[Discussion] Adapting Tog to win in this metagame.

[Covetous]

I seem to recall that Oath decks run 3-5 strip effects (probably more like 5 now).  Do you really think that your LoA will live a long and happy life under those circumstances?  Against Control Slaver, I don't think running LoA is the difference between winning and losing.  I think stability versus the field is more important than running a singleton that might possibly help in one or two matchups yet can hurt you against other matches.  This deck really needs blue, and really needs basics for stability.  Non-blue, non-basic lands aren't going to help you with this.  

If you run wastes, run strip.  If you don't run wastes, don't run strip.  This is for the same reason as not running LoA.  I'm not sure what running strip effects would accomplish for this deck in terms of strategy.  Sure, they can give you an out against Maze of Ith, not that I see that very often with fish on the downswing (plus fire/ice can save you if necessary).  I personally favor a deck with all blue-based lands and 6 or 7 basics.  Against workshop.dec, you need to be able to get out from under turn 1/2 trinisphere ASAP which requires lands which can't be stripped.  I can't believe I'm actually going against running LoA in Tog, but the meta isn't right for it with so many wastes attacking your lands.

[Revvik]

I'm not even going to discuss the Library's traditionally held merits of breaking control mirrors wide open (especially important now that everyone and his mother is running Accumulated Knowledge).

If you feel that it is unnecessary, then don't run it.  However, it has won me countless games against Control Slaver, so I would not cut it until a functionally identical equivalent of Wasteland was reprinted (besides, mine is signed by Garfield   )

Strip Mine - When the clock is ticking on your life total and you can't answer a Maze of Ith (jank, but I have too much pride to lose to these things), then you'll wish you maindecked one.

It is NOT a denial tool - it is an answer to a threat, a solution to a problem.

[Smmenen]

Fire/ice also answers maze, better since you can stop multiple with just one Fire/ice using Wishes to regrowth them and yawg Willl.

[Revvik]

Wouldn't have thought of that myself, but it is a good answer.  I still can't see myself losing the Strip Mine, and maybe I'm wrong for it.  But I can't help but see that the potential for winning even one tournament game due to a first turn Strip taking out an only land, or even so much as nuking a wasteland to protect your own manabase.

Smmenen (smemenmnenm?): since you're on this topic for the moment, what are your thoughts towards Library of Alexandria in today's field?  I personally love the thing, I even ran it in my old U/R Fish build and there is no denying that Library won me games then and now.

[Ultima]

I cut Library such a long time ago.  The bottom line is its just too slow and isn't blue or basic.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

As far as library goes, I see no purpose for it. It's slow and is only good vs. your best matchup - control. The AK argument doesn't hold, because you could simply go intuition--->2 Deeps and a duress and force the opponent to crack and start using their AKs. Speaking from experience, other than the mirror matchup (and to some extent Goth slaver), I've never had a hard time winning the AK wars vs. other control decks.

As far as the board goes, what's everyone running? Tog is a SB deck, so it's pretty important to have a good SB. I'm currently running:

1 Berserk
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
4 REB
1 BEB
1 Coffin Purge
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Fire/Ice (or lava dart)
1 Snuff out

Also, what additional draw should you run to complement AK? I saw Smmenen had Gush, Scrying, and Fact main, where I still have Gush and 2 deeps. Which is better? I've always liked fact in the bord to wish for, and deep is never dead in any matchup.

-Bob

[Revvik]

When I make the changeover to 4 color (tomorrow - no work), this is probably what I'll include:

Vampiric Tutor
Fact or Fiction
2 Rack & Ruin
Coffin Purge
Ghastly Demise
Berserk
Fire / Ice
3 Ground Seal
Pernicious Deed
3 Red Elemental Blast

Having had little experience with a four-color build, this is bound to change over the next few weeks as I get ready for Type 1's first quasi-Pro Tour.  I'm still looking to find room for Artifact Mutation, plus any comments people who've played with this more than me have.  For the record, my old sideboard:

Vampiric Tutor
Snuff Out
Ghastly Demise
Coffin Purge
Duress
Gush
Echoing Truth
Berserk
Oxidize
Naturalize
2 Back to Basics
3 Ground Seal

I've had a lot of faith in this configuration, although before this thread, I was thinking of ditching both Back to Basics for something a little more... useful.  Any comments?  Am I missing out on any recently discovered powerful Wish targets / sideboard strategies for today's metagame?

[Ultima]

My current SB is

1 Berserk
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Lava Dart
1 Gush
1 Naturalize
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Back to Basics
2 Arcane Laboratory
2 Ground Seal
2 Red Elemental Blast

This SB is very tuned towards an ideal metagame of Workshop, Oath, Fish, Combo, and Slaver.  The only thing I wish I had there would be an echoing truth for oath's creatures game 1 or the random tinker into colossus trick.  

My current build's main has the same standard draw as tog with the FOF main as well.  The reason why SB looks like that also is because I play 2 EE in the MD as well.

[Sean Ryan]

Good discussion.

I think returning to the full 4c version of Tog is a mistake.  However, running one Tropical for the that one amazing green card in your SB is worth the trouble.  

I am in almost full agreement with the Italion build except for a few differences.

One is the posibility I mentioned above, of running the lone Trop & Berserk.  I also think the 4th Cunning Wish should be replaced with something like Gush.  Of course the sideboard is also a huge contention.

Here is my proposed mana base:
7 SoLoMoxen
1 LOA
3 Islands
4 Sea
3 Volcanic
1 Trop
5 Fetch

Side Board:

1 Berserk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Fire/Ice
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Coffin Purge
2 Rack & Ruin
1 Hurkyls Recall
1 Rushing River
1 Hydroblast
3 Pyroblast

As far as suplemental draw is concerned, Deep Analysis & Gush are a must if you are expecting the mirror.  Wow, this is starting to feel like deja vu.  Only 5/3 keeps the Fishies away.  If the the lone Trop for Berserk becomes problematic than its either straight U/b/r with Fling or scrap Tog all together.  

On a side topic, the successful resurgence of Tog may have more to do with how much combo is around than anything else.  Looking at the Italion/European metagame where TPS is a standard is what has brought Tog back into the spotlight.  Can this hold true in the combo light U.S. metagame where 5/3 eclipses standard prison?

Sean

[Milton]

Infinite life is irrelevant.  Please don't reduce this topic to something I'd file away in the newbie forum.  Keep your posts on topic and relevant.
- Kowal[/color]

[Revvik]

5/3 is more winnable than Stax.  Stax doesn't always lay down lock components that are difficult to win under.  A single Rack & Ruin shuts down both decks long enough to open a window to success - the window is just much easier to achieve against 5/3.

scryan0079: the four-color "Hulk" builds have an even better weapon that Rack & Ruin: Artifact Mutation.  It instantly nukes a lock component, ups your permanent count for Tangle Wire and Smokestack, and serves as a path to victory.  It's only downside is that it requires the fetching out of two precious duals (against a deck running Crucible of Worlds, no less)

[Sean Ryan]

@Revvik,

Artifact Mutation - yes this is usually game over against Stax/Mud, but what it requires from your manabase (& using the 4c builds with both red and green utility cards in general ) is not acceptable in a metagame that is being defined by Crucible/Waste/Trinisphere.  As you stated Rack & Ruin is usually enough to break out of a lock or releive enough pressure to win.

In my experience Tog builds with strong manabases and strong players have not been an easey match for either 5/3 or straight prison.  Sure, prison can explode with brokenness but it also fizzles easier than 5/3 which doesn't need complete board control to win.  Regardless, its Togs manabase that is the biggest issue.  To realistically cast  Artifact Mutation you will need to have already found 2 basic islands and keep the fetches around (or nonbasics in hand) until you are ready to actually break out of the lock/beat down.  It might not be problematic the majority of the time but when it does become significant in a large high powered tournment where you are bound to face many Workshop decks.  Thats a gamble I don't want to take.  

Sean

[Outlaw]

I have been recently working on a tog list, and like to see what ya'll thought about it.  

First off the mana base

-=I pay for tog=- 24
6x Fetches
4x Islands
3x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Library of Alexandria (this is the questionable slot)
7x SoLoMox

-=I savea tog=- 14
4x Mana Drain
4x Force of Will
3x Duress
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Cunning Wish

-=I feeda tog=- 11
1x Gush
3x Intution
4x Accumulated Knowledge
2x Deep Analysis
1x Ancestral Recall

-=I finda tog=- 6
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
4x Brainstorm

-=I ama tog=- 3
3x Psychatog

-=I buffa tog=- 2
1x Time Walk
1x Yawgmoth's Will

Thats the list I am currently working on, now heres my next question.. How bad of a matchup is Stax and Oath for Tog?  Where I am going is, is Eon Hub a possible sideboard answer, it does cost 5 but with drain mana thats easily comprehenable.  

-=Sideboard-a-tog=- 15
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Rack and Ruin
1x Ghastly Demise
1x Fire/Ice
1x Berserk
1x Coffin Purge
1x Hurkyll's Recall
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Deep Analysis
2x Eon Hub? (this would become more utility such as blue elemental blast, lava dart, or perhaps echoing truth?)

The reason for this list being posted is the proposed use of engineered explosives and the single tropical island -> berserk.  Also to find an substitute for LoA if it really isnt needed.

[Smmenen]

Wouldn't have thought of that myself, but it is a good answer.  I still can't see myself losing the Strip Mine, and maybe I'm wrong for it.  But I can't help but see that the potential for winning even one tournament game due to a first turn Strip taking out an only land, or even so much as nuking a wasteland to protect your own manabase.

Smmenen (smemenmnenm?): since you're on this topic for the moment, what are your thoughts towards Library of Alexandria in today's field?  I personally love the thing, I even ran it in my old U/R Fish build and there is no denying that Library won me games then and now.

You must use LOA.  You will play Control matches, and LOA is the best card you can draw in a control mirror.

[jeremy_78]

Instead of running LoA you could run a 3rd volcanic island.  With a lot of erd you might want an extra red source around.  I was playing with a deck similar to this in a tournament.  Your choice is this basically, you can have the Library for control matchups or you can have the one tropical for berserk, which I feel is a far better kill card than fling.  I feel that you want to keep the number of non-fetch nonbasic lands to 6-7.  The other question you have to ask yourself is how powered is your metagame.  I won a mox with a UBg build, but I only saw one workshop deck, which I played two times.  I feel that the UBr version, which my teamate recently played and won a mox with is far superior in a workshop laden environment.  I continue to play with green because I SUCK with the superior UBr version.  I tried the splash version that you have and it seems that the lone tropical gets drawn way to often.  You ll probably find that you ll want to play at least three cunning wishes, maybe even four as my teamate plays.  I am currently working on UBg version of tog that runs more draw and its purpose to drop tog early, and kill fast.

[Revvik]

You must use LOA.  You will play Control matches, and LOA is the best card you can draw in a control mirror.

Thank you.  I half-expected to be wrong here  :lol:

A fast, killing, heavy-draw UBg list?  Check my previous three-color list, it serves both that function AND plays the long control game very nicely.

Extra Red Sources: Two Volcanics and a Ruby should fit the bill fairly well.  Unless you draw poorly, you're only pulling out Volcanics when you need to Wish for a red answer - otherwise, you're exposing your resources unnecessarily to Wasteland/Strip Mine.  

It is also possible to get away with running a lone Tropical - though running two would be more ideal, since it negates the drawback of drawing it early against decks packing Wasteland.  Also, more than one non-artifact green source allows for greater diversity in Wish targets (Artifact Mutation, Naturalize, etc.) and helps support Pernicious Deed (You may or may not want to run this, I feel it is another necessity).

2x Cunning Wish

-=I feeda tog=- 11
1x Gush
3x Intution

Wouldn't it serve you better to run 3 Wishes and 2 Intuitions?  If you don't have to tutor up a Cunning Wish, you are in a better position to answer threats quicker, while Mystical/Demonic can help kickstart the Intuition/AK engine (if they have nothing better to do)

[thecapn]

6x Fetches
4x Islands
3x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Library of Alexandria (this is the questionable slot)
7x SoLoMox

    This is my current mana base, except I run 3 Islands and 1 Swamp.  I prefer 1 trop because you never want to see it until you're about to win or like against $T4KS when you're planning to Artifact Mutation.  I feel like the 6th fetch justifies two Volcanic Islands, and allows you to always fetch basics in the early game and not worry about whether you're going to be able to find Volc or Trop in the mid-late game.  Also, I love basic lands and hate dual lands, so I always try to run the minimum.

I haven't tested Tog vs. Oath, but my plan would be the same as with Goth Slaver (which I have played and tested vs. Oath extensively).  Play smart control in the early game - keeping Oath off the Board, and then outdraw them in the midgame and once you've outdrawn them just win.

I have never ever feared $T4KS playing Tog.

[onelovemachine]

Lots of things have been discussed I would like to comment on.

First, berserk vs. fling.  I don't think the two should be compared in the way that they are here.  If you insist on playing three colors red you lose the ability to straight up double psychatog's power and win quickly.  Fling can simulate doing that but in the end they are not the same.  An obnoxious guy like pentavus will really piss you off when fling doesn't give tog trample.  Winning at instant speed is completely irrelevant.  If the italian guy won in response to will than he had the ability to win the whole time and nothing his opponent could do was going to stop him.  Flings sole use in my opinion is making maze irrelevant.  Since tog can usually deal with that anyways...

Secondly I had to comment on this:

I have never ever feared $T4KS playing Tog.

If you have no fear of stax playing tog than you are either a fool or you never played against good stax players.  I think that of the shop based decks stax is harder to win against by far than 5/3 and slightly harder than 7/10 neither of which are cakewalks.  

5/3 is more winnable than Stax. Stax doesn't always lay down lock components that are difficult to win under. A single Rack & Ruin shuts down both decks long enough to open a window to success - the window is just much easier to achieve against 5/3.

scryan0079: the four-color "Hulk" builds have an even better weapon that Rack & Ruin: Artifact Mutation. It instantly nukes a lock component, ups your permanent count for Tangle Wire and Smokestack, and serves as a path to victory. It's only downside is that it requires the fetching out of two precious duals (against a deck running Crucible of Worlds, no less)

Five three is more winnable; however, stax entire goal is to lay down lock component after lock component that make the game very difficult to unwinnable.  Rack and ruin is gold but I am reconsidering its usefulness for the same reason I don't play mutation.  Mutation requires you to have both red and green mana (from duals usually) and while its possible to have two fetches sit there for the opportune moment, those fetches will more likely be used to find basics so that UU can be accomplished before a complete lock is.  I found rack and ruin to be easier on the manabase and to be just as much a bomb.  But rack and ruin can fail based on mana for the same  reasons.  Here's a random manabase from the forum.
6x Fetches
4x Islands
3x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Library of Alexandria (this is the questionable slot)
7x SoLoMox
supporting this sideboard:
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Rack and Ruin
1x Ghastly Demise
1x Fire/Ice
1x Berserk
1x Coffin Purge
1x Hurkyll's Recall
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Deep Analysis
2x Eon Hub?
This manabase has the most basics of any suggested, six fetches but it relies on rack and ruin to beat up on shops. rack and ruin is basically cast through volcanic island even if volcanic island is getting fetched out.  But what if we used three of our six fetches in the early game to get island to cast blue things like manadrain with? Now we have drastically fewer ways to get the red mana only three of which aren't wasteable.  I'm sure I don't have a flawless answer to "what then, if rack and ruin and mutation both suck" but I do know that not fearing stax is a mistake.

Third, on Library:

I cut Library such a long time ago. The bottom line is its just too slow and isn't blue or basic.

I think the rationale on library being too slow isn't very good.  The blistering speed of the format currently may make someone say that, but library is good because it is slow.  Control mirrors are slow too and library is unarguably an awesome power in a control mirror.  As far as a control mirror is concerned: tog enjoys control mirrors.  It typically has a stronger draw engine than its opposition.  Oath's draw engine can actually do it in while slaver's simply draws with fewer spells.  Tog doesn't need library to beat these decks but it sure can help.  The second part though, not blue or basic hits home.  Playing tog now must come with a strong respect for nonbasic hate.  If tog doesn't need library its an easy decision to let it go to make its not so easily winnable matchups better.

Edit: I forgot about deed vs. EE.  IMHO both suck.  Its not that they aren't good cards.  They have a sound purpose in the deck but neither are necessary.  Maindeck welder removal is something I have advocated for some time but deed is slow and unweildy to the mana and EE is not nearly as strong a card.  It is faster and if I had to play with one it would probably be EE.  As long as I'm only killing welders with explosives, and I don't plan on needing it for anything else, I might as well switch to fire/ice because it is arguably* more versatile and pitches or cycles at worst.

[Ultima]

Third, on Library:

I think the rationale on library being too slow isn't very good.  The blistering speed of the format currently may make someone say that, but library is good because it is slow.  Control mirrors are slow too and library is unarguably an awesome power in a control mirror.  As far as a control mirror is concerned: tog enjoys control mirrors.  It typically has a stronger draw engine than its opposition.  Oath's draw engine can actually do it in while slaver's simply draws with fewer spells.  Tog doesn't need library to beat these decks but it sure can help.  The second part though, not blue or basic hits home.  Playing tog now must come with a strong respect for nonbasic hate.  If tog doesn't need library its an easy decision to let it go to make its not so easily winnable matchups better.

Edit: I forgot about deed vs. EE.  IMHO both suck.  Its not that they aren't good cards.  They have a sound purpose in the deck but neither are necessary.  Maindeck welder removal is something I have advocated for some time but deed is slow and unweildy to the mana and EE is not nearly as strong a card.  It is faster and if I had to play with one it would probably be EE.  As long as I'm only killing welders with explosives, and I don't plan on needing it for anything else, I might as well switch to fire/ice because it is arguably* more versatile and pitches or cycles at worst.

I don't know about you, but Tog doesn't enjoy the Slaver control match, at all.  If tog lets up for one second against Slaver, then it loses and slaver arguably has a better draw engine than tog now because it houses 2 draw engines and MORE spells than tog.  The fact that Library is too slow is precisely why its not good in the control mirror because, welder control can get a slaver lock with no more than a single intuition now, Tog needs 2 for 1 answers and speed not the slow tempo that library gives.  You have to answer that welder NOW, not later after your opponent has already resolved an intuition for slaver, crucible, citadel, or crucible, strip.
You need to have the ability to wish-lava dart then be a turn or 2 late because of library drawing.

EE isn't just good because it can be faster than deed and kills welders.  Its good because it can kill Oath also and is more verstaile than both Deed and fire/ice.  EE is a way better card in this format than Deed now.

[Negator13]

In my opinion, LoA is worse than it ever was right now. I think this is because there are no true Control decks in the format at this time; only combo-control. Every "control deck" has a blisteringly fast, and if not fast, cheap and explosive, way to win; Tog has Tog, Oath has Oath, Slaver has the Welder lock. You can't sit around using LoA every turn, trying desperately to keep your hand at 7, because at any time the "control" deck you're playing against can just bust out their 1-2 card, low mana win condition and you'll be too far behind in tempo to deal with it.

Then of course there's the fact that LoA is nonbasic, which means in any non "control" matchup its going to be either useless or destroyed on the spot.

Therefore, I believe a basic island to be superior to LoA in Tog.

[Saucemaster]

If you have no fear of stax playing tog than you are either a fool or you never played against good stax players.

I'll go on record as saying that neither of these are the case.  I believe you were a little tone deaf to the hyperbole there, and the basic gist of thecapn's sentiment was valid.

[Rico Suave]

In the C.Slaver mirror, LoA is arguably the most back-breaking card you could play because they can't stop it.  C.Slaver can't stop Bazaar either, which is why Dragon has such a good game against it as well.  

T1 is broken, but the reason control decks are so fast is because of Mana Drain and an opposing control deck isn't going to walk into it.  This means the Tog vs. C.Slaver game plays out a little slower than against other archetypes, and that gives enough breathing room for LoA to shine.

I wouldn't really care about trying to use LoA against anything but the control mirror, but LoA is truly exceptional at beating other control decks.

[Revvik]

Running Library in 'Tog is akin to running Strip Mine in Control Slaver.
Both work at about the same speed - 1 card per turn, they just work to the opposite end.

Strip Mine deprives your opponent of one card (per turn with Crucible).
Library provides its user with one card (per turn, if a full hand is supported).

Saying that Library is too slow is like saying that Strip Mine is too slow - after all, it is only a one-card advantage that can only be used once per turn.  In a format that is degenerating into "AK for 5+", on the surface this appears to be the correct assumption.

What's really happening is this: Crucible/Strip in Control Slaver gives them another form of inevitability (besides the obvious 'No matter what, I will go off' that the deck naturally possesses) - they WILL run you out of lands.

Library in Psychatog offers an 'almost-inevitability:' "if I can support my Library with seven cards in hand, then I will always draw into what I need to either keep the pressure on you with counters, or combo out a win."

I have never ever feared $T4KS playing Tog.

I am a little lost as to everyone's interpretation of this statement (and Saucemaster's explanation - I'm on a lot of cough/cold syrup at the moment), but this is how I took it:

'Tog/Hulk Smash has a good matchup against $T4KS.

On paper, it looks kind of terrible, but that's the way it looks if you measure almost any deck against $T4KS without playing the match out.

In reality, 'Tog has several differently costed answers to Chalice of the Void, an excellent answer to any artifact threat played by $T4KS, enough basic lands to dodge Wasteland recursion, and isn't too badly affected by 3Sphere - a lot of its spells cost three anyways.
I think he's saying that although it's tough, it's not unfavorable.  Or should I lay off the medicine before posting?

[Saucemaster]

'Tog/Hulk Smash has a good matchup against $T4KS.

On paper, it looks kind of terrible, but that's the way it looks if you measure almost any deck against $T4KS without playing the match out.

In reality, 'Tog has several differently costed answers to Chalice of the Void, an excellent answer to any artifact threat played by $T4KS, enough basic lands to dodge Wasteland recursion, and isn't too badly affected by 3Sphere - a lot of its spells cost three anyways.
I think he's saying that although it's tough, it's not unfavorable.  Or should I lay off the medicine before posting?

No, actually, the medicine seems to be working fine.  What kind are you using?  I'm never that lucid on cold medicine.  I gotta get me some of that.

I'm not minimizing the threat Stax poses here--hell, I'm not even really in this thread--but there are much worse things to see across the table from you when you're with Tog.  The annoying thing about Stax is that the level of variance in the match is high, and while over the long run I think you're a favorite, matches against $T4KS are like matches against combo--sometimes they just blow you out of the water twice, and you're never really in it.  There's not much you can do about it one way or the other.  On the other hand, if you're on Stax and Tog Drains just about anything you play at almost any point in the game, you probably just lost.  You typically have at most two turns to do anything relevant, and past that the game has usually slipped out of your grasp.

[Revvik]

No, actually, the medicine seems to be working fine.  What kind are you using?  I'm never that lucid on cold medicine.  I gotta get me some of that.

Robitussin, but (surprise) I can't for the life of me remember which type, and I seem to have, erm, misplaced the bottle.  At least it wasn't non-drowsy Sudafed - if I take any amount of that, I need to make sure my schedule for the rest of the day is clear.  I'm probably the only person in the world who can get that chemically unbalanced off a "safe" drug.

You did bring up a point I forgot - Mana Drain is lovely against a deck featuring high casting cost artifacts.  Now I think I'm going to go watch Mean Girls on mute now, with George Clinton playing where the sound should be.

[Ultima]

From my experience with Tog and Stax, it usually comes down to a very simple thing.  If the stax player can throw down 1-2 lock parts on turn one then 2, they'll usually win even through force of will.  If though the stax player has a slow opening like trinisphere or wire on turns 2-3 then they'll probably lose.  It really comes down to who goes first and what the hand is for the stax player or rather how soon they can start dropping down locks.

Again as far as Library, my opinion is clear.  However, the anaolgy between strip in Slaver and Library in Tog are totally different.  Crucible/Strip can break just about every deck of almost every archetype but library is only useful in against Control and even then, only certain decks.  You could even say that its only good against 2 matchs, the tog mirror and control slaver since those are the only 2 decks that don't end as quickly anymore.  Its even garbage against Oath since oath can win through 1 spell.  

The statement that this format is going into the huge ak wars is true but library is still not optimal because library means your 1 turn behind your opponent in blue and control isn't about outdrawing someone anymore.  Its true that if you outdraw your opponent, there's a good chance you'll win, but with slaver's and oath's ability to just win, outdrawing your opponent couldn't be further from the point now especially in tog since it now has the slowest win condition of all the viable control decks.  It used to be where your library would draw you more cards thereby making alot of threats irrelevant since you undoubtedly drew the answer.  Its just not like that now since your opponent can just go mox, orchard, oath with force or mis-d backup here or he can go land, welder then turn 2 intution, slaver-lock.  I can't tell you how many times in testing when I outdrew my opponent playing oath or slaver and he still won because all he needed to do was resolve one spell to win while I needed to draw cards, then resolve tog, then resolve wish with counter back-up.  Tog needs to be aggressive and flexible not slow and reactive.

[Rico Suave]

Its just not like that now since your opponent can just go mox, orchard, oath with force or mis-d backup here or he can go land, welder then turn 2 intution, slaver-lock.  

Those are certainly rare, and not the normally way these matches play out.  For every first turn Oath you'll see 2 games where there isn't one.  In the games where your opponent goes broken then no it may not help you, but what would a basic land do in those situations that LoA would not?  Maybe I'm missing something, but playing a dual or what have you isn't going to change the outcome in games you were never meant to win in the first place.

[Ultima]

The thing is, library still keeps you an extra turn away from UU which is what makes the difference.  Tog needs to be able to either do something nuts or counter something nuts on turn 1, otherwise it usually loses. You could have still won those games if you had drain or leak up instead of library.

[Revvik]

Why does everyone bring up drawing the Library early?  This confuses the hell out of me - it's restricted, therefore drawing it early should happen rarely, if at all.

Dammit, man.

Let's say you're playing against Oath (hell - ANY deck), and you've managed to make it to the midgame, and you've spent a couple of draw spells, maximized your hand size, and have 2 islands, a swamp, and a fetch, but are holding zero Wishes, AKs, Deeps, tutors, etc.  Three land, a Duress, Drain, and two other cards I don't feel like making up names for compose your hand.  Your opponent passes, and you draw... Library.  You just won, don't even play it out, because you now have the ability to replace any spent resource in hand, whether it be a counter to their threat or a threat itself.  

In fact, were it not FOR the Library, your hand would have slowly dwindled as your opponent drew out every counter in your hand, or won due to forcing through a lucky topdeck.  Library doubles the speed at which you draw through your deck, and that spells "WINNING"

Library shines in the midgame, and especially in the control mirror (duh).  I don't know why it is assumed on this thread that the Library would be played as early as possible.  OF COURSE you want Drain mana up.  OF COURSE you want basic lands first.  So why put the Library into play until you've survived to the point when you can maximize its effectiveness?

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

While I agree LoA can win you games vs. Slaver, I simply don't think that 1 matchup justifies it's spot in the MD.

YES you are right when you say you shouldn't draw LoA early...but what happens if you do? It contributes very little in the early game (you will be expending your resources) and tog shines in the Mid-game/late-game. If you take a look at all the hard matchups, the only one that LoA truly helps is Slaver. Yes, most control decks are running AKs, but between duress/deep analysis, you win the AK mirrors handily.

Library shines in the midgame, and especially in the control mirror (duh). I don't know why it is assumed on this thread that the Library would be played as early as possible. OF COURSE you want Drain mana up. OF COURSE you want basic lands first. So why put the Library into play until you've survived to the point when you can maximize its effectiveness?

This doesn't make any sense to me. By the time you can maximize it's adavantage (according to you, after you survived), you should have already won. This sounds like the definition of a win more card.

If control is huge in your area, by all means run the card, but in an ideal metagame, I question it's merits. When decks are packing duress/wastes, running a land that doesn't produce U and is so conditional, makes little sense to me. Sittinng there doing nothing just to reach 7 cards in hand in the midgame seems pretty bad.

-Bob