Revisitting Tortise #1

[fadeblue]

Just for benchmark purposes, here's the results for the LeviaShot deck I proposed earlier:

tolarian academy
black lotus
library of leng
gemstone array
death wish
mirari
stream of life

death wish
battle of wits
scattershot
leviathan (x200)
piper's melody

// 14 turns for setup
1 academy, lotus, array
2 library
3 charge.1
4 charge.2
5 charge.3
6 mirari
7 charge.1
8 charge.2
9 charge.3
10 wish+mirari (5 life) for wish+battle
11 charge.1
12 charge.2
13 charge.3
14 wish+mirari (1 life) for wish+melody

// 2^1997-2 turns to gain 2^1997-1 life
2^1997-3  charge.2^1997-3
2^1997-2  stream for 2^1997-1

// 7802 turns to build mana and win
7800 charge.7800
7801 wish+mirari 200 times for wish+leviathan <storm 200> [400 divisions]
  play 200 leviathans <storm 400>
  play battle <storm 401>
  wish for wish 1596 times <storm 1997> [1996 divisions]
  wish for scattershot <storm 1998> [1997 divisions]
  scattershot+mirari, killing all leviathans
  piper's melody
7802 win
(total of 1200+1800+5+4791+6+1=7803 mana, 1997 life divisions)
 
total turns: 14 + 2^1997 - 2 + 7802 = 2^1997 + 7814 turns


Nibble's idea with the Guiding Spirit is interesting. If I use that to replace my Piper's Melody, this number can easily be extended to an even much larger amount.

EDIT: Oops, I fudged my results - I forgot it's better to wish for the Leviathans during the final turn. I'm updating now.

[Nibble]

Stream of Life is a GREAT idea. The entire idea of Scattershot, Final Fortunes, and all that is to force an insane life requirement because there's no way to gain life in between. Stream fixes this issue entirely by just saying, 'Hey, you've only got one chance to gain life. Better get it all while you can.'

...Which is why I'm hating Coffin Purge more and more. It lets you reuse Stream, which is a no-no. It may seem weird to be using Death Wishes to recur a lifegain card, but it's still very much faster:

Start at 16 life
Death Wish for Death Wish (8)
Mirari Wish for Leviathan (4)
Death Wish for Death Wish (2)
Mirari Wish for Stream (1)

Stream for 255 (256)
Death Wish for Death Wish (128)
Mirari Wish for Scattershot (64)
Death Wish for Death Wish (32)
Mirari Wish for Stream (16)
Death Wish for Death Wish x4 (8,4,2,1)
Stream for 15 (16)
Scattershot + Mirari


Er, there's also Coffin Purging in there, but you get the idea. That loop x 200 is absolutely nowhere near the 2^1900+ needed when you have to Scattershot all at once.

So, yeah. Any way to make a Guiding Spirit-esque engine work without using Coffin Purge? If we could make a deck that only had one Stream of Life for lifegain, required over 1900 life payments to Scattershot Leviathans, and then needed about 1200 more to put them into the deck.. whoa.

[fadeblue]

One additional obstacle to adding a Guiding Spirit-esque is engine is that it will very likely 'dilute' the deck. Currently, the only way to build a storm count is through repeated Wishes, but if you add in some other looping mechanism, you can build your storm count through other spells (and only occasional Wishes). It'll be tough to try to come up with something that will keep the Wish requirements intact.

EDIT: I guess one thing you can do, although it's very inelegant, is to add Volrath's Stronghold and 199 Turnabouts to the sideboard.

[Alfred]

Or just volrath's stronghold, turnabout and two decomposes.

EDIT:

That's the problem with an unlimited sideboard, you can just keep adding cards to make the deck worse and worse.

[combo_dude]

Really, I think that SB should be limited to 15 cards. The only two rules that are ignored are that a) your opponent doesn't play any cards (but still attacks with Forbidden Orchard Tokens and anything else they get), and b) you don't lose from not drawing a card.

There's no rule about breaking open the SB - even the Vintage B&R list is in effect - and so it *is* technically against the rules to have an infinite SB, as they either have to be 15 or 0.

[Alfred]

Agreed. Otherwise it just gets too silly, because you really can't get to a point where the deck can't get any better.

[virtual]

That's fair... I've had that thought from the get go, but figured we could go with big SBs.  

200 leviathans aren't allowed either, 4of anything is max =).

Those changes might bring this back to spicy.  (whatever that means)

-Virtual

[combo_dude]

By "spicy", in the circumstances I would interpret it as meaning "within the bounds of human imagination".

[fadeblue]

Yeah, I had expected a 4-of limit as well, but when I saw other people using 196 Final Fortunes or 7 Leviathans, I figured we had thrown the book out the window.

So now we're back to what?

[virtual]

OK...

15 Card SB Max

Nothing is banned...
Standard Type1 banned/restricted list applies.

-Virtual

[CaptainPlanet.dec]

Energy Flux
Ancestral Mask
Diamond Kaliedoscope
Hickory Lot
Braidwood Cup
Channel
Soldevi Digger

Lot.
Digger.
Channel, dig Channel and Lot. (16)
Lot.
Channel, Braidwood Cup, Kaliedoscope, dig Channel, gain 1. (8)
Channel, Charge, gain 1, dig Channel and Lot. (2)
Lot. Gain 1. (3)
Gain 1 (4)
Gain 1 (5)
Channel, charge, gain 1, dig Channel. (1)
Gain 1
Gain 1
Gain 1
Gain 1
Gain 1
Gain 1
Gain 1 (8)
Channel, charge, gain 1, dig Channel and Lot (1)
Lot. Gain 1. (2)
Gain 1
Gain 1
Gain 1 (5)
Channel, charge gain 1, dig Channel. (1)



The cycle is this:
Channel, charge, gain 1, dig Channel. (1)
Gain 1
Gain 1
Gain 1
Gain 1
Gain 1
Gain 1
Gain 1 (8)
Channel, charge, gain 1, dig Channel and Lot (1)
Lot. Gain 1. (2)
Gain 1
Gain 1
Gain 1 (5)


13 Turns = 2 tokens.

Since you need to be able to attack with the 2/3, you'll need 177,153 tokens to keep it alive.

177,154/2 x 13 = 1,151,501 turns

Not enough.

[Godder]

This could probably be in the other Tortoise thread since it's a non-Wish, non-Cumulative Upkeep deck...

Anyway, I think it was covered in that thread that the Energy Flux/Ancestral Mask/Diamond Kaleidoscope deck only requires 9 turns of paying upkeep, because you can attack the turn the enchantments are dropped, so you 'only' need 19683 tokens to pay the upkeep, assuming only tokens. However, the Woodlot can be used to pay the upkeep for the enchanted token for at least the last two turns, which drops the number of tokens required to 2187, which lowers things somewhat.

[CaptainPlanet.dec]

Well I thought about this engine for mana:

Burning Wish
Mirari
Channel
Black Lotus
Mox Ruby
Diamond Kaleidoscope
Lion's Eye Diamond

Not only is it an engine, you can also grab your win with it. However, I can't seem to set it up right.

Lotus, sac for GGG, Channel, Lion's Eye Diamond, Ruby, Mirari, Kaleidoscope, Burning Wish with copy (Death Wish and Yawgmoth's Will), Sac LED in responce for BBB, Yawgmoth's Will, Lotus, LED, sac for BBB, Death Wish with copy (Death Wish, Braidwood Cup), Cup. I have ZERO life. Ugh.

[fadeblue]

Here's what I've been working on:

upwelling
cabal pit
dark ritual
elvish spirit guide
tower of eons
death wish
death wish

SB:
divergent growth
decompose
decompose
mirari
donate
relic bind
metal fatigue

You start off by playing Cabal Pit, removing ESG, then playing Ritual and Upwelling. Bring out Tower of Eons, which will let you gain 2 life every 8 turns (and you have to start with at least 9 life). MirariWish for the combo pieces (you can gain life between the Wishes). Once you've stored enough mana and life, you can go for the win.

Donate your Tower (you need to keep your Mirari). Play Relic Bind on it, then Metal Fatigue to do 1 damage to your opponent. Decompose the Fatigue, Wish for it, then play it the next turn. Decompose the first Decompose and the Fatigue, Wish for both, then play Fatigue the next turn. Repeat until you do 20 damage. This requires you to play 37 Wishes (and 37 Wish copies), so you need 2^74 life. Because you only gain 2 life per 8 turns, this means you need at least 2^77 (or roughly 10^23) turns for this deck. I don't have an exact figure yet, but I think that's pretty good.

[CaptainPlanet.dec]

Channel
Paradigm Shift
Black Lotus
Regrowth
Gemstone Array
Burning Wish
Mirari

SB
Braidwood Cup
Death Wish
Strength of Ceders
Diamond Kaliedoscope
Elvish Cache
Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Wow, inherent brokeness is insane.

Turn 1: Lotus, Channel, Regrowth on Lotus, Digm Shift, Gemstone Array, Mirari (12)
Turn 4: Lotus, Channel, Regrowth miraried on Digm Shift and Lotus, Lotus, Burning Wish miraried for Braidwood Cup and Death Wish. Cup, tap it, Digm Shift. (1)
Turn X: Lotus, Channel, Regrowth miraried for Digm Shift and Lotus, Lotus for BBB, Death Wish miraried for Death Wish and Elvish Cache.
Turn x+y: Lotus, Channel, Regrowth miraried for Digm Shift and Lotus, Lotus, sac Lotus for GGG, Cache miraried for Regrowth and Lotus, Lotus for BBB, Regrowth miraried for Cache and Lotus, Lotus add BBB, Death Wish miraried for Death Wish and Strength of Sceders, Death Wish miraried for The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Diamond Kaleidoscope, charge z.

Do this cycle: Ceders, Digm, Regrowth Digm. Attack for 1. Next turn Ceders, Digm. 2 turns later repeat cycle. It takes 20 mana 3 turns and attack for 1 twice.

20 x 10 = 200 Mana and 30 turns to win.

If anyone wants to do the math they can, its 2 AM here and I'm tired. I'm guessing it's somewhere in the lots.

[CaptainPlanet.dec]

Turn 1: Lotus, Channel, Regrowth on Lotus, Digm Shift, Gemstone Array, Mirari (12)
Turn 4: Lotus, Channel, Regrowth miraried on Digm Shift and Lotus, Lotus, Burning Wish miraried for Braidwood Cup and Death Wish. Cup, tap it, Digm Shift. (1)
Turn X: Lotus, Channel, Regrowth miraried for Digm Shift and Lotus, Lotus for BBB, Death Wish miraried for Death Wish and Elvish Cache.
Turn x+y: Lotus, Channel, Regrowth miraried for Digm Shift and Lotus, Lotus, sac Lotus for GGG, Cache miraried for Regrowth and Lotus, Lotus for BBB, Regrowth miraried for Cache and Lotus, Lotus add BBB, Death Wish miraried for Death Wish and Leviathon, Death Wish miraried for Death Wish and Scatterschot, Death Wish miraried for Salvaging Station and Death Wish, Death Wish miraried for Death Wish and Firebolt, play Foundry (Leviathon.

Over next turns play enough Leviathon so that you can untap Salvaging Station enough times to replay Lotus enough times to play Firebolt, Flash it back, and Death Wish for it so it will kill them. You need 9 mana to play and flash it back for 4 damage.

[Godder]

Ancient Tomb
Ancient Tomb
Diamond Kaleidoscope
Rejuvenation Chamber
Soldevi Digger
Death Wish
Death Wish

SB:
Mirari
Leviathan
Furious Assault
Scattershot

Basically, recycle the Rejuvenation Chamber every four turns with the Digger for a net gain of 1 life per cycle (Chamber gives 8 life, but casting it costs 4 damage plus 1 mana burn, plus 2 damage to recycle it with Digger). Every so often, make a Prism token (this is the mana storage facility, as well as the colour filtering) which causes 4 damage and 1 mana burn, so costs 5 life = 20 turns.

Eventually, there will be enough tokens saved up to Death Wish for Mirari, cast Mirari and then use Mirari/Wish to collect Leviathan, Furious Assault and Scattershot.

The win is to cast Furious Assault, and then cast Leviathan to deal 1 damage. Then cast Wish for Wish and repeat until the storm count is enough to kill Leviathan with Scattershot, allowing it to be recycled with Digger.

Not sure about number of turns, but Death Wish has to be cast ~160 times, and Leviathan 20 times, so it's likely to add up to a bit...