U/G Oath

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Ok, so after seeing Forbidden Orchard, I've been Fiendin' to build a good oath deck. I've tested a bit with my version, and so far it seems promising. I'll start with a list:

4 Oath of Druids
1 Cognivore
2 Krosan Reclamation

4 Mana Drain
4 FoW
4 Mana Leak

4 Brainstorm
4 AK
3 Intuition
2 Deep Analysis
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

7 SoLoMoxen
1 LoA
4 Tropical Island
6 Fetchs
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Islands


SB:
2 Morphling
4 Chalice
4 BEB
3 Back to Basics
2 Oxidize


Before anyone bashes me, hear me out. I chose cognivore over DC mainly because of welder. Welder sucks balls, and is 1 of two cards this deck hates to see when you have your combo (the other being StP). If they kill your cognivore via Edict, or such, it's no biggie, as you reclaim your cog, oath again, and swing. Yes it is risky, but remember, you do run 12 counters. Again, this is a metagame call. If you see decks packing MAD swords and removal, by all means play DC. I just think that with the rise of welder based decks, the cog is a better option.

The maindeck should be pretty self explanatory. The god draw is orchard, mox, oath, with FoW back up. Ofcourse the deck can also play mox, land, leak up, like monoU does (and play the control game).

As far as matchups goes, I won't go into great detail, but here's the rundown:

vs. Aggro: You beat them. Period. Oath was a metagame deck that was used to beat creature decks. Watch out for duplicants and such, but this matchup should be pretty easy.

Vs. Combo: Quite honestly, I haven't tested this thoroughly. It should be somewhat in your favor, as you run 12 counters, a better draw engine than most control decks, and a faster win condition.

Vs. Control: traditionally, this is where Oath died out. Keeper was always able to man-handle this deck because it could just drag oath into the late game, destroy the oath, and drop a phling for the win. With intuition/AK, you should be able to go toe-to-toe with most control decks' card drawing engine, and with orchard, you don't have to worry about the opponent controlling a creature.

Vs. Prison: Pretty even matchup. A turn 1 sphere can be deadly, but remember, you run basics, and if you get to 3 mana, you should be ok. They don't run any counters, so playing oath, followed up by intuition for 3 orchards should be game.

Finally, I feel I should explain the choices in the board. 4 Chalice is in there for combo. shutting off your brainstorm sucks, but it does a number on TPS and Deathlong style decks. It may also not be a bad idea to side these in vs. 4cc, if they board in REBs vs. you. 2 Morphling is strictly for the 4cc matchup. Swords is a pain, and phling > angel. 4 BEB is for FCG and Dragon. Dragon can be a huge headache especially if they run swarms. B2B should be pretty self explanatory. As far as oxidizes go, I found that this deck has no answers to platinum angel, so oxidizes were added to the board. Any ideas as to how to solve this problem? I did try cunning wish, but I didn't like them, as they were mad slow and most of the time I wished they were a counter or more draw. Anyways, comments welcome!

-Bob

[cophos]

Sorry, but imo the Vore is really bad. He dies to everything and cant play one of ur best utility cards: G. Blessing. Blessing is very good if played correctly. ( PLay Recall over and over again, same with AK's. ( Mill down ur Lib with an AK in Hand, next Turn shuffle the hole thing back. U could even play Merchant Scroll. )
I prefer the classic creature base. ( Morphling + weaver +weaver ( or feeder ) ) With the weaver u should have even less Problems with Aggro. ( Notice: most controldecks finish with creatures. ( weaver shuts down angels, juggis, even morphling. Another thing: the weaver is very good for doing some counter tricks with the fling. ( every turn a fog and +1 / +1 for ur shapesgifter. )
U dont really need the Sol Ring, i think. ( except for the chalices. )
A lot of Fetchlands u play. Better include wastelands. ( they make chalice much better. )
U should play more artifact hate, i think. Naturalize and Oxidize are very good cards. ( Null Rod woldnt be the best thing in ur deck. )
Energy Flux is pretty good too.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Cognivore is really strong. It can deal lethal damage most times you oath. Look at the decklist, there's 28 instants in there. Blessing, IMO is unneeded. Who needs recursion when you can just win? Don't even get started on the whole dragon thing, as a smart dragon player will just kill you with compulsion or sliver queen. reclamation is also HELLA strong vs. workshop decks. You oath out a cog, but they have welder and duplicant in the GY. Solution? Reclamation. As far as weaver/feeder goes, they suck ass. Seriously. The oly reason they were used was because morpling was a slow kill condition and you HAD to buy time vs. aggro. you don't need to buy time when there's a 10+/10+ flyier on the board. Again, I feel Cognivore is the best win condition. Welders are running amok, so DC is really risky. If oyu see alot of bad decks that run mediocre creature removal (aka sui black with dark banishing), then by all means, play DC. Before everyone and their mothers hate on cognivore, can anyone come up with a spell (that is played frequently) that gets rid of Cog but not DC? I can only think of Wish ----> Snuff out. Afterboard, if you expect to see REBs, you can board in Chalices and a morphling.

The fetches are in there so you can find trops with ease, as well as their synergy with brainstorm. While I did consider wastelands, I tossed the idea aside, as I took a more "Togish" perspective on the deck. What do you cut? 2 fetches, maybe a sol ring, and what else? LoA, Basics, and moxes are all pretty important.

[Vegeta2711]

Before everyone and their mothers hate on cognivore, can anyone come up with a spell (that is played frequently) that gets rid of Cog but not DC?

Red Elemental Blast obviously.

Tormod's Crypt is another favorite and it hits any Reclemations in the grave at the same time.

That's pretty much it for 'frequently' played that I remember atm.

EDIT: Oh have you considered mystical tutor over the 3rd Intution? I tend to have more luck with it, but w/o Tinker it's argueable if it's better or not.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

As far as REB goes, post board, you can always bring in a morphlng or chalices....

As far as crypt goes....hmmmm....you got me there. If dragon or rector is heavily hated, then I guess blessing/Collosus would be the better option.

[Timewalker]

I believe Cognivore is a great choice! Especially if you add Dragon's Breath!
2 Might be good though in case the 1 meets with STP. With regards to the issue of tormods and REB than bring in DSC from the sideboard if you're expecting such boards. Good Luck!

[Godot]

I believe Cognivore is a great choice! Especially if you add Dragon's Breath!  2 Might be good though in case the 1 meets with STP

Adding a card that is completely dead if you draw it is definitely the way to go.  Its such a pity Dragons Breath isnt blue.

2 Cogs is just a bad idea.  The goal is to get one thats huge, and running 2 just makes it all the more likely that probability is gonna come back and bite you in the ass.  Furthermore, its similar to Tog in that waiting to take out the Tog is the wrong strategy.  The Cog wont come down until the Oath player is ready to win, and at that point you'll have already lost--the life totals just wont reflect it yet.

EDIT: Oh have you considered mystical tutor over the 3rd Intution? I tend to have more luck with it, but w/o Tinker it's argueable if it's better or not.

Mystical Tutor makes me hard...but not in this deck.  As you pointed out the lack of Tinker hurts its usefulness, but also I thnk the 3rd Intuition is just generally more useful since you can use it to get combo pieces immediately.  If Mystical has a place in this deck I think it will be in place of a card other than the 3rd Intuition.

I think Vegeta hit on the major stumbling block though when he brought up Tormods Crypt.  We're entering that time in the metagame cycle when Dragon is successful again and the hate is about to/already has come back.  Dealing with a ubiquitous card like Crypt will get to be a pain.  Cog is still the better kill Game 1 though, IMO, and post board you can always just side in Morphling and control the game til you win.

[Timewalker]

I see the point of one Cogni, no problem there. having only one cog increases the probability of it being 20/20 or more.

I agree that it's painful if breath is in your hand, but isn't that what the brainstom + fetchland system is supposed to help you out with? The chances of an instant kill once the cog is oathed out is worth 1-2 Breath. 1-2 cards for 1 turn faster win is worth it, I believe. That one turn when Cogni is oathed out and still has summoning sickness, is still a window of opportunity for the opponent to do something nasty to your plans, no matter how well laid they may seem. A faster win simply means that there are less chances for the win to be disrupted.

[Mortal Wombat]

I think an important choice that has been talked about, a lot, but not really optimized, is the creature issue.  I think it would be helpful to look at some pros and cons to see which is better in the overall meta.

DSC-
Pros-
Always huge
Trample
Un-REBable
Un-Cryptable
Less susceptible to randomness
Makes Tinker and assorted tutors insane.
Allows you to cut Reclamations
Allows you to add Gaea's Blessing, if you so choose.
Cons-
Welder-able
Cognivore
Pros-
Sometimes >20 Power
Flying
un-Weldable

From this, I would venture to say that the Colossus is better, allowing tinker, less easily destroyed, and allowing you to cut reclamations, while Cogni's only real benefit is Un-Weldable.  However, there may be important factors I missed, so feel free to prove me wrong.

[dromar]

I recently played against a UG Oath deck on MWS, and it used DSC. I was playing TnT (or something, I get the names mixed up). Anyways, I couldn't weld it back to his library because of Gaea's Blessing reshuffling all his artifacts that I could trade with. Now that I think of it, I probably could have responded to the Blessing effect on the stack, but it didn't matter. Welding my Duplicant in and out worked just fine. Also, Platinum Angel seemed to be a problem for him. I dunno if he was playing the best possible version, but it was an interesting matchup for sure.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Why the fuck is everybody so worried about the cognivore dying? Seriously. They kill your cognivore....woopdiedoo...I'll reclaim it, then oath, making my cognivore even bigger. The ONLY card that hits cog that doesn't hit collossus is REB and Crypt. Both are SB cards, and you can play around REBs by bringing in Chalice. Tinker seriously dilutes this deck. Oath IS your tinker. Intuition IS your tutor. Lets take a look at all the best decks in the format:

Control Slaver:
They have NO way of dealing with cog pre-board except to get a platinum angel on the board. They have multiple ways of dealing with DC though.

Workshop aggro:
Again, colossus is a bane.

4cc:
Both suck ass due to the fact that 4cc runs wish and StP. Cognivore gets a heads up from me, as it can potentially deal more damage in one shot. This is where the 2 phlings post board come in.

MonoBlue:
Tied. MonoU can't do shit pre-board about a 11/11 or huge cog. I like cog more simply because it gets bigger as the game progresses, meaning that they simply can't chump it forever (which they can do to a DC if they hit enough mana).

Combo:
Again, cog is stronger. TPS and shit runs hurkyl's recall, so they can bounce your DC. Plus, again, cog gets stronger as the game progresses.

Aggro:
It really doesn't matter, as you race them anyday.



So again, nobody has proven why DC is a better call than Cog at the moment. Seriously people, stop giving a fuck about shitty sui decks that run dark banishing. I built this deck with a STRONG metagame in mind. in this case, I believe Cog is the strongest kill. As far as blessing goes, I can't see it being more effective than reclamation. reclamation lets you counter that one crucial weld, or to fuck over dragon.


Now on to some discussion. I've recently been unimpressed with the deep analysis. I replace them with 2 cunning wish and adjust my board accordingly. Anyone else have this problem? Deep is only good vs. control, and even then, it's not game breaking.

-Bob

[Grand Inquisitor]

You oath out a cog, but they have welder and duplicant in the GY. Solution? Reclamation

Why the fuck is everybody so worried about the cognivore dying? Seriously. They kill your cognivore....woopdiedoo...I'll reclaim it, then oath, making my cognivore even bigger

Duplicant and StP both remove Cognivore from the game, so it actually is a big deal.

What about running 1 darksteel collossus and 1 cognivore?  That way you hedge your bets both ways, and you have a back up if one gets removed.

Control Slaver:
They have NO way of dealing with cog pre-board except to get a platinum angel on the board. They have multiple ways of dealing with DC though.

They also have (infinite) pentavite tokens

I prefer the classic creature base. ( Morphling + weaver +weaver ( or feeder ) )

This doesn't really work anymore.  For one, most decks can win through weaver or morphling with ease.  The real reason why this doesn't work though, is that now that Orchard has been printed, the deck should really play combo control, not just straight control.  The guy you oath up should win in short order.  On that note, I can see this deck wanting black.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Last time I checked, StP and Duplicant also removes DC from the game, so that argument really doesn't hold.

As far as pentivites and angels, I am running 2 wishes right now in place of the 2 deep analysis. The most common target I get with Wish is Echoing truth, which deals with pentavites and angels. The wish does shore up many weaknesses.

I can't see why you would want black in the deck. Duress is nice, but mana leak does the same thing. Duress also can't deal with a topdecked bomb. Will is nice, but unnecessary. As far as tutors go, you have intuition.


EDIT:

As far as duplicant goes, most of the time, you can counter it. The only trouble is if they run welders, which you have reclamations to counter. Yes, swords suck, but thats why games 2+3 you have morphling to help the cause.

[Vegeta2711]

Main reasons for black: The tutors, which are usually better than Intuition, simply because they fetch Oath or Ancestral for cheaper. And Yawg's Will which is pretty good before Oath, basically is the nut high after it. And then like you said you can get Duress from the board or something to help w/ 4cc etc.

Basically for like 2 changed mana sources and cutting 3 cards to add the V and D Tutor + Will, you gain a immense amount of power in the deck. Of course some prefer the slight consistency plus, so I can see how it'd be less attractive.

Last time I checked, StP and Duplicant also removes DC from the game, so that argument really doesn't hold.

Mainly it's because there are generally 2 DC in Oath decks vs. 1 Cognivore, so they need to deal with 2 threats and not just the single one. Obviously if just compared 1 v 1 there isn't a difference.

Oh one thing, how's your match vs. Fish been? Has their ability to chump Cognivore to race and run manlands been an issue for you at all?

[JACO]

Last time I checked, StP and Duplicant also removes DC from the game, so that argument really doesn't hold.

As far as duplicant goes, most of the time, you can counter it. The only trouble is if they run welders, which you have reclamations to counter. Yes, swords suck, but thats why games 2+3 you have morphling to help the cause.

Having one win condition flat out sucks. You have no recourse if they manage to keep your Oaths off the table. Tormod's Crypt pretty much owns your deck, so how do you plan on getting around that? It's a very common hate card against Dragon right now, so you'd better prepare for it.

[Godot]

Tormod's Crypt pretty much owns your deck

This is only a hindrance in games 2/3 at which point, assuming you arent a dumbass, you'll be prepared to handle it by using a different kill condition or some other answer.

Also running only 1 Cog lets you Oath again the turn after you bring him out to guarantee max power--this is assuming of course that the Orchard is in play.  As a bonus dumping the entire library in the yard also opens up some nice Time Walk tricks if for some reason they are necessary.

RE: Chump blocking Cog

If you're running Wish then Berserk can handle these nicely.  I think running a Wish or two is a good idea as having no way to handle Platz or multiple chumpers before game 2 is not the goodness.

[Methuselahn]

I just don't get why this deck is 2 colors only.  Orchard produces every color, you should be tapping that tech.  In fact, the 3 colors you aren't using are best equipped to handle Welder for the DC plan.

[JACO]

I just don't get why this deck is 2 colors only.  Orchard produces every color, you should be tapping that tech.  In fact, the 3 colors you aren't using are best equipped to handle Welder for the DC plan.

This is almost spot on, as white sucks in Oath. I have tested 2, 3, 4, and 5 color versions, and in my opinion the most sucessful way to go is BUG or RUG. I prefer RUG, as it provides access to Fire/Ice, Rack and Ruin, Red Elemental Blast, Artifact Mutation, and even Crater Hellion. Black is decent because of Duress, Yawg Will, Pernicious Deed, Coffin Purge, etc. I also am not a big fan of Mana Leak, but that's just a personal preference. I'd rather play more Daze+Misdirection to make sure my plan in the very early game goes according to plan (i.e. get an Oath into play, use Hidden Orchard, activate Oath, own with Darksteel Colossus).

I'm not going to clutter the thread with my decklists, but the more you test, the more you'll find you want this deck to be able to assume a couple of roles, and RUG in particular lets you do that (combo, control, or even aggro when abusing something like Artifact Mutation early in the game post sideboard).

I was a fan of Cognivore in Extended, but that was because there is no Swords to Plowshares, no Red Elemental Blast, and no Tormod's Crypt. There was games where I would Oath out a 26/26 Cognivore, and others where I'd Oath out a 4/4. The 2 Gaea's Blessing + 2 Colossus configuration is just flat out better because of the consistency and protection it provides against many different opposing strategies.

[effang]

i've played this deck multiple times with neo-hulk as well as GAT. in all cases i lost horribly, as my ability to race becomes negated. however, as soon as i picked up this deck, there are still many problems that i face.

1: has anybody tried running standstill and factories? i remember the old oath decks ran factories and thus forced your opponent to cast some sort of answer (creature). yes, the orchard strikes a funny balance with factories, allowing them them a blocker whenever you attack, however most times orchard should be kept in hand until necessary.

2: why are we still running two gaea's blessings? i never quite understood the need for more than one. for a small loss, you can leave the card slot open for whatever else you need. it has been rare that i have been milling and milling and been unable to recur the GY when necessary, and blessing interacts negatively with your draw engine.

[jCoKn]

In my testing, I've found that Impulse serves a much more useful position here, and takes up less spots that intuition/AK. If we're trying to find Oaths, cards that let you see 3/4 cards deep are clutch. Brainstorm and Impulse IMO.

[Godot]

cards that let you see 3/4 cards deep are clutch

cards that let you draw 3/4 cards are even better

[MisterShark]

I'd rather play more Daze+Misdirection to make sure my plan in the very early game goes according to plan (i.e. get an Oath into play, use Hidden Orchard, activate Oath, own with Darksteel Colossus).

Even going a step further in supporting Misdirection maindeck: your opponent should always have that spirit token you gave him to Misdirect a StP to.

[mr.dark]

Hey Everyone!

First of all i would like to point out that this is my first post on TMD.
Furthermore i live in Denmark, so i apologize for bad spelling.

Now lets look at my decklist:


Kill: 5

4 Oath of Druids
1 Cognievore

Counters: 15

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Mana Leak
3 Misdirection

The rest of the instans: 16

4 Brainstorm
4 AK
3 Intuition
2 Cunning Wish
1 Krosan Reclamation
1 Time Walk ( Well its not an instant, but who cares?)
1 Ancestral Recall

Mana: 24

5 Solomoxen
1 Black Lotus
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island

Sideboard: 15

1 Hurkly's Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Naturlize
1 Misdirection
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Stifle
1 Berserk
3 Chalice of the Void/ Null Rod
2 Chill
2 Morphling


As you will notice i have chosen to run Cunning Wish as it can fetch anything you might need.
I think that what many of you forget is that this deck is not supposed to be played as a combo deck! Sure, in theory our wincondition is the obvious combo of Oath + a big creature. But that dosn't mean that we nessecary have to set up the combo during the first turns of the game.
We have counters and lots of cardadvantage, the deck will be good in the long game.
Misdirection simply seems to be rock solid, especially aginst the StP that so many people fears so much.
The sideboard needs some work, thought.

Another Intuition could be fittet into the board, but besides from that i think it looks quite good.

if the deck is builded right i think that it easily (at least until it is hated out) can be a really strong contender in type 1.

Also i think that the Chills in the board may be a waste of space, burn should not be our biggest problem.

Respons would be great!

Mickey DP.

[freakish777]

1: has anybody tried running standstill and factories?

Yes, it becomes a near auto-loss to Mono-U though, for those of you that care.  You wind up dropping just about all basic lands, they win just about all counter wars over the most important spell that each deck needs to resolve to beat the other.  Those being Oath and Back to Basics.  Eventually they will force a 'phid through, and draw into B2B and enough counter back up, after countering your first attempt at dropping Oath.

[Rico Suave]

I don't understand why people would want to run Mishra's Factory.  Is Oathing up something big not good enough?

[dromar]

I don't understand why people would want to run Mishra's Factory. Is Oathing up something big not good enough?

I agree. I think a more stable mana base would be more useful in this case.

[Tristal]

Mishra's Factory was -AMAZING- in the old school Morphling/Weaver/etc Oath decks.  The new decks are an extremely different breed and don't need Factory as they're honestly not even control decks anymore.

Mishra's Factory was for when you couldn't Oath something big up all the time.  There were plenty of matches where your Oaths would lie dead or relatively so (Sligh, mirror, keeper, combo), and Mishra's Factories were a godsend.  You gotta kill them somehow - hardcasting Weaver and swinging is kind of annoying.

The synergy between Factory and Oath is certainly nothing to scoff at.  Weaver/Factory wasn't so bad, either.

[Rico Suave]

The reason that Oath used Factories was because it wanted to beat Keeper, which was the deck to beat at the time.  Even Keeper decks during the time played Mishra's Factory to win the mirror, so I don't think it had anything to do with being good with Oath so much as beating Keeper. ;P

[mr.dark]

Hey I think that we all agree that the Factories is not a part of the new strategy. Therefore we should maybe try to devolp the deck instead of discussing why the factories were there in the first place

As i said before im not sure if the Chills are any good, anyone who has actually tested some of the common matchups?

Mrdark

[Machinus]

This is almost spot on, as white sucks in Oath. I have tested 2, 3, 4, and 5 color versions, and in my opinion the most sucessful way to go is BUG or RUG.

The 2 Gaea's Blessing + 2 Colossus configuration is just flat out better because of the consistency and protection it provides against many different opposing strategies.

If you want to win with Oath, listen to this. Two blessing and two colossus, and you must choose to maindeck either red or black as secondary. With orchard this is extremely easy. I maindeck black for duress and DT, but I side red cards and two volcanics. With orchard, you can cast any spell that you wish for, and with enough draw, you can get the fourth color if you need to. Post SB your deck should be finely tuned, with fetchlands, blasts, rack&ruins, purges, or whatever you need.