[Discussion] Adapting Tog to win in this metagame.

[Ultima]

In the recent months of Vintage, Tog has seen a dramatic retreat from tier1 in the format.  Everybody attributes this to Fish, but with Fish having also taken a dive, the question then becomes, why hasn’t Tog risen back to the top?  

Why not simply sleeve your old tog deck back up and give it a go?  Relatively quickly, you’ll probably notice that you’ll lose virtually every game against 5/3 and Stax badly while putting up a good fight against Titan and Oath.  The thing is that Fish did drop off the map but that was because more powerful tempo stealing decks had arisen.  Fish would waste your underground seas and tropicals to buy enough time while its weenies beat you down, but now its much different monster that lurks at your door.  Workshop plays crucibles to continually waste your manabase with one wasteland while trinisphere halts you from playing acceleration or counters or draw spells all the while there’s a hulking artifact creature beating your face.  So the question changes from, how do I beat Fish to how do I beat workshop?

I’m not gonna dismiss Control Titan and Oath from the metagame here but these matchs become more focused on the ak wars than anything else and all Tog really has to do to win here is play its complement of duresses and deep analysis to win the ak wars like the mirror matches of the past followed by a good sideboard and a lot of testing.  Workshop is not so easily dispatched however.

Take your standard Tog list.  This will be a 3-color list because I honestly don’t think that 4-color tog has a chance to beat workshop without a miracle.

3 Psychatog
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Deep Analysis
3 Cunning Wish
3 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring/Mana Crypt
5 Moxen
1 Swamp
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta

Pretty basic here, nothing nobody hasn’t seen before.  The problem here is that, builds like this are built on the idea that the fundamental turn in T1 is 2.  That is simply not the case anymore.  I contend that the fundamental turn is now 1 with the advent of both trinisphere and crucible.  For this reason, you have to be ready to either counter something on turn 1 or be doing something on turn 1 that accelerates your tempo by a large degree.  It is for this same reason why I believe that duress doesn’t have a place in Tog right now.  Before, duress used to be that proactive counter that stole enough tempo from your opponent that his turn 1 didn’t matter, but that simply isn’t the case anymore.  Now workshop is so inherently broken that despite duress, they have huge tempo plays.  Moreover, welder negates the very goal duress plays.

Ex. (in the case of stax, you can simply replace instances of the words fattie with tangel wire or smokestack)

Turn 1.

Tog – play a sea or fetch, mox, and play duress.  Take 3sphere or crucible or something else if playing stax.

Workshop- wasteland or volcanic into welder (or tangle wire or stack if playing stax).
 
Right here, you can already see that the tog player is in a bad spot.  Because he’s either set you back a turn from double blue or he’s played a welder which negates your duress altogether since he can weld in whatever you dropped.
Now if the tog player has a force for the welder, that’s good but he’s now down 4 card hand after the draw and assuming he has another land, that’s only 1 or 2 things more he can do while the workshop player is looking at a 6-7 card hand on the draw.  Its amazing how fast workshop can beat based solely on card advantage.

Turn 2

Tog- play another land- (if didn’t lose that land, you have double blue up)

Workshop- weld in crucible or trinisphere or whatever and either wasteland again or drop a workshop and play a fattie or prison part. either way your screwed.

Or, in case you had the force

Workshop- wasteland or drops a fattie or prison component.  4-turn clock begins. After this its pretty hard to still win as your tog could come down but he’ll be overwhelmed with large fatties while your manabase remains undeveloped and a trinisphere keeps your draw down as well.

Looking at it the other way, say the workshop player went first, which is worse.

Turn 1-

Workshop- workshop, trinisphere (tog either forces or losses right here)

The reason why tog loses right here without a force is because, the workshop player has stolen all your tempo for the next 2 turns at least because you can’t play a spell now for at least 2 turns while he’ll be dropping a juggernaut or su-chi and beating you down.

Right here, its ever more about who wins the die roll just to see if have a chance in the game at all.

As you can see, duress just doesn’t do what it used to and workshop can just shoot right through it anyway.  With this in mind, I contend that tog needs a better first turn play than duress.

What else then?

There are several other options but when you review them there’s only really one option.  There’s daze and misdirection but both of these are far too conditional and simply don’t anything against workshop which has no misdirectable targets or has too much mana acceleration.  Therefore that leaves only one option, mana leak.

Mana Leak over Duress- this is what I think is the better option for tog. Mana Leak can counter everything that duress can but it keeps the tempo in your ballpark because your opponent has to play it in his turn.  Moreover, duress leaves your manabase exposed to wastelands while you can safely fetch into basic islands with mana leak.

Example-

Turn1

Tog- fetch or island, mox- leak up

Workshop- workshop- trinisphere, you leak

Turn 2-

Tog- play a fetch or island, drain up

Workshop- drops whatever and you drain.

Turn 3- you can use drain mana into intuition/ak and start winning.

You see there’s a huge difference here because leak keeps you away from wastelands while also keeping the tempo in your favor. Now you may not have a mox every first turn but if you don’t, there’s a good chance you have a force instead for turn 1 and can do something else perhaps.  Now leak doesn’t change a whole lot for you if you go second but neither did duress.  At least you have a much better game if they don’t drop a trinisphere before you get a turn.

Conclusion

I concede that Tog has a much better game against Workshop if plays mana leak and starts off the game like Mono-U.  This way you have a better grip on the tempo control and you keep your lands away from the waste/crucible lock.

Here is GRO’s current Tog list

 The Beast

4 Psychatog

4 Mana Leak
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
2 Deep Analysis
3 Cunning Wish
3 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
5 Moxen
5 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp

The manabase here is very solid, always giving you access to basics early.  The 4th tog, I think is absolutely necessary now.  With the format being as fast and hard as it is, you never want to be looking for a tog. You have to play that 4th tog so that you have a board answer down against aggro and save your counters for more important things like welders, duplicants, or platinum angels. We maintain that 4 togs is absolutely necessary.

These are the changes that I believe are necessary for Tog to compete at a real level in this metagame.

Thoughts/Comments?

[Moxlotus]

What would your opinion be of [card] sarcatog [/card]

It surprised the hell out of me when I saw it in that Italian T8.  I even had to look up what it was.  However, it may be worth a slot for testing.

Now this would require cutting green for red.  Which color would be better for this deck?  Is it possible that you could take Tog in 2 different directions-1 more focused on combo and 1 more controlling like the successful Italian versions?

EDIT:  I expected to take flack from sarcatog.  I was merely bringing up the possibility because it did make an appearance in a first place deck in a field of WS.

[MIZEnhauer]

I was thinking of playing a UBg Tog deck this weekend at the Jersey Lotus tournament although I wanted to include multiple copies of Pernicious Deed.  If you want the deck to play Red instead of green.  You get the advantages of Rack and Ruin although in my opinion E.E. is worse than Deed which I think many people will agree with me on. I think that the list you listed doesn't really have a way of removing a weldre that resolves.  Also in any deck that plays a Wish in its deck the sideboard is just as important as the maindeck.  So could you put up a list of that too.
Thank You

[firebird365]

What would your opinion be of [card] sarcatog [/card]

It surprised the hell out of me when I saw it in that Italian T8.  I even had to look up what it was.  However, it may be worth a slot for testing.

Now this would require cutting green for red.  Which color would be better for this deck?  Is it possible that you could take Tog in 2 different directions-1 more focused on combo and 1 more controlling like the successful Italian versions?

What would be the point of running this? I mean, you'll almost never have more Moxen on the board than cards in your hand, and sacrificing board position is just as bad, maybe worse than discarding some cards in your hand against problem decks like 5/3.

[Kowal]

re: cutting Duress

Every welder deck right now is running Thirst For Knowledge and friends to put its expensive stuff in the graveyard.  I've never, ever had a problem with duress taking an artifact instead of a draw spell.  Considering that people have a certain fondness for tutors and mana drains over the traditional parts now, I see Duress as only getting better.  Cutting a one cost spell for a two cost spell because the fundamental turn decreased seems really problematic and incorrect.  I also feel that the loss of Duress is something that exposes you to the other control decks, and makes them go from good matches to even matches.


re: four togs

I think this is also a step in the wrong direction.  While seeing a tog is great against aggro decks to pretend it's a moat, it won't answer Welder, which seems to be your biggest concern.  Running solutions like Pernicious Deed are much more effective in my opinion.


Moxlotus:  Sarcatog is trash.

MIZEnhauer:  The sideboard isn't relevant, it's a fairly straightforward concept and should be tailored to you and your metagame.  The stuff absolutely necessary is obvious, such as Berserk.  The red splash is pretty bad unless your metagame is 100% workshop.


Ultima's got a good thread going here.  Let's try to keep suggestions realistic and the posts well written to not bring it down, people.

[StarOrc]

@Kowal: I disagree that the red splash is garbage... It gives you solid cards vs Control, vs Agro, vs Workshops, and vs Control Slaver in REB, FTK, RnR and F/I (or Lava Dart   ). Personally I feel the red splash is much stronger in the current metagame with all the Workshops and Control Slaver decks running around. I don't think green helps that much vs anthing except for Agro with Zerk...

Corey

[Dante]

I think it's hard to discuss this deck without being very specific about the sideboard, since that directly affects the Red vs Green argument and because of the Cunning Wish's.  

Deed can be replaced by engineering explosives.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Tog does seem like it can make a comeback. My teammate Godot recenty T8 in SCGP9III with his version of tog. I REALLY liked his manabase, and if I were to play tog today, the manabase would look like:

4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Island
1 Swamp
7 SoLoMoxen

I really dislike mana crypt, but that is my own preference. Sol ring is amazing, because it help you break out of trinisphere like no other. I cut Library altogether because the goal of the deck should be turn 1 duress. I honestly don't see why you couldn't run this type of 4c Tog. The maindeck has NO green spells, and the only thing you really need thats green is Berserk. The loss of deed does hurt, but between Rack and Ruin and Fire/Ice, you should be fine.

As far as duress goes, I think it's absloutely necessary to run 4 duress. It's better than mana leak in almost every matchup. It is better vs. workshop decks IF AND ONLY IF you go first. if the workshop player goes first, leak really doesn't do much. Vs. combo, I'd rather jack their ONLY business spell than sit there and have them rape me with hand disruption and then win the game. You also mentioned that oath and control slaver are difficult matchups. Again, this is where duress shines.

Finally, about the colors of tog, I'm pretty torn right now. In my current metagame, there is ALOT of workshops, so I stick with red. If I were to go to something like SCGP9 again, I think I'd stick with BUg Tog. The versatility of Deed is nothing to scoff at. Plus, you have answers for workshop decks, like ground seal and back to basics.

-Bob

[jpmeyer]

Fetchlands are better than dual lands.  This is not because fetchlands can get dual lands.  This is because fetch lands can fetch basic lands.

I've been thinking really hard about how mana bases in Vintage are constructed.  It seems that everyone starts with the duals and then salts it with basics.  I'm trying to flip that around.  Check out this Tog mana base:

5 Islands (or maybe 1 Underground to fetch with Strand if necessary)
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland (so, Crucible?  You might even be able to go down to 2 because of Intuition)
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Flooded Strand
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria

5 Moxes
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

How hot is that?  You get 4 colors AND 4 Strips AND 6 basics!  The key is just to recognize that you are only casting at most one green or red, and at most two black spells each game.

Too bad that there really isn't a good way to get out a basic Mountain.  Then you could more reliably run REB instead of just say, Artifact Mutation or Rack and Ruin.  The best I can think of is running say, 2 Bloodstained Mire and then tossing in an Volcanic Island so that you can still fetch blue.

Don't play duals!  Play basics!

[Godot]

Wow, never thought I'd actually say this, but I think I have to agree/echo everything Kowal said.  Duress is absolutely HUGE in so many matchups its not funny.  Duress to Tog is like a young boy to Michael Jackson.  Only maybe once, ever, have I had a Duress work in my welder wielding opponents favor, whereas snagging Oaths, Animates, Tutors, or any of the bombs in combo before they can get mana down or tear my hand up has been hugely important.  Running 4 Togs is also wholly unnecessary.  I dont think I'd ever consider running more than 3.  You can intuition for them safely and they dont clog up your hand in the early game when I'd rather just be drawing cards.  If an early Tog is necessary then you can just tutor one up.  I think the 4th Tog slot could be much better used for a copy of Engineered Explosives

As for the colors in Tog, I think a 3 color version with wastes is necessary for the current metagame--although I did have to change my pants after seeing that manabase JP just posted.  It is imperative that you have some way to answer a turn 1 Trinisphere because if they can follow that up with a significant clock or a Tangle Wire its more than likely over for your man.

@Kowal: I disagree that the red splash is garbage... It gives you solid cards vs Control, vs Agro, vs Workshops, and vs Control Slaver in REB, FTK, RnR and F/I (or Lava Dart Confused ). Personally I feel the red splash is much stronger in the current metagame with all the Workshops and Control Slaver decks running around. I don't think green helps that much vs anthing except for Agro with Zerk...

I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately, and I've finally come to the realization that green is definitely superior to red in this deck.  REB is pointless against everything that isnt the mirror.  Duress does its job, and does it better.  FTK...this is a joke right?  Engineered Explosives can do the same thing as F/I and Lava Dart.  Its more exspensive, but also more versatile.  RnR is the only thing I miss, but the speed of Oxidize is nice too.  Not to mention that green gives you Ground Seal, which, although enchantment hate is on the rise, remains hella strong.

In my current metagame, there is ALOT of workshops, so I stick with red.

Im not following you here dude.  Against workshops the traditional Ubg builds are hella stronger than the common Ubr builds since they have Wastes and typically B2B.  The artifact hate is also hella cheaper.


One thing that I really like about the posted build is the complete lack of Pernicious Deed.  Deed, while powerful, does not belong in any self respecting Tog players deck.

One card I have serious issues with in your build though  is Merchant Scroll--especially considering you run Mystical as well.  Everytime I've tested it I've absolutely hated the fact that its a sorcery.  I'd be interested to hear why y'all have kept this around as in my experience it has always been quite poor.

[Negator13]

@ JP:

I know you're stressing basics with that mana base, and you have a Swamp, but I think it really needs 1 Underground Sea. You want to be able to play turn 1 Duress, but if you fetch up a basic Swamp to do so you wont have double blue up turn 2.

Basically, in order to be able to play turn 1 Duress and turn 2 Drain, the Underground Sea is necessary.

[God_Campbell]

Sorry godot but I think 1 copy of deed is just damn necessary for the current metagame if tog has anychance at all.
It is always a necessary evil that will be there to bail you out of trouble from time to time and is the best damn option tog has for removal.
And as for the colour choices, it is all about green.
The options for sb and deed are just to powerful ot let go, like groundseal is gold in the mw.dec matches and b2b is great too.

[Morgorth]

I'm thinking your best chance with tog in the current meta game, esp after my last tourny i played at would be to cut tog to UBR and run Blood Moons, Berserk is pretty much a dead card for Tog anyways nowadays.  I can't think of another solid answer unless you wanna do the rogue tog thing and splash White where Green should be and run Orim's Chants. /shrug.

[StarOrc]

@Kowal: I disagree that the red splash is garbage... It gives you solid cards vs Control, vs Agro, vs Workshops, and vs Control Slaver in REB, FTK, RnR and F/I (or Lava Dart Confused ). Personally I feel the red splash is much stronger in the current metagame with all the Workshops and Control Slaver decks running around. I don't think green helps that much vs anthing except for Agro with Zerk...

I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately, and I've finally come to the realization that green is definitely superior to red in this deck.  REB is pointless against everything that isnt the mirror.  Duress does its job, and does it better.  FTK...this is a joke right?  Engineered Explosives can do the same thing as F/I and Lava Dart.  Its more exspensive, but also more versatile.  RnR is the only thing I miss, but the speed of Oxidize is nice too.  Not to mention that green gives you Ground Seal, which, although enchantment hate is on the rise, remains hella strong.

You're telling me that REB isn't good against Oath and Control Slaver? and that FTK (no its not a joke) isn't very strong vs 5/3 and Madness?
Fire/Ice is definately superior to Engineered Explosives, first of all Explosives comes down at Sorcery speed and secondly is definately not as versatile, Fire/Ice can tap a Trinisphere so you can play out spells on your turn as well as drop any Moxen you've been holding back as well as take out two welders.

Corey

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Im not following you here dude. Against workshops the traditional Ubg builds are hella stronger than the common Ubr builds since they have Wastes and typically B2B. The artifact hate is also hella cheaper.

It's not like you can't run B2B in UBr tog. As far as I know, the third color is basically cards you want in the board (the mana bases aren't too different). Also, you are right that oxidize is cheaper than rack and ruin, but it also doesn't 2 for 1. If Workshop decks get a trinisphere out, oxidize really blows. If they don't get out a trinisphere, chances are you'll have 3 mana (from moxes/lands, or drain mana) and can wreck havoc on their board. Oxidize may be better as a wish target, but games 2+3, I'd rather have the rack and ruin. Red also gives you REB, which is quite strong vs. slaver, and a nice wish target.

Green probably is the stronger color, though, as you get ground seal, which can be an absolute beating on Slaver and Dragon.

-Bob

[jpmeyer]

@ JP:

I know you're stressing basics with that mana base, and you have a Swamp, but I think it really needs 1 Underground Sea. You want to be able to play turn 1 Duress, but if you fetch up a basic Swamp to do so you wont have double blue up turn 2.

Basically, in order to be able to play turn 1 Duress and turn 2 Drain, the Underground Sea is necessary.

If you're not running 4 Duress, you won't see Duress on turn 1.

[JACO]

First of all, Duress if fucking money against pretty much everything in the format. If everybody is so worried about Trinisphere, then you should DEFINITELY be playing 4 Duresses. If you go first, you're going to snag their Trinisphere or other important card. If you don't, you've probably got to mulligan into a Force of Will. Duress at least gives you better odds of combating problematic cards like that, not to mention it's pure butter in the mirror.

Why not simply sleeve your old tog deck back up and give it a go?  Relatively quickly, you’ll probably notice that you’ll lose virtually every game against 5/3 and Stax badly while putting up a good fight against Titan and Oath.

Take your standard Tog list.  This will be a 3-color list because I honestly don’t think that 4-color tog has a chance to beat workshop without a miracle.

So what you're saying is, your problematic matches are primarily fucking WORKSHOP decks. Please stop denying that Red is good in Tog. Red + the increased Cunning Wishes helps combat control AND Workshop better than green does.

The red splash is pretty bad unless your metagame is 100% workshop.

RnR is the only thing I miss, but the speed of Oxidize is nice too...Against workshops the traditional Ubg builds are hella stronger than the common Ubr builds since they have Wastes and typically B2B. The artifact hate is also hella cheaper.

You guys are literally out of your minds. Green provides Oxidize against Workshop/Welder decks, as well as Ground Seal. Most Workshop decks are dropping Chalice for 1 and for 2 against you post board. Good job; their goes half or all of your plan to destroy those critical artifacts. Rack and Ruin is so superior to anything green can provide, because of the tempo it helps you regain by destroying 2 of their broken artifacts. You're not going to beat Workshop going 1 for 1, because theirs are just generally more broken.

Red Elemental Blast is good against half the field (i.e., all the other good decks that don't run Workshop, and run blue instead). They help to establish control  of pretty much anything your opponent can throw at you in those critical control wars. Lava Dart is also better against Goblin Welder than anything green has, and please don't even mention that bullshit about Ground Seal, because Lava Dart is basically uncounterable (casting it twice for very little of your resources is amazing).

Have any of you guys actually tested the Italians UBR T1Tog deck, or are you just prejudiced because you can't get those damn Beta Volcanic Islands?? Test it for like a week, and you will be happy, as it shores up Tog's weakest matchups. I thought that was the whole point of this thread; not just talking about how we can force green to be better in the deck.

[Wildthing]

I´m very happy with the italian T1Tog, my version with 4 cunning/4duress wins more against workshop than ever, i think It´s indeed a favorable matchup thanks to rack and ruin´s card advantage. In addition control decks are extremely easy to beat (except maybe oath and slavery).
The strongest part of the deck is side configuration, it has answers for everything, against welder I simply prefer snuff out over lava dart, it kills welders fastly and can deal with exalted angels or ophidians
Another card to consider in the red spalsh is firestorm, It´s god against fish or shitty aggro
I am considering playing 1 morphling in the sideboard against grave/tog hate. i have lost some games to tormods and only 2 togs can be a weak choice sometimes
I have also not tested too much the combo mathcup, how it is?
I would thank if JACO or somebody who has paytested the deck could tell me the result of his games, how they side and special choices in the maindeck/sideboard
I am still a little bit surprised with the sarcatog issue, but WTF he won.., I wouldn´t choose him over tog in any matchup but he is one of the best italian players so i suposse he would have some reasons

[Ultima]

@ Ben and Godot

The primary reasons why I think duress just doesn't do enough anymore is because

1. After you duress workshop, they still have a huge tempo play on their turn that you just can't stop without a force.

2. Duress doesn't give you enough control over the tempo game like leak does because you have to play duress in YOUR turn.

3. Duress is only good against control, and control was always one of tog's stronger matchs, so it makes sense that Tog should shift to try to beat its worser matchs which is workshop.

Godot, I don't really understand how you can defend the arguement for duress so well because in your own tourny report you stated how well you did until you got paired up against workshop, where you admit to having lost very badly each time it came your way.

Workshop is precisely what Tog has to adapt to playing because control matchs like Oath and Titan are much easier solved with a good sideboard and alot of testing while workshop is much more.

@Jaco

I'm sure about that your thinking about Tog the same way I am.  Oxidize isn't as amazing you say it is because, its not that easily cast with 3sphere everywhere or as good with welders everywhere.  Green has its advantages but red also has a good board as well.  The reason why I don't really like red very much is because the loss of berserk really hurts the aggro match ups.  True, there is fling, and other such things these days, you need to be able to win fast and playing red over green means you have to spend more time drawing cards before you can win while green lets you win in half the time against decks like madness where you don't have the luxury of time.  To be fair also, lava dart also gets countered by the chalices you sited, whether it can flashed back or not.    

The thing duress DOESN'T stop trinisphere.  Not only does duress not stop trinisphere because of welders but trinisphere is just most immediate threat with crucible, fatties, prison parts, and welders right behind em.  

I will be very honest with you and say that I have tested the Italian Tog as many times as the green tog as my teammates can attest to.  The problem with red is that I felt the loss of berserk made much weaker against non-workshop aggro, the board seems to neutar itself only for the artifact matchs while the deck becomes overly reliant on wishes at the same time.  There is a big difference between controlling the board and controlling the tempo of the game.  Green can be adapted for tempo control while red is more controlling of the board which is not how Tog is played correctly. This is the reason why I proposed the following changes.

[Zherbus]

3. Duress is only good against control, and control was always one of tog's stronger matchs, so it makes sense that Tog should shift to try to beat its worser matchs which is workshop.

Duress can make or break you in combo matchups too.

[Ultima]

That is very true as well.  I think though that combo is another match up that can be more easily shored up by a good sideboard like Arcane Lab or simply putting duress into the board.  Plus we're still trading duress for another counter, so it doesn't seem to have as much of an impact on the combo match after the testing.

[JACO]

@Jaco
I'm sure about that your thinking about Tog the same way I am.  Oxidize isn't as amazing you say it is because, its not that easily cast with 3sphere everywhere or as good with welders everywhere.  Green has its advantages but red also has a good board as well.  The reason why I don't really like red very much is because the loss of berserk really hurts the aggro match ups. True, there is fling, and other such things these days, you need to be able to win fast and playing red over green means you have to spend more time drawing cards before you can win while green lets you win in half the time against decks like madness where you don't have the luxury of time.  To be fair also, lava dart also gets countered by the chalices you sited, whether it can flashed back or not.    

The thing duress DOESN'T stop trinisphere.  Not only does duress not stop trinisphere because of welders but trinisphere is just most immediate threat with crucible, fatties, prison parts, and welders right behind em.  

I will be very honest with you and say that I have tested the Italian Tog as many times as the green tog as my teammates can attest to.  The problem with red is that I felt the loss of berserk made much weaker against non-workshop aggro, the board seems to neutar itself only for the artifact matchs while the deck becomes overly reliant on wishes at the same time.  There is a big difference between controlling the board and controlling the tempo of the game.  Green can be adapted for tempo control while red is more controlling of the board which is not how Tog is played correctly. This is the reason why I proposed the following changes.

Ultima, it seems that most of your fears stem from the loss of Berserk. WHY ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT NON-WORKSHOP AGGRO? In the current metagame (which this thread is supposed to be about), it is absolutely unplayable with the massive presence of Oath. 4 Cunning Wishes and even Engineered Explosives goes a long way towards helping the aggro match. This is also why the Italians are playing Flametongue in their boards, because it basically cantrips when it kills one of your opponent's peasant creatures, as well as provides an additional win condition. This is one thing to think about when playing against Control Slaver, as your own Flametongues can't really KILL you if your opponent gets off a Slaver. They can help deal with Goblin Welder and beat down at the same time, though. When aggro starts beating Oath, and showing up in large numbers, then you should switch back to the green splash, but not in the current metagame.

The strongest part of the deck is side[board] configuration, it has answers for everything, against welder I simply prefer snuff out over lava dart, it kills welders fastly and can deal with exalted angels or ophidians. Another card to consider in the red spalsh is firestorm, It´s god against fish or shitty aggro

Wildthing is pretty accurate here. Snuff Out is amazing as a Wish target, and Firestorm is your Pernicous Deed-like 'oh crap' button against random aggro. The 4 Wishes play an integral role in dealing with problematic permanents, and they should be played like opponent's end-of-turn Impulse/Demonic Tutor for whatever you need to combat your opponent's strategy. The people who have played 2 for so long need to realize this change in strategy, and start playing 3-4. Playing more Wishes allows you to not have to counter as many spells from your opponent, and just Wish for the appropriate solution. This way you don't have to counter every threat, and can use Wish to gain card advantage with things like Rack and Ruin, Lava Dart, etc.

[jpmeyer]

The only green cards that matter are Berserk and Artifact Mutation, and since Mutation can be more or less replaced by Rack and Ruin so really the only problem is that now you just need to devote a few more sideboard slots to creature removal or something.

[DavidHernandez]

You guys are literally out of your minds.

Come on Jaco. What do you really think?

I'm starting to think that Tog for the current environment could drop green and go with UBw for Disenchant, STP, Serenity, Dismantling Blow, and Tempest of Light.

Honestly, except for Berserk, how much green is there that might not be better as white?

Dave.

[Godot]

Have any of you guys actually tested the Italians UBR T1Tog deck

Yes, I have played around with that build.  I really was not a fan of the 4th Cunning Wish.  It showed up too early, too often for my tastes.  Also, Fling does not give you the ability to win games out of nowhere like Berserk does.  I did, however, love Engineered Explosives.  If I could have its babies I totally would.  This card is cheap enough to handle early threats and versatile enough to be used late game as well.

Lava Dart is also better against Goblin Welder than anything green has, and please don't even mention that bullshit about Ground Seal

Unlike Lava Dart, Ground Seal also shores up other tough matchups like Dragon--and as an additional bonus, is strong against CA too.  If I wanna kill Welders then I'll just use EE, which can be used to stunt their development in other ways if a Welder isnt around--not to mention answering Chalices.  EE doesnt have the 'uncounterability' aspect of Lava Dart, but its much more versatile--a tradeoff Im willing to take.

Red Elemental Blast is good against half the field

REB isnt bad there are just better options, and you already run 4x Duress which serve basically the same function as REB, just proactive.  In any control matchup(aside from the mirror) the maindeck is already so strong that nearly anything you take out to fit in REBs will likely be stronger in that matchup than the REB.  If you're just running 1 REB in the SB then thats hardly an arguement for the inclusion of red.

Godot, I don't really understand how you can defend the arguement for duress so well because in your own tourny report you stated how well you did until you got paired up against workshop, where you admit to having lost very badly each time it came your way.

Actually, I went 1-2 against workshop but thats beside the point.  The only play I really fear from Workshop is first turn trinisphere.  You can typically fight back against any other T1 play, but if you dont stop 3sphere they get 2 more turns to goldfish.  Lets see how these two options stack up against stopping first turn trinisphere:

Going 1st -
  Duress - Stops 3sphere; 40% chance of having this turn 1; doesnt stop topdecked 3sphere
  Mana Leak - Stops 3sphere, tempo gain; ~17% chance of having this turn 1

Going 2nd - both equally worhtless

Considering that Im over twice as likely to have turn 1 Duress vs turn 1 Mana Leak that gives the edge to Duress in my book.

Also, as I mentioned earlier and Z just mentioned, Duress is a huge, HUGE beating against combo, something you seem to be overlooking.  When Im playing combo Tog is the one control deck I truly fear playing against, and thats solely because of Duress.

The reason why I don't really like red very much is because the loss of berserk really hurts the aggro match ups. True, there is fling

Just wanted to completely agree with you here.  Berserk is huge.  I only use it to kill, maybe 50% of the time, but the huge majority of the times I do win with Berserk I would not have been able to win with Fling.  Random chump blockers and good aggro, like madness, make Berserk necessary.

Ultima, I'd still like to hear about y'alls experiences with Merchant Scroll.

[Revvik]

Nevermind that red has ZERO replacements for the can-tripping Ground Seal, and fewer ways to deal with problem enchantments - Naturalize is still pretty effective.
Firestorm is wonderful and all, but Deed is resistant to blasts (I've seen Blue Blasts before :shock: ) and handles everything.

[Morgorth]

yes....come to the darkside of the UBW tog  

honestly I played UBW for a couple months and it does wonders.  Putting 3 Meddling Mages in sideboard where in UBR 2 or 3 Flametongues should be is great honestly.  Same can be said for Orim's Chant, Disenchant, Abeyance, and the works can just shut down Combo decks in the format and be hell against mirror matchups and even other control.  Previously stated I currently run 4c tog atm and it is just ok, with UBR you can drop the 4th color run with UBR and have more room for basic lands and just run Blood Moon instead of B2B.  Either 3 color tog you go with it is pretty good in the current Meta.

[Dante]

Nevermind that red has ZERO replacements for the can-tripping Ground Seal, and fewer ways to deal with problem enchantments - Naturalize is still pretty effective.

Engineered Explosives handles enchantments pretty well and is colorless.

[AggressiveDude]

According to this Thread Mana Leak and Duress are both extremly usefull in the current Environment.

Then I started making a Decklist.I don´t saw any reason to include Green because I think that Tog really doesn´t need to Berserk that often anymore.What kind of Aggro Decks are there?

Red seemed more Important to me due the Fact that REB absolutely rocks.

 
After I read JP´s post about the Mana Base I included this following Mana Base:

5 Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Libary of Alexandria
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Saphire
1 Mox Perl
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring

This Mana based worked out quite smooth for me but I did not test that much.However I decided to cut the Wastelands because they already mana other MD answers to Workshop.dec.

Also if you ask me I would run following Counter Base:
4 Duress
4 Mana Leak
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

With that many counters a Tog Deck should be able to deal with many control and combo decks in the format.
Misdirection may be better against various decks but Mana Leak is just good against almost anything.
With all that Oath and Slaver running around you should outrace them In counter wars.

With the Inclusion of Mana Leak I just decided to cut the most cutable cards in the Deck:
First of all I reduced the number of Deep Analyses because I already should have a favorable Machup against Combo.
Then I cut Merchants Scroll and Mystical Tutor.Some of you will say that at least one of these Tutors should be a auto inclusion but I just think that tog draws like hell and instead of the Tutors I just throw a Vampiric in the SB.
Maybe it was not the correct choice but for me Dures is more important than those tutors.

Now lets get to the SB here is the SB that I would run:

1 Diabolic Edict
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Fact or Fiction
3 Rack and Ruin
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Fling
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Stifle
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fire/Ice


Card Choices:
1 Diabolic Edict:This seemed like obvious to me because smother is not that good anymore and Diabolic is great killing Welders as well.
3 Red Elemental Blast:With all the Oath and Drain Slaver around..
Fact or Fiction:Some draw in the Side is needed I think.
3 Rack n Ruin:Without Deed and Mutation I wanted a replacement and so I added some extra Rack n Ruins because in multiples they improve your WS machtup a lot.
1 Vampiric:Without all the Tutors this is a must.
1 Fling:Allthough I wish rarely for Fling sometimes it is the Card I need against Scrub.dec
2 Blue Elemental Blast:Maybe 3 copies would be better because Dragon is on the rise again and welders are everywhere.
1 Stifle:Of course this is against Combo and sometimes even Smokestack but it is not the Card it used to be anymore..
1 Echoing Truth:Oath and Random.dec
1 Fire/Ice:Welder and Aggro



just my 02 cents

[Ultima]

[quote="Jaco"
Going 1st -
  Duress - Stops 3sphere; 40% chance of having this turn 1; doesnt stop topdecked 3sphere
  Mana Leak - Stops 3sphere, tempo gain; ~17% chance of having this turn 1

Going 2nd - both equally worhtless

I think that your not really looking at the bigger picture here.  When you're playing duress, your only contending with first INITIAL threat to your game.  Sure, you can duress out the first turn trinisphere but that doesn't stop your opponent's oncoming wastelands and crucibles.  This usually slows you down long enough for your opponents fatties or prison parts to lock you down while his welders negate all your answers.

Again, mana leak keeps the ball in your court for above stated reasons.  And i do really do disagree with the statement that outside of a turn 1 trinisphere, tog can handle everyting else that comes down.  There are tons of plays workshop has that tog will have trouble with besides trinisphere which is why its so important that you keep your lands basic and counters up.  If tog had it that easy, it would be tier 1 again, but its not.

As far as mechant scroll is concerned, I playing a merchant scroll in the MD as a 3rd tutor for intuition or wish because you have to access to these in the early game to survive in the current metagame.  Leak also gives you alot of flexability in playing spells like scroll and demonic tutor since you don't need UU up all the time anymore against certain match ups.