[Card Discussion] Copy Artifact

[serracollector]

As the topic reads, I want to discuss the advantages/disadvantages of a card that I recently saw in my binder and though "Why is this not played?"  For those of you who do not know what this is:

Copy Artifact
1U
Enchantment
Copy Artifact comes into play as a copy of target artifact. It's still an enchantment.

Now, I am just going to be blunt, why should this not be played?  

Advantages:
Can copy Crucible/Titan/Pentavus/Collosus/Mana Producers/Duplicant/Platinum/Triskelion

Can be pitched to Force of Will

Can not only double your artifacts, but can copy opponents as well.

Is BLUE

Is 2 mana

Now I need to double check on the FAQ, or someone here can do it for me, bit I also believe it can be welded(?)/Tinkered(?)

Disadvatages:

Not good vs Tog/Fish as they have nothing to copy.

Useless if you have no artifacts worth copying.

Dies to energy flux, R&R, Oxidize, and Tranquility (sorry had to throw that in)

So pretty much though, if your playing any deck thats has any of the artifacts I mentioned, or are playing a deck which runs those artifacts, and running blue, then why is this not played?  It could be great even as just a side board card, like if your playing Stax variants and the drop a first turn Crucible, and you just Copy it.  Or against the Oath decks that might reimerge, with Colossus, just simply copy him (yes I know theres StP/Duplicant/Giulded Drake also, this is just another option that has more vaiblity in my opinion).  Anyway, without much more ado, pls discuss.  Thank you.

Serracollector

[M.Solymossy]

Copy artifact = bad.

I side seasinger in my controlslaver build.  i casted angel, he copy artifact it, i played seasinger, he played a grim lavamancer, which i forced, and proceeded to steal his copied angel....  

haha only thing i could say bad against it...

This post is so pointless, please... try harder -leviat

[PipOC]

When the metagame irons out I can see this as finding a place in some deck SBs, primarily fish as they just can't deal with 11/11 tramplers on turn 3 without some help.  There are also some decks that could use it proactively such as slaver and titan variants. And as for your question, it can be welded out of play since it is a copy of an artifact which makes it an artifact, but it can't be welded into play.  In welder decks though you generally want weldable artifacts so sculpting steel might turn out better

Sculpting Steel 3
Artifact
As Sculpting Steel comes into play, you may choose an artifact in play. If you do, Sculpting Steel comes into play as a copy of that artifact.

[serialjester]

Sculpting Steel is better, even with the pitch to FoWness that Copy Artifact has. Sculpting Steel can't be ReB'd, comes down off a Workshop, can be Tinkered for if necessary (not exactly optimal but it is an option) and it isn't affected by enchantment hate (minimal, but still a decreased weakness compared to Copy).

I've always liked Copy, and I really like Sculpting Steel. In a Workshop deck it gives you extra copies of anything you're playing, which can come at a reduced cost, copying something like Crusher, Jug, Trisk, Duplicant, Angel, Titan, DSC. It also for a very cheap price answers your opponents' fast artifact bombs. 1st turn Tinker Colossus looks great for your opponent until you go Workshop Sculpting Steel the Colossus.

It's definitely has alot of potential, moreso than the Copy, even with it being cheaper than Sculpting Steel. With the coloured mana requirements, I'd almost consider Sculpting Steel the cheaper of the 2. Basically I think that any deck that would consider Copy would be better off running Sculpting Steel.

[Hi-Val]

I like this card. It suffers from the same problem as enchant creatures do, but in certain decks it looks really nifty.

[illuzion]

One advantage I can think of with Copy Artifact is its flexibility, in that, it is an enchantment, giving you the ability to manipulate it as such with something like Skull of Orm.  Unfortunately, Skull of Orm is the best example I can think of so, as it stands... not a spectacular card.  But, who knows?  Maybe someday WotC will print something that makes Copy Artifact the shit.

[Sammy]

Maybe someday WotC will print something that makes Copy Artifact the shit.

Like Sundering Titan, Collosus, Crucible (gets you out of lock), Juggernaut, Razormane Masticore, Trike, ...list = go on and on (not really but thats ok)

[M.Solymossy]

alright i'm going to attempt to be intelligent for one post here... so here goes


first, lets look at the pros and the cons of Copy Artifact

pros in no order

1) it's cheap
it's casting cost makes it pretty effective.  for U1, you can copy any artifact in play,be it yours or theirs.
2) It can pitch to Force of Will
who doesn't like that?
3) IRON GIANT
lets face it, the Iron Giant win's games.  What deck run's blue that autoloss versus a giant? fish/mono-U.   Copy Artifact gives them their own iron giant to swing away with.  [/b]

Cons in no order
1) welder
you could copy an artifact in order to weld something better into play, but at the same, your opponent could use that against you with thier own welders
2) it's blue
this is both a pro and a con.   If you're not running Blue you can't use it, obviously
3) enchantment
once it's out... it's gunna be hard to get back in

flat out, it's weak towards artifact hate, enchantment hate, and even creature hate (if you chose to copy a critter)


what are the top 5 things to copy?

~ Iron Giant
~ Sundering Titan
~ MindSlaver (if opponent has one, it kills it since the new cok rule)
~ Platinum Angel
~ Crucible

Lets face it, if you're that worried about artifacts, it's one of those 5.  I don't know one person who would waste their time copying a mox, and a illusionary mask is pointless to copy.  crucible wins games, as do the others.   obvious way to fight a giant, titan, or an angel is with the same thing.   and slaver... everyone's experienced a slaver at least once.

[serracollector]

OK, so is it a rule now that when Serracollector makes a post in the Vintage Open forum that it must immediately get moved to the Newbie Forum?  I have played Magic since 94.  I have won 2 t1 tournaments and made t8 in many others, which others here on TMD can attest to.  I know (or at least think I do) what is good and bad in the current meta and sometimes I come up with good ideas and bad ideas.  Yet for the last couple of months, every damn thing I post has immediatly been moved to the newbie forum, wtf.  I am sorry I am not steve menedian and got half of the restricted list put there, or I am not Azhrei or some other mathematician who does the exact chances of drawing cards over others. I am not a percentage player, I am not a guy who trys to break every card in the formats I play, I simply like to make suggestions or ideas on decks that do well or cards that could do well.  Unfortunately no one who might actually use these decks, test them, or could give me constructive suggestions ever sees the posts cause they are moved to the newbie forum as soon as a forum operator sees my name.  It is profiling and it is dumb and it is bullshit.  You guys make magic suck for us who still play for fun and come up with ideas that don't win on turn 1 or require $4000 to play.  Vintage is the most broken format, but there are many cards that were never considered broken until someone actually looked at them, i.e. balance, necropotence, tinker, crop rotation, lions eye diamond.  All crappy ass cards in their own right, but Godly cause someone made them that way, not because someone posted the idea and some moderator said "Well I think that is stupid" and moved it to a newbie forum, locked it, or simply deleted it cause it did not meet their fancy.  I do not care if you lock this, or delete it or give me a warning or kick me off TMD, cause I am done trying with you guys.  This is complete and udder BS.

Serracollector

[Fominian]

<snip>

*Waves* Sorry you feel that way, though your concept in theory was sound, overall I found this arguement lacking, as you never really argued your point just gave pros and cons...

I believe it would have done better if you gave an arguement backed up with hard evidance on top of your list of p/cs

But in the end what do I know  

[illuzion]

Maybe someday WotC will print something that makes Copy Artifact the shit.

Like Sundering Titan, Collosus, Crucible (gets you out of lock), Juggernaut, Razormane Masticore, Trike, ...list = go on and on (not really but thats ok)

Why would I want to copy Sundering Titan? To nuke more of my lands??

If you want to get out of a Crucible lock or block and get rid of Juggy, Razormane or Trike, why settle for just getting rid of them?  Cards like Rack and Ruin, Artifact Mutation and Shattering Pulse do the same thing, only far more efficiently, by giving you card advantage or better board position.

I have won 2 t1 tournaments and made t8 in many others

I've won plenty of tourneys and I rarely fail to top 8, but that doesn't mean I'm that good.  I know this is a bit off-topic and I don't mean to feed the flame war, but I couldn't resist pointing out the logical fallacy.

[PipOC]

Why would I want to copy Sundering Titan? To nuke more of my lands??

If you want to get out of a Crucible lock or block and get rid of Juggy, Razormane or Trike, why settle for just getting rid of them?  Cards like Rack and Ruin, Artifact Mutation and Shattering Pulse do the same thing, only far more efficiently, by giving you card advantage or better board position.

You copy titan because he's fat, last I hear 7/10 is pretty big

Because if you use copy u can also use it proactively, like copying your own colossus, or getting another of any of those

[illuzion]

Why would I want to copy Sundering Titan? To nuke more of my lands??

If you want to get out of a Crucible lock or block and get rid of Juggy, Razormane or Trike, why settle for just getting rid of them?  Cards like Rack and Ruin, Artifact Mutation and Shattering Pulse do the same thing, only far more efficiently, by giving you card advantage or better board position.

You copy titan because he's fat, last I hear 7/10 is pretty big

Let me make this a little more clear for you:

Let's assume you have a Titan in play and I copy it.  End result is, you have a Titan and I have a Titan, and I suffer Titan's CIP effect twice.  Board position: Likely worse than when I started!

Now, same thing, only instead of copying your Titan, I mutate it.  End result is, you do not have Titan, I get 8 saps.  Board position: Considerably better.

Because if you use copy u can also use it proactively, like copying your own colossus, or getting another of any of those

So you advocate using it as a win more card? You do realize this is unnecessary use, right?

---Edited out cheap shot---

[Luskan]

I think the reason why both Copy Artifact and Sculpting Steel aren't played much is that they're conditional on another good artifact is in play already, and there are better answers available for the cards you would want to use them on.

One example listed was a fish deck copying Darksteel Colossus.  Sounds great, but the problem is your opponent still has the Darksteel on his side of the board.  But Fish has Sigil of Sleep, which for one blue mana you can put on a flyer or a mancer and just return it to his hand (or any other creature he plops down).  Using it as a creature stall just doesn't seem productive to me.

So that means using it to duplicate non-creature artifacts.  Well, you wouldn't use it to duplicate Moxes (that just gives your opponent a free time walk that YOU paid for).  You could use it to duplicate gilded lotus, giving you lotus 6 through 9, but what deck needs that kind of mana?  Duplicating things like your own creatures seems like a win-more situation to me as well.

The only thing I can picture using Sculpting Steel for, would be for a welder deck.  Have it in your graveyard, and weld it in when your opponent plays his legendary artifact (causing both artifacts to be buried under the new legends rule).  Again, that seems too narrow, and there are better ways to remove his legendary artifact.

[Fominian]

Perhaps there is a language barrier here, so let me put this in terms you are more likely to understand:

Haha n00b, the artifact mutaiton pnws u!  copy artifact is the sux0rs!!!! LOLLOL!!!1!!1

See the problem with that logic is not only did you alienate most people, you come off looking arrogant and ignorrant...  *shakes head*

Back to arguement:

If one were to copy Titan the probably either have no basics in play, or have multiples of one type so using a land is not that much of a problem, though say why BBS (one of the few decks that would even concider running it) would run Copy Artifact, and why it would copy a titan is beyond me.

However, lets look at other artifacts it can copy.  DsC, Trisk, Pent are all viable options on the creature end of the spectrum - other targets are to double ones null rod, and trin, and thus making it slightly more difficult for it them to remove (in theory).  There is also the ability to copy their mana base (in some decks), and finally Memory Jar...

So in theory the card is good, however in practice I would think it would be left wanting... as it is one you use in response to - and will never do anything on its own...

[PipOC]

Let's assume you have a Titan in play and I copy it.  End result is, you have a Titan and I have a Titan, and I suffer Titan's CIP effect twice.  Board position: Likely worse than when I started!

Now, same thing, only instead of copying your Titan, I mutate it.  End result is, you do not have Titan, I get 8 saps.  Board position: Considerably better.

So you advocate using it as a win more card? You do realize this is unnecessary use, right?


Perhaps there is a language barrier here, so let me put this in terms you are more likely to understand:

Haha n00b, the artifact mutaiton pnws u!  copy artifact is the sux0rs!!!! LOLLOL!!!1!!1

Artifact Mutation is RED and GREEN copy artifact is blue.  Now I don't know if you're just color blind but there are decks that don't run both red and green. Fish usually doesn't have creatures with 3 power to opposes oncoming nauts, copy can rectify this by copying the naut and then blocking with it.  There are numerous situations where decks not running mutation can use this effectively.

I was just using colossus as an example, and perhaps that wasn't the best one.  You can copy your tangle wire, titan, pentavus, platinum angel...etc.

Did I actually say "u"?...Derf  

[leviat]

Copy Artifact is bad because it's strictly a support card. It will never win a game for you that you weren't already winning.

If you are using it to copy an opponent's artifact, in almost all cases you will find that you were better off just removing your opponent artifact instead (or preventing it from hitting play).

If you are using it to copy your own artifact, then it becomes a win more that doesn't really further your game. Most artifact these days will just plain win you the game: 7/10 only needs to hit once, Memory Jar only need to hit once, Crucible in multiples is useless.

You follow?

[M.Solymossy]

also people arn't realizing the titan thing.

you copy your own titan because he's more fat, and he kills your opponents land.

you'd copy their titan because you're most likely screwed anyways, and last i heard blocking a 7/10 with a 7/10 is a pretty smart move...  what else (that's playable) can block a tit and live?  Colossus.

I don't know about you guys but i would sure as hell try to copy that seven-ten if he was commin' at me.   once that gedon-on-a-stick hits the board, i'd be pretty screwed anyways.

titan is good because most decks lose to either it or blood moon, because you either run a lot of non-basics or a lot of basics.   last i checked, mono-brown, smemmen blue, and rogue variations of fish and oshwa were the only things not running multiple colors.  

4cc is dead because a resolved titan = armageddon on a 3 turn clock.

----
also to leviat... good points, but in my titancontrol deck i definitely like seeing two titans.

I have NO problem going to zero lands, having an active welder in play, a 7/10 in play, and a 7/10 in the grave.  that pretty much secures me the game in a softlock of lands.   If i'm at zero lands, then they're at zero lands.  last i checked, when both players have zero lands but one has a big creature in play, the other player loses.

please don't take that as an insult or anything Leviat as it's not intended to be insulting... just giving an oppinion on having two tits in play.



just remember boys... it's NEVER a bad thing to be playing with 2 tits

[Moxlotus]

also people arn't realizing the titan thing.

you copy your own titan because he's more fat, and he kills your opponents land.

you'd copy their titan because you're most likely screwed anyways, and last i heard blocking a 7/10 with a 7/10 is a pretty smart move...  what else (that's playable) can block a tit and live?  Colossus.

I don't know about you guys but i would sure as hell try to copy that seven-ten if he was commin' at me.   once that gedon-on-a-stick hits the board, i'd be pretty screwed anyways.

titan is good because most decks lose to either it or blood moon, because you either run a lot of non-basics or a lot of basics.   last i checked, mono-brown, smemmen blue, and rogue variations of fish and oshwa were the only things not running multiple colors.  

4cc is dead because a resolved titan = armageddon on a 3 turn clock.

----
also to leviat... good points, but in my titancontrol deck i definitely like seeing two titans.

I have NO problem going to zero lands, having an active welder in play, a 7/10 in play, and a 7/10 in the grave.  that pretty much secures me the game in a softlock of lands.   If i'm at zero lands, then they're at zero lands.  last i checked, when both players have zero lands but one has a big creature in play, the other player loses.

please don't take that as an insult or anything Leviat as it's not intended to be insulting... just giving an oppinion on having two tits in play.



just remember boys... it's NEVER a bad thing to be playing with 2 tits

Your copied Titan won't kill any of their lands except maybe 1 because they won't have lands you can kill.  They will be Workshops or you may kill 1 island or something.  Also you will have a hard time casting your copy.  And third-a Hurkyl's Recall would even be better in this situation because you don't nuke your own lands.  Bouncing creature to never be played again>having a wall to get hit with opponent's welder.

Also, going off about a topic being moved definitely looks mature and further enforces your position that you believe you have made a rational, logical argument (aka-a good post) that deserves to be in the Open Forum.  Especially because untested ideas or ideas that need further developing and are mostly brainstorming BELONG in the Newbie forum.

[M.Solymossy]

Also, going off about a topic being moved definitely looks mature and further enforces your position that you believe you have made a rational, logical argument (aka-a good post) that deserves to be in the Open Forum. Especially because untested ideas or ideas that need further developing and are mostly brainstorming BELONG in the Newbie forum.

i hope that wasn't about me.


and also... i have seen a lot of deck's running titan now... not only workshop, but drain version's too.   You can run basic's and still run the titan, if you're only losing 1, if any lands... it's still a good beatstick.

[Binary]

Consider this:

For decks that can "proactively" use this card (i.e. to copy one of its own artifacts) Sculpting Steel is almost always a better choice:

Can be played off Workshop
Can be Welded in and out (Copy Artifact cannot be welded in)
Immune to REB[/list:u]

And how many people are actually playing Sculpting Steel in Type 1? Not many last time I checked.

Using this card "reactively" is even worse. 99% of the time if you're copying a non-creature artifact you'd be better off just destroying theirs instead... and if you're using this to copy their artifact creature, why not just spend the extra U1 for Control Magic to steal it instead?

[CoBra]

Consider this:
For decks that can "proactively" use this card (i.e. to copy one of its own artifacts) Sculpting Steel is almost always a better choice:

Immune to REB[/list:u]

I just want to point that according to this:

The copy of the artifact is not still blue. It copies the color of the thing it is copying. [Duelist Magazine #14, Page 26]

Copy Artifact is Blue just as long as it's on the stack, not while it's in play, so REB is pretty useless once Copy Artifact resolves.
Anyway, let's face wich decks will use this rather than Sculpting Steel: primarly Fish and MonoU. Since MonoU isn't played here in Italy, i'm gonna talk about Fish and leaving it to people who knows that deck better than me.
Fish, at least here, is starting to use CoW on its own, due to the perfect sinergy it has with Manlands and WaStrips, and to flank opponent's ones; so, since Titan doesn't tramples, Fish can block it with creatures and play needed, lost lands, or just go on playing the same Factory over and over to block it.
Against Colossus, the deck can usually pack some bouncers, (Since it's usually played via Tinker, it won't get back till a resolved Regrowth Effect for Tinker, being it Yaw's Will, a lucky TimeTwister or whatever), that can be useful in a wider range of matchups.
So, in conclusion, Copy Artifact is not a bad card. But since thera are more useful cards that are less narrowed, is it worth a change in the SB (Wich slots are never enough)?