Firewalker vs. Old Man in the Control Slaver board?

[Meddling Mike]

When brainstorming for ways that control slaver could beat fish in the post board matchup a number of cards came to mind. One of the most perplexing questions was which card was better at dealing with fish, Old Man of the Sea or Suq'Ata Firewalker.

My own testing came to reveal that the firewalker was "safer" and proved to be more effective against better players. The Old Man of the Sea seemed superior in the matchups against worse players, for example they would often neglect to kill their own lavamancer in response to the old man of the sea activation and so forth. The Old Man also gave my opponents ample opportunity to search for answers to my Old Man such as REB, which the firewalker would be immune to.

The other notable situation of difference is if they manage to get two grim lavamancers on the table, in which case the old man is Dead on arrival so to speak. The situation where the firewalker is noticeably worse is when your opponent has already seriously worked down your life total and blocking a man the initial turn he hits and surviving is key.

An old man can also steal a lone Mishra's Factory (with friends he can be pumped out of Old man range) or a morphed Kai, the only two creatures who can survive a firewalker hit. However my understanding of fish sideboarding techniques had lead me to believe that Kai is rarely left in the deck for game 2 of this matchup.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this matter and which card you think is superior sideboard tech for control slaver vs. Fish.

[leviat]

This topic was just discussed in the Old Man of the Sea thread. Stop beating a dead horse. Suq'Ata Firewalker just isn't worth the 3cc. Besides, Waterfront Bouncer is a much better card for that slot.

Locked

[Jacob Orlove]

This topic was just discussed in the Old Man of the Sea thread. Stop beating a dead horse. Suq'Ata Firewalker just isn't worth the 3cc. Besides, Waterfront Bouncer is a much better card for that slot.

This is for the Control Slaver sideboard, not some kind of fish maindeck. This  isn't a dead horse at all.

Reopened.

[Covetous]

What about the ability of OMotS to steal opposing Welders?  Or, do you assume that against a slaver deck your welder-toting opponent would SB out their welders?  Also, OMotS would probably be better vs. UG or UGr fish, due to the ability to steal boas, etc. when a firewalker could only cause regeneration.  And, is FTK an effective solution against Fish or not (a semi-random question that could affect the relevance of using either)?

[The Atog Lord]

I'm actually not thrilled with FTK against fish. Finding four mana against Fish is often difficult. Moreover, FTK is less than stellar against Mishra's Factory. And, since so many of their creatures fly, he is a worse blocker against Fish than he is against, for instance, Stompy.

As for the Old Man vs Firewalker debate, I play the Old Man myself. Nostalgia may be an element of it, but unlike Firewalker, Old Man is a decent clock on his own. The fact that he handles Boas much more effectively and the fact that he handles Factories are also bonuses. Granted, he can be destroyed by a Red Blast; but, the very same spell can also counter a Firewalker in the first place. Both are immune to Fire and to a single Lavamancer.

[Necropotenza]

I used Suq'ata firewalker in a 95 people tourney and they got sided in vs fish (twice) and berserk stompy.

If the matchup you want to improve is ur-fish Firewalkers are difinitely the way to go because they can't be Reb while OMotS can. Also, lavamancer activation+fire wouldn't be a rare situation (to kill your OMotS).
Against WTF OMotS can be better in theory because it steals Boas, although I'd rather have a Reb proof critter (which deals with almost all opposing WTF creatures).

In fact, those are the two matchups where Firewalker vs OMotS discussion is valid. Against madness, sui, zoo, etc. creatures' you already have FTK to deal with them.

[Meddling Mike]

but unlike Firewalker, Old Man is a decent clock on his own.

Actually going aggro with the old man forces you to give up on using his ability for the turn, for doing one less point of damage a turn you can wait for him to deal his damage EOT, saving him for any possible threats that may arise on your opponents turn. I think the tradeoff is favorable.

Granted, he can be destroyed by a Red Blast; but, the very same spell can also counter a Firewalker in the first place.

True, but it's far easier to force through one spell and then being able to throw caution to the wind rather than always keeping a counter open for an REB or Fire/Lavamancer activation. Not to mention that they can also set up counter backup themselves to force through an REB which they may not have the luxury of doing when you first drop the firewalker.

[Mixing Mike]

Each one will win you games that other one couldn't. It just the nature in the diffrences in the card.  Resolving a Firewalker turns 1-2 will take the game vs. fish; however landing an Old Man still warrants your opponent to play it out.

FTK is a sui creature, killing the Lavamancer (one of the 2 problem cards that win them the matchup for you) as its CIP ability is on the stack.  The 2 toughness isn't enough to make FTK the bomb we want it to be in the matchup.

[Plognark]

This is a pretty tough call. My nostalgic side favors old man, but firewalker is a hard little bugger to kill off without some odd color kill.

I think it would have to be meta dependant. Either one is good against fish. If you're expecting any fish decks that add green for boas (or any deck with boas, actually) i'd favor old man. If you expect plain U/R fish i'd go with the Firewalker. The advantage over factories is good though. At the least it'll make your opponent hold off a turn from swinging with a factory, since he'd need two online to attack.

I also think old man might have some slightly better utility against workshop decks, although I havn't tested it to be sure. At least old man can steal welders to block an angry 7/10.  

[the Luke]

I also have to contend with 1-2 Food Chain Goblins decks (go 5-proxy budget decks go!)... I'm playing Flametongue Kavu at the moment, but that's liable to change (mainly for the casting cost issues).  Old Man doesn't seem worth it, but I'm not sure Firewalker is either... what's it going to kill, Prospector?  This led me to pondering whether Grim Lavamancer might even be worth playing in the slot, or maybe just bung in more Fire/Ice.

What do y'all think?

[Smmenen]

What's wrong with Old Man against FCG?

[Windfall]

Old Man of the Sea is amazing vs. Fish and also doubles as a great card to bring in against other Welder based decks if you don't have Blue Blast.  At GenCon, I brought in Blue Blasts over Old Men for the mirror.  The reason for this was because I wanted a cheap Welder answer (first turn even if needed) that would also help me against Red Blasts that I suspected from my opponent's board.  If you're not running Blue Blasts (a mistake), Old Man is nice for stealing Welders.

On another note, Old Man of the Sea is savage vs. Ophidians.  He can block him the first turn, then when he becomes active he happily gives you a one-eyed, card-drawing snake.  Some good.  I think that Old Men backed with Duress cause problems for MonoU.

My response to FTK is that it is only good in the Madness matchup, where you can lose before setting up a killer combo.  Combined with their Null Rod, UG Madness usually puts you on a short clock with their beaters.  FTK is the only way to 2 for 1 against Madness for the most part and that is a big card for the matchup, which is otherwise difficult.  Against Workshop Aggro, it's a decent answer to Su-Chi and Juggs, but I find Welder to be a great card in that matchup, and Blue Blast is good to stop their Welders and Red Blasts much like in the mirror.  Any aggro deck that doesn't play Null Rod does not scare me so much with C-Slaver.  I would probably only board in FTK against UG Madness, never against Fish; it's terrible next to the Old Man.

All that said, Firewalker is still good, but having tested both, I would always want to have Old Man.  Even if they do kill their own Lavamancer, that card is the reason Fish wins (besides Null Rod) so much.  Take out the Lavamancer and suddenly you can play Goblin Welder and ride a Platinum Angel or Pentavus to victory.  And he is great for stealing Spiketail Hatchlings too...

     ~Mark B.

[scars4eyes]

i will have to test the firewalker, currently i have been using duplicant in my board against FCG but i have found that a resolved welder plus any of the big men mean trouble for FCG i am going to try firewalker and triskellion sideboard.

what are the best ways to get around energy flux, null rod.  I use mogg salvages and viashino heretics for the rod and crucible but i dont have a full answer for energy flux besides red blast.

[Meddling Mike]

Having seen the man pwn Kowal in game 2 of the semi's at waterbury I don't think I can't really make the argument that the firewalker is better than the old man in the board, Old man is very good in more than one matchup which gives him the nod hands down.

[Jacob Orlove]

Closed by request.