[Deck] Simplified Stax for Post Gen-Con world

[diamond66]

I have been doing a great deal of testing lately, and it appears by my results that while still exceptionally powerful, Stax has been severely affected by the rampant non-basic hate in the environment.  While still capable of simply breaking a game open either early or late, it often has trouble competing against many decks with mid to large quantities of hate, or even a single B2B.  None of what I am saying is hot news, however I haven't really seen a viable answer to the problem as of yet.  Possibly with more information from the Waterbury tournament, this question will receive a suitable resolution, but until then this is my suggestion.

Mana Sources

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Strip mine
7 solomoxen
1 Mana vault
1 Mana crypt

Combo Pieces:
4 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
3 Winter Orb
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds

Broken Items/Draw
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Wheel Of Fortune
1 Tinker

Tricks

2 R.E.B.
2 Fire/Ice

Men

4 Goblin Welder
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Sundering Titan

SB
2 R.E.B.
1 Mindslaver
3 Tanglewire
3 Rack and Ruin
1 Platinum Angel
1 Triskelion
3 B.E.B.
1 Hurkyl's Recall

    Let me first explain a few of the odd card choices.  I chose winter orb over tanglewire maindeck as I feel that it is better in a longer game situation.  The ability to drop a threat or 2, tap an opponent, and drop a game breaker such as this is worth the slight tempo loss that tanglewire gives.  I also found myself dropping a tanglewire, and then having an opponent drop either B2B or some other hate that I did not have the resources to pull out of, due to my own lock.  
     
I also felt that in an environment so full of blue and blue based combo, blast would never really be a dead card game one, and would give me a chance to answer force of will on the first turn if the correct situation presented itself.  I also felt that Fire/Ice was exceptional in the Mirror, against fish and aggro, and even in turning of my own winter orb during an opponent's end step.  Given the testing I have done, the presence of Orb necessitates the presence of these two cards.

     Now, there are both pros and cons to the decklist I have presented, and as far as I can see through testing, they are fairly equal.  While you lose a bit of broken power not playing the splash of black and white, the deck becomes much more consistant.  Rarely are you struggling to find the correct mana to play cards, and the small number of basic lands allows you to attempt to play under a B2B as normal, a feat that Trinistax had a great problem with previously.  However, it does seem as if you lose some of you "tricks" with balance and will.  The question I pose is, is the consistancy element gained by stramlining to 2 colors worth the loss of power?

[Conan_barberarn]

The ability to drop a threat or 2, tap an opponent, and drop a game breaker such as this is worth the slight tempo loss that tanglewire gives. I also found myself dropping a tanglewire, and then having an opponent drop either B2B or some other hate that I did not have the resources to pull out of, due to my own lock.

How did he manage to drop a BtB under a tangle wire? He must have had like 6 permanents allready and that means you've done a lousy job at locking him down (I'm disregarding Lotus Btb or mox mox BtB).

I think it's good that you've removed white and black (I dont see them helping things anyway) but I'd like to see at least 2 more ancient tombs for mana acc should your WS get wasted. I also think that Tolarian is a great addition to any STAX build.

I dont think you'll need the 2 REB's (your deck should not be built on answers, thats your opponents job) or Fire/Ice (Add two Trisk main instead, they're crusial for welder removal).

I'd also like to remove 1 Wheel, 1 TFK and 3 Chalice to add 1 Smokestack (this wins games), 1 CoW and as many Tangle Wires as possible (Wire + Orb is a cruel combo, especially against fish and decks without moxen). One of the best drawers for WS decks is Memory jar which for some reason is missing here.

After those changes your deck is starting to look like the archtype of STAX that is so popular here in Sweden.

Thanks and good luck with the deck/ Gustav

[serracollector]

Those were all good suggestions.  I personally would also suggest Triskelion over Fire/Ice.  True he cannot tap a Winter Orb EOT, but against fish or other weenie decks you fear, he OWNS.  Either you have a 4/4 beatstick or you kill three of their critters, then weld him inot something or weld him back into play.  Recurable bolts are some good I here vs. the mirror/fish/weenie.  My 2 cents.  Good luck.

[Devoted]

I agree that triskelion is better than fire // ice and also 2 tangle wire in main helps you up against many decks. I also have to agree that he must have had a rarely explosive start for a control deck to manage to drop a B2B.

Those were all good suggestions.  I personally would also suggest Triskelion over Fire/Ice.  True he cannot tap a Winter Orb EOT, but against fish or other weenie decks you fear, he OWNS.  Either you have a 4/4 beatstick or you kill three of their critters, then weld him inot something or weld him back into play.  Recurable bolts are some good I here vs. the mirror/fish/weenie.  My 2 cents.  Good luck.

[Timewalker]

What happend to the memory jar? In my personal experience, the jar's been quite useful. It's also re-usable through the tender loving care of the welders.

[WildWillieWonderboy]

First, let's dispel one of the frequent misconceptions about this deck: it is not control. It proactively establishes its board position, which defeats the opponent by itself. As such, the use of maindeck answers is just bad. Also, chalice is just redundant when this deck works so well under trinisphere. If you have trinisphere and properly functioning mana denial in the form of Tangle Wire, strips and Smokestacks, they just plain won't be able to play anything. Also, the way you've added cards has made the lock less consistent by making almost everything a three-of. Four tangle wires is just the way this deck works, it says turn off your opponent for the next few turns.

I also felt that in an environment so full of blue and blue based combo, blast would never really be a dead card game one, and would give me a chance to answer force of will on the first turn if the correct situation presented itself. I also felt that Fire/Ice was exceptional in the Mirror, against fish and aggro, and even in turning of my own winter orb during an opponent's end step. Given the testing I have done, the presence of Orb necessitates the presence of these two cards.

So why play with orb? It lets your opponent untap some, and allows him to keep his stuff untapped and forces you to play certain cards with it. The core of the $t4x is made up of cards that shut your opponent down immediately and should not be bastardized with cards that might not impact the game. Simply put, winter orb allows your opponent to draw up an answer or use a mirage tutor to find it without putting him on any sort of clock.

[diamond66]

I am not refuting anything you have said about the deck whatsoever, as strictly speaking you are correct.  However, the format has evolved to a point where loading your gun and shooting it no longer gaurantees a win.  The format has morphed into an environment that is exceptionally full of hate for artifacts and non-basics, which this deck thrives on.  

I understand that the idea is a departure from what people are used to seeing, however, I think that there are a great many valid points.  Primarily, tanglewire is a good, solid lock piece, however it is only good in 2 situations: 1 is very early, and the other is after smokestack has severely reduced the number of permananents an opponent controls.  A fisrt turn tangle is a horrible play, unless you are playing second.  A tanglewire midgame is also subpar, as generally it is little less than a small nuisance for the opponent.  I thought that orb, on the other hand, was a card that HAD to be dealt with no matter what the circumstances.  An opponent can just tap out under tanglewire, tutoring or drawing cards to no end.  With the orb, along with trinisphere, the game becomes exceptionally difficult for a control player to correctly play.  When you know every counter costs 3, and it will be 3 turns before you can counter again, exactly what spells need to be countered?  This situation allows for a great deal of error on the part of the opponent.

As for chalice being redundant, I would agree to a certain extent.  However, as anyone who has ever played one will agree, a chalice for 2 against fish or Mono-U is as close to a hard lock as can be obtained.  If/when the chalice resolves, the control deck is fundamentally neutered.  Also, it is yet another potent threat that must be dealt with by another deck, be it control or aggro.  The more must counter spells I can play without destroying the viability of the deck, the better.  If dropping a first turn chalice for two into a force means that my trinisphere has a better shot of slipping through, so be it

[Conan_barberarn]

I thought that orb, on the other hand, was a card that HAD to be dealt with no matter what the circumstances.  An opponent can just tap out under tanglewire, tutoring or drawing cards to no end.  With the orb, along with trinisphere, the game becomes exceptionally difficult for a control player to correctly play.  When you know every counter costs 3, and it will be 3 turns before you can counter again, exactly what spells need to be countered?  This situation allows for a great deal of error on the part of the opponent.

There is not that much of synergy between Orb and 3sphere, Orb and Tangle on the other hand is great and spells death for every deck that doesn't play to many moxen. If you play a wire, you can almost be sure that your opponent cant counter during your next turn (i.e. time walk) but if you play a Orb he can simply untap a land, play a land, and drain into something game-swinging next turn. A good player should know what to counter anyway so Orb alone doesn't do much good there.

The more must counter spells I can play without destroying the viability of the deck, the better.  If dropping a first turn chalice for two into a force means that my trinisphere has a better shot of slipping through, so be it

You should allways aim at playing a first turn 3sphere, if you don't have it and your hand contains mostly good second turn threats i suggest you mulligan. This kind of play will force your opponent to mulligan into a FoW because he knows that 1st turn 3sphere will win you the game. This is why I recommend you running more land acc in the form of Tombs to complement your WS. If WS gets wasted you should have a Tomb and will thus be able to break out of the 3cc-lock well before your opponent.

If you play second I see nothing better than a 1st turn Wire which will insure you that your next turn lock-piece wont get contered other than by FoW. If you do play a Wire this way, it will be at least 2 time walks for your part.

Offtopic: This is why WS or 3sphere needs restriction because it forces the opponent to mull into a FoW to avoid loosing to a 1st turn 3sphere.

Thanks/ Gustav

[Toad]

Offtopic: This is why WS or 3sphere needs restriction because it forces the opponent to mull into a FoW to avoid loosing to a 1st turn 3sphere.

I've been playing against Stax pretty often and I've almost never found the need to mulligan into Force of Will with my usual Control decks in order to stop a first turn Trinisphere. If you are on the play, you can go first turn Polluted Delta, Mox and oh, good game boy, I have turn 2 Mana Drain. If you are on the draw, just keep a hand accordingly. That is just a question of playtesting.

Note that a Control deck is much more likely to have a first turn Force of Will than Stax is to have Trinisphere and the mana to cast it in opening hand anyways.

Stax is maybe rampant in Sweden because you guys probably don't play the right metagame decks. Butchering Stax is really easy to do (Dragon anyone?). Until then, It would be really nice if the Swedish T1 players stopped asking for 3S or MWS restriction...

[Conan_barberarn]

First of all, sorry for going somewhat off topic. I just find it really fun to discuss this with americans (who don't see Stax dominating your meta).

 
I've been playing against Stax pretty often and I've almost never found the need to mulligan into Force of Will with my usual Control decks in order to stop a first turn Trinisphere. If you are on the play, you can go first turn Polluted Delta, Mox and oh, good game boy, I have turn 2 Mana Drain.

Of course if your are going 1st there is no need to worry about 3sphere (then you play Wire instead) but when you go second, you'd better have a FoW ready cause a resolved 1st turn 3sphere almost allways equals gg, wasteland or not.

 
Note that a Control deck is much more likely to have a first turn Force of Will than Stax is to have Trinisphere and the mana to cast it in opening hand anyways.

You sure about this? I think you've based this on american Stax which doesn't run enough mana acc lands (like 3 tomb and tolarian). And besides, are you really going to mulligan for a FoW those times when yo dont have it in the first 7? And if you do have FoW, he's still trading 1 for 2 and next turn you'll probably face a new threat that is just as bad (stack ,welder, wire, CoW or whatever).

 
Stax is maybe rampant in Sweden because you guys probably don't play the right metagame decks. Butchering Stax is really easy to do (Dragon anyone?). Until then, It would be really nice if the Swedish T1 players stopped asking for 3S or MWS restriction...

Yeah, there are a few decks with good matchup against Stax (dragon, c-slaver, ws slaver and possibly other ws-decks), but that doesn't make me like this bisarre game plan better (a two card combo that says I win).

Thanks/ Gustav

[Wollblad]

 
Note that a Control deck is much more likely to have a first turn Force of Will than Stax is to have Trinisphere and the mana to cast it in opening hand anyways.

You sure about this? I think you've based this on american Stax which doesn't run enough mana acc lands (like 3 tomb and tolarian).
Thanks/ Gustav

It's true. Both decks have 4 of the critical card, but Stax needs some other specific cards or combination of specific cards. Those possibilities are much less than for the controldeck to just have a blue card. Plain statistics.

Now to the origianl deck list which is terrible. The only good thing I can say is that it is only two colours. In this deck, Wastelands are far better than Will/Mindtwist. Still you have too many coloured spells. I run Welders + 6 - 8 more. You have Welder + 12 more. I sometimes find myselfe locked under my own cards or at least severly slowed down having coloured spells in hand, but too few cards to utilize my Workshop. This was one of the main issues with Workshop Slaver, if you cannot use your workshop, you will effectivly miss a land drop. So you will be slowed in two ways, by not using you Workshops to a maximum and by not being able to play more than one spell per turn since you cannot produce enough non-workshop mana. This last issue is furthermore not helped by the lack of Acient Tombs.

 I chose winter orb over tanglewire maindeck as I feel that it is better in a longer game situation.

I have actually playtested using no Tangle Wire and it sucked big time. If you cannot lock your opponent before midgame, you will loose. Tangle Wire is effectivly your counterspell against control and your moat against decks like FCG. Then you can of course run Winter Orb too. If you do not run Tangle Wire, I'm not supprised you're struck by cards like B2B.

There is a way to go round Back to Basic and being able to run more coloured spells. I have with great success in many tournaments run the following mana base:
1 Tolarian
4 Workshop
4 Volcanic
2 Reef
2 Tomb
9 SoLoMoxenCryptVault
1 Strip
4 Waste
2 Gilded Lotus
It is more broken and allows for more coloured spells than the traditional mana base but is a bit more unstable. Notice that despite Gilded Lotus, the deck can never support more than two colours as long as you have Wastelands.

[Toad]

First of all, sorry for going somewhat off topic. I just find it really fun to discuss this with americans (who don't see Stax dominating your meta).

1. I'm not American.
2. I *know* what Stax can do. "Know" as in "I've been playing Stax for a year and a half now and published the first article about it".

but when you go second, you'd better have a FoW ready cause a resolved 1st turn 3sphere almost allways equals gg, wasteland or not.

That is blatantly false. Seriously, I see no reason to mulligan into Force of Will against Stax if I'm playing, say, 4CC, Dragon, Workshop Slaver or Drain Slaver. Depending on my hand, I'll even sometimes let the Trinisphere resolve if I have gas to deal with the next threats.

I think you've based this on american Stax which doesn't run enough mana acc lands (like 3 tomb and tolarian).

There is no such "American Stax" and "Swedish Stax" and whatever. There is Stax and players adapt it with minor tweaks.

but that doesn't make me like this bisarre game plan better (a two card combo that says I win).

Mishra's Workshop + Trinisphere is a win conditon on its own if and only if Stax is able to keep a streamlined flow of lock components going. Trinisphere's impact is dramatically lessened when Stax is going second, and fetchlands help when Stax is going first. Obviously, you guys need to do MUCH more playtesting to see Trinisphere is not that broken even when going first. I sure shuts down many strategies on its own, but as do many other cards (Null Rod, Blood Moon, Back to Basics...).

And If I had to play a two card combo that says "I win", I would probably play Dragon instead. Heh.

[Conan_barberarn]

1. I'm not American.
2. I *know* what Stax can do. "Know" as in "I've been playing Stax for a year and a half now and published the first article about it".

Ok, sorry!

That is blatantly false. Seriously, I see no reason to mulligan into Force of Will against Stax if I'm playing, say, 4CC, Dragon, Workshop Slaver or Drain Slaver. Depending on my hand, I'll even sometimes let the Trinisphere resolve if I have gas to deal with the next threats.

What gas? Do you mean the ESG you have in your hand or your own WS? If they follow up with a smokestack there is absolutly nothing that can stop them from winning. Usually a CoW will do just as good. True, normally they wont have such a good hand but its also probable that you wont have enough fetchies and/or basics to break the lock.

Mishra's Workshop + Trinisphere is a win conditon on its own if and only if Stax is able to keep a streamlined flow of lock components going. Trinisphere's impact is dramatically lessened when Stax is going second, and fetchlands help when Stax is going first. Obviously, you guys need to do MUCH more playtesting to see Trinisphere is not that broken even when going first. I sure shuts down many strategies on its own, but as do many other cards (Null Rod, Blood Moon, Back to Basics...).

A streamlined flow of threats usually means more than one card imo. Smokestack or CoW will end things right there and then and that's only one card. It's obviously true that 3sphere is far worse when going second, we all know that, but what about when it does drop 1st turn?
I don't think you can compare 3sphere with cards like Rod, BtB etc. They only shut down some cards (or makes them worse) while 3 sphere shuts down all cards! I've played numerous games ws STAX when I didn't have a FoW or waste in my opening hand and thus I didn't get to play a single spell all game.

I dont like it when you say we have to playtest more. I've been playtesting against Stax numerous times over the past 1,5 years. Before CoW you could beat them pretty easily with alot of decks (Landstill was my personal favourite) and the plan was simple, just waste the WS and watch them suffer their own lock (then play your bombs i.e. Disk or whatever). Now this isn't a winning strategy anymore.

Since the U.S don't seem to have any trouble with STAX decks, how do you guys beat them?

Thanks/ Gustav

[Hi-Val]

Stax loses to its own inconsistencies. The optimal play is a first-turn Workshop, and the deck doesn't always see those. If it has to mull down to 6 or 5 because of colored threats and no colored lands or vice versa, you pretty much win the game against them right there.

Stax is prone to the same gamebreakers as other decks are. Casting Will or Tinker means that Stax, with zero targetted removal, can't do a whole lot.

Stax is an excellent deck, but with proper metagaming, the lock that it has on Sweden can be broken.

[Razvan]

Incidentally, if you wonder about statistics:

A Stax deck, with 4 Trinispheres, and:

4 Workshop
2 Ancient Tomb / City of Traitors
5 Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus
14 Other land that produce 1 single mana

With those 29 Mana Sources in total:

With 4 Trinispheres, being able to cast it is = 25% (51508/200000)
With 4 Trinispheres, not being able to cast it is = 14% (28389/200000)

And here for the control deck:

FoW + 1 other blue card (non Ancestral Recall)                          = 39.178% (78356/200000)
FoW + 1 Ancestral Recall and no other blue card                         = 0.1675% (335/200000)
FoW + no blue card                                                      = 0.709% (1418/200000)
Mana drain + mox sapphire + blue land                                   = 2.784% (5568/200000)
Mana drain + mox sapphire + blue land + FoW + 1 extra blue card, non AR = 0.6775% (1355/200000)
Mana drain + mox sapphire + blue land + Fow + Ancestral Recall          = 0.0505% (101/200000)

For a traditional build...

So quite a bit more likely to be able to counter, and you have a greater chance if there's a drain as well. Also, I didn't add the chance of having a Brainstorm and Ancestral resolve and dig a bit deeper.

Note, it's 39%, not the 42% previously calculated, due to the fact that you need a blue card in addition to the force.

So, yeah...

[WildWillieWonderboy]

To get back on topic, $T4X is quite ridiculous in the "post GenCon metagame." The increase in combo has made the environment very unfavorable for D4RGON, generally slower than tendrils and belcher, which is a huge plus for the matchups. One matchup that I didn't like too much when playing $T4X was Tog. With the increase in combo, tog might have less critters to worry about and duress is shaping up to be a huge boon. Of course omnipresent wastes and 7/10's will probably be more than enough to keep that jolly green giant down and out.

On another front, welders are getting more popular ever day, especially, I would imagine, in lists with FoW and Mana Drain. However, the release of CoK might check this rise by providing Vintage with some useful nonartifact cards. Also regarding CoK, the legends effect in and of itself might take some of the wind out of $T4X by rewarding those decks that can play the popular legends, in much the same way that the presence of CotW rewarded archetypes that could make good use of strips, fetches and artifacts, lending wings to $t4X by enhancing the integral mana denial aspect.

Long story short, the coming of CoK will probably make all this speculation completely worthless come the day after tomorrow.

Edit: Yeah, so I just peeped the Waterbury top lists after I posted this and saw the greenness mentioned above making an appearance.

(This post)-----throw----[/^\]--->
(it's a window with curtains)^

[Covetous]

I am wondering, if people are saying that the original build posted isn't very good (and I happen to agree--simply the lack of 4 stax and 4 tangle wires makes it very suspect), then what IS a good UR stax build?  I seem to think that the deck should have the following, but I'm not 100% sure what else would be optimal:
4 goblin welder
4 smokestack
4 trinisphere
4 tangle wire
4 crucible of worlds
4 thirst for knowledge (and/or some combination of meditate)
1 memory jar
1 ancestral recall
1 sundering titan
1 tinker
1-2 other win conditions (titan, karn, trike, pentavus?)
1-2 other cards (? more card draw, ? mox monkey, ? mindslaver)
29 mana sources, including:
4 mishra's workshop
4 volcanic island
9 solomoxcryptvault
1-2 ancient tomb
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
4-5 others (preferably colored, i.e. basics, reef or fetches, maybe grim mono)

The problem that I have seen with Winter Orb is basically the same as what has already been said--it isn't that good on its own, but merely in combination with tangle wire.  Plus, >1 winter orb = 1 winter orb, so getting more than one is a waste.  The same is true for crucible, but crucible is game-breaking and WOrb isn't.  Chalice is also a very good card, but I feel it may be better in the SB.  Maybe running 2 WOrb MD in addition to the other 16 superior lock components might be decent.  Also, on the subject of Tolarian academy, sure it's really broken in this deck, but it can be very inconsistent and consistency is what the deck needs.  I think that ancient tomb is very important for the deck, taking the place of workshops 5 and maybe 6.  Toad--since you know more about Stax than most people, what would you play as a UR stax build if you chose to run it at a tourney?

[Toad]

I have not worked on Stax since March or so, and I don't have a UR build ready and tested. Off my head, this is what I would play :

//
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Tolarian Academy
        2 Polluted Delta
        2 Shivan Reef
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        4 Volcanic Island
        4 Wasteland
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Sol Ring
//
        3 Crucible of Worlds
        1 Mindslaver
        4 Smokestack
        4 Tangle Wire
        4 Trinisphere
//
        1 utility creature, probably Duplicant or Platinum Angel
        2 Sundering Titan
        4 Goblin Welder
//
        1 Ancestral Recall
        4 Thirst for Knowledge
        1 Timetwister
        1 Tinker
        1 Wheel of Fortune
//
2 metagame / utility slots, Chalice of the Void, Crucible of Worlds, Sphere of Resistance, Intuition, Fire/Ice ...

That is really nothing more than a basic build with no metagame adaptations and no refinment.
Oh, and do not comment my choices since as I've said before, this is not a tested build

[xrobx]

From my playtesting, I feel that the UR build of stax is far insuperior to the greater URB build.  Adding demonic tutor is grand, as is yawgWIN.

Also, the best part about having different colors of mana is the ability to splash for the metagame if necessary, and running balance!!! This card has won me just about the same amount of games will has, if not more!

As far as a list goes, the cards mentioned above are quite accurate, with a few exceptions:

-4 Thirst for Knowledge
+4 Meditate

Thirst is much more fitted to a control slaver deck, as mentioned, we are not running control, we're running prison (lock down).  Meditate allows the player to go, "Okay there...now sac 2 and tap 4...now I'll draw 4, and you can have another turn to sac and tap more shit after this one.."

This card is quite broken (meditate) when used correctly.

As for mana base, I'm not positive myself on the best build, but running non-basics (gemstone mine and city of brass) seem to work in nicely with a 2 titan build (a 7/10 split ).

[Rico Suave]

Thirst is much more fitted to a control slaver deck, as mentioned, we are not running control, we're running prison (lock down). Meditate allows the player to go, "Okay there...now sac 2 and tap 4...now I'll draw 4, and you can have another turn to sac and tap more shit after this one.."

This card is quite broken (meditate) when used correctly.

Meditate is at it's best when you're already winning though...and when you're not winning it's very dangerous to cast it without sealing your own doom.

Thirst is always good, and it also sets up Welder very nicely.

[WildWillieWonderboy]

Meditate is at it's best when you're already winning though...and when you're not winning it's very dangerous to cast it without sealing your own doom.

Thirst is always good, and it also sets up Welder very nicely.

In order for $T4X to win, it has to drop multiple perms, which means that you need to draw multiple cards when playing it (i.e., gaining 3 cards instead of one). TFK requires welder to work properly, and while welder is nice, bringing it out of its auxiliary role and up frontstage is very dangerous, especially when you have the means to hardcast everything in the deck. Also, given that the list is very tight, you don't have enough room for more than a few draw spells, so they had better find something (i.e. go four cards deep rather than three cards deep). More often then not, you will find something that makes your opponent's extra turn worth less or worthless.

[Rico Suave]

In order for $T4X to win, it has to drop multiple perms, which means that you need to draw multiple cards when playing it (i.e., gaining 3 cards instead of one). TFK requires welder to work properly, and while welder is nice, bringing it out of its auxiliary role and up frontstage is very dangerous, especially when you have the means to hardcast everything in the deck. Also, given that the list is very tight, you don't have enough room for more than a few draw spells, so they had better find something (i.e. go four cards deep rather than three cards deep). More often then not, you will find something that makes your opponent's extra turn worth less or worthless.

When does TFK need Welder to work properly?  It makes Welder a lot better, but it doesn't require it to work properly.  

In fact, it doesn't even require a favorable board position to work properly.  Casting Meditate without having some sort of lock on your opponent is very dangerous even if you get 4 cards off it, since an extra turn is all they need to establish board control.  If your opponent is ahead, how is giving them more time to set up a defense a good thing?  I'd rather have a card that's useful at all times rather than only when I'm winning.

[Hi-Val]

A lot of decks in the format can't really do a whole lot with an extra turn, especially with the freshly-drawn Tangerine Wire or Trinisphere holding them down. Meditate puts Stax into cards that it needs. It's a skill-tester card and people can get away without running it. It's just that when you get good with Meditate, it's a lot better than TFK.

[BreathWeapon]

Meditate is at it's best when you're already winning though...and when you're not winning it's very dangerous to cast it without sealing your own doom.

Thirst is always good, and it also sets up Welder very nicely.

In order for $T4X to win, it has to drop multiple perms, which means that you need to draw multiple cards when playing it (i.e., gaining 3 cards instead of one). TFK requires welder to work properly, and while welder is nice, bringing it out of its auxiliary role and up frontstage is very dangerous, especially when you have the means to hardcast everything in the deck. Also, given that the list is very tight, you don't have enough room for more than a few draw spells, so they had better find something (i.e. go four cards deep rather than three cards deep). More often then not, you will find something that makes your opponent's extra turn worth less or worthless.

Meditate forces you to skip a Draw Step, so Thirst will reveal exactly the same number of cards.

In other news, what happedn to 4xChalice of the Void in Stax? How are you people dealing with Draw 7 and Long with out them? Trinisphere is simply not enough.

Also, I think the 5c Stacker builds are best. Yawgmoth's Will, Demonic Tutor and Balance are HUGE, and boarding Artifact Mutations=Teh Win vs other Shop decks.

[WildWillieWonderboy]

Meditate forces you to skip a Draw Step, so Thirst will reveal exactly the same number of cards.

Yeah, but that draw step doesn't matter for dick because the turn count doesn't even matter now. Your opponent is saying draw go, and you are free to drop threats whenever. Even taking into consideration the missed draw from forcing your opponent to take two turns under wire and/or stacks is like saying we need to remember the good things Bush has done.

I'll break down the text starting at the basic level:

Draw four cards. Skip your next turn

Notice the lack of any transitional phrases between the two ideas. While this destroys the flow, it preserves the intent of the instructions by separating them with the indomitable period.(here too) It also ironically serves to separate the good part (getting a shit load of cards) from the bad part (giving your opponent an extra turn) so that even the dimmest of players can quickly discern that this is a card that has been balanced with a drawback, such that if one were to eliminate this drawback, the card would be unbalanced and therefore *good*. In such a case, the card then reads:

Draw four cards.

This can be written in expanded form as:

Get four cards right the fuck now. Take them sequentially from the top of your deck such that you go deeper into it than you would have with Brainstorm, Ancestral Recall or TFK, while keeping all of them to do with whatever you please.

The issue is not that TFK is "bad," it's just that it is nowhere near as good as Meditate with some lock components, in that "some lock components" being on the board is a frequent occurence (4 stacks, 4 wires, 4 crucibles, 4 trinispheres), whereas having welder on the board is nowhere near as likely (4 goblin welder).

[Conan_barberarn]

The issue is not that TFK is "bad," it's just that it is nowhere near as good as Meditate with some lock components, in that "some lock components" being on the board is a frequent occurence (4 stacks, 4 wires, 4 crucibles, 4 trinispheres), whereas having welder on the board is nowhere near as likely (4 goblin welder).

How can you count CoW and 3sphere as lock components in this case? With CoW you dont want to skip your next turn cause then you cant waste and with 3sphere you're giving your opponent more time to build his manabase and break whatever lock you have (he can tap out to play a mox/sol ring and take another turn thanks to your meditate).

The only card that is truely synergistic with meditate is a smokestack with 1 or more counters (in some cases tangle wire can be good too but it still lets them play instants). If you have a smokestack eating his perms you'll probably win anyway.

Conclusions: chance of stack + counter= chance of active welder. But considering that you may sametimes have none of the above TfK is clearly better. Meditate only acts as a  "win more" in STAX.

Thanks/ Gustav

[DEA]

it's also good with tanglewire
the counterargument with meditate is that if you DON'T have any good lock parts out, meditate draws you into them and makes the opponent suffer during the two turns

the bad thing is, tanglewire (the only thing that'll work on the meditate turns, presuming no active stacks) doesn't stop c.wish -> r&r

[WildWillieWonderboy]

When a crucible lock is established, it doesn't matter what the opponent is doing, it won't be much.

This is a common misconception regarding stacks. Resoving the decks namesake and being able to put counters on it does not win you the game, in fact, none of the lock parts win the game by themselves, that's why they're parts. It's not that you use meditate when you're already winning, you use it when you have evaluated the present situation and determined that giving your opponent an extra turn for four cards is at worst an even exchange. This occurs in numerous circumstances and is mostly match up dependent.

[Razvan]

When you have just a Crucible Lock going... Meditate is bad, as it allows them to have 2 Land drops...

When you have a Crucible Lock... the rest is irrelevant, you pretty much won.

Smokestack is the namesake of Stax because it is by far the most powerful lock component it has, and it allows you to blow up the hate your opponent throws at you. Heck, even Mindslaver might not be as strong as Smokestack.

Meditate is incredibly good in Stax in the perfect setup, when the Smokestack has more than one counter on it. Otherwise, it's still strong, but giving your opponent one more turn is pretty damned dangerous, in a lot of situations (when you don't have a lock system down).

[WildWillieWonderboy]

When you have just a Crucible Lock going... Meditate is bad, as it allows them to have 2 Land drops...

When you have a Crucible Lock... the rest is irrelevant, you pretty much won.

Yeah well, they'll be getting the first one regardless, unless you're playing savage Pardic Miner tech , and the one extra land doesn't matter compared to the savage business drawn off meditate.

The point was to show that there are numerous instances where meditate is playable. I really think the biggest problem is that Magic players are scared shitless of giving their opponents extra turns, I mean, that's like a time walk or something. Kindly remember though, that many plays are essentially time walks, such as an early tangle wire. Honestly, the circumstances in which meditate is good are too numerous to list here, so just test with it.