Metagame Shifts: Debating the Future of Fish

[Xman]

FIsh may be dying out of numerous metagames, but it is still around in force in some metas.  However, It is not a big deal in most of those metas.

Fish was the number one budget deck recently, and though it did well, I think the popularity of the deck is waning.  I believe the deck will continue to make small appearances (like Hulk did) and it will keep making smaller and smaller shwoings, nto placing well anymore.  Decks like Tog will come back, and then decks like Fish and others that hated Tog will come back.  It is a vicious cycle, and I do not believe we can get rid of Fish completely.  I do believe, it is a tier 2 or tier 3 deck now, and will stay there until decks that it worked well against come back in force (like Tog).

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Fish has been on the downswing for a while now with the rise of mono-U and 5/3.  The upsurge of oath is basically the final nail in the coffin.  Untill the decks that it just plain loses to diminish/disappear it simply won't be viable anymore.  I think that that's the final verdict.  

(Whether or not it remains viable in some metas is moot.  I'm sure WW is still viable in some metas.  The Vintage meta we talk about is defined by large tournements such as SCG and Gencon)

[Raven Fire]

I could imagine that it will be something mono-u with firewalker replacing lavamancer or smt like that.

Just like its called in the newer age -> "Back 2 the roots"

The idea of going back to the fish roots of the deck opens up some interesting possibilities (although probably not all that viable in a well balanced meta; I'm mainly thinking about budget players who are essentially locked into Fish builds and know that they will be facing a lot of Oath, mono-blue, and 4cc).  Rootwater Thief would certainly cause problems for Oath and mono-blue if it could get a couple swings in and Lord of Atlantis could make some of your critters unblockable by their monsterous fat (and give a bit of pump) to enable a finishing attack.  Going back to old school mono-blue Gay Fish would certainly improve the mana base if nothing else.

[SpencerForHire]

Going back to the MonoU roots.  What an interesting idea.  Taking fish back to where it started.  Sure it had to morph before to improve alot of matches.  But if you look at fish in all it's morphing, it just got more and more complex.  Running back to the basic design and then going from their might be the next step of evolution for it as it were.  Sure it means you have to take a few steps back but if that means taking twice as many steps forward I think it would be worth the time.

[moses2k]

just some ideas:

MD Deep Analysis, sponsored by waterfront bouncers against the bad matchups -> 5/3,oath

I also think the mono-u version would have some better matchup against control.

You have a solid manabase and fast "big" threats..

You would be faster than gay/r..

On the other side, with cutting red you lose cheap answers like lavamancer.

Thoughts anyone?

[MIZEnhauer]

You can replace lavamancer with old man of the sea or suq ata firewalker.  This frees up a spot for a 1 drop either a merfolk or flying men.

[Negator]

What do you think of a build that takes away Null Rod and Curiosity for Mask of Memory, Skullclamp and Goblin Vandal?

1 Library of Alexandria
1 Polluted Delta
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
-23 (no Voidmage Prodigy)-

4 Goblin Vandal
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Grim Lavamancer
-16-

2 Mask of Memory
4 Skullclamp
4 Standstill
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestral Recall
2 *Blue Spell for FoW*
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Time Walk
-21-

Null Rod isn't THE CARD tech against Stax and Drain Slaver, conversely, Goblin Vandal is good.

Thougths?

Edit: -2 Mask of Memory, + 2 Blue Spell.

[MIZEnhauer]

maybe fish should play sigil of sleep over null rod.  That would help the matchup vs. Oath

[Negator]

Sigil of Sleep against Akroma?  

[MIZEnhauer]

put sigil of sleep on a lavamancer or if that does'nt suit you play waterfront bouncer

[NCM]

@ the Mono-Blue Fish idea - I agree that over the years Fish has gotten more and more complex, but in a time where Workshop Aggro is king and Control Slaver is the evil archbishop who's really running the show, is it really that good of an idea to go back to a deck who had a repulsive aggro matchup?  However, I do like the idea of Deep Anal in Fish.

@ the Skullclamp idea - No.  Fish actually needs its creatures for stuff (pinging, chump blocking, swinging, etc.) and it already has a good draw engine.  Mask of memory is kind of nice, but it costs 3 to play and equip on the same turn and with all the artifact hate going around it'll be easier to kill than Curiosity (at least until people start boarding in hate for Oath).

@ the Sigil/Bouncer idea - I like the idea of MD Sigil, but I'm still reluctant to cutting Null Rod.  Maybe I'm just sentimental, but Null Rod's ability to kill all moxen in one fell swoop is much more efficient than paying   + + + ... with Mox Monkey.  Null Rod also shuts down Workshop Slaver (btw, is anyone still playing Workshop Slaver?) and gives you a brief tempo advantage against Control Slaver until they Cunning Wish into Mogg Salvage.  Waterfront Bouncer could also work, but in this case, I believe Sigil would be better.[/i]

[MrZuccinniHead]

I have been testing Mono-u fish a lot lately, and i have to say that I think it's the way to go.  Here's the list:

Manas:
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Polluted Delta
8 Island
1 Mox Sapphire

Fishes:
3 Old Man of the Sea
3 Rootwater Thief
3 Lord of Atlantis
4 Sandbar Merfolk

Utility:
1 Misdirection
2 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Time Walk

Draw:
3 Curiosity
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm

//  Sideboard:
SB:  3 Energy Flux
SB:  2 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  4 Null Rod
SB:  3 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  3 Control Magic

Took out the null rod in favor of more draw power and it works.  I'm going to try some deep analysis next to see how that works.

[MSR9889]

not many of u kno me, but i feel that fish is still a competitive dek, it just needs the right modifications. my friend and i were experimenting with bruised fish, which im sure most of u hav thought of as a varient. we r trying dauthi warlord for black fish(shadow in T1?), but the dek is really good. we run edicts for those that we cannot target. its the card that is most forgotten in todays meta-game any where, in my opinion. what in U/R fish kills a colosus off a turn 1 tinker. what can kill akroma and other large and in the way creatures aka SOTN, sundering titan. u get my point. my point is that this dek can get around what deks r in the current meta-game. null rod, stifle, whatever thats b/u u can add as a threat. check the dek list out at www.nemesis9521.tripod.com.

when u get to the site, enter nemesis9521 in the search bar at the top

[NCM]

@ Mr. ZucciniHead - Wow.  I've heard of taking Fish back to its Mono-Blue roots, but RUNNING FISH IN FISH (OMGOMGOMG)...that's old school.  I would give you major props, but I would like to see some matchup analyses first.

@ MSR9889 - Welcome to TMD!  The Edit button is your friend!  Do you think your friend could post some matchup results on UB Fish?[EDIT]And double posting is deeply frowned upon.  (I'll stop being the thread police now)[/EDIT]

[SamTheHam]

Hey, this thread is frigging awesome!  All the talk of fish reminds me of my childhood.  We grew up poor, Daddy was a longshoreman, working on the docks for an honest days pay.  Momma was dead.

Here is a new idea that has been discussed but never actualized.  It's WtWTF (Worse than Worse than Fish...) It runs the Gay/r skeleton, but instead of adding green it adds white for main deck Swords to Plowshares and Meddling mage.  The mages are so good right now.  I know, they can't be Curious, but in the current meda of Oath and Goblin Welders, there are so many spells that have to be played to win. Name tinker or Oath of Druids, anything that is big at the moment.  STP is your new friend for HUGE FREAKING ARTIFACT MEN AKA THE BAIN OF FISH!  It kills Colossi, Sundering Titans, Akroma's, Spirits of the Nights and Welders deader than Rick James (...too soon?) BITCH!

I placed in a decent tourney this past Saturday the 30.  All established decks and good players. There were 5 Oath decks, one in the T8.  I made the T8 and conceided to my buddy the Belcher player, mostly because I have no game against that Oath player that was in the future.  Here's the list.  I will post a tourney report later around here.  Please give some input, mostly on a better sideboard.  

FISH 4 LIFE - unless your Rick James, becuase you're dead...BITCH

[SamTheHam]

I posted the deck list in the Italian Gay guy's thread on accident.  Here it is.  Please don't shit over the double post.  It was a mistake. ( or was it.... MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!)



... No, it definetly was a mistake, just like my daughter.

Eighth Place: Sam Tallent (SamTheHam on TMD) playing W!WTF
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Meddling Mage
4 Cloud Of faeries
1 Gorilla Shaman
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Sowrds to plowshares
4 Standstill
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Null Rod
4 Force of will
2 Daze
1 Stifle
4 Curiosity

SB:
1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Hydroblast
1 BEB
3 Pyroblast
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Disenchant
2 Fire/Ice
1 Stifle

Sorry again.

[MrZuccinniHead]

i tried that for a while...I called my r/w/b fish deck "The Patriot".  After a while, i noticed that meddling mage isn't a very good creature.

[moses2k]

For anyone who doesn't know yet..

Gay/r took first @ yesterdays moers..
It was a very bad and random list, unpowered, containing 2 mana leaks,2 counterspells wtf?



There were 39 Players and fish went undefeated.

The T8 was something like

1. Fish(5-0-1)
2. MeanOath(5-1)
all other 4-1-1
3. DeathLong
4. Stax
5. Random suxx Oath
6-8. another stax, reanimator and smt else...

Imo, if a bad player with a bad version of the deck(NO matter HOW lucky he was) doesn't lose to one of the decks(he played against the meanoath and the long)and wins the tournament, doesn't that tell us something about the strength of the archetype?

Olli will up the decklists soon..

I don't know if we should just call it "random" "ultra" luck..

[Moxlotus]

Or it could be a combination of blind luck on his part, horrible luck on opponent's part, and lack of  skill on opponent's part.

[AggressiveDude]

Why would Mono Blue Fish be better than Gay/r against Control without REB and Lavamancers ?

My Advice to all of you is just to wait.
Either someone like PTW will come up with a new fish build or Tog and Co will come back which seems to be quite likely.

[jpmeyer]

How are cards like Control Magic, Unsummon, etc. supposed to stop a Pristine Angel?  And how are you supposed to race Pristine Angel when it can block your guys?

Changing a card or two in your sideboard isn't going to help.  You're going to need a massive overhaul in deck construction.

[MrZuccinniHead]

because islandwalk > flying right now.

Also, I changed to 4x Manta Riders...I dunno why the hell I put Sandbar Merfolk.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Lavamancer the creature card that makes fish viable.  Take it away and you have crap.  It's removal, a beater, and board advantage all in one.   INSANE POWERHOUSE.  With all of the welders running around you certainly don't want to get rid of him.  REB isn't the bomb it used to be, but you CANNOT cut red, simply because of the insane lavaman.  Welder and aggro matchups become unwinnable.  You just make the deck worse and don't solve anything but the mono-U matchup (and B2B shutting down u man lands and wastes will still hurt alot anyways).

[MrZuccinniHead]

i think getting a more stable mana base is worth not having the mancer, reb,  etc.  There's just too much going on right now that begs you to not run a bunch of colors.  Old man can do the job of lavamancer to an extent.  It will even let you do welder tricks against the opponent once you take control.  The old man is all like, "Hey there muscly arm!"

You may argue that mancer can come down 2 turns earlier, but it requires no investment in it's cost after it's in play.  Often times when I played gay/r i lost with a mancer in play simply because they wasted my only volcanic island.  Also, shouldn't you counter the first threat anyway?  Counter the first welder and then make sure the next one is covered with an old man during your next turn or another counter + strip effect.

I personally MD 3x Old Man and they are useful in match-ups such as other fish or the numerous welder decks.  Just today I was doing well against the crucislaver.dec.  I went 3-1.  The last game he beat me with one turn to live and he casted intuition with a welder active and i had no answer.  But the other games were decided with Old Man (Game one was actually me playing the mana denial role + standstills, but 2 and 3 were old man ownage + counters).  The guy I played is on this site actually.  He can attest to this match-up.  I had other match-ups I have tested, but I don't remember them as well because I just did that game today.  I have had a very solid record playing mono-u fish.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

i think getting a more stable mana base is worth not having the mancer, reb,  etc.  There's just too much going on right now that begs you to not run a bunch of colors.  Old man can do the job of lavamancer to an extent.  It will even let you do welder tricks against the opponent once you take control.  The old man is all like, "Hey there muscly arm!"

You may argue that mancer can come down 2 turns earlier, but it requires no investment in it's cost after it's in play.  Often times when I played gay/r i lost with a mancer in play simply because they wasted my only volcanic island.  Also, shouldn't you counter the first threat anyway?  Counter the first welder and then make sure the next one is covered with an old man during your next turn or another counter + strip effect.

I personally MD 3x Old Man and they are useful in match-ups such as other fish or the numerous welder decks.  Just today I was doing well against the crucislaver.dec.  I went 3-1.  The last game he beat me with one turn to live and he casted intuition with a welder active and i had no answer.  But the other games were decided with Old Man (Game one was actually me playing the mana denial role + standstills, but 2 and 3 were old man ownage + counters).  The guy I played is on this site actually.  He can attest to this match-up.  I had other match-ups I have tested, but I don't remember them as well because I just did that game today.  I have had a very solid record playing mono-u fish.

2 colours is not what I would define as "a bunch." (Although in fact I think that WTF/r is superior, while being 3 colours, I won't go into that)

Old man may be a viable sb card in a deck like drain slaver.  The deck packs a lot of acceleration to power them out, and is a control deck.  However, they should NOT be maindeck in anything IMO.  They are not even useful in some matchups (combo, and to some extent prison).  

A non-artifact sorcery speed 3cc permemenent is a huge investment for an aggro control deck.  There is a reason the mana curve stops at 2 excepting crucibile.  3cc spells need to WIN YOU THE GAME to be good.  Crucible often does.  Old man is sometimes useless.  Also note that while crucible can be useful the turn it is cast (to replay a land if you havn't had a drop that turn), old man is not.

Mancer is re-useable, while old man is only in specific situations (you trade/ sacrifice their creature).  Not only this, but he is an excellant source of direct damage that can help to burn out large creatures like juggernaught, big platzz, etc, or simply to burn out your opponent.  The sheer power level of his ability is way above what a 1cc creature should have.

As for countering their 1st threat, although this is probably a good play if you don't have an answer in hand, it is certainly not always possible or even the correct play.  If they go 1st and plan volc, wedler, I won't fow it if I have fow, blue card, BEB, blue source in hand.  I will BEB it on mu turn and use fow backup on the BEB if necessary.  That way, if they have no fow, I save my fow for their next spell, say a Thirst, which my BEB would not effect.  1st turn mancer is a solid threat and proactively answers any welders they may have.

As for your 4 mentioned games of testing with old man, I have probably easily played over a hundred that can attest to how good mancer is, and I can even discuss in theory why he is go good.  I admit that I havn't tested old man at all, but in theory I see how good he would be in a control slavery sideboard (and results also speak for that).  I do not see why in theory he would be good in fish or even close to taking over the role of lavamaner in a mono-U verstion. (also, I havn't seen any recent results of sucessful mono-U fish decks using old man)

Can you address my earilier point of what mathups this improves other than mono-U by making you die somewhat less to B2B?

[Revvik]

Well, by going the old mono-blue route, you're not only increasing your mana stability.  Here's a few points:

Faerie Conclave is a much more acceptable "threat card" in the deck, as you won't be starving for blue mana sources.

Feeding Grim Lavamancer is no longer an issue (I have often had to waste my own lands in the late game if only to kill something lethal with grimmy).

More Blue = more pitch spells.  This makes Misdirection a much more viable card in the deck, rather than the "5th Force of Will."  

You have a one-drop creature again - Manta Riders (or Flying Men, if you prefer).

DCI Foil Lords of Atlantis are worth money again (this means something to me, at least).

Old Man of the Sea... well, at least he pitches to FOW & MisD, but unless nightmares of Welders keep you awake at night, he shouldn't be maindecked.

[MrZuccinniHead]

they always keep me up

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Well, by going the old mono-blue route, you're not only increasing your mana stability.  Here's a few points:

Faerie Conclave is a much more acceptable "threat card" in the deck, as you won't be starving for blue mana sources.

Feeding Grim Lavamancer is no longer an issue (I have often had to waste my own lands in the late game if only to kill something lethal with grimmy).

More Blue = more pitch spells.  This makes Misdirection a much more viable card in the deck, rather than the "5th Force of Will."  

You have a one-drop creature again - Manta Riders (or Flying Men, if you prefer).

DCI Foil Lords of Atlantis are worth money again (this means something to me, at least).

Old Man of the Sea... well, at least he pitches to FOW & MisD, but unless nightmares of Welders keep you awake at night, he shouldn't be maindecked.

You said you get more than mana stability, however your first point after that mentions the abundance of blue mana sources.  This seems contratdictory.

I'm not sure how the lavamancer issue applies.  The deck has alot of synergy with lavamancer and your point seems to be more about how the play style of the deck would be different rather than actual matchups improved.

Multple colour vartients have no problem running enough blue cards to support pitch spells.  Misdirection has always been very random and conditional.  Both of these points contribute to making your agrument very weak.

Having a one drop creature is not an advantage as the current builds use grim lavamancer, which would leave.  The number of one drops would remain the same, but the replacement would obviously be far reduced in power level and serve a different function.

You've got to be jokeing with this point, so I'll laugh politely.  LOL.

We're on the same page about old man not being maindecked, at least.

[Revvik]

Losing Lavamancer would be horrible, even I will admit that  

My point about mana stability in a mono blue fish build is that there is no reliance on an active Volcanic Island for red mana - basic Islands can be fitted in, which do not fold under Back to Basics, are harder to lock down under Crucible of Worlds, and create additional blue mana sources, so the comes-into-play-tapped ability of Faerie Conclave doesn't hurt as much when pulled late game.

Pros:
This increases the resilience to Back to Basics, Crucible of Worlds, etc.
This increases the blue spell count for the deck.
This increases the viability of multiple Misdirections.
Faerie Conclave as a 3-of is an efficient, evasive beater that provides another target for the opponent's already outnumbered Wastelands.

Cons:
Red is the sideboard color of Magic - you lose Red Elemental Blast, Rack & Ruin, Fire/Ice (MD or SB)
Grim Lavamancers are one of the single greatest innovations to the deck - Curiosities become nigh unstoppable, opposing weenies get mowed down, Sigil of Sleep stops becoming pure trash, etc.
Gorilla Shaman is an excellent beater/mana denial tool all in one little first-turn package.

Old-style Fish decks originally ran Lord of Atlantis.  Coupled with one-drop evasive Curiositied merfolk, a Lord of Atlantis could push 8+ damage in against a control deck in a single turn.

If a mono blue fish build can overcome the loss of Grim Lavamancer and various red goodies, then Fish not only remains an efficient budget deck, but it's back to being a winning deck again.

It remains to be seen whether this idea is a step backwards, or an evolution towards resiliency.