[Brainstorming] Perfecting Tendrils combo builds.

[ViRidIAnLoNGBoW]

Rozetta wrote:

I've actually been pondering the usefulness of Windfall. I put something U/B (no Wheel) together last night to goldfish and accidentally left the Windfall out of the deck. ?

not running any draw7 spell in TPS is almost the same as not running tendrils.  Without windfall and wheel you have only 3 draw7's and timespiral realistically cant be cast before turn 3 so in essence you are making your deck almost a full turn slower.

[Driven]

"Perfecting Tendrils combo builds"

I can understand that if we are trying to create a "Perfect" build for Tendrils-based decks that arguing single cards in or out of the deck will occur and is, in fact, at times useful.  However, when a post is created with a innovative idea and become filled with debating over three or four cards, I believe the innovative side of Vintage's best becomes, in a sense, stifled.  No pun intended for the mentioned deck;)

I believe that we are all in agreement that we are dealing with primarily four versions of Tendrils -- Draw7, DeathLong, TPS (U/B), and TPS (5c).  
We all agree that each deck has specific characteristics as speed, consistency, disruption or bombs that give it a place in our Vintage level, though each differs on which.

The question posed pertained to "What is the Perfect Tendrils-based combo?"  This implies our current meta -- which changes according to where you live.  Living in the Northeast US, I've found our meta to be filled with primarily Workshop-based decks, Slaver/Titan, Mono-U or Fish, but also includes Tendrils, Dragon, 'Tog, FCG, and numerous other decks which occasionally pop up (i.e. Landstill, Belcher(s), Aggro, Oath, 4cc (yes, occasionally), and multiple others.)  I don't know the current meta's in other area's, but ask if it is very different from the above mentioned list, please post such.

If our post is aiming strictly at the current metagame, this is much different from aiming at Tendrils as a whole.  I believe this post is aimed towards Tendrils as a whole -- so if your meta includes more Workshop based decks, yes, more removal might be wise.  If Deathlong is better for your meta, yes, Consultation generally should be included -- I don't see why not for already stated reasons. But if we're staying away from the specific meta, and try to just create a "New and improved" version of Tendrils, I believe that (excluding the first page and MaxxMatt's post) we're turned away from "Perfecting Tendrils" and have just started what we see in each Tog, Fish and 4cc build -- arguments over personal preferences.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I believe that we should try to focus more in innovative ideas rather than debating if Frantic Search, Demonic Consultation, or a fourth copy of bounce would be included in our final build.  We began this post started from the bottom working our way up, beginning first with the mana base, needed brokenness, Tendrils, and Draw 7.  I believe the new questions to pose are:  Do metagame cards need to fill out the rest of the deck?  Does metagame depict such a strong force right now that we can't have one solid Tendrils combo build?  Is it even possible?

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I did 100 goldfishes with the following build:

Mana:
2 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
5 island
1 swamp
2 underground sea
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual

Broken: 17
4 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Memory Jar
1 Time Spiral
1 Windfall
1 Mind's Desire
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Win: 2
2 Tendrils of Agony

9 Support slots:
4 duress
2 hurkyl’s recall
1 rebuild
1 chain of vapour
1 demonic consultation

These were the results:

100 goldfish sample distribution:

Mulligan frequency: 1 mull EXACTLY= 12 times
2 mulls EXACTLY= 4 times
I never mulled more than twice

kill turn:
1= 4  
2=15 total 19
3=36 total 55
4=18 total 73
5=10 total 83
6=6 total 89
7=2 total 91
8=2 total 93
9=1 total 94
10=1 total 95
own self: 5 (3 from consultation 2 from necro, these not included in the rest of the analysis)

Mean(Average): turn 3.67
Median: turn 3
Mode: turn 3

Sample Standard Deviation: 1.68 turns

Obviously goldfishing tells us only so much about how a deck preforms, and testing against established archetypes is the next step.

I think I may reconsider cutting consultation, considering it killed me 3 games in which I consulted either for ritual or brainstorm, by removing both tendrils (ironically at least 2 times I consulted for lotus sucessfully and with no ill effects).  It's definately quite random.  I might consider replacing it with frantic search to see how that goes.

As for specific cards: I found desire and bargain to be the most broken cards when going off- necro comming next and then will as the least powerful.  I was happy with timespiral and the bounce.  Draw7--> bounce--> replay artifcacts--> tendrils-->win occured with quite some frequency.
LED was great.  Popping it in response to a draw 7 almost ensures that you go off that turn, and it is of course also usefull with will.

Driven:
I don't think it's possible to make a "perfect build" without taking into account a meta; every deck must take the meta into account; it's how we define what decks are good and what decks are not.  My build maindecks 4 bounce spells to deal with problem premenants, due to the popularity of workshop decks and how devastating their lock pieces are to storm combo.  Do we just pretend there is no meta and thus cut the bounce?  What about cutting duress- it's useless if your opponent's deck doesn't run non-creature non-land spells.  I think we assume it to read" "Pefecting Tendrils combo builds for the current meta."

As for debating over single card choices, how else do you "perfect" a build without optimizing every single slot?  However, I do agree with you that there comes a point when further discussion about specific cards becomes pointless due to both sides being firmly entrenched in their arguements.

Yes, metagame slots need to fill out the rest of the deck.

[heiner]

About FOW in Tendril's combo:

I dont think it is needed vs 3sphere but vs. Keeper/Control cause 3spehre can be bounced. As for my experiences Keeper can handle 2 threads in the early game. That means one FOW and a drain turn 2.

One solution is duress the FOW and go crazy before the control player has 2 blue wich is very hard.

The other is having FOW on your own. FOW is card disadvantage but if you get through necro or bargain it just doesnt matter. Without FOW you need 2 threads (+duress). But there are very few good threads as already mentioned. So I think FOW is a must. Another really important thing is, that it cost NO mana. You almost always need every of your mana to cast the game breaking spell so 0cc disruption speel that increases your storm count is just amazing!

Another card I have been toying around is Lim Dul's Vault. I like it a lot because its almost a tutor and the good thing is that you can stack land, Necro for example if you just need the third black mana.  So tutoring for 2 cards happens pretty often.

I removed one bouncer to play a cunning wish MD. Its much more flexible with bounce, draw (meditate) and search(Lim Dul) in the SB.

[Shaman]

In a TPS-like build, with 4x FoW and 4x Duress and some random bouncer (plus Cunning Wish), I would strongly suggest the inclusion of Skeletal Scrying (one or two, even if I saw Thug's list with 3 of them)  in the sideboard. They are really strong against control and you can define them as an "instant-bargain". Removing some random card like lands from the graveyard is not a problem (you even get a better effect after Twister/Spiral), and you can refill your hand. Maybe 3 Skeletal are too many, but 2 seems to be the right number, IMHO.

[Phele]

I don't see a reason for Cunning Wish main, when you have all necessary solutions maindeck. I just cut the wish in my TPS build in favor of the already mentioned Lim Dul's Vault. It can get me any card(draw or bounce) needed as well and I usually play it eot as I did with Cunning Wish. The only thing it can't get is the secondary win condition Brain Freeze, what I never used and for what I like to play Colossus main. Without Cunning Wish you can build a much stronger sideboard, without too many one ofs.

On FoW: Even though Death Long was highly recommended in the last weeks, I don't see it constantly winning without FoW and Basic Lands. For Example: U/R Stax is a matchup you just lose most of the times, when you don't win the die roll. First turn Trinisphere followed by Wasteland or Smokstack is just game. I prefer decks, which can compete with any deck type. FoW and Basic Lands give you this possibility in Tendrils Builds.

[rozetta]

The FoW issue still seems to be strong. If you look back to the days of Neo-Academy, that deck ran very little black, no rituals, and a lot of blue cards (with redundant pitchable win conditions) making FoW an easy inclusion and duress a no. Then came long and deathlong which were black-heavy (and blue-light) enough to prefer duress.

We're certainly at an intersection here, with decks running sometimes just enough blue cards to support FoW (albeit that most of them don't really want to be pitched) but also the black and rituals to support duress.

FoW pros:
- additional disruption
- can prevent early game auto-loss (either by stopping disruption or opponent's deck going off)

FoW cons:
- slows down deck / dilutes effectiveness of draw7s, desire
- not always preferrable in a topdecking situation
- often don't want to pitch the deck's other blue cards to it (minor)

I've been working on a 4-color build of a Tendrils deck containing duress and bounce as defense. So far the goldfish, at least, seems to be mostly happening on turn 2. I haven't narrowed the card choices down completely enough, nor done enough testing to want to post a list here yet. I've also been working on a couple of exciting new deck ideas (since my Kamigawa cards arrived) which have been taking my focus away from this project a little (in addition to being busy in my non-Magic life). However, I'm still interested in hearing opinions or even sample decklists, and I'll post my list as soon as possible.

To address the issue of discussing single cards, I think it is something worth doing, especially for those cards which might be borderline in terms of power or usefulness in the deck. There is obviously enough opinon about certain card choices between different designers here and it's often nice to know people's reasons for the inclusion or omission of certain cards.

Since the discussion here has been quite heavily weighted around the U/B versus 5-colour builds, maybe we need to take some time to discuss those cards which make the difference between the two builds. We've already touched on Wheel of Fortune and slightly on Xantid Swarm. The next cards to consider are Fastbond and Crop Rotation.

My opinion is that Fastbond is not, by any means, an auto-include in a Tendrils deck, especially one which runs fewer lands. Ironically, it might seem more at home in a Tendrils deck running 15 lands like TPS, were it 5-colour instead of U/B. ESG can also help casting it.

Crop Rotation, on the other hand, I think is a pretty nice addition. Okay, it is slightly conditional in that you have to have played enough artifacts and not drawn Academy, but it's often a very nice way to up storm count and suddenly be able to cast a Mind's Desire out of nowhere. It's also especially useful with Frantic Search. However, I'm not sure if it's alone worth going away from the more stable U/B base. Essentially, changing the manabase from U/B to 5-colour gives us Wheel and Rotation. I suppose the question is: do these speed the deck up enough over the U/B version to be worth it? I'm still unsure myself, but I am leaning towards the fact that they probably do.

[Nehptis]

On the FOW issue: In my multi-color Tendrils build I have worked 4 x FOWs into the SB.  Reasoning is that they are much stronger in some matches than in others.  However, I have begun testing 4 SB Oaths in the FOW spots with the MD addition of Orchards.

Fastbond:  I don't see any use for it.

Crop Rotation: I use it and believe that it is srongly tethered to Frantic Search.  No need to play 1 without the other.  However, these 2 spots are among the weakest in the deck.  If something better came along, they would be among the 1st to go.

4/5 C vs U-B:  Again if you plan on playing U/B I think that the strongest build is TPS and anything else (U/B) is inferior.  For 4/5 Color builds, I think that you either have the Death Wish build or a build without the Wishes that we have been discussing.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

About FOW in Tendril's combo:

I dont think it is needed vs 3sphere but vs. Keeper/Control cause 3spehre can be bounced. As for my experiences Keeper can handle 2 threads in the early game. That means one FOW and a drain turn 2.

One solution is duress the FOW and go crazy before the control player has 2 blue wich is very hard.

The other is having FOW on your own. FOW is card disadvantage but if you get through necro or bargain it just doesnt matter. Without FOW you need 2 threads (+duress). But there are very few good threads as already mentioned. So I think FOW is a must. Another really important thing is, that it cost NO mana. You almost always need every of your mana to cast the game breaking spell so 0cc disruption speel that increases your storm count is just amazing!
.

The point is that whatever you pitched to the fow was most likely another threat anyways, and the slots devoted to the fow could be used for something else.  Control can be dealt with using duress and by overwhelming them with threats; fow is not necessary, nor is it even necessarily better to have.  It dilutes your threat density and does not help you to combo off other than by disrupting your opponent.

@ rozetta: The build you metioned seems to work on a similar principle to mine (duress and bouce), merely adding the 2 addional colours.  Although this would make it faster and more broken, it also opens you up to more non-basic hate, so there is an ovbious trade-off.

Cunning wish: I also don't think it is necessary.  The maindeck should focus on dealing with the most common hate cards to combo off and then win, not on fetching silver bullets/toolbox cards.  Also, if you run 1 chain of vapour as well as twister/will you have a bit of a catch-all for permenants.

Nephitis: As for your opinion on traditional TPS (that is, with fows) being superior to all other U/B builds, I obviously disagree, and I think that my build illustrates a different direction for the deck to take: relying on duress and artifact bounce instead of running fow and diluting threat density.

And, yes, rotation/search can be amazing but they are conditional and thus random in their quantity of usefullness.

I've been really busy lately and thus unable to test the search over consultation in my build, but when I do I will post the results.

[heiner]

[

 Control can be dealt with using duress and by overwhelming them with threats; fow is not necessary, nor is it even necessarily better to have.  I

Exactly this is the problem: You dont have enough good threats to overwhelm the control player. Id rather force through my bargain (with FOW) pitching a Brainstorm, than getting my bargain countered and draw into crap with my brainstorm.

You dont need card advantage. You just have to resolve one critical spell. And as I already mentioned: It is a huge difference in casting bargain or bargain+Brainstorm (having to spend 6 or 7 mana) . FOW costs Nothing.

My experience is that if you dont resolve a critical spell early vs. 4cc, you loose! 4cc has better draw if they get their scrying engine running and you wont catch up anymore.

[MaxxMatt]

About FoW's issue.

Anyone of the possible discard effects would not ever compete with the efficiency of a single FoW, because Discard's effects don't have ANY KIND of control on the opponent's Topdeck. You can duress away their bombs and they can win an entire game in their next draw-phase because YOU choose to play with Duresses instead of FoWs.

FoW's power is overhelming if compared with Duresses exactly because your combo deck is made to survive and win usually AFTER that FoW.
If you choose to pack in your full set of Duress and if you decide to choose FoWs OR Duress, you would be prepared to survive to ONLY HALF of the possible things that can happened to you. You are not considering anyone of the threats that the opponent's deck can produce DURING HIS OWN TURN.

If you feel so confident in your deck you can pack NO DEFENCES at all and "hope" about the "opponent's inability to deal with you". In other words play Belcher.

If you feel that your deck can win a lot but NEED a way to escape from inevitabilties, FoW are a must AND Duress are the only second good choice.


----------------------------


To enlarge a bit the discussion and to underline some possible deck's evolution, I can say to you that we are testing and playing an UB-TPS' build WITH a single red card maindeck and a single ( or two at his maximum ) red cards in side.

Play my primer's list with those changes.

MAINDECK
------------------
+1 Fetchland
+1 Volcanic Island
-1 Swamp
-1 LOA

+1Wheel of Fortune
-1 Time Spiral
 

SIDEBOARD
---------------
+1 Pyro
( +1 R&R but it isn't so good IMHO)
-1 of the blue/black bombs against control.

Time Spiral could not be cutted at all, but substituded with one of the cards that you don't feel are needed in the maindeck.

This version work exactly as the previous one but we find that it loses almost nothing if we are talking about consistency WHILE it gain the good old red bomb AND a good sideboard's card.

[Phele]

A question I really would like to see discussed is: With the growing number of combo decks around (belcher, Death Long, TPS), what do you think is the best answers you could put in the sideboard. Especially the slower builds have to adapt a bit I think. The only answers I could imagine for a U/B build are stifle or even more counters but this decission seems really weak.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

About FoW's issue.

Anyone of the possible discard effects would not ever compete with the efficiency of a single FoW, because Discard's effects don't have ANY KIND of control on the opponent's Topdeck. You can duress away their bombs and they can win an entire game in their next draw-phase because YOU choose to play with Duresses instead of FoWs.

FoW's power is overhelming if compared with Duresses exactly because your combo deck is made to survive and win usually AFTER that FoW.
If you choose to pack in your full set of Duress and if you decide to choose FoWs OR Duress, you would be prepared to survive to ONLY HALF of the possible things that can happened to you. You are not considering anyone of the threats that the opponent's deck can produce DURING HIS OWN TURN.

If you feel so confident in your deck you can pack NO DEFENCES at all and "hope" about the "opponent's inability to deal with you". In other words play Belcher.

If you feel that your deck can win a lot but NEED a way to escape from inevitabilties, FoW are a must AND Duress are the only second good choice.

Reactive disruption will always have an advantage of proactive disruption.  This doesn't mean that cards such as duress, wasteland, null rod, etc, are bad cards.  They are all very good cards, mainly because they disrupt your opponent's game plan while expending minimal resources.  For the deck the investment of the fow+ 1 other blue card is a steep price.  Yes, if you resolve bargain or w/e it doesn't matter, but that is a poor argument because fow cannot always be used allow you to resolve one.  One card and 1 black mana can often trade itself for what a fow would (or course, not always, and your opponent doesn't expend the resources to cast it).

Many belcher builds don't even run duress, and scoop to first turn trinisphere.  Even if a deck doesn't pack fow it can deal with workshop deck lock components by having a good mana base and plenty or artifact bounce that isn't just useful to disrupt your opponent.  If you look at my build you can see that despite the lack of fow it doesn't simply hope to win based on pure speed.

Resolving a fow is usually better than resolving a duress, but fow requires the investment of additional card, specifically a blue one, something most combo decks don't like to do.  Duress has the disadvantage of being proactive but requires less card investement and shows one one's opponent's hand, a useful piece of information.

Sometimes the opponent will topdeck well, but ususally the single topdeck isn't relevant, and despite the investment of B it is still possible to go off that turn before they have another draw phase.

Also, this isn't relevant most of the time, but there are some things that duress can deal with that fow can't.  (mainly Desire)  As a combo deck the problem cards that fow deals with and duress can't aren't very relevant to you (creatures).

It would be silly to say that fow is a bad card and shouldn't be run at all, but I think that it is possible to deal with the main hate card enemies of combo through other means, thus making it not abosolutely necessary to run fow and dilute the deck's threat density.

@Phele: As for sideboard options vs other combo decks, It would be possible for my build to run null rod/chalice in the board to slow the opponent down, and then simply go off without using artifact mana (I run more land), or bounce it back to my hand at their eot and then go off.

[FreshIsOuttaTurn]

Hey kiddies,

Nice little conversation you got going here and I just wanted to make a few points...

For one, I like how you are trying to innovate for Tendrils builds in an attempt to make them more b0rken but I think you are going about it the wrong way.  I encourage all of you playing currently to take a version of DeathLong, TPS, or Draw7 and play it.  A lot.  Get so used to it you dream about it.  Learn why it wins, and how and I don't mean, I cast tendrils for a gagillion (we know that).  I mean, what is the right order of cards to cast for maximum abuse.  If you can actually break playing any of the 3 deck (preferrably Long, though) down to a science where you know what the right plays are then you have the basis for retooling it.

As of now it seems that you are more blindly trying new things or trying to change something for the "better" and not realizing how much worse it is actually becoming.  Try to step back and compare your results to the given results for the most similar of the three established combo decks.  I am relatively sure yours will be worse.  The point is, you need to accept if your ideas aren't working and try something else.

So back to my first point... Once you can establish exactly why and how Long is so good and resilent, try to find answers to the weaknesses that can fufill the role of a similar, less ideal card.  This means really testing, but not big changes.  Just small stuff like Hurkyl's Recall vs. Rebuild (for example) or the proper number of Elvish Spirit Guides.  The best way to go about this perfection is probably to start off with the best version out there and make it better.  Starting at the back just makes you have to run that much more to get first.


With that said... I disagree strongly with Gandalf's above statement about reactive disruption being superior to reactive.  I am not sure how you reached this statement but I feel this is largely wrong.  If you look at the issue from a strictly theoretical standpoint, yes FoW is the nuts while Duress is the nut low (relatively speaking).  But because FoW is completely reactive in nature, it sits dead until an opponent does something, something quite contrary to the popular science of combo.  I am in no way saying FoW is not a great card or isn't good BUT in a deck like Belcher or Long or Draw7 where you are trying to outrace, outdraw, and outb0rken your opponent, Duress will ALWAYS be better.  Duress is proactive, therefore you cast it once and it doesn't matter what your opponent does.  Given it cannot stop topdecks, but I'll live with that.  Why is Duress so devastating against Control and Combo? Because it hits them first.  FoW can easily be played around.  Duress must be countered or Brainstormed around.  In either case, Ill be happy.  If they countered my Duress they probably are screwed when i drop Necro, and if they don't Brainstorm, ill nail any counter they have and still crush them.

In closing, make sure to stick to the established big guns and work from there, and secondly, Duress IS a threat against most decks nowadays, not just disruption.  Either they open up the door for GG or they just stopped your plan before it got started.

[ruken]

I believe some discussion was made earlier in the topic card drawing, with someone even stating to the effect of considering weaker card drawers like Night's Whisper and Infernal Contract (and Skeletal Scrying.. good in 4cc, but X spells have got to be terrible for TPS)

I'm not terribly intimate with the TPS mechanisms, but I feel it's important to mention since I haven't seen anyone else bring it up, and Jesus Christ, I can't find the primer on it.  Given the branch of thinking to attempt to format these decks into a U/B direction, how does Gush fit into the scheme?  Having two islands in play should be more common.  Gush can also generate mana in tight situations, amusingly enough, which is a nice minor bonus.  Admittedly it is rather clunky and doesn't draw many cards, but it's not entirely bad, and casting for free = some good.

Certainly someone, somewhere, must have already considered this, but I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere myself.  It's GOTTA be better than Skeletal Scrying, anyway.

[Shaman]

@ruken: a friend of mine tested Gush in TPS U/B, but he told me he was not satisified by this card at all. I have not have tested it yet, so I cannot say anything about it. About the Skeletal matter, I still consider it a GREAT sideboard card against Control and the mirror, since it is:
- a great topdeck card when you have plenty of mana;
- an instant drawer you can play EOT;
- a drawer that is immune to Misdirection;
- you can always find cards in your graveyard you can put out of the game (fecthlands, etc.).
I am loving Skeletal against 4CControl a lot. Your porpouse in this game is to cast with success a key spell, that often is Necro/Bargain. Skeletal, somewhat, as I told before, can be considered an instant Bargain you can do EOT without drawbacks. Obviously X-spell aren't generally good in a combo deck, but as I told before I consider it a huge weapon only against Control and a few other archetypes.

[Nehptis]

I'm thinking that to renew interest in this thread it may be beneficial to begin discussing SB options.

With the recent influx of Oath decks this match should be a major concern for this deck.  As well as the moderate use of CE.  Of course we also have the other staple matches to SB against.  Some basic thoughts on the non-Oath matchups are:

3pheres/COV/Enchantments like Arcane Lab: SB bounce in the form of  HRs/Rebuilds/Chains
Control Matchups: FOWs or Swarms if running 5C lands
Cranial E: We need to prepare for this.  If you are running 5C then Burning Wish MD will protect against a CE.  But, what do you do if you are not running BWs or DWs?
Storm Mirrors: Stifle

Regarding the Oath matchup, I was toying around with an Oath transformational SB for Tendrils combo.  Basically it involves using 4 MD F Orchards and 4 Oaths and a creature (DSC?) in the SB.  The other idea is to use something like an Engineered Plague to keep the Spirits off the board and negating the Oath factor.  Of course the 12+ counters in the Oath deck are a problem, as well.

EDIT: Looking through the MTGNews USG, it seems that another good choice to consider is Altar Of Dementia.  Someone in a different thread mentioned Blasting Station, as well.  I'm thinking that EP or AoD are the strongest choices at this time.

[ViRidIAnLoNGBoW]

After watching Oath dominate the Virginia SCG tournament and having it ultimately keep me out of the T8, I immediately began to think of a way to stop it.  My first thought was annul, which is good against workshop, but the chances of it actually getting through around 14 counters are slim, so my next thought was a card that can't be countered-orchid.  Oath only runs 2-3 strip effects and you only need to activate it a few times to stall them for you to pull of a win.  my projected sideboard looks like this:
3-orchid
2-echoing truth
2-cranial extraction
2-backto basics
1-stifle
1-skeletal scrying
1-brainfreeze
1-fact or fiction
1-hurkyls recall
1-DSC

[Jacob Orlove]

Why not just MD the orchards? That way, you can SB Oath yourself, if you want.

[FreshIsOuttaTurn]

I think that may be the very first attempt by anyone in this thread to add new possibly better cards to an already good deck.  I was hoping the discussion would head in that direction naturally, but all's well that ends well.

The idea of Oaths SB is a pretty strong plan, though testing may or may not support this idea.  Against some decks, namely the other Oath decks, you could trick them into activating their own oath for you with Orchard of your own and possibly get out the goodness that is your own Colossus.

I have already modified my own DeathLong to include 3 orchards because they often generate free colored mana at no pain because I just cast Tendrils for a bazillion but the idea of possibly abusing Oath completely slipped under my radar.  I have a feeling that a SB that featured 4 Oath, 1 DC (if you dont already run one MD or like 2) and then your other normal toolbox could really bring up some surprising turn of events on decks such as Stax that expect you to be stopped relatively well by one or two cards.  If you lose game 1 due to the whole random Turn 1 Trinisphere + Turn 2 lock components, their turn 1 trinisphere might not look so good when you drop a first turn oath.

Id advocate testing the semi tranformational SB and looking into abusing the brokenness of Long's speed and Oath's "Haha free fat wins" factor.  It may not be as fast as Long but if you can put a clock on an opponent one way with a fast DC and then while they answer that you can set up your combo kill by usual means with your Oath enchanced graveyard and a juicy Will.

Just a few things to think about.

[Nehptis]

@ViRidIAnLoNGBoW: I agree with Jacob.  Orchards should be MD.  The downside of creating 1/1s against non-Oath decks is minimal.

@Jacob: Congrats to yourself and your team for winning the SCG II.  As I mentioned in my earlier post, I'v considered the Oath Trans-SB.  My concern is that in the Oath matchup I'm effectively playing a worse version of their deck.  I think the correct play is to run SB hate for Oath.  What are your thoughts of facing a deck that drops either an Altar of Dem or an Engin Plague against your Oath deck?  TOA has the speed and disruption (Duress) to force an Altar or Plague through and effectively negate the Orchard / Oath Combo.

@FreshIsOuttaTurn: I agree at some level, but see my points to Jacob above.  However, you make a strong arguemnt for the Oath SB against other deks like Stax.  What are your thoughts of running the Hate in the form of Plague or Altar?  The issue of course is that 3 or 4 SB spots are effectively "wasted" on only 1 deck.  But, if a large % of the field is Oath, then it's not that bad of a plan.

[Jacob Orlove]

The best plan against oath (beyond running your own orchards) is to just treat it like a regular control deck, and play the same as you would against, say, Tog or Mono-U.

And yeah, SB Oaths would be for decks where they give you strategic superiority, like Stax. There's no other reason to run a transformational SB.

[andrewpate]

@FreshIsOuttaTurn:  I doubt you can trick them into letting you Oath if they have seen storm combo because they will be afraid of that whether you secretly have Colossus or not.  Just flipping up a Swarm is bad enough because it puts a lot more cards in your graveyard to use when you Will, possibly rendering that the single spell you actually have to force through.

[Rainula]

xantid swarms have been used to good affect incombo before and I think that they can here as well.    Oath seems to worry alot of people and I understand why.  However xantids give you a free turn to go off because the current version of oath has no maindeck removal.  They swing twice with Angel or SotN and gt you down to low, you attack with xantid and have hopefully by then developed a hand that can win.  If you see alot of standard build oath, then just put can't die angel in your deck and not xantid, you will almost certainly win that game.

[ump]

I don't know if this thread is about finding the best tendrils deck or finding the best TPS deck.  Anyways, here is the version that I have been working on for a few months.  I took it to a tournament yesterday, but I failed the deck constantly mulliganing, making terrible mistakes, and falling one turn short of going off.  However, that's another issue that I won't go into further in this thread.

TPS/g - The Perfect Storm

Lands - 14
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

Accelerators - 14
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual

Protection - 8
4 Duress
4 Xantid Swarm

Search - 4
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Crop Rotation
1 Regrowth

Bounce - 2
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild

Cycle - 1
1 Time Walk

Draw 2 - 1
1 Gush

Draw 3 - 5
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm

Draw 4 - 1
1 Meditate

Draw 7 - 3
1 Timetwister
1 Time Spiral
1 Memory Jar

Draw X - 3
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Mind's Desire

Win - 2
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard - 15
4 Force of Will
4 Hydroblast
2 Naturalize
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Platinum Angel

Deck Analysis

Why the variation from The Perfect Storm?

Summary
1) 4 Force of Will -> 4 Xantid Swarm
2) 1 Underground Sea, 1 Swamp -> 2 Tropical Island
3) 1 Library of Alexandria -> 1 Crop Rotation
4) 1 Cunning Wish -> 1 Regrowth
5) 1 Windfall -> 1 Meditate
6) 1 Frantic Search -> 1 Gush

Details
1) Xantid Swarm are much better protection against control decks that Force of Will.  I tend to always maindeck for control so Swarms are in the maindeck.  With Force of Will, Hydroblast, Xantid Swarm, and Duress, you can pick the best protection for your combo for games two and three.
2) The mana base needs to support the swarms.  I have found that 2 Tropical Islands are plenty.  Trying to splash red for Wheel of Fortune ruins the mana base.
3) Crop Rotation is a storm generator and can help you get the Tolarian Academy.  In some cases, it can turn a Tropical Island into an Underground Sea.
4) Cunning Wish is used to get answers.  With your protection, you should need less answers.  There are not too many bombs in this decks.  Using Regrowth to reuse a bomb is good.  It can also be used to reuse a lotus to up the storm count.
5) Both are primarily used to help go off.  Windfall is better with a bunch of draw sevens that this version doesn't have.  The loss of a turn is not really a drawback.
6) Both are primarily used to help go off.  Gush can cost no initial mana and you don't have to discard two cards.  It also has a minor role in helping against Wastelands or allowing to replay a land you return for the needed mana.

Sideboarding Strategies

Protections
The first step to sideboarding is to figure out the correct protection between Swarm, Duress, FOW, and Blasts.  Here is a general strategy.  The maindeck is setup for the control matchup.

Swarm -> FOW: Combo
Swarm -> Blast: Welder
Duress -> FOW: Aggro

Bounce/Answers
The next step to sideboarding is to figure out the correct bounce/answers.

Jar -> Angel: Combo, Oath
Meditate, Rotation -> 2 Naturalize: Workshop, Oath
Rebuild -> COV: Control, Aggro
Crypt, Tinker, Jar -> COV, Recall, Rebuild: Workshop

[Moxlotus]

In your last post you forgot that FoW isn't only good against combo-it is good against WS when they attempt to cast turn 1 trinisphere before you even have a turn.  That is why I think FoW is better.  Xantid>control.  FoW>combo and Workshop.

[ump]

In your last post you forgot that FoW isn't only good against combo-it is good against WS when they attempt to cast turn 1 trinisphere before you even have a turn. That is why I think FoW is better. Xantid>control. FoW>combo and Workshop.

Force of Will is in against combo and Workshop.  Against combo, you have FOW and Duress.  Against Workshops, you have FOW and Blasts (assuming Welders).

[Edit]Acutally, lately I have been thinking keeping Duress in if I am going first and FOW if I am going second.

[Nehptis]

A mini-tourney and mini-report to highlight some of the SB options and play options TOA Combo has.  9 Proxy, 20 person tourney.

Rd 1: Mirror match
Game 1: Lose, His disruption (Duress) came out, mine didn't
Game 2: Win, In -> 2 Cranial Extractions, 1 DSC, 2 Stifle.  DSC wins despite being CE for my TOA.
Game 3: Win, my disruption (Duress) came out, his didn't.
1-0

Rd 2: Oath
Game 1: Win, I get out Orchard first keeps Oath at bay.  I disrupt counters and combo-out.
Game 2: Win, In -> DSC, 2 Defense Grid.  Slip Grid in between counters.  Combo out.
2-0

Rd 3: Landstill
Game 1: Lose, too many counters.
Game 2: Win, In -> DSC, 2 Defense Grid. Slow play him, disrupt Counters with Duress, get Grid in play, combo out with Bargain.
Game 3: Win, Same as Game 2, except no Grid in play.
3-0

T8: Mirror Match
Game 1: Win, my disruption (Duress) came out, his didn't
Game 2:  Win, In -> 2 Cranial Extractions, 1 DSC, 2 Stifle. Turn 2 combo.

Semis: Ravager / Clamp
Game 1: Win, Turn 3 combo
Game 2: Win, In-> 2 H Recall, turn 2 combo

Finals: Workshop/ Combo Hate (Main Decked Key cards; 3Sphere, Sphere of Resistance, COV, Jesters Cap?!, Trisks, P Angel)
Game 1: Win, I’m able to fight through the hate with Rebuild and Combo out with Bargain.
Game 2: Lose, In -> DSC, 2 H Recall, 2 Brain Freeze.  Early 3Sphere, couldn’t get enough Mana to bounce it.
Game 3: Win, 1st turn, Brain Freeze for 15 (45 cards).  Couldn’t get the TOA in hand. He then gets a 3Sphere in play and a P Angel.  I do nothing, for a turn or 2 and then Tinker out a DSC. I have in hand 1 card (Rebuild) and draw a DT.  I’m at 12 or so life.  I attack.  He’s at 9 life with an Angel in play and less than 10 cards in his library.  I DT for H Recall and pass.  He adds a COV = 3 (saw me play Rebuild in (Game 1 and 2) and a Sphere of Resistance to the 3Sphere and Angel and attacks to put me at 8.  I thank myself for DT-ing for the H Recall and not for the Y Will.  I attack putting him at negative life.  Then I play the H Recall to bounce his Angel and Artifacts for the win.  He was expecting the Rebuild and yelled “counterâ€?.  But then saw his mistake.  Small tourney. But, good games by all players.

I want to highlight the following:

Main Deck: Balance: IMO it just wins games for TOA combo.

SB: Defense Grid > Xantid Swarm.  Losing the Swarms allowed me to cut Green entirely.  I saw no point in just keeping Crop Rotation.  Also, not having Swarms makes Balance even more powerful.  Since I experienced in a previous tourney that allowing my opponents to keep 1 creature would most often be difficult for me to overcome (i.e. against Oath).  The Grids are easy to get out (low CC and Colorless) and the +3 mana for Counters is all the edge TOA needs.

SB: Cranial Ext: As many are finding out it just wins games or gives you a huge edge.

Main Deck: 1 Chain of Vapor, 1 Rebuild: All I need for game 1 protection.

SB: 2 H Recall: 4 Bounce spells is all I need against the hate.

SB: 2 Stifle: A nice edge against the Mirror match.

SB: DSC / 2 Brain Freeze: Excellent alternative win strategies vs. the increasing amount of Cranials and against Control.

Main Deck: F Orchard:  I’m only running one and it made a difference against Oath.  If Oath decks begin to increase in number then I may increase the F. Orchards to 3.

Duress vs FOW:  I find that Duress is all I need even against Workshop hate.  TOA can win against 1st turn Hate even without FOW.  Losing blue cards to the FOW just hurts this deck too much.  And the slow play of the TPS build doesn’t give me the win results that the non-TPS-TOA build does.

[BigMac]

I am new here but not new to the format. I have been playing tendrils combo for over a year now trying out very different builds. I also have been following the various debates about the best Tendrils build. I want to add several thoughts about that.

First of all i want to say that the best build is the one the player that plays it feels good about. Having said that there are off course a couple of card choices that are made with the deck in mind and the strategy in  mind. Playing TPS i once got the observing comment of a friend of mine that i played it very controlling. That is true.
So how can you play a combo deck controlling. The first thing is making sure your draw engine is better than the one your opponent is playing. If you manage that counterdecks become far less threatening to you as they need to counter to many threats.
Stax is a problem but with hurkyl's recall and rebuild and chain of vapor you should be able to get around that problem. The key to do this is keep calm and not be afraid to cast a mox or 2 early on as your stormcount will be high enough anyway when you play it right. So Trinisphere will somewhat hinder him as well and that could give you just enough time to get your deck going.

Now on some cardchoices.
Thirst for knowledge: I can be mistaken but i have not seen this card anywhere. My first build had meditate but with the arrival of this card meditate was cut for this one.
Frantic Search: Another instant speed card with the power to plow deeper into you deck. As an added bonus you can do it all again when drawing another drawengine card. When you play it in you own turn to opt the storm count you have as an added bonus that your academy can be untapped again.
Demonic consult: I will not play this card. It can random win you games. I agree on that, but the only time i would play it would be when losing, otherwise it would be a dead card in my hand because it could as easily lose the game while i could normally play and win. It just is to random.
Xantic swarm: Another card i would choose not to run because of the deadness in your hand when you allready have one on the board. The only turn i would like to have one would be turn 1 and a turn 1 duress is way better. And to run both would just take up to much space.
Wheel of fortune: My original deck ran a wheel and a burning wish for red and some REB in the sideboard as well as some rack and ruin. To give your opponent 7 new cards just is to bad a play as he could draw disruption you so painstakenly avoided so far. The loss of the other red cards can be dealt with easilly.
Timetwister: This draw 7 i do play for the simple reason it will empty your opponents graveyard as well disrupting welder decks. It comes in handy when your opponent has a recurring (CoW) stripmine in the graveyard as well.
4 Brainstorm: duh
4 Duress: duh
Force of Will: In the long run i chose to cut them. Pitching blue cards most of the times was bad for me as most blue cards actually help you with the combo and you dont want to pitch those. I started out with them and although they are undisputably good in my oppinion they do not have enough synergy with my deck.
Chain of vapor: I will main deck those 1 or 2. Probably 1. This card has besides the possiblity to get rid of artifacts the ability to get rid of enchantments. It can also disrupt dragon. The synergy with the deck is that you pretty much can send your own artifacts back at the expense of your own lands as well, giving you the chance to make some free mana and opt the storm count.
Hurkyl's recall and rebuild: both are disruption that also has synergy with the deck.
Time Walk: in my oppinion a must as it can give you an early headstart or give you the win necro turn.
Necropotence: duh
Yawgmoth's bargain: duh
Yawgmoth's will: duh
Ancestral recall: duh
Tinker: duh
Memory jar: this is a debatable duh, but still a good draw card

With the 4 rituals, the 5 moxen, the black lotus, the lotus petal, mana crypt, sol ring and mana vault you have more than enough artifacts to pitch to thirst. The rest of my manabase mostly contains of 3 to 4 fetchlands and 4 to 7 duals. I also tend to have 3-5 basics in there.

The land choices depend on the fact if i splash a third colour. I experimented with white adding some seal of cleansing, orim's chant and abeyance. Specially the two last have very good synergy with your deckobjective.

Concluding you got 14 drawconditions of which 10 are at instant speed. The other 4 are timetwister, necro, bargain and jar. So not the bad ones. Key is to play a carddraw at the end of opponent forcing him to counter and getting necro or bargain out in your next turn. With the dark rituals and the tutors you play (demonic and vampiric, and possibly the enlightened when splashing white) you could pretty much get your main wincondition in play fast and unhindered. Duress can be key as well in getting this done.

All in all my deck could be almost build with this article. Main reason i wrote it was the absence of Thirst everywhere. That definately could be a good card in this deck.

It won me 2 major tournaments (80+ and 60+), getting me another minor one and except on 2 occasions always made top 8 with it.

But in the end it is not the deck that wins, it is and always will be the player that wins.

[jshields]

i believe that Forsythe was the person that started this, but the first place I saw a tendrils deck that looked surprisingly versatile was looking at morphling.de 's recent winning decks at europe.  among them was a deck that combined the power of oath control with the combo of tendrils.  upon playing the deck myself and with some tweaking, i got rather satisfying results.  although i have yet to go against an oath mirror match, the results have been rather well against slaver decks, workshop decks, anything that relies mostly on creatures, as well as the few control decks i have played.  i already know that this deck is in a separate topic on this forum, but it plays as just as well, if not better than the other tendrils decks that I have tested from the standard deck lists and primers.


~~~Oath of Tendrils 2.0~~~

~~~~~Mana
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Polluted Delta
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 City of Brass
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl

~~~~Draw and Search
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll (Will likely switch for Lim D'ul's Vault)
2 Cunning Wish
2 Intuition
1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoth's Will

~~~~Combo Toolbox
4 Oath of Druids
3 Eternal Witness

~~~~Tendrils (as promised for the deck)
1 Tendrils of Agony

~~~~Removal
3 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
1 Rebuild


@@@@@@@Sideboard
~~Typical Oath deck switch from combo oath~~
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Phantom Nishoba
1 Gaea's Blessing

~~Unwishable but good Tools~~
1 Damping Matrix
1 Sacred Ground

~~Wishable Tools~~
1 Coffin Purge
1 Brain Freeze
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Oxidize
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Naturalize
1 Stifle
1 Swords to Plowshares