I thought I knew the basic rules for Lion's Eye Diamond that seemed fairly standard; you can use it in response to another spell on the stack and get the mana to use after. But after things I have recently heard about at two seperate large sanctioned Type 1 tournaments that ruled otherwise, I began to dig deeper to find out exactly what you can do with Lion's Eye Diamond, and if you can use it to cast spells directly from your hand (as was ruled at these large sanctioned events).
a spell during his first main phase, while the stack is empty, casting Wheel of Fortune. He then sacs Lion's Eye Diamond for red mana, discards his hand (paying the cost of the LED), and uses the RRR to pay for Wheel of Fortune. I am
referring to when a player pays for a spell (Wheel of Fortune in this case), and then sacs LED in response for more mana to use after the spell resolves.
, and here are the relevant rules I could find that would pertain to Lion's Eye Diamond:
203. Mana Cost and Color203.4. Any additional cost listed in an object’s rules text or imposed by an effect isn’t part of the mana cost. (See rule 409, “Playing Spells and Activated Abilities.�) Such costs are paid at the same time as the spell’s other costs.
212.5. Instants212.5e If text states that a player may do something “any time he or she could play an instant,� it means only that the player must have priority. The player doesn’t need to have an instant he or she could actually play.
212.7. Sorceries212.7a A player may play a sorcery card from his or her hand during a main phase of his or her turn, when he or she has priority and the stack is empty. Playing a sorcery as a spell uses the stack. (See rule 409, “Playing Spells and Activated Abilities.�)
212.7b When a sorcery spell resolves, the actions stated in its rules text are followed. Then it’s put into its owner’s graveyard.
213. Spells213.1. Every nonland card is a spell while it’s being played (see rule 409, “Playing Spells and Activated Abilities�) and while it’s on the stack. Once it’s played, a card remains a spell until it resolves, is countered, or otherwise leaves the stack. For more information, see rule 401, “Spells on the Stack.�
213.3. The term “spell� is used to refer to a card while it’s on the stack. The term “card� isn’t used to refer to a card that’s on the stack as a spell. It’s only used to refer to a card that’s not in play or on the stack, such as a creature card in a player’s hand.
217. Zones217.1. A zone is a place where objects can be during a game. There are normally six zones: library, hand, graveyard, in play, stack, and removed from the game. Some older cards also use the ante and phased-out zones. Each player has his or her own library, hand, and graveyard. The other zones are shared by all players.
217.1c An object that moves from one zone to another is treated as a new object. Effects connected with its previous location will no longer affect it. There are two exceptions to this rule: Effects that edit the characteristics of an artifact, creature, or enchantment spell on the stack will continue to apply to the permanent that spell creates, and abilities that trigger when an object moves from one zone to another (for example, “When Rancor is put into a graveyard from play�) can find the object in the zone it moved to when the ability triggered.
217.1d If an object would move from one zone to another, first determine what event is moving the object. Then apply any appropriate replacement effects to that event. If an effect or rule tries to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things to a particular object, that object’s controller—or its owner if it has no controller—chooses what the effect does to the object. Then the event moves the object.
217.6. Stack217.6a When a spell is played, the physical card is put on the stack. When an ability is played, it goes on top of the stack without any card associated with it. (See rule 409.1, “Playing Spells and Activated Abilities.�)
217.6c Each spell has all the characteristics of the card associated with it. Each activated or triggered ability that’s on the stack has the text of the ability that created it and no other characteristics. The controller of a spell is the person who played the spell. The controller of an activated ability is the player who played the ability. The controller of a triggered ability is the player who controlled the ability’s source when it triggered.
217.6d When both players pass in succession, the top (last-added) spell or ability on the stack resolves. If the stack is empty when both players pass, the current step or phase ends and the next begins.
401. Spells on the Stack401.1. A card on the stack is a spell. As the first step of being played, the card becomes a spell and goes on the stack from the zone it was played from (usually the player’s hand). (See rule 217.6, “Stack.�) A copy of a spell is also a spell, even if it has no card associated with it.
401.2. A spell stops being a spell when it resolves (see rule 413, “Resolving Spells and Abilities�), is countered (see rule 414, “Countering Spells and Abilities�), or otherwise leaves the stack.
401.6. Any spell can have static abilities that apply while the spell is on the stack. These include, but are not limited to, additional costs, alternative costs, and cost reductions. See rule 409, “Playing Spells and Activated Abilities.�
402. Abilities402.1. An ability is text on an object that’s not reminder text or flavor text (see rule 400.1). The result of following such an instruction is an effect. (See rule 416, “Effects.�) Abilities can affect the objects they’re on; they can also affect other objects and/or players. Abilities can grant abilities to other objects or to the objects they’re on; they do so when the words “has,� “have,� “gains,� or “gain� are used.
402.2. There are three general categories of abilities: activated, triggered, and static. Activated and triggered abilities can also be mana abilities. Abilities can generate one-shot effects or continuous effects. Some effects are replacement effects or prevention effects.
402.4. An additional cost or alternative cost to play a card is an ability of the card.
402.6. Once activated or triggered, an ability exists independently of its source as an ability on the stack. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, “Prodigal Sorcerer deals 1 damage to target creature or player�) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source will check that information when the ability resolves, or will use the source’s last known information if it’s no longer in play.
402.8. Abilities function only while the permanent with the ability is in play unless the ability is a characteristic-setting ability that sets type or color, an ability of an instant or sorcery, an additional cost, an alternative cost, or a play restriction. Abilities can also function in other zones if they state otherwise or if the ability can only trigger or be played in a zone other than the in-play zone. An ability whose cost or effect specifies that it moves the object it’s on out of a particular zone functions only in that zone.
403. Activated Abilities403.1. An activated ability is written as “[cost]: [effect].� The activation cost is everything before the colon (
. An ability’s activation cost must be paid by the player who is playing it.
403.5. Activated abilities that read “Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery� mean the player must follow the timing rules for playing a sorcery, though the ability isn’t actually a sorcery. Activated abilities that read “Play this ability only any time you could play an instant� mean the player must follow the timing rules for playing an instant, though the ability isn’t actually an instant.
406. Mana Abilities406.1. A mana ability is either (a) an activated ability that could put mana into a player’s mana pool when it resolves or (b) a triggered ability that triggers from a mana ability and could produce additional mana. A mana ability can generate other effects at the same time it produces mana.
406.2. Spells that put mana into a player’s mana pool aren’t mana abilities. They’re played and resolved exactly like any other spells. Triggered abilities that put mana into a player’s mana pool aren’t mana abilities if they trigger from events other than activating mana abilities. They go on the stack and resolve like any other triggered abilities.
406.4. A mana ability can be activated or triggered. Mana abilities are played and resolved like other abilities, but they don’t go on the stack, so they can’t be countered or responded to. See rule 411, “Playing Mana Abilities,� and rule 408.2, “Actions That Don’t Use the Stack.�
406.5. Abilities (other than mana abilities) that trigger on playing mana abilities do use the stack.
408. Timing of Spells and Abilities408.1b Spells and activated abilities are played by players (if they choose) using a system of priority, while other types of abilities and effects are automatically generated by the game rules. Each time a player would get priority, all applicable state-based effects resolve first as a single event (see rule 420, “State-Based Effects�). Then, if any new state-based effects have been generated, they resolve as a single event. This process repeats until no more applicable state-based effects are generated. Then triggered abilities are added to the stack (see rule 410, “Handling Triggered Abilities�). These steps repeat in order until no further state-based effects or triggered abilities are generated. Then the player who would have received priority does so and may play a spell or ability, take a special action (such as playing a land), or pass, as governed by the rules for that phase or step.
408.1e When a spell is played, it goes on top of the stack. When an activated ability is played, it goes on top of the stack.
408.2. Actions That Don’t Use the Stack408.2e Mana abilities resolve immediately. If a mana ability produces both mana and another effect, both the mana and the other effect happen immediately. If a player had priority before a mana ability was played, that player gets priority after it resolves. (See rule 406, “Mana Abilities.�)
409. Playing Spells and Activated Abilities409.1. Playing a spell or activated ability follows the steps listed below, in order. If, at any point during the playing of a spell or ability, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the spell was played illegally; the game returns to the moment before that spell or ability was played (see rule 422, “Handling Illegal Actions�). Announcements and payments can’t be altered after they’ve been made.
409.1a The player announces that he or she is playing the spell or activated ability. It moves from the zone it’s in to the stack and remains there until it’s countered or resolves. In the case of spells, the physical card goes onto the stack. In the case of activated abilities, the ability goes onto the stack without any card associated with it. Each spell has all the characteristics of the card associated with it. Each activated ability that’s on the stack has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. The controller of a spell is the player who played the spell. The controller of an activated ability is the player who played the ability.409.1f The player determines the total cost of the spell or ability. Usually this is just the mana cost (for spells) or activation cost (for abilities). Some cards list additional or alternative costs in their text, and some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost, activation cost, or alternative cost, plus all cost increases and minus all cost reductions. Once the total cost is determined, it becomes “locked in.� If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.
409.1g If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to play mana abilities (see rule 411, “Playing Mana Abilities�). Mana abilities must be played before costs are paid.
409.1h The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not allowed.
409.1i Once the steps described in 409.1a–409.1h are completed, the spell or ability becomes played. Any abilities that trigger on a spell or ability being played or put onto the stack trigger at this time. The spell or ability’s controller gets priority.
411. Playing Mana Abilities411.1. To play a mana ability, the player announces that he or she is playing it and pays the activation cost, following the steps in rules 409.1b–i. It resolves immediately after it is played and doesn’t go on the stack. (See rule 408.2e.)
411.2. A player may play an activated mana ability whenever he or she has priority, or whenever he or she is playing a spell or activated ability that requires a mana payment. A player may also play one whenever a rule or effect asks for a mana payment, even in the middle of playing or resolving a spell or ability.
411.3. Triggered mana abilities trigger when an activated mana ability is played. These abilities resolve immediately after the mana ability that triggered them, without waiting for priority. If an activated or triggered ability produces both mana and another effect, both the mana and the other effect resolve immediately.
413. Resolving Spells and Abilities413.1. Each time both players pass in succession, the object (a spell, an ability, or combat damage) on top of the stack resolves. (See rule 416, “Effects.�)
413.2b The controller of the spell or ability follows its instructions in the order written. However, replacement effects may modify these actions. In some cases, later text on the card may modify the meaning of earlier text (for example, “Destroy target creature. It can’t be regenerated� or “Counter target spell. If you do, put it on top of its owner’s library instead of into its owner’s graveyard.�) Don’t just apply effects step by step without thinking in these cases—read the whole text and apply the rules of English to the text.
416. Effects416.2. Effects apply only to permanents unless the instruction’s text states otherwise or they clearly can apply only to objects in one or more other zones.
417. One-Shot Effects417.1. A one-shot effect does something just once and doesn’t have a duration. Examples include damage dealing, destruction of permanents, and moving objects between zones.
417.2. Some one-shot effects instruct a player to do something later in the game (usually at a specific time) rather than when they resolve. This kind of effect actually creates a new ability that waits to be triggered. (See rule 404.4.)
As I understand the DCI rules above, announcing a spell is the first part of playing it, then paying the mana and any other costs (rule 409.1a).
a spell (Wheel of Fortune, in this case) during his first main phase when he has priority and the stack is empty.
- Wheel of Fortune moves from Player A's hand zone to stack zone.
- To pay the costs of the spell (Wheel of Fortune), Player A taps and sacrifices Lion's Eye Diamond for RRR as a mana ability.
- As an additional cost to pay for Lion's Eye Diamond, Player A must immediately discard his hand (where Wheel of Fortune is not, as it is now in the stack zone)
- Player A uses RRR in his mana pool (from Lion's Eye Diamond) to pay the mana cost of Wheel of Fortune, and this finishes paying all costs for the spell (just mana, in this case)
The reason all previous discussions in this forum don't makes sense to me is because when you go to play a spell, and announce it, the spell moves from your hand (a zone, as describe in rule 2.17.1) to the 'stack,' a different physical location (and different zone). You then pay the mana, and where you get that mana doesn't seem pertinent to the spell, because it has already left your hand and is now in the physical stack zone. I believe rule 409.1a to be the most important aspect of this discussion.
(2, 3, 4) please read everything above and then confirm whether this is correct or incorrect? Many thanks in advance.
