 1.5 discussion forum?

It's certainly a Brave New World.

[MrZuccinniHead]

did anyone else notice that with Lion's Eye Diamond, Burning Wish, Mox Diamond, and Lotus Pedal unrestricted in 1.5...you can make a really powerful combo deck with 4 diminishing returns and tendrils?

[SpikeyMikey]

I don't see the changes affecting the T1 scene at all.  Fork is interesting, and if Sligh were viable, I'd be masturbating over 4 Forks with 4 PoP, but frankly, there isn't a deck out there that can use 1 Fork, let alone 4, and it's not enough to bring Sligh back from the dead.  Doomsday could've been unrestricted when they released the errata for LED, disallowing the use of it to pay for costs.  I guess technically, you could still use the combo(Lotus, LED, Regrowth, Timetwister, Stroke) by sacrificing lotus for twister and then responding by sacrificing LED, but honestly, I don't see the deck being uber broken.  As far as combo went, it was more on par with ReapLace or Dreams than it was with Academy or Trix.  Still, you might find a few people trying to break it.  It has interesting applications in Dragon, but I don't think it'll really strengthen the deck too much...  Geyser was a little surprising, until I realized how mana intensive it is for a sorcery, and that nobody had played with it in over a year.

[illuzion]

People should write in and tell them that you are pleased.  That will make a good impression - especially to counter all the negativity that the Source will write in.  We need to reinforce postive actions.

I think this is a fantastic idea.  Let them know they've done a good thing:

http://www.wizards.com/company/emailtoauthor.asp?author=Aaron%20Forsythe&headline=Un-Believable

And change the body, ya know.

[TheFram]

Maybe this is will bring down the prices on Bazaars, Drains and Shops a little. That'd be nice.