Spectator Rights

[thorme]

I have a couple questions about what level of participation a spectator is allowed to have in the game?

- If I see a misrepresented game state as a spectator (which both players miss), can I call a judge?  Can I tell the players?  Should I simply tell them I'm calling a judge, and not tell them why?  (or should I do nothing?)

- Can a spectator give advise to a player between games?  (example..while they're sideboarding a spectator says "Dude, you forgot to activate your Disciple of the Vault like 5 times...remember next time, and you might be able to win")

- A spectator gives unsolicited advise to a player in the midst of a game.  What should another spectator do?  Call a judge who may ask the advise-giver to leave?  Simply tell the first spectator to shut up?  (most likely, the opponent will call for a judge or ask for silence, but if they don't should another spectator do it?)

- Can a player ask a spectator to keep track of the life totals?  Similarly, can they ask for spectator help in shuffling their Battle of Wits deck?

[brianb]

If a judge is close at hand, grab them quickly so they can sort it out.  At a high REL, there really ought to be plenty of judges floating around, so it shouldn't be a problem.  If a judge can't be grabbed immediately, I'd probably yell out loud for the judge so the players stop and don't make the situation worse.  Don't do this unless you're SURE you're right.  If you're not sure, grab the judge as quickly as possible without disrupting the game.  If it's just FNM or something and everyone is relaxed, it's probably fine for a spectator to point out a misrepresentation.

It's never fine, though, to point out play errors during a match.  That includes between games.  Save it for after the match.

As for unsolicited advice, just tell the offending spectator to STFU.  If either of the players wanted that spectator gone, he would have every right to demand that he leave.  If a judge observed the offense, he would probably make the spectator stop observing and impose a warning (or a greater penalty) if he was also a player in the tourney.

If a player wants a judge to keep track of life and/or shuffle, he could ask for him to do so.  This isn't uncommon in the final matches of a big tournament.  Having any other person do so would probably be okay only if both players in the match agreed to it.

[Toad]

- A spectator gives unsolicited advise to a player in the midst of a game.  What should another spectator do?  Call a judge who may ask the advise-giver to leave?  Simply tell the first spectator to shut up?  (most likely, the opponent will call for a judge or ask for silence, but if they don't should another spectator do it?)

If the spectator is not playing in the tournament, I'd ask him to leave the tournament location for the rest of the tourney. If he is a player, disqualification is an acceptable solution (Cheating - Others or Unsporting Conduct - Severe) under higher RELs.

As a general reminder : ALWAYS call a judge if you see something wrong happening WITHOUT interfering on the game or even informing the players.

[Matt]

While we're at it:

Once I was at a tournament and I saw someone cast a Pacifism on a Black Knight. Since the black player was much younger than the other, I assumed the one was trying to cheat the other, so I casually asked, "How did that card stay on a guy with protection from white?" The game state was quickly corrected, but did I do something wrong? I think not since I didn't actually give any advice.

[Jebus]

While we're at it:

Once I was at a tournament and I saw someone cast a Pacifism on a Black Knight. Since the black player was much younger than the other, I assumed the one was trying to cheat the other, so I casually asked, "How did that card stay on a guy with protection from white?" The game state was quickly corrected, but did I do something wrong? I think not since I didn't actually give any advice.

You're supposed to always get the judge.  You're never supposed to interfere yourself.

[ProZachar]

Similarly, can they ask for spectator help in shuffling their Battle of Wits deck?

No.

That's about the only thing the UTR/FR say about maximum deck sizes:  You must be able to shuffle your deck without assistance.

[riggy]

While we're at it:

Once I was at a tournament and I saw someone cast a Pacifism on a Black Knight. Since the black player was much younger than the other, I assumed the one was trying to cheat the other, so I casually asked, "How did that card stay on a guy with protection from white?" The game state was quickly corrected, but did I do something wrong? I think not since I didn't actually give any advice.

You're supposed to always get the judge.  You're never supposed to interfere yourself.

At the Darksteel pre-release, I was in a flight, and saw a player mis-use Chromatic Sphere + Darksteel Pendant (he filtered the mana, then used the pendant, then drew his card off the Sphere).  I didn't interfere, but still called a judge over. The judge told everyone in the area that for future reference, if you see illegal plays and neither player catches it (as in play moves on - don't jump on them), to politely ask them to stop their gameplay and to call a judge over.

I assume that this "polite asking" doesn't qualify as interfering, correct?

[Jebus]

I wouldn't tell them to stop.

[SliverKing]

I could argue either side of the issue. The longer the game goes on the harder it will be for the judge to repair, however if spectators start interfering you will get people calling judges over nothing and delaying matches. In general, non-judges disrupting matches has to be avoided.
As a judge I welcome players informing me of errors being made, however I dont want them saying a word to anyone playing.  At MOST I want them to call judge really loudly (indicating something is wrong).

[Matt]

While we're at it:

Once I was at a tournament and I saw someone cast a Pacifism on a Black Knight. Since the black player was much younger than the other, I assumed the one was trying to cheat the other, so I casually asked, "How did that card stay on a guy with protection from white?" The game state was quickly corrected, but did I do something wrong? I think not since I didn't actually give any advice.

You're supposed to always get the judge.  You're never supposed to interfere yourself.

I don't see how that was interfering. If you saw a, I don't know, Triskelion with twelve counters and asked how it got that way, is that interfering? There could have been a legitimate reason the Knight was enchanted.

[Jebus]

Technically, asking either player anything is interfering.

[TimeBeing]

sadly i am a judge and i have done thing befor, but yeah you should call a judge. every high level judge i've talk to have said call a judge. or go grab one. if itd FNM well say something, anything else. get a judge.