Burning wish in 4cc?

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I can't remember where but I recently remembered seeing a tournement report where the 4cc deck was running 1x burning wish.  It can act as a neat tool for even a few sideboard slots as well as the ability to re-use yawg wills if necessary (I realise this should rarely be an issue, however), or a willed timwalk, etc.  It could allow for balance to be moved to the sideboard so it isn't dead in less useful matchups but still around for the ones you need it in.  Also sbed deep analysis could be a usefull wish target for the control mirror.  Duress is a solid target for control mirror or against combo.  Perhaps even a wishable pyroclasm would be usefull in the fish matchup.  

I think it has the possibilty of becoming a solid addition to 4cc lists.  The questions are:

1: Should balance be run in 4cc?

2: If so, what modifications should be made to the md/sb to accomodate it?

3: What possible changes could this make in any particular matchups, pre and post side?

Note: Assume a fairly normal build with 3 scrying and a 4-5 fetch/ 3 tundra/3 underground/2 volcanic/2city (and of course the 5 strips and 6 artifact acceleration) manabase.  Removal could be 2 stp and 1 fire/ice.  I don't think anyone should have a problem with this but differences in builds could be discussed if necessary.  (I'm not sure what to do about sb choices here, but assume  we have at least 3-4 slots to work with for the 2nd wish engine)

So, lets hear it.

[rvs]

Burning Wish is slow, and therefore, not very flexible.

The only advantage I see in running it is that I don't have to MD Mind Twist, Balance and Mystical tutor anymore.

[Kerz]

Its actually a pretty cool idea. You can even sideboard a Tinker to get CoW or a large man. It also lets you cut the three cards from the MD that Rudy mentioned. It might be worth testing.

[Jebus]

Zombie Shakespeare has been running it in his main for a while now and has like it quite a bit.  He's spoken about it here before, but I don't recall the thread.

[Elric]

Since I remember the thread where Zombie Shakespeare posted his report, I thought I'd just link to it, because it was quite a while ago.

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=301814&highlight=#301814

(edit- fixed)

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Burning Wish is slow, and therefore, not very flexible.

The only advantage I see in running it is that I don't have to MD Mind Twist, Balance and Mystical tutor anymore.

Isn't that quite significant?  Just by running the single burning wish up to 3 maindeck slots are freed up for additonal removal, tools, draw, or w/e, and I don't find 1R at sorcery speed to be that bad when it gets me something as game swinging a type 1 sorcery tailered to the specific situation.

Its actually a pretty cool idea. You can even sideboard a Tinker to get CoW or a large man. It also lets you cut the three cards from the MD that Rudy mentioned. It might be worth testing.

Not sure about the tinker idea since I don't plan on inserting fat into my 4cc and thus the only reall target would be COW.  I do think I will test it.

Besides the wish, what else should be added to the maindeck if twist, balance, and mystical are cut?  Some ideas are: additonal fire/ice or stp, additonal scrying, additional shamen (quite meta dependant)

Since I remember the thread where Zombie Shakespeare posted his report, I thought I'd just link to it, because it was quite a while ago.

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=301814&highlight=#301814

Thanks alot.  That is indeed the report I was referring to; I just had no idea who wrote it or what it was called .

[Zherbus]

It can act as a neat tool for even a few sideboard slots as well as the ability to re-use yawg wills if necessary (I realise this should rarely be an issue, however), or a willed timwalk, etc.

You really only need to resolve Will once.

It could allow for balance to be moved to the sideboard so it isn't dead in less useful matchups but still around for the ones you need it in.

The problem is that having the mana to wish for Balance requires you be able to use 2 off colors. It also requires EITHER 4 mana (which isn't good if your trying to Balance lands) or that you seperate them by a turn, therefore giving your opponent ample time and warning to adjust the board.

Also sbed deep analysis could be a usefull wish target for the control mirror.

This is probably the best aspect of it, but again with mana enough to do this, you can easily just Cunning Wish for a Scrying.

Duress is a solid target for control mirror or against combo.

RB1 is not really that great of a casting cost for Duress. Even if you split it out over two turns, it does the same thing with Balance in giving them a turn worth of warning.

Perhaps even a wishable pyroclasm would be usefull in the fish matchup.

I question a sorceries effectiveness against manlands, though it'll take out some dorks to be sure.

1: Should balance be run in 4cc?

I can't believe I'm still answering this: Yes.

2: If so, what modifications should be made to the md/sb to accomodate it?

That's the biggest issue, the SB real estate is hard to accomidate because of Cunning Wish already.

3: What possible changes could this make in any particular matchups, pre and post side?

It is one card and nothing it would fetch seems terrible ball-breaking.

[Milton]

This would require a total bastardization of the sideboard to be effective.  I don't see how that is practical.

[Shock Wave]

1: Should balance be run in 4cc?

I can't believe I'm still answering this: Yes.

2: If so, what modifications should be made to the md/sb to accomodate it?

I really wonder under what circumstances one with a grain of sense would cut Balance. Perhaps if creatures ceased to exist... ?  

[Kowal]

Well, people would also have to stop playing lands.  And they would have to cut cards from their deck too, to avoid being mind twisted for 1W.

[waSP]

I dunno, but Burning Wish could provide a lot more utility out of the heavy use of Scrying than tailoring one's sideboard to it.  You get a 4cc Time Walk if you drew it early.  Will gets duressed or countered, it comes back after Scrying.  You need to Balance again.  Woohoo.  If your draw of choice wasn't Scrying, the suggestion would likely warrant little discussion.

The 2 freed slots could go to Tinker -> Colossus  Or maybe not.

[Nameless]

Of all the reasons I see here to use a Burning Wish...  I get the same benefits and none of the downside by just using a Regrowth.  What?!?  Regrowth?  God forbid...  Yea.  In my Keeper (yea KEEPER, bitches!  Regrowth is the 5th color!) I've always used Regrowth, and I've never complained once about drawing it.

[Wollblad]

I agree with waSP that Burning Wish is strong in combination with Skeletal Scrying. Thus you only need to take up one sideboard slot for Balance which I think is the card that should make room for Burning Wish. Of course Burning Wish will not be very strong until you have resolved a Scrying (or a Will), but in my experience it's in most cases no worse than Balance and since it is so much stronger in middle/late game, it's inclusion over Balance is in my oppinion indisputable.

You really only need to resolve Will once

Zherbus is correct if you assume that you resolve Will in middle- or late-game, but you can gain considerable advantage by resolving a "small" Will early on. People doesn't normally do this since they instead want to wait until they can resolve a game-breaking Will later. The issue here is that it is much less costly in terms of future brokeness to resolve a "small" Will if you can get your Will back.

[Zherbus]

So you can really only reliably get Balance since that's the only Sorcery in your SB? That makes no sense at all.

[Wollblad]

@Zherbus
Of course it makes sense. Your burning Wish is at it's worst a Balance for {W}{2} instead of a Balance for at it's best. That's a large difference since the Burning Wish might be a second Yawgmoths Will or a Decree of Justice while Balance might only be Balance and in many situations unplayable where Burning Wish might supply you with a game-winning spell.

[Toad]

Who needs a second Yawgmoth's Will?

[Bram]

Indeed. If your first Will didn't swing the game in your favor, then chances are you're probably not on your way to victory anyway. And Balance for 2RW sounds pretty gosh darn afwul to me. One of Balance's great strenghts lies in it's ability to come out  quickly, and for some reason I don't associate '2RW' with 'fast'.

Add to that the aforementioned complications in accomodating the 'cut' (but vital!) cards in the relatively tight SB, and I do not think you're onto something with this. But by all means: prove me wrong in testing.

Kerz' idea to Burning Wish for Tinker in order to find a CoW sounds, erm, impractical at best. Might as well run it MD then...

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Of all the reasons I see here to use a Burning Wish...  I get the same benefits and none of the downside by just using a Regrowth.  What?!?  Regrowth?  God forbid...  Yea.  In my Keeper (yea KEEPER, bitches!  Regrowth is the 5th color!) I've always used Regrowth, and I've never complained once about drawing it.

So, instead of batardising a few slots in the sideboard we nuke the entire mana base?  Burning wish offers more utiliy options anyways.

I don't think that using burning wish for balance is that bad.  Yes, balance isn't as good at 2WR, but it is still game breaking when you need it.  Usually when you need to balance it is against non-control decks, and 4 mana isn't that difficult when you don't require counter backup.  I can easily see this play being made on turn 3 with lands+a mox or even earlier with more acceleration.  (if earlier it would probably be for the twist/geddon effect rather than removal).

As I did mention in my first post, the ability to re-use will should rarely matter, but in some situations it could be golden.

Milton: Devoting 3-4 slots to the second wish engine is worth it; IMO you gain more than you lose.  For me, I will probably cut the flametoung kavus from my sb to accomdate it, or maybe some of the cunning wish engine that I don't use very often (I havn't been that happy with vampiric or the wishable scrying lately).

[Zherbus]

I don't think that using burning wish for balance is that bad. Yes, balance isn't as good at 2WR, but it is still game breaking when you need it. Usually when you need to balance it is against non-control decks, and 4 mana isn't that difficult when you don't require counter backup. I can easily see this play being made on turn 3 with lands+a mox or even earlier with more acceleration. (if earlier it would probably be for the twist/geddon effect rather than removal).

The problem is that having the mana to wish for Balance requires you be able to use 2 off colors. It also requires EITHER 4 mana (which isn't good if your trying to Balance lands) or that you seperate them by a turn, therefore giving your opponent ample time and warning to adjust the board.

To add to this:

1) "non-control decks" are basically mana-raping Mishra's Workshop aggro or lock decks, 3rd turn-goldifishing FCG, and combo decks that don't care. What exactly are these "non-control decks" that WR2 is convenient for a casting cost?

2) For the millionth time, it's not just non-control decks that you need Balance against.

3)

[Vegeta2711]

Yes, balance isn't as good at 2WR, but it is still game breaking when you need it

No it's not. 2 extra mana, including an extra colored in the cost, makes a huge difference and weakens the card quite a bit. Why? Because instead of casting it when you want to, you get to deal with the bullshit of fetching it. Considering 4 non artifact mana is a lot in this format and nearly every deck runs strips, this is a real issue.

Against 4c, it's hard to cut off the white for Balance, since it only requires one W. Now once I figure out you need the red as well, it's much easier to focus on cutting off a color.

And of course in the off-chance you decide to spread the cost out over 2 turns in case you are playing vs. a deck w/ counters. Then your opponent knows and can usually change his gameplan more to hurt you for casting that Balance.

I don't even play the deck and I can't even imagine Balance being outside of the MD.

EDIT: Zherbus beat me too it, damn.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Well, If balance shouln't be moved to the sb, should twist?  What should be cut from the md to make room?  Possibly the 3rd cunning wish?

Zherbus: Balancing Act doesn't let you abuse artifact mana sources to break the symmetry .

Also note that I could make the same argument not to run cunning wish. (read:casting cost wise, at least, althought he instant speed does make a difference.)  Stp for 2UW?  Vampiric at 2UB?  No thx.  The point is that being able to fetch a variety of cards to get the correct one when you need it outweighs the tempo loss of paying an additional 1R for it.

[Jacob Orlove]

Moved to open T1.

[Zombie Shakespeare]

I have been playing a single Burning Wish in my 4CC builds on and off for well over a year. My most recent version is listed in the URL provided by Elric. At the time it was essentially Zherbus' build minus 1 Gorilla Shaman and 3 SB cards for Timetwister, Pyroclasm and Haunting Echoes.

I've never played Burning Wish as a substitute for Balance, Mind Twist or any other staple sorcery in 4CC. Instead it was there as a means to replay those key sorceries that had been RFG via either a Will or the Skeletal Scryings. As I stated in my tournament report, Burning Wish at times allowed me to play Yawgmoth's Will a little earlier then I normally would or grab Time Walk late in the game when I had for few Angels in the board to press my advantage.

The SB sorceries are up for debate based on what you encounter in your area. Pyroclasm got the most play of the three I've been using. Haunting Echoes was somewhat of an "I Win More" card but versus Workshop could completely hose them. Timetwister was there to pull out a losing game but I never really played it too much.

[JuJu]

Also note that I could make the same argument not to run cunning wish. (read:casting cost wise, at least, althought he instant speed does make a difference.) Stp for 2UW? Vampiric at 2UB? No thx. The point is that being able to fetch a variety of cards to get the correct one when you need it outweighs the tempo loss of paying an additional 1R for it.

Wrong. If you haven't figured out why you should play Balance maindeck. You're playing the wrong deck.

[Nameless]

Of all the reasons I see here to use a Burning Wish...  I get the same benefits and none of the downside by just using a Regrowth.  What?!?  Regrowth?  God forbid...  Yea.  In my Keeper (yea KEEPER, bitches!  Regrowth is the 5th color!) I've always used Regrowth, and I've never complained once about drawing it.

So, instead of batardising a few slots in the sideboard we nuke the entire mana base?  Burning wish offers more utiliy options anyways.

First off, my mana base is just as stable as any 4CC deck.  Second, you can't even touch the utility provided by Regrowth compaired to Burning Wish.  You can't Ancestral/Regrowth/Ancestral or Walk/Regrowth/Walk in the first couple of turns with Burning Wish.  It's plays like this that make or break games, and while you certainly wouldn't want to blow everything in a Will that early, Regrowth is just perfect.

In addition to that though...  You can use Will as a Duress, since they will always counter it if they can, all you need is a Regrowth.  What can you do with Regrowth while casting Will?  Put a Drain back in your hand, or a Wasteland, or about a dozen other trinkets to help seal the deal.  But that's just talking about Regrowth with Will...  On it's own merits it trumps a ton of spells as I mentioned with Time Walk, Ancestral, or even an early Strip or Counter.

But my point isn't to talk about how good I feel that Regrowth is...  The point is this:

What does Burning Wish offer that Regrowth doesn't?  Regrowth requires swapping 1 land for a Tropical Island.  Burning Wish requires fucking up your already tight Sideboard and messing with cards that should already be in the main deck.  To me the answer is obvious, it's either Regrowth or neither.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Regrowth allows you to re-use spells you have already cast (and requires splashing another colour in an already tight mana base).  Not only can burning wish re-used willed/scryed cards, but with just a few sideboard slots you can use it to easily fetch any sorcery the particular situation requires.  For me, the FTKs are unessesary, as I don't see alot of workshop aggro/madness, and some of the cunning wish tech just isn't working out, so I have slots I can devote to it.  Even if I didn't I would consider making room just to have such a powerful tool at me disposal.

JuJu: How does what you said in any way relate to what you quoted from me?  Also, the balance issue has already been talked about and I don't see how your comment added anything.

[Klep]

Also note that I could make the same argument not to run cunning wish. (read:casting cost wise, at least, althought he instant speed does make a difference.)

And that's largely it.  You seem to be vastly underestimating the difference between instant and sorcery speed.  The advantage of being able to cast Cunning Wish on your opponent's end step cannot be overstressed.

[goober]

with just a few sideboard slots

The sideboards are ridiculously tight, and it isn't worth wasting 3 or 4 slots for a 1 of in your deck.  Only being able to run 1 makes it too random to completely alter your sideboard.  There are so many things you can add if you dislike FTK (more RnR, Fire/Ice, Shamen, or anything).  The instant speed is also so vital, because this adds 2 to the cost, Cunning adds an end step to it.

[MolotDET]

I have a question...

Lets say you actually need Balance (which does seem to happen fairly often) and you only have Demonic or Mystical Tutor in hand.  It then costs you          - or -          + a card disadvantage and a draw, to cast a freakin spell that should be in your maindeck because it is quite possibally the most powerful spell in the game.  Why would you do that???

I don't get it...

I mean burning wish by itself is not really a terrible idea but what it does to your SB by adding it is not good.  Shit you really don't even have the room to put the balance in there let alone other considerations that would make playing Burning Wish worthwhile.

Keeper or 4CC is a very tight deck you really have no room for fancy tricks and shenannagins.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Ok guys, you've convinced me.  I may still try testing it to see how it works out, but the end conclusion of the thread seems to be this: the conditional sorceries need to be kept in the maindeck simply because of their raw power due to being undercosted and the sideboard slots are probably more useful elsewhere.  Re-using willed/scryed cards will not happen often enough to matter.  1R at sorcery speed is just too much....