TPS the evolution

[Phele]

Gifts Ungiven is in this deck just better than Fact or Fiction. Believe it or not, but you should give it a try.

The red splash really is not mandatory. But I had just never problems finding the red mana and I play just the single Pyroblast in the sideboard.

Cunning Wish I have weighted for really long. It was going out of the deck many times ... and allways came back. Most of the time it works as the fifth counter spell or as draw finder and is really good in this. The added bonus of being a second win condition main is perfect.

Extract is a fine card but it does not enough against a Doomsday deck with Tendrils and Beacon of Destruction.

[Snoop]

@ViRiDian: Did you play at SCG P9 in Richmond? If so how did you end up overall. I was 5-1-2 (my one loss was a concession to let Jacob Orlove make Top 8). I was also playing a non red splash version although I did play a maindeck Cunning Wish.

As far as the Platinum Angel I strongly disagree with people saying it doesn't win. Platinum Angel games 2 and 3 is nearly invincible. Slow? Hardly it's the same speed as Darksteel Colossus and I don't see people saying that's slow. And as far as this myth that DSC still wins ... seriously guys decks have evolved and this whole "DSC smashes Fish thing" doesn't fly. The new fish decks (Phish) have Swords and Gilded Drake, not to mention it's still a solid aggro control deck. Workshop decks match your turn 1 DSC with a Welder to make short work of DSC. I think if we are going to put more TPS players in Top 8's we need to wake up to the changing metagame. I'm not advocating Platinum Angel as the win all card that Colossus was ... but if you're in a heavy combo metagame it is a perfect SB card.

[ViRidIAnLoNGBoW]

snoop: i finished 5-2 losing to workshop with seals and joe bushman with oath.  However I played workshop 4 times, and won 3 of them.  The main reason I won those matches  was ANNUL in the board.  Not only does it counter chalice, smokestack, tangle whire, ect... but it also counters things like necro, oath and bargain.  I think that the second part is commonly overlooked, and sometimes countering an opposing necro or bargain can win you the game

As for platnum, it works quite well, but most decks have little problem dealing with it.  Fish, although now its more efficient, has lavamancer, and goblins has that little cycling thing.  

also I hate gifts ungiven fact and intuition are so much better.

[Shaman]

1 Echoing Truth (as you've said, can get rid of many thing in one shot, and it's not even targeted, bye bye pristine angel)

If I am not wrong this is the text of Echoing Truth:

"Return target nonland permanent and all other permanents with the same name as that permanent to their owners’ hands."

So it does target, or so it seems. I can't catch the point about Pristine Angel.

Anyway, thanks all for this precoius discussion about the deck I do play. In the last tournament I played it I went undefeated through the swiss and placed 6° due to a nightmare match against turbo-Oath. I do believe the red splash does its job properly, and my tests confirm the mana base that has been suiggested works really well.

[Snoop]

The Annul thing I have been thinking about for a while, just because i get really annoyed with Stax opening (Smokestack, trinisphere, chalice etc) although I have rebuild it is all too late against Stax if they go nutz.

I don't know what more to say except Gifts Ungiven does not belong in TPS. It strategically impair the deck for any kind of setup you are trying to do. What exactly do you get off Gifts anyway? please tell me because I'm having a hard time figuring out how you get something while not putting all your bombs in your graveyard. I mean what use is it to wheel into nothingness? Maybe you just need to explain how you make Gifts good in a deck where Intuition would be better if you're looking for a search card.

[Malhavoc]

1 Echoing Truth (as you've said, can get rid of many thing in one shot, and it's not even targeted, bye bye pristine angel)

If I am not wrong this is the text of Echoing Truth:

"Return target nonland permanent and all other permanents with the same name as that permanent to their owners’ hands."

So it does target, or so it seems. I can't catch the point about Pristine Angel.

Damn, you've caught me before I was able to edit it..  :lol:

Yes, you are right, however it can bounce back even an untapped pristine if the targetted one is tapped. Just imagine: the oath player oath out the second pristine and then attack with the first. You cast cunning and then cast echoing truth on the tapped one. If the oath player was too hasty and attacked without an instant in his hand, now both angels are in his hand, and you've probably won the match.

[Yokomoto]

But most oath players are smarter than that. If they don't have an instant in hand and they are playing against control they won't attack with pristine.

[Didor]

@snoop: with gifts, you can for example get  REB,pyroblast,duress,FoW (after side against control); or you can get vampiric, demonic, mystical, will, or will, lotus, ritual, tral, or just some mana, or will + 3 bombs...

[Phele]

Ok, Gifts Ungiven:

For sure you play it eot. If your are looking for a bomb you go for Necro, Yagmoth's Will, Timetwister, Black Lotus. Opponent probably won't give you Necro nor Will so you get Twister and Dark Ritual. Necro and Will will get shuffled in again and you get seven cards + three Mana. With Fact or Fiction you probably will get just a bomb and a land or the bomb alone.

If you are looking for Acceleration you go for Lotus, Dark Ritual, Mana Crypt and Mox Saph or Jet.

If your are looking for Disruption you go for FoW, Duress, Cunning Wish and whatever you need.

Just a few examples and there are more possibilities. It's not Intuition, it's better, because it has an additional card advantage. I just played it this weekend in the sideboard at a 119 participant tournament where it worked great. Look at the top8 of the 12. of November:

http://www.theabyss.biz/magic.htm

There are three players playing it all main. And this is Italy, where the deck with all its strengthes has been developed and where you find many of the best TPS players. That's all I can say about that. If you really think Gush or Fact are better, play them.

[xDeathwishx]

Gifts is of course the better option against FoF for TPS since FoF has the restriction of being limited to the top five cards of your library. Since gifts can go for any cards, you go for ie) Vampiric, Demonic, Death Wish, and Burning or Mystical... With all of the tutors, your bound to end up with the card you need, but with FoF its definately not guaranteed.

[Snoop]

I think I was mistaken when I said I liked FoF ... I didn't mean it was greater than Gifts Ungiven ... more or less the reason I dislike Gifts is the 4 casting cost. TPS reliably can get to 3 mana turn two, and quite often on turn one frequently. For this reason I'm cautious of using a 4CC spell that isn't a specific tutor. I do understand that the card advantage is +1, but does TPS really need Gifts or is Gifts just the current card to fill the gap. It always seems like no matter what TPS build you look at it has one or two cards which you really wish were another solid 3CC draw7 (Gifts Ungiven, Meditate, Diminishing Returns, Cunning Wish, Gush, Fact or Fiction). Is there a better answer for this dilemna or is Gifts the current best fit?

[Malhavoc]

But most oath players are smarter than that. If they don't have an instant in hand and they are playing against control they won't attack with pristine.

TPS is not a control deck, so Oath players could prefer trying to end the game as soon as possible attacking. Anyway, as an Oath player, I wouldn't side in Pristine Angel against TPS, so it does not matter really. The echoing truth on Pristine Angel was really a mistake I've made, I just wanted to say that it can be used to bounce an untapped Pristine Angel if another one is tapped, but it's not really relevant anyway.

[Snoop]

The correct sideboarding of Oath vs TPS would either be:

-SotN, -Akroma, +Platinum Angel, +Arcane Lab

OR

-SotN, -Spell, +Platinum Angel, +Arcane Lab

The only difference or not being whether they leave in Akroma or not. In my personal opinion the second SB is preferred against hardcore combo, LongDeath + Doomsday ... whereas the first SB is the best against TPS, since although Platinum Angel is great, TPS has no problem taking care of opposing threats if given the extra turns that Akroma takes away.

I'm am of course saying this assuming they are playing meandeck oath (the current best one) and not some random Eternal Witness/Darksteel Colossus variant.

[MIZEnhauer]

I dont know too much on the topic, but i would think that doomsday would be a bad matchup.  Since they are just as fast if not faster and they have more disruption.  Maybe playing a Brain Freeze in the Maindeck or the sideboard, depending on whether or not you play Cunning Wish would help.  This spell can really mess up Doomsday after they set up their stack.

[ViRidIAnLoNGBoW]

I still dont like gifts ungiven but i guess if you go for something like ritual, necro, Yag will and twister it may work.  I dont think Its necessarily better then fact, but I suppose it can be just as good.

As I mentioned earlier, I also think that doomesday can be a challenging matchup.  The only answer I can see for it is either Cranial extraction(which i just got 3 foil of for a DCI balance and 10 bucks!! ), extract, or an unanswered platnum angel or as MIZEnhauer just said, brainfreeze, which is not as good as the other choices but still an answer IF you run cunning wish.

[Snoop]

Ok as far as the Doomsday match, here's the jig - Cranial Extraction BAD, Platinum Angel for the WIN. One of the main reasons I've decided to play Platinum Angel SB is for this match. Although they are fast, quick and simple disruption can allow you to combo out earlier. Just don't underestimate the power of their deck and never Draw7 before you combo or you've probably dug you're own grave.

Also i'M starting to have a little more respect for Gifts Ungiven ... it's basically a better intuition. It provides the card advantage of FoF (+1) but it guarantees two bombs in your hand at least.

[ViRidIAnLoNGBoW]

After some testing against slaver and workshop, ive decided that although gifts IS better in TPS then fact, Intuition is far supreme.  Intuition grabs counters, duress, rituals, rituals AND lotus before a yag will, and other stuff of the like.  the best that you can hope for with gifts is a draw 7 and a ritual or something like that.  Also, a drained gifts is a huge momentum swing in their favor and also means that you have probably just wasted a ritual or something to play it.  

As for Cranial extraction, Ive finally brought myself to accept that its just not good in T1, or at least in TPS.

What do You guys think about possibly main boarding/sideboard Unmask.  With the apparent return of control to the format, could additional hand disruption be a good thing (well, its always a good thing, but how about in TPS.).

[Snoop]

I think the real question is - what are you pitching to Unmask? Unmask served me well as a SB card for both LongDeath and Doomsday ... but in TPS what do you pitch Dark Ritual or a busted black card? The major difference between the two decks is speed. LongDeath and Doomsday want to win within the first two turns preferrably ... whereas TPS just wants to win. The difference is you are sacrificing card advantage to play a "burst" combo deck that just wants to go nutz and do it as fast as possible.  TPS wins the game via disruption and card advantage. Maybe i could see Unmask vs Control ... but then again would you rather just play something more diruptive (Hurkyl's/Rebuild vs Control Slaver for example).

[ViRidIAnLoNGBoW]

While it is true that every black card in TPS is to some degree broken, and I would deffinately never pitch like a necro or something, but how bout those times where you need the extra black, but need to play duress to protect your combo.  If you have unmask AND a duress, or so other black card that is uneeded at the moment (like bargain when you already have necro out, or another unmask) now you save your mana and get their counter, stifle, welder, ect...  Perhaps its a little to situational, but it seems that Tog may be making a comeback and slaver is on the rise again, so mabye some additional disruption is needed.

[Malhavoc]

Ok as far as the Doomsday match, here's the jig - Cranial Extraction BAD, Platinum Angel for the WIN. One of the main reasons I've decided to play Platinum Angel SB is for this match.

I see Platinum to be almost useless against Doomsday. He can win with a big tendril anyway, just targeting a couple more tendrils on the platinum. Or he can doomsday for the beacon of destruction kill, just being sure to raise the storm counter a bit more, thus being able to cast 5 beacons, one of which going to kill the angel.

[Didor]

@ Malhavoc: Hum, just a little point: tendrils can only target players, not creatures... although I admit having done this mistake once, which cost me the game.

By the way - even if this deviates a bit from the current discussion - what has been your thought on splashing red ?
For me, it has not proved stellar so far... Wheel is really nice and much better than the Frantic Search it has replaced in my build, but sometimes I have it and no fetchland/red, and there are also times where I feel more vulnerable to wastelands.
The same way, REB+ Pyro alow lots of Gifts Ungiven goodness, but do not entirely make up for the weaker mana base.
Therefore I do not know if the strengh of the wheel and the red sideboard goodies is worth the weakening...

[Malhavoc]

@ Malhavoc: Hum, just a little point: tendrils can only target players, not creatures... although I admit having done this mistake once, which cost me the game.

OMG. Sorry for this incredible mistake . However, Doomsday could simply use the beacon to win, and that one CAN target creatures.

By the way - even if this deviates a bit from the current discussion - what has been your thought on splashing red ?
For me, it has not proved stellar so far... Wheel is really nice and much better than the Frantic Search it has replaced in my build, but sometimes I have it and no fetchland/red, and there are also times where I feel more vulnerable to wastelands.
The same way, REB+ Pyro alow lots of Gifts Ungiven goodness, but do not entirely make up for the weaker mana base.
Therefore I do not know if the strengh of the wheel and the red sideboard goodies is worth the weakening...

The UB version lost (compared to the old WUBR one) two cards: enlighted tutor and wheel. With the need for good mana base, these cards were removed. However the deck lost a lot in terms of pure speed too. Even if the enlighted tutor is not that good, wheel is really broken, and it was a pity losing it. It makes the deck a lot more fast and explosive, and IMHO it is worth it. After all you don't lose almost anything in terms of a good mana base. There is a tiny risk of being unable to cast the wheel sometimes, that's true, but after all I didn't feel that happenes to much often.

[ViRidIAnLoNGBoW]

Ive updated my list to include both intuition which I have found too broken not to include, and I am putting wheel back into the deck.  Its to broken not to have and as previously pointed out, it does not disrupt your mana base at all especially with 4 delta.

MANA
3-underground sea
1-volcanic island
2-island
2-swamp
4-polluted delta
1-tolarian academy
5-moxen
1-chrome mox
1-LED
1-Black lotus
4-Dark ritual
1-sol ring
1-mana vault
1-mana crypt
1-lotus petal

Broken stuff
1-mind's desire
1-windfall
1-wheel of fortune
1-time spiral
1-time twister
1-necro
1-Bargain
1-yag will
1-memory jar

tutors
1-demonic tutor
1-vampiric tutor
1-mystical tutor
1-tinker
1-intuition

disruption/bounce
2-rebuild
4-force of will
4-duress

Draw
4-brainstorm
1-ancestral recall

KILL
2-tendrils of agony

For the sideboard, I am hesitant to post a list only because aside for 4-5 cards, the rest are really meta choices, but if I had a waterbury type event tommorow (btw im going on the 15th and am really pumped already!) here is the board I would have:

3-echoing truth
3-energy flux
3-hydroblast
1-DSC
1-platnum angel
3-unmask
1-rebuild

hydroblasts are really shaky imo, just b/c they would only come in against slaver and food chain/sligh, and they dont come around too much any more.  I even tossed around making the blasts 2 engineered plague and 1 tormods crypt.  Plague comes in in both slaver and sligh and beats sligh and severly weakens slaver.  As for the crypt, most decks are based around welders nowadays and crypt is the perfent thing to stop them, as well as tog kinda being on the rise again and i wrecks them.  Unmask, I think is nasty against the new fish "phish" b/c it grabs meddling mage which, in case you havent noticed, WRECKS TPS.  It also grabs other things like welders, exalted angels, and any other thing besides land.

[sierra_gandalf]

And if you say "Spirit" with the plague against oath, you will win 'cause they can't put into play the spirits tokens ^^

[Snoop]

While yes naming "Spirit" does prevent them from Oathing, is it better than Gilded Drake? Besides if you're so concerned with SBing against the combo what happens when you lose the counterwar over an Arcane Lab. Then you're royally screwed. Echoing Truth does just as good a job and handles both. I think you guys are coming at this the wrong way. Although I do agree in the strength of Engineered Plague vs Welders, you should play the Oath match more like a control mirror. Every now and then you just go busted in the first turns. But if not you simply out play them by being reactive NOT proactive. In fact if you want the honest truth I have won many Oath matches simply by dominating them with their own tokens. A couple turns worth of swings and you have them in range for a small Tendrils or the ability to disrupt them while you finish them off with tokens.

A humorous time was had when I was playing vs Oath in SCG Chicago P9. I think it was like 6th round. He played Arcane Lab after i had one or two tokens from his land, I say 'ok ... you know you just dug your own grave?' Then I fanned my hand of 3x Force of Will, 2x Gilded Drake, and Ancestral Recall to the crowd. Needless to say that was an easy victory at that point. You see Engineered Plague is a problem, BUT what are you taking out to make it worth it, are you weakening the combo or losing search or disruption. I think it's noteworthy that many top finishing TPS decklists have been posting  more and more in the variety and less in the quantity (i.e. Several 1x spells [not just wish targets if they play wish]).

Also that is another qualm of mine ... should Cunning Wish just replaced with the appropriate main wish target (or SB fill in) for the metagame:

Control: Skeletal Scrying / Fact or Fiction / Gifts Ungiven
Workshop: Rebuild / Energy Flux
Combo: Stifle / Gifts Ungiven / Skeletal Scrying / Fact or Fiction / Platinum Angel
Aggro: Darksteel Colossus / Platinum Angel

[ViRidIAnLoNGBoW]

What happens when arcane I lose a counter war over arcane lab?  I echoing truth/chain of vapor it.  Unless they have huge counter backup, its just not going to stay in play.  Or if the truths fail, you can always tinker for collosus or even better, platnum angel.  oath has no answer for it and then you can just sit them out.  

I have to say, and it's mostly my fault, the majority of the posts have been on strategy agains Oath, but Oath seems to be on the decline because of people trying to screw with a good thing and add black and other colors to oath.  News flash people OATH WORKS FINE U/G.  disrupting the mana base to try and make it 4CC with oath and akroma is just stupid.  But thats a discussion for another time, and I digress...  

I think now the decks to look at more closely have to be "phish" the new fish with white and more importantly main board meddling mage.  Also my prediction is the return of tog and control slaver, especially with workshop possibly getting the ax.  If workshop goes, then combo can run all over the format for all of about 5 minutes before someone realizes that its time to resleave that dusty control deck and start crushing all us combo players.  So with that, what to you people think of sideboard defense grid.  I know it stops your forces and end of turn brainstorms/cunning wish/anything else, but It stops theirs and their mana drains, mana leaks, and stifles as well, and thats more important.

[ump]

Okay.  I have a sideboarding question for you guys.  How effective have Hydroblasts been for you in your experience?  I know the TPS primer recommends 3-4 and the decklist on the first page uses 3.  The Blasts are for Welders and can possibly be used to up the storm count.  In my playtesting experience, the number one problem has been the first turn Trinisphere followed by other threats.  Welder has rarely been the issue.  With that in mind, I am considering changing those slots to more artifact bounce and some lands to help under the Trinisphere.  Here is what I am thinking.  The sideboard would come in place of Duress, Tinker, Jar, etc.

4 MD Force of Will
4 MD Duress
1 MD Chain of Vapor
1 MD Rebuild

2 SB Chain of Vapor
2 SB Hurkyl's Recall
2 SB Rebuild
2 SB Lands

The two lands that are high on my list are Ancient Tomb (so they can accelerate the bounce one turn earlier) and Darksteel Citadel (because they are immune to strips).

So my two questions?
1) What are the best lands to sideboard?
2) Do you find 3-4 Hydroblasts useful in the workshop matchups?  Are they more useful than trying to get out of the Trinisphere lock?

[ViRidIAnLoNGBoW]

hydroblasts are a meta choice.  however, they do alot more then stop welder, they also grab blood moon, rack and ruin, shamman, opposing red blasts/pyroblasts, wheel of fortune, and a plethra of other red spells.  as far as sb lands, prob not as good idea as you may think.  There's a reason for mainboarding 4-5 basic lands, so boarding 2 is a waste of space.  You can even get away with sideboarding back to basics, which closes the door on all workshop decks.  Unless they get crucible+strip mine going, the mana base is not the problem.  

Ive recently been testing running defense grid in the board and have found it to work very well.  In my testing against 4CC and slaver, I went a combined 42 and 8 in games, 2 of which I lost on horrible misplays, and the other 6 I lost due to either losing a counter war or, to my suprise lost twice to 1st turn tinker collosus.  I also only lost 1 game where I had defense grid out against these decks.  However, it is also a meta call and does not necessarily belong in every board