[Dragon] Which build is better?

[darkchild]

First of all, let me start by congratulating Corey Canfield on winning the myriadgames tournament with his build of dragon. I have been noticing lately that dragon has taken a split down two different ways on how it is build and was wondering if the community would like to dicuss both build and their pros and cons. First of all, let me present both builds.

myriadgames
1st Place: Corey Canfield

Dragon

4 Worldgorger Dragon
4 Squee Goblin Nabob
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will
4 Animate Dead
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Necromancy
2 Compulsion
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Crop Rotation
1 Ambassador Laquatus
1 Sundering Titan
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard:
4 Null Rod
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Verdant Force
1 Sliver Queen
1 Sundering Titan
1 Coffin Purge
1 Deep Analysis

8th Place [Dragon] T8 - Pittsburgh
(I could not find out whose decklist is belongs to, but if the owner could drop me a pm, I would gladly edit his name in.)

4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
3 Xantid Swarm
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
3 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Ambassador Laquatus
3 Animate Dead
2 Dance of the Dead
3 Necromancy
2 Cunning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Entomb
1 Crop Rotation
2 Intuition
2 Deep Analysis
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt

Sideboard:
1 Xantid Swarm
2 Sliver Queen
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Naturalize
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Stifle
1 Rebuild
1 Coffin Purge
1 Tranquil Domain
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Differences between both decks

Number of animate effects
Corey's deck run 7 without any dance of the dead while the other runs 8, does anybody who runs 7 feel that there is difficultly in finding it to go off? Personally, I run 8 due to meddling mage being present in my metagame forcing me to run a variety of animate effect (I do not live in Europe nor America and face an unstable meta where it is half power and half not).

Complusion
Corey's deck ran two main, while the other did not run any at all. Does anybody find difficulty in getting the mana to run it effectively, as dragon runs on a very low mana count (19 to 20), I often find complusion difficult to abuse and the only benefit is the discard outlet which can be replace by cards like entomb and crop rotation (getting bazaar).

Lim-Dul's Vault
Many dragon experts has already emphasis the merit of running this card as it allows the deck to setup itself for a next time win. Other then having a slightly difficult casting cost, the card is excellent, however, due to the tight constrant in dragon, my personal opinion is that it does not make the cut.

Stifle
The second decklist runs 3 copies of it and from my testing i have found it to be excellent as it allows you to gain a tempo advantage as it forces the opponent to waste a land drop. I often feel that I would rather have bazaar as a second land drop and if my opponent attempts to wasteland my bazaaar using his second land drop, I could stifle and have the possibility of going off next turn while still avoiding mana drain ( Of course, barring going second and opponent having lotus or sapphire)

Crop Rotation
Both decks uses it now, however i still do not like losing a land and without squees in hand, getting bazzar does not get you a lot of card advantage. I hope that experts could enligthen me on the issue.

Intuition and Deep Analysis
Corey's deck runs 4 while the other runs 2 plus two deep analysis. I often find 4 intuitions too clunky and given that deep analysis also has synergy with bazaar, I would prefer running two each as sometimes the squee just would not come out and bazaar it not giving me any card advantage.

Entomb
This is also found in the second decklist and I think that it is a card wouldwhile running as it gets dragon, squee, deep analysis, Ambassador and other creatures like titan and force after sb.

Cunning Wish
Another big differences between the two decks is that the second one has a backup win con in cunning wish allowing it to go off even with bazaar in place but with dragon in the Graveyard.

Number of moxes to play
I have tested with all 5 and also only 3 on colour moxes and feel that running all 5 is not a nessecity during the early game, getting colour mana is very important. I understand the advantage of going off a turn early with a mox but feel that with all 5 moxes, there is a slight strain on the mana base.

Sideboard
Very big difference there as the second one is tuned with cunning wish in mind. I agree with dicemanx and shockwave that 3 null rods and 4 chalice is extremely important in the SB and at least 2 Verdent Forces and 2 Titans are also a staple. That would have taken up 11 spots leaving for cunning wish targets, which i think should be stroke (win con), coffin purge, chain of vapour and rebuild. I am very hesitent on the SB and would apprepriciate any help that can be given.


Similarities

Duress vs Xantid
Both decks conclude that xantid is better and I personally feel the same as it give better protection against control. Against Workshop decks, Xantid may be useless, however duress may not be too useful too with welder running around everywhere.

Basic lands
Both decks runs two though Corey prefer two swamps over 1 island and 1 swamp. I prefer the later as i run stifles while those that do not may prefer the first.

Now that I have compared both decks there are a two questions that I would like to raise.

1. Is Pern deed still needed in the SB? From testing, it has very terrible synergy with Chalice of the void and I have taken it out. What matchup odes the help againsts? Workshop? My feelings is that if i have 3 mana to cast deed against workshop, I would probable be safe already as Workshop decks are at their best in the early game (turn 1 and 2)

2. Forgive my stupidness but how can i stop blessings from occuring without coffin purge purging it in response?


I cant think of any further questions but would like to thank especially DicemanX and ShockWave who have contributed a lot into dragon and if they could kindly give their thoughts, I would greatly appreciated it. This is my first time writing a discussion and please forgive me if I omitted to credit somebody or did not do an excellent job, Thanks!

[cssamerican]

I often find complusion difficult to abuse and the only benefit is the discard outlet which can be replace by cards like entomb and crop rotation (getting bazaar).

I personally play with two types of Dragon decks, BUG Dragon and BG Spoils-Dragon. In my opinion, the only reason to play BUG Dragon is Compulsion; otherwise I would just play BG Spoils-Dragon exclusively. Compulsion doesn’t just give you another discard outlet, it gives you another card advantage engine and a way to go for the kill without milling your hand a way. Both of these issues can be very critical in games versus control elements, and shouldn’t be overlooked or underestimated in their importance to the way the deck operates. Most new players to Dragon want to cut Compulsion because they believe Xantid Swarms will allow them to mill their hand away without any worries. Unfortunately this is not always the case, in many games you opponent will play a common card such as Platinum Angel or an uncommon one such as True Believer. It is in these cases Compulsion allows you to cycle through your deck and find the answer while your going off, instead of wasting precious turns looking for an answer prior to initiating the dragon loop.

Is Pern deed still needed in the SB? From testing, it has very terrible synergy with Chalice of the void and I have taken it out. What matchup odes the help againsts? Workshop? My feelings is that if i have 3 mana to cast deed against workshop, I would probable be safe already as Workshop decks are at their best in the early game (turn 1 and 2)

Pernicious Deed has always been used because it can handle anything, even random junk like True Believer:) However, I have been using Echoing Truth as of late and have been very satisfied by the results. So I don’t think the card is sacred, but if it is cut it does need a replacement.

Forgive my stupidness but how can i stop blessings from occuring without coffin purge purging it in response?

To win against a blessing trigger is simple, start the dragon loop cycle through your deck with Compulsion putting Ancestral Recall in hand then mill them as usual. In response to the blessing trigger, mill the remainder of their library then cast Ancestral Recall before the blessing trigger resolves. They will have no cards in their library when the Ancestral Recall resolves and you will win the game.

[Diaonic]

First and foremost thanks to everyone who has congratulated me and thanks to Dan for putting on such a great tournament.

Number of animate effects
Corey's deck run 7 without any dance of the dead while the other runs 8, does anybody who runs 7 feel that there is difficultly in finding it to go off? Personally, I run 8 due to meddling mage being present in my met game forcing me to run a variety of animate effect (I do not live in Europe nor America and face an unstable meta where it is half power and half not).

I feel that 7 animate spells is adequate, I have to agree with you and looking back on it. I would run 2 animate dead, 2 dance and 3 necromancy just for added redundancy.

Compulsion
Corey's deck ran two main, while the other did not run any at all. Does anybody find difficulty in getting the mana to run it effectively, as dragon runs on a very low mana count (19 to 20), I often find compulsion difficult to abuse and the only benefit is the discard outlet which can be replace by cards like entomb and crop rotation (getting bazaar).

Il be totally honest here, I’m not Adam Bowers and I can’t win with dragon running 10 lands and 4 bazaars. I just don’t have those skills. So again to keep the consistency I’m running 2 compulsion.

Lim-Dul's Vault
Many dragon experts has already emphasis the merit of running this card as it allows the deck to setup itself for a next time win. Other then having a slightly difficult casting cost, the card is excellent, however, due to the tight constraint in dragon, my personal opinion is that it does not make the cut.

I’m going to say this once; when you cast this card you win the game. Being able to setup your entire draw for 1 turn during your opponents turn. It also has the added benefit of pitching to Force of Will.

Stifle
The second deck list runs 3 copies of it and from my testing I have found it to be excellent as it allows you to gain a tempo advantage as it forces the opponent to waste a land drop. I often feel that I would rather have bazaar as a second land drop and if my opponent attempts to wasteland my bazaar using his second land drop, I could stifle and have the possibility of going off next turn while still avoiding mana drain (Of course, barring going second and opponent having lotus or sapphire)

Stifle is a great card, I won’t get into all the uses it has and how it can be game breaking. But in dragon your racing your opponents a majority of the time or playing threats they need to counter. Stifle doesn’t assist you in either of these aspects and did not make the cut with my build. I would rather have cards that help me win faster or make my deck more consistent.

Crop Rotation
Both decks uses it now, however I still do not like losing a land and without squees in hand, getting bazaar does not get you a lot of card advantage. I hope that experts could enlighten me on the issue.

This is bazaar #5; this card can turn bad draws into good ones real fast. It also has an added element of surprise when your opponents waste your bayou and you sac it to Crop rotation fetching a bazaar.

Intuition and Deep Analysis
Corey's deck runs 4 while the other runs 2 plus two deep analysis. I often find 4 intuitions too clunky and given that deep analysis also has synergy with bazaar, I would prefer running two each as sometimes the squee just would not come out and bazaar it not giving me any card advantage.

When you cast Intuition you win the game. If I could go back in time would replace 1 intuition with 1 Entomb. Countless times I could win on turn 1 if I had a dragon in the graveyard and only way to get him there was an intuition or try my luck at bazaaring him away. But If I had a turn 1 entomb I would have been in better shape.

Sundering Titan – I decided to go with 1 titan main deck. I know my 4cc matchup is terrible and having a main deck answer to that improves it substantially. And a 7/10 beat stick vs. any other deck in the format is not bad.

If I were going to a tournament tomorrow this is the build I would run.

Dragon

4 Worldgorger Dragon
4 Squee Goblin Nabob
3 Intuition
4 Force of Will
2 Animate Dead
2 Dance of the Dead
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Necromancy
2 Compulsion
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mox Ruby
1 Entomb
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Crop Rotation
1 Ambassador Laquatus
1 Sundering Titan
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard:
4 Null Rod
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Verdant Force
1 Sliver Queen
1 Sundering Titan
1 Coffin Purge
1 Deep Analysis

Thanks again
Corey Canfield

-Diaonic-

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

First of all I would like to say that compulsion IS GOD.  I think the optimal number is 3 or 4.  Although it is useless it multiples, if you already have one you can just cycle the other ones you draw.  Being able to keep cards in hand while going off is important.  Also note that while bazaar requires at least 1 squee not to produce card disadvantage, compulsion can be good even without squee by simply discarding excess mana sources, animate effects, etc.

Also: Dragon lists are very tight but I like being able to run cunning wish as a catch all that lets you answer any hate cards or problem permenants, etc.

I think all 5 moxen are necessary.  The extra acceleration is needed to help make up for bazaar taking a land drop or to get out first turn compulsion, etc.

4 intuition is indeed very clunky.  2 is probably the best.  The most common use I would see for it is to get squees for your draw engine but sometimes it can also be used to find a dragon or animate or w/e to go off.  The card is mana intensive but also quite versatile.

I don't like crop rotation because I feel it lends the deck to be too focussed around bazaar- I would probably cut it for compulsion #3 in the first list.

3 md stifles is not something I agree with.  It is obviously necessary in  list #2 to protect the bazzars as they are the only outlets, but as I already said compulsion should definately be run anyways.

Deep anal:  I find the card fairly slow although it ovbiously has it's merits against control.

# of animates: I would also lean towards 8 just to stay on the safe side that they are easy to find when you want them.

Entomb: I simply don't think it's strong enough to deserve a spot.  Ovbiously it could be useful in following the reanimator strategy or if you have an outlet out for grabbing a dragon, but it is rather narrow and doesn't fit with the main strategy of dicard outlets of the deck.  As it is restricted and 1 doesn't make much of a difference, It could probably be cut for a lim duls's or compulsion or w/e.

Edit: Agree that vault is also really good.  It probably merits 1-2 slots.

[BreathWeapon]

With Vault being "that awesome," has any one sat down and gone the distance with 4 of them MD? I keeping seeing them in 1-2 offs side by side with Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor, why not just bite the bullet and play 4 Vaults? Manabase issues?

As far as Intuition goes, I haven't been pleased with this card at all. Setting up the Grave Yard with Squees is dependant on Bazaar being in play or having sufficient Mana to Compulsion more than once a turn.

7xAnimates has served me well enough in times past. I rarely notice much of a difference anymore, and Dance of the Dead has terrible synergy with Xantid Swarm. If I was going to play the 8th Animate, I'd probably use Necromancy instead.

Cunning Wish is quite good, IMO. I've recently taken up a Scrivener list with 3xMD. I like the ability to Wish->Answer annoyances away like Chalice@2 with Chain of Vapor and Blood Moon with BEB.

Also of some interest, I've seen a couple players either MD or SB Tinker/Colossus (I forgot to ask) in Dragon as a surprise weapon. It's fairly potent, winning the game when your opponent is sitting back on a hand of BEBs, Coffin Purges or Tormod's Crypts. I can't attest to how practical it is, having not played it myself, but I thought it was interesting enough to mention.

[Whatever Works]

With Vault being "that awesome," has any one sat down and gone the distance with 4 of them MD? I keeping seeing them in 1-2 offs side by side with Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor, why not just bite the bullet and play 4 Vaults? Manabase issues?

Dicemanx runs 3 maindeck Lim-Dul's Vault, and no Demonic Tutor, and he is the best dragon player I have ever met though Shockwave is very good i hear... The reason for running Vault is that it essentially ends the game on the spot. Life is rather irrelevent to dragon, because when its either going to combo and kill you or lose all its permanents, and lose anyway in that situation.

[BreathWeapon]

With Vault being "that awesome," has any one sat down and gone the distance with 4 of them MD? I keeping seeing them in 1-2 offs side by side with Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor, why not just bite the bullet and play 4 Vaults? Manabase issues?

Dicemanx runs 3 maindeck Lim-Dul's Vault, and no Demonic Tutor, and he is the best dragon player I have ever met though Shockwave is very good i hear... The reason for running Vault is that it essentially ends the game on the spot. Life is rather irrelevent to dragon, because when its either going to combo and kill you or lose all its permanents, and lose anyway in that situation.

I know why the card is good, I want to know why it isn't 4xMD good. If people were originally willing to default to 4xIntuition from DiceManX's primer, why wouldn't they be willing to do the same with Vault? What specificaly stops this card from being the 4xBack Bone of Dragon? All I can think of is Manabase issues and Chalice@2, which is steadily becoming a non-issue.

[dicemanx]

If people were originally willing to default to 4xIntuition from DiceManX's primer, why wouldn't they be willing to do the same with Vault? What specificaly stops this card from being the 4xBack Bone of Dragon?

Here's the thing. Dragon is a collection of miserably bad cards that somehow assemble together and allow you to outdraw control, outrace and outhate combo and aggro, or otherwise outwit your opponent’s solutions to your plan. It is almost mystifying how this deck is not only successful in high level metas, but also vies for top deck in the format. Perhaps it is surprising then when I say that most of the time, I’d rather run 0 copies of many cards (Intuition, Compulsion, Squee, Animates, Xantid Swarms, Lim-Dul’s Vault etc), but that of course is not possible. I find that running 3 copies seems to be a somewhat acceptable compromise. The only cards that I feel warrant running a maximum allowable number are Worldgorger Dragon, Bazaar of Baghdad, and Force of Will.

This is why I view cards like Deep Analysis, Entomb, Cunning Wish, Crop Rotation, or Stifle as not being optimal choices in this deck. They either lack sufficient punch, are inflexible, or they are not “globally synergistic�. The key to Dragon in my opinion is to let the deck guide you on a pathway that it has chosen for you in a particular game, which means that your cards have to have maximum flexibility whenever possible. Sometimes this means that the path will lead to nowhere and you will die a tragic death with nothing but useless Xantids, FoWs and Animates in your hand/play, but that is merely the nature of the deck and must be accepted, not fixed. Cards like Stifle, Crop Rotation, or Cunning Wish are trying to force the issue a bit too much. Stifle and Rotation might work towards establishing a Bazaar in play, but sometimes that’s not the best plan for the deck based on the cards that you end up drawing over the course of the game. Cunning Wish might help find solutions to problem cards on occasion, but you might find that their lack of synergy with many of the deck’s components to be a serious drawback. And Deep Analysis is very much underpowered in this deck. Getting a 2 for 1 deal is not stellar to begin with given the fact that most of the cards in the deck are pretty terrible, and you also want to avoid such a heavy dependency on Bazaar – running so many WGDs and Squees is bad enough already. And I have no idea how Entomb managed to sneak into a Bazaar build. Awful card.

[BreathWeapon]

This is why I view cards like Deep Analysis, Entomb, Cunning Wish, Crop Rotation, or Stifle as not being optimal choices in this deck. They either lack sufficient punch, are inflexible, or they are not “globally synergistic�.

I completely agree with your assesment of; Deep Analysis, Entomb, Crop Ration and Stifle under the reasoning you put forth. However, could you specifically elaborate on why you consider Cunning Wish to be a Sub-Optimal card in Dragon? It's versatile and it has synergy, so that would imply it lacks sufficient punch?

[dicemanx]

This is why I view cards like Deep Analysis, Entomb, Cunning Wish, Crop Rotation, or Stifle as not being optimal choices in this deck. They either lack sufficient punch, are inflexible, or they are not “globally synergistic�.

I completely agree with your assesment of; Deep Analysis, Entomb, Crop Ration and Stifle under the reasoning you put forth. However, could you specifically elaborate on why you consider Cunning Wish to be a Sub-Optimal card in Dragon? It's versatile and it has synergy, so that would imply it lacks sufficient punch?

Cunning Wish lacks global synergy because it fails to directly contribute towards two important goals: setting up the card drawing engines and setting up the kill. It's also slow and underpowered considering what kinds of cards are available for fetching from the SB. To work at peak efficiency, Dragon should limit itself to the following cards:

Combo pieces (enablers - Compulsion/Bazaar, animate effects, creatures)
Tutoring (Intuition, Vaults, Vamp/Demonic etc)
Disruption (Xantid, FoW, sometimes Duress)

The primary role of Cunning Wish is disruption (either proactive or reactive depending on your SB). However, to fit in Wishes you either have to replace existing disruption (bad idea), or cut some of the combo components. The latter is just not wise in a deck that relies on mass redundancy, even though it paradoxically does not run a full complement of each combo piece. Nevertheless, the biggest drawback to Wish in my opinion is the sacrifice you have to make in your SB. The deck wants to run non-instant SB cards almost exclusively.

Dragon is a very resilient deck and doesn't need to rely on Wish to bail itself out. If you find yourself in a meta where Cunning Wish is very necessary for Dragon to compete, then it's probably the wrong deck choice.

[Shock Wave]

This is why I view cards like Deep Analysis, Entomb, Cunning Wish, Crop Rotation, or Stifle as not being optimal choices in this deck. They either lack sufficient punch, are inflexible, or they are not “globally synergistic�.

Dragon is a very resilient deck and doesn't need to rely on Wish to bail itself out. If you find yourself in a meta where Cunning Wish is very necessary for Dragon to compete, then it's probably the wrong deck choice.

... that's the key paragraph. When was the last time anyone played Dragon and cast Cunning Wish for an answer? lol. If you try and convince me that you do that with any sort of regularity, I will promptly accuse you of being a liar.

It took me a while to realize how awful the wish is in Dragon. The fact of the matter is, if you need wish to get out of a bind, whatever you wish for is either not going to resolve or isn't going to help your predicament very much.

[darkchild]

Thanks for all the reply, I am glad the discussion is heading somewhere.

Here are my thoughts on cunning wish, It excels best in workshop matches where it is difficult to get bazaar to stick for more than a turn.(Cow +waste)

Often i can use that turn to get dragon in the yard but could not use it to find ambassador. Other then casting necromancy in response to the waste, i cant use bazaar to go off.

Cunning wish allows me to go off using any animate effects and wish for stroke. I feel that the purpose of the wish in dragon is very different from its role in 4cc or Control Slaver, it is actually use as a kill con instead of an answer finder. Another reason is i cant run 2 stroke and neither do i want to do so as cunning wish sometimes fetches things like rebuild or purge, mainly against workshop decks. It also gives the deck an answer to Plat angel which i find quite common these days due to the rise in control slaver. Deed for 7 just does not look feasible.

The biggest drawback of the wish is the limited space in the sb as dicemanx has said, and i cant agree more with that.

For my sb at present i only have 4 wish targets, stroke, coffin purge, rebuild and chains of vapour while the rest are chalice, verdents, titan and null rods. please feel free to criticise or express your views and this is only my $0.02 cents.  

[everythingitouchdies]

Here are my thoughts on cunning wish, It excels best in workshop matches where it is difficult to get bazaar to stick for more than a turn.(Cow +waste)

Often i can use that turn to get dragon in the yard but could not use it to find ambassador. Other then casting necromancy in response to the waste, i cant use bazaar to go off.

Cunning wish allows me to go off using any animate effects and wish for stroke... It also gives the deck an answer to Plat angel which i find quite common these days due to the rise in control slaver. Deed for 7 just does not look feasible.

The biggest drawback of the wish is the limited space in the sb as dicemanx has said, and i cant agree more with that.

The thing about cunning wish is that it tricks you. You think it is good because it makes you feel safe, so you squeeze it in and sacrifice the integrity of a very tight deck. I would rather have an intuition in hand than a wish when going off with dragon and no bazaar. You rack up some mana, intuition, grab ambassador, steve mcqueen (sliver queen) and squee, they put ambassador in your hand, you make a million slivers, play ambassador, and deck them anyway.

Scenario: platinum angel resolves. Grin wildly at your opponent. Cast that second animate spell. Put there whole deck in the g-yard and grab the rest of their goodies for yourself. Angel isnt so grand when you have two or three of your opponent's welders under your control. The point is that there is a way out of every situation, and if you have to just DRAW THE GAME.

The sideboard is as important as the maindeck. Consider the advice given by DicemanX about the deck, in limiting its choices by efficiency. You only want Combo, Tutors, and Disruption in the deck. The sideboard needs a plan as well, an optimum focus. Every card should be put in to make the deck stronger game 2, not combat revealed weaknesses. Strike Fear instead of Responding to Fear.

And to close, I LOVE LIM DUL'S VAULT!

EITD

[dicemanx]

Cunning wish allows me to go off using any animate effects and wish for stroke. I feel that the purpose of the wish in dragon is very different from its role in 4cc or Control Slaver, it is actually use as a kill con instead of an answer finder. Another reason is i cant run 2 stroke and neither do i want to do so as cunning wish sometimes fetches things like rebuild or purge, mainly against workshop decks. It also gives the deck an answer to Plat angel which i find quite common these days due to the rise in control slaver. Deed for 7 just does not look feasible.

It is unneccessary to use a Wish as a kill condition beyond a Bazaar. You already have Intuitions and Compulsions to accomplish this, cards you would likely cut to fit in the Wishes in the first place. EITD's response was a good one.

The Platinum Angel "problem" has two solutions without resorting to Cunning Wish. Either you set yourself up to animate your opponent's Welders (by either going off with Compulsion, or by milling 3 Squees into the graveyard so that you can draw 3 a turn with Bazaar  and hopefully find an animate before his 5 turn clock kills you), or switch win conditions to Eternal Witness if there are many Platinum Angels to contend with in your meta. Just remember that running an Eternal Witness will probably require either a Time Walk, Duress, or a Sliver Queen just be on the safe side.

Dicemanx runs 3 maindeck Lim-Dul's Vault, and no Demonic Tutor [snip]... The reason for running Vault is that it essentially ends the game on the spot.

I'm not sure who told you this, but the number of Vaults is not set in stone for me. Due to the rough casting cost of BU, the number of Vaults that the deck runs is dependent on your mana base - if your build has trouble producing both U and B quickly, then I would limit the number of Vaults and run Vampiric and Demonic.

[Diaonic]

I try to limit my self to 2 vaults and 2-3 regular tutor cards, vamp, demonic and intuition ect... I mean how often do you really want to see Lim duls vault? You only need to resolve one each game. The added bonus that it pitches to force is nice. The lack of blue cards in the deck makes force sub-optimal. But it's a necessary evil.

-Corey-

[Dante]

... I mean how often do you really want to see Lim duls vault? You only need to resolve one each game. The added bonus that it pitches to force is nice. The lack of blue cards in the deck makes force sub-optimal. But it's a necessary evil.

-Corey-

so if you only need to resolve one each game to win (or setup a superior position), why would you not run more of them to ensure you see one?

on FoW, the builds that seem to do well run 14-16 cards blue cards, which is quite enough to Force once or possibly twice a game.

[Diaonic]

Second turn UB can be difficult with certain builds. And if you are trying to improve your turn one win, it's nearly impossible. Why not just run a couple an be able to tutor for them? It also adds another whole layer which is being able to tutor for other key peaices.


-Corey-

[everythingitouchdies]

It is unneccessary to use a Wish as a kill condition beyond a Bazaar. You already have Intuitions and Compulsions to accomplish this, cards you would likely cut to fit in the Wishes in the first place. EITD's response was a good one.

I'm not sure who told you this, but the number of Vaults is not set in stone for me. Due to the rough casting cost of BU, the number of Vaults that the deck runs is dependent on your mana base - if your build has trouble producing both U and B quickly, then I would limit the number of Vaults and run Vampiric and Demonic.

Thanks.

The number of vaults is definitely contingent on your build, I run two and a vampiric, with no demonic. Also, its pretty easy to see the card if you get your draw engine going, and its also not always necessary to win, so there is not always a need to run more. Dont forget that intuition wins the game under a animated dragon and a blue mana source. A streamlined build has every necessary tool to win, and isnt dependent on any single selection from its multitude of bad cards.

EITD

[Dante]

Second turn UB can be difficult with certain builds. And if you are trying to improve your turn one win, it's nearly impossible. Why not just run a couple an be able to tutor for them? It also adds another whole layer which is being able to tutor for other key peaices.


-Corey-

why run Tutor A to fetch Tutor B?

I think the builds that seem strongest to me don't have a problem with turn 2 UB if they want it.

[Diaonic]

Why not have the flexability of tutoring for a card that sets up your next 5 draws? or being able to grab 1 card and win that turn. The more flexability the deck has the better it is. But there is a happy medium you need to be flexible and still stay focused on what task needs to be done.


-Corey-