[Discussion] Adapting Tog to win in this metagame.

[MaxxMatt]

In this thread seemed to came off from a while that there are a lot of opportunities for a Tog players to win AT NOW with ?some builds? .

You all discussed a lot about which colour would be better, which cards would be better, which things should be done, which strategies would be used.

I ( happily ) read about a lot of people saying ?modern & good things? about what they should have evidently tested but I ( sadly ) read too about a lot of people saying ?old & good things? about what they should have evidently done in the past but that might have be changed by the time.

It is self explanatory that this time some different people did ?modern good? things while working at an universally known deck characterized by Psycatog.

The strange thing is that this good results aren?t recognized ( excluding few people ) or considered so good as they evidently are for some reasons.


The point is (not flaming anyone):

What are we searching this time?

Are you searching for a good build that  won a lot recently with a good winning rate against different Tier1s or are you trying to fit Green in that deck without recognizing that is a ?so-so? work this time AND in that metagame?

If your answer is the first, then you should stop searching and you could easily look at the great number of good results that the UBr-T1Tog version offered to you.

I?m not talking about ?tests, home-results or team-tests? about an XYZ-Deck-With-Tog done by a dozen of stupid people in some unknown city of the Europe?

I?m referring about a deck ? that properly tuned and played ? have been able to Top8 and win almost every time some good player choose to play with it.
The astonishingly thing is that THE NUMBER of people playing that deck didn?t count this time. It didn?t win because there are a lot of people playing it. It win because it is strong EVEN nowadays. It is all about quality

I saw this deck winning all around the Europe ( and some times even in America ) since ( at least ) the last summer, nearly untouched, nearly unplayed.

Why?

My real ask at this point is:
Is the real reason behind the lack of support toward this deck the high number of disappointing comments about it, came over until now by the major American T1 Magic Team?
Are they continually underestimating that deck ONLY because they materially didn?t do it and didn?t do well with it AT NOW as they did in the past?
Are they interested on ?an universal better deck?s development? or are they all about self-promoting their own decks and program metagame-shifts in order to be as much victorious as they can?


The UBr version is superior to the ones with green because of the results that he had in that metagame**** from months and it is superior to the 4c-version because of the better manabase stability.

**** That Metagame = Ug-Oath, Ubg-Oath, MUD-Monobrown, WelderMUD, 5/3, Control-Titan, MW-Slavery, C-Slavery, 3C-Dragon, 4C-Control, 3C-Control, 3C-Atogs, UB-TPS, FCG, UR-Stax, Penta-Stax, 3C-Affinity,UB-Mask-Naught,3C-C-Madness, 3C-Aggro-Madness and so on.


It is clear and simple.
IMHO, it is so simple to understand that I seem to myself a !!!fool!!! while writing those lines trying to legitimate self explanatory things.

On the other hand, why only JACO and a few others members seemed to realize that point supporting ?The-deck-with-an-Atog-inside? and not ?The-patriotic-approach-to-a-deck??

How many results and thread should be done until almost anyone of you, would recognize the value of that deck?
Have we have to wait one of the ( Always Good ) Smemmen or JP?s articles  to have ?all of you? convinced that the players of the UBr version aren?t foolish?

I subscribe any one of the things that JACO said in this thread.
He summarize all my feelings about that version and about what I would have said talking about UBr tog.

Of course, there are some little differences between the lists that he is referring and the last ones played by us, but the core is almost unaltered.

We had 3 UBr-Tog players in our last ?151 players? Top8 in Massa-Carrara. I?m writing something about it so I?ll demand any asks in my ?coming-soon? thread about them.

I?m not talking about ?Tests?
I?m talking about ?Results?

:->

Maxx

[Revvik]

If you want to talk "results," I've been running a UB/g version that has repeatedly pulled off wins against stax, transmute, oath, drain slaver, and other popular choices of the day.

The list I run is pretty non-intuitive.  I only include 2 copies each of Cunning Wish and Intuition, and two maindeck Pernicious Deeds.

One reason is the different draw engine.  Since 'Tog is no longer the only deck to run Intuition/Accumulated Knowledge, I can no longer safely rely on it.  Therefore, the main deck consists of 3 Deep Analysis.  Although a massive Drain target, it allows for a better game without letting other decks capitalize on Accumulated Knowledges.

2 Cunning Wishes - weaker utility, but what can I say, I draw them when I need them.  One for answers, one for Berserk.

The two Pernicious Deeds are great against Control Slaver - annihilates both the Welder and any potential welding targets, save for Darksteel Citadel.

Despite my love for this deck and how well it works for me, that's just it - it works for ME.  I can't really recommend others play my version without tweaking it to fit their playstyle.

[God_Campbell]

Well deep anal is a good choice, I am just not so sure you should adandon ak so easily, it has always been the heart of a tog deck and to just remove it is like removing tog himself.
but my bias aside how about you post a deck list so we can see what you are talking about?

[Revvik]

I am just not so sure you should adandon ak

It's not abandoning AK - it's having a backup plan so that you aren't forced to play the first AK.  Has no one heard of the terrible curse?  Whoever plays the first AK loses - plain and simple  :lol:

3 Psychatog

2 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
3 Deep Analysis
Ancestral Recall

Demonic Tutor
Mystical Tutor
2 Cunning Wish

Time Walk
Yawgmoth's Will
2 Pernicious Deed

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Duress

4 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
Library of Alexandria
3 Wasteland
Strip Mine

Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Sapphire
Sol Ring
Black Lotus

Sideboard:
Vampiric Tutor
Snuff Out
Ghastly Demise
Coffin Purge
Duress
Echoing Truth
Gush
Berserk
Naturalize
Oxidize
2 Back to Basics
3 Ground Seal

A) I'm finding myself using Back to Basics primarily against 4CC, which tends to be my easiest matchup next to type 2 R/G <snicker>, so I'll probably be dropping them in favor of better utility, or Energy Flux to improve my abysmal $T4KS matchup.
B) There are some interesting sideboard cards here - Ghastly Demise and Snuff Out.  This deck takes a lot of life loss from fetching, Deep Analysis, and Forcing.  Snuff Out has never been dangerous despite this, but a lot of people playing against me question the severe tax on my life.  Snuff Out also comes online faster against huge creatures that could potentially race the 'Tog (hardcast Juggernaut mixed with a Sundering Titan welded in?  Snuff Out can help equalize the playing field)

Like I said before though - this deck isn't for everyone.  It's topdecked me into a lot of wins, but I've seen a lot of people unable to pull off wins, due to a lack of 'business'.

[Negator13]

Actually, when playing the AK "mirror" with Goth Slaver/Tog/Oath/what have you, I usually bait my opponent by playing a single AK near the beginning of the game. Then I go about my merry way doing business as usual until they finally crack and play another, at which time I explode with accumulated,    accumulated knowledges.

Then I go ahead and board out 2 AK's.  

[Revvik]

Control Slaver is usually at best difficult to topple, since a properly timed Mindslaver activation can ruin your day.
Against them, I often side out all four AKs, bringing in the extra Duress, and three Ground Seals.
Game One, Deep Analysis shines!  Not having reliance on Accumulated Knowledge puts more pressure on them, since Thirsts aren't more advantageous card draw.

[God_Campbell]

Alright sorry I just misread your post and thought you were dropping ak, my bad.
But I do like the list, by the way thanks for posting and ya b2b is not really needed in post boards these days flux is better off.

[MaxxMatt]

If you want to talk "results," I've been running a UB/g version that has repeatedly pulled off wins against stax, transmute, oath, drain slaver, and other popular choices of the day.

The list I run is pretty non-intuitive.  I only include 2 copies each of Cunning Wish and Intuition, and two maindeck Pernicious Deeds.

I read the first quote being a bit astonished by the results against.
On the other hand the second quote clarify a lot more WHY you won.
Deed could be HUGE against all the decks you referred to.
They all need some permanents on board in order to win, so Deed is the perfect reset to all of them.

IMHO, Deed should be the only reason to play green in a deck such as Tog.

While I told you that the UBr-Tog is more competitive than the UBg-Tog, I was referring to decks and lists that didn't win a lot because of the presence of 1x1 cards among their solutions.

While WHEN maindecking Deeds is the real debate, I think for sure that playing green without them is the wrong choice.

If your metagame needs Deeds to let your Tog win again, I'm sure that they are the correct choice to do.

On the other hand, I would like to underline that if you would change some color's configuration for any reasons AND you are afraid for the Deed's loss, I would recommend you to try E.E. because they cando a similar work in almost any real-life games.

Why the list should be considered non-intuitive?
It is almost the Tog build used in the "Tog-Era" with a good attention put on "AK's-Mirrors".

The list seemed to me more resembling the Old-Style-Tog rather then trying something better or at least different.

I don't really like your mana rate of the green in your deck and the total number of Fetchlands and Tropical. With 2 Deeds and 6 Green cards to side in, I think that you should considering adding more Fetchlands OR adding at least another Tropical OR both of the things taking out the Wastelands.


I really like the possible denial plan of the deck. But my question is. Is it really needed playing this deck? Could be the game decided by different consistency choices rather than adding lands removals to a deck that need only card's drawings to win?

One reason is the different draw engine.  Since 'Tog is no longer the only deck to run Intuition/Accumulated Knowledge, I can no longer safely rely on it.  Therefore, the main deck consists of 3 Deep Analysis.  Although a massive Drain target, it allows for a better game without letting other decks capitalize on Accumulated Knowledges.

I'm totally with you about this issue.
You choice of Intuitioning for 3XDeep and mine of Intuitioning for 2XDeep and a Duress are almost based on the same reasoning: With Deeps,  you can draw the same amount of cards but you would draw them a bit slowly. Playing almost against different but AK-Based Control decks is the only real point to play them instead of Thirst for Knowledge ( supposing to play a Tog with a lot of Aritfacts )

2 Cunning Wishes - weaker utility, but what can I say, I draw them when I need them.  One for answers, one for Berserk.

Playing less accelerations and relying on a fewer amount of Fetchlands weakens a bit you in the Artifact.dec matchup. So you add more Deeds to at least try to cover this Cons of your configuration.

I'm sure that if you would have access to a larger spread of artifact accelerations you would appreciate a lot more the value of Cunning Wishes. In your configuration, I suppose that 2 ( or 3 if you want to be sure of being able to Berserk out your opponent ) is a correct number.

A) I'm finding myself using Back to Basics primarily against 4CC, which tends to be my easiest matchup next to type 2 R/G <snicker>, so I'll probably be dropping them in favor of better utility, or Energy Flux to improve my abysmal $T4KS matchup.

While reading your list, I' would have thought about BtBs being used almost for Welder.decs and Dragon.decs. Why using them for a matchup against which you are over 60-70% anyway? ( And I'm playing "4C-C-Keeper" for a long time so I perfectly know how frustrating is playing vs. a Tog.dec

about the AK's Issue
...Then I go ahead and board out 2 AK's.

To Revvik
This words underline an inherent weakness of playing less Wishes than three.
If you are going to play less Wishes, you can't play "the tricky game-plan"
suggested by Negator. While you can rely on Deeps, you should take into account that a lot of "AK.decs" had a similar "drawing backup plan" as you have. By the way, being unable to Wish whenever you need for some drawers in side, could be deadly against a well equipped opponent.

In my metagame NO-DECK play only AKs as drawing engine. Wherever they can, they add TFK or Deeps or Skeletals or FoF+Gush to their decks, not to be fucked in the mirrors. And there are these "laws" among them since Tog came off.



@C-Slaver

In the C-Slaver matchup is really faster playing with an accelerated deck with a full set of protections and a full set of Wishes rather than playing with a deck with a lot of Atogs, Deeds and Strips. Your Deed is one shot and not reusable as the  Wishable istants, Tog is your autolose and Strips are almost unused because of opponent's basics, citatedels and strips.

I could be wrong, but having your configuration preclude a lot of winnings during game 1, while you would lose more game 2 and 3 because of the lack of Red, despite the high number of Deeps.

Take into account, that he had an engine fast enough to be considered closer to yours while you lack the Red to counterbalance their ReBs.

[Revvik]

While I told you that the UBr-Tog is more competitive than the UBg-Tog, I was referring to decks and lists that didn't win a lot because of the presence of 1x1 cards among their solutions.

Do you mean wishable targets, or maindeck answers?  I feel that anything run as a singleton answer is a liability, which is why I upped the count of Pernicious Deed maindecked.  Lists with singletons look too unstable even on paper, and they always seem to fall apart under repeated pressure.

if you would change some color's configuration for any reasons AND you are afraid for the Deed's loss, I would recommend you to try E.E. because they cando a similar work in almost any real-life games.

I admit I did try E. Explosives in a UBr build a while back, and I didn't like it.  It didn't possess the same 'fire-and-forget' philosophy that Deed has.  Deed wrecks everything, while Explosives takes some, well, skill, to properly utilize.  And according to a lot of people who don't play in our format, we don't need skill  :lol:
All jokes aside, I do feel Deed is the best man for the job.  Not only does it handle every present threat, but it keeps the opponent from being able to play mind-games with you, like they could with Powder Keg.

Don't get me wrong - the Explosives is your best bet in any build that cuts green.  If I ever do, I'll maindeck two of those puppies.

The list is counter-intuitive because most people are astonished at the lower count of business spells like Intuition and Cunning Wish, and the high count of the situational Pernicious Deed (giving a 'Tog +1.5 / +1.5 is NEVER dead   ) and Deep Analysis.  Yet I consistently take this to a field of Control Slaver and Stax and do well (well, not AS well against Stax, but I've won my fair share).

I don't really like your mana rate of the green in your deck and the total number of Fetchlands and Tropical. With 2 Deeds and 6 Green cards to side in, I think that you should considering adding more Fetchlands OR adding at least another Tropical OR both of the things taking out the Wastelands.

I can understand the concern here.  Two tropicals and a mox emerald?  Those three cards have a lot of weight on their shoulders, what with being my sideboard cards and all.  I'm not sure how this works as well as it does, but I do know that with Fish no longer biting my ass whenever I turn around, I can be much more reserved about my fetching.  And if I ever reach the point where my Emerald is gone, and my Tropicals have been wasted?  Kill them with Gush.

Wasteland is another issue you mentioned.  I would only ever drop the three shiny, pretty, foily Wastelands in this deck for a fourth color.  Workshops are prevalent in my area, and to quote Smememnenem: Wasteland is a tactical card.  Tactical my ass, point that thing at the Workshop and watch them fight their own Trinisphere - Tog topdecks better than them any day.

I really like the possible denial plan of the deck. But my question is. Is it really needed playing this deck? Could be the game decided by different consistency choices rather than adding lands removals to a deck that need only card's drawings to win?

No, it is not needed at all.  I have lost games before to color-screw, but the frequency has not been high enough to warrant removing a very strong card to balance things out, and I enjoy the strategic use of Wasteland (ex-Fish player, sorry).
However, this list isn't set in stone, guy!    If you feel the need, take it, build it up and try the differences mentioned.  I know I will be, I have some leftovers from my build's old "unpretty" (unfoiled) days, and I'll be giving a few of these suggestions a try.

While reading your list, I' would have thought about BtBs being used almost for Welder.decs and Dragon.decs. Why using them for a matchup against which you are over 60-70% anyway? ( And I'm playing "4C-C-Keeper" for a long time so I perfectly know how frustrating is playing vs. a Tog.dec

As a funny aside, one of my matchups at the Star City Chicago side tournament was a guy playing Cerebral Assassin.  Nothing is funnier than watching him game one with all four of his Bazaars out and tapped down (I had the two maindecked and a third in the board at the time - vastly changed since then).  So yeah, I do use them for other decks, like those that try to "Titan-proof" their manabase.
I guess I deserved to lose that match after that (third game, the audience is quiet - except for my friends behind me, who are laughing their asses off because I shuffled up and drew 10 lands in a row after my opening hand).

about the AK's Issue
...Then I go ahead and board out 2 AK's.

To Revvik
This words underline an inherent weakness of playing less Wishes than three.
If you are going to play less Wishes, you can't play "the tricky game-plan"
suggested by Negator. While you can rely on Deeps, you should take into account that a lot of "AK.decs" had a similar "drawing backup plan" as you have. By the way, being unable to Wish whenever you need for some drawers in side, could be deadly against a well equipped opponent.

This only means I can't Wish for removed AKs.  I can, however, control the size and explosiveness of both my and their AKs with the 'Tog.

In my metagame NO-DECK play only AKs as drawing engine. Wherever they can, they add TFK or Deeps or Skeletals or FoF+Gush to their decks, not to be fucked in the mirrors. And there are these "laws" among them since Tog came off.

This is a given, for obvious reasons such as you stated.  But Deep Analysis tends to work better as a secondary draw engine than Thirst for Knowledge - better synergy with Intuition (tutorable!), and you don't discard valuable resources (in the case of artifact shortage).

Believe me, I would laugh long and hard at any deck that ran just the AK/Intuition draw engine.  

I am personally of the opinion that 'Tog needs to evolve back into 4 colors.  What are the necessary steps (after dropping wastelands) to take to go in this direction?  What card selections would optimize this color mix?

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

I am personally of the opinion that 'Tog needs to evolve back into 4 colors. What are the necessary steps (after dropping wastelands) to take to go in this direction? What card selections would optimize this color mix?

Honestly, I think berserk is the only card you need for green. Deed is good, but EE replaces it handily. In this metagame full of wastes, it is foolish to fetch out 2 off color lands to use the deed. Deed isn't your win condition. Tog is. EE does the same job-it buys you time to win (and it doesn't require you to waste fetches on off-color lands). With that in mind, you could simply add a single Berserk to the side and play 1 tropical main for fetch for it. I've been playing this configuration, and it's been working quite well. Red is absolutely necessary, as you need REBs vs. control slaver, and you need rack and ruins for artifact decks, also fire/ice is quite good vs. welders I hear.

As far as draw engines go, I think it's quite necessary to run 3 intuition, or 2 intuition 1 mystical (although I don't like this config as much). Intuition is THE card that wins you the game. 2 Deep analysis is good enough, as you can simply intuition for 2 deeps and 1 duress. But in most cases, especially against workshop decks, you want to intuition ASAP for AKs. I'm running 1 Gush, 2 deep, 4 AK, and 3 intuition for my draw, and it's been spectacular. I also have fact in the SB to wish for.

As far as wishes go, I think 3 is the right number. It's sooooo versatile and is instant speed. Most of the time, my first wish is for fact, and then the second is for berserk or an answer.

The italian builds look very strong, but I still like having 1 berserk in the board. Adding 1 trop does very little to the manabase, and you get a powerful bomb in the board. Fling cost 2, and is only good if the tog goes unblocked. I do question the thirsts, as I believe deep analysis is still the better choice (it compliments intuition, and if drawn, can draw 4 cards), but it seems to be worknig for the Italians.

Tog is still an incredibly strong deck, and with the right tweaks can go toe to toe with most decks out there.

-Bob

[Revvik]

Here is the main reason why I didn't like Engineered Explosives:

Explosives set to 0 - nukes welding targets such as moxen and artifact lands that aren't named Citadel.

Explosives set to 1 - kills welder

Explosives set to variable target range kill threats welded in.

Each explosives can be played around, and is very narrow depending on what is on the board, and the mana available to you.  Pernicious Deed simply says "Everything must go".  Therefore, it is superior and worth any mana instability risk by fetching out precious green mana.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Here is the main reason why I didn't like Engineered Explosives:

Explosives set to 0 - nukes welding targets such as moxen and artifact lands that aren't named Citadel.

Explosives set to 1 - kills welder

Explosives set to variable target range kill threats welded in.

Each explosives can be played around, and is very narrow depending on what is on the board, and the mana available to you. Pernicious Deed simply says "Everything must go". Therefore, it is superior and worth any mana instability risk by fetching out precious green mana.

That's just it though...all you need to do is kill the welder. Deed is mad good, I will agree. But why put that strain on your manabase? Vs. Control slaver, I don't give a damn about pentavus, platinum angel, or moxen. The only thing that frightens me is recurring slavers. Instead of playing Tog too much like a control deck, lets remember that it's still a combo deck. Engineered explosives buys you enough time to get in that lethal tog swing. Seriously...who cares about board position when you take out their only threat and are about to swing in for the kill?

Now, if you can show me a manabase that can CONSISTENTLY support deed in the face of wastelands, then thats a different story. Vs. Workshop aggro, I want to fetch out Basics ASAP. Plus, it's not like Wish--->Rack and ruin is insufficient. Between Wish and EE, I think Tog has more than enough answers for artifacts and such.

-Bob

[MaxxMatt]

Do you mean wishable targets, or maindeck answers? I feel that anything run as a singleton answer is a liability, which is why I upped the count of Pernicious Deed maindecked. Lists with singletons look too unstable even on paper, and they always seem to fall apart under repeated pressure.

I was talking about your solutions in the sideboard.
They are all 1x1 ( Oxidize, Naturalize, Creatures Removals and so on ).
Aside the addition of a couple of Deeds maindeck, all the things that you can brought in from the side or that you can Wish for AREN?T inherent cards? advantage. They are ONLY temporarily solutions.

You can?t afford to Fire/Ice
You can?t afford to Firestorm
You can?t afford to Rack and Ruin
You can?t afford to Red Elemental Blast.
You can?t afford to Artifact Mutation because of the lack of Red itself too? And it is the BEST card to use as artifact removal for any Tog?s build.

Can you have all those good solutions by playing Green instead of Red?
Can you correctly value the impact of a couple of Deeds, an Oxidize and a Naturalize while comparing them with a Fire/Ice, a Firestorm, a Rack & Ruin, a Red Elemental Blast AND an Engineered Explosives IN THE SAME situations?
Which cards among them would you successfully resolve in order to gain a faster and deeper advantage towards your opponent? Of course the Red ones.

How can you consistently gain advantage by playing ONLY 2 Pernicious Deed as ?board advantage enhancers??

Aren?t you slowly seeing a path in what I?m continually telling to you?
If your only good & global effecting card is Pernicious Deed  AND it is the only thing that prevent you from playing THE GOOD COLOUR, why aren?t you correctly weighting the impact or Red AND Green to finally choose Red?

While EEs are clearly slightly inferior to Deeds, ALL THE OTHER cards that Red could add to your pool are FAR better than the green singletons that you are using right now.
So, Why not shifting to Red if it is a better ?Tempo-Solution? answer to your problems?

As you stated, you could not win  against C-Slavery as much as you win against Stax.
It is exactly the limit that green would pose to you and your build.

Against Stax you need to collect a lot of mana on table AND THEN you can simply resolve your Deed and win. Basic lands and fetchlands let you do it consistently.
On the other hand, C-Slavery oblige you to use all your answers AS SOON AS POSSIBLE and, generally speaking, your opponent can protect all his bombs as good as you. This is why you need to use Instant Speed?s and Multiple Targets? Spells to win this FAST war. A single quick Wish ( with all the acceleration that our build can dispose ) is usually better than a Deed, because it can affect the opponent?s board in a FASTER and consequently BETTER way. And you have 4!!! of them AND 1 or 2 E.E.s   

Wasteland is another issue you mentioned. I would only ever drop the three shiny, pretty, foily Wastelands in this deck for a fourth color. Workshops are prevalent in my area, and to quote Smememnenem: Wasteland is a tactical card. Tactical my ass, point that thing at the Workshop and watch them fight their own Trinisphere - Tog topdecks better than them any day.

Smemmen isn?t going to tell us this thing anyomore exactly because itself is thinking about it being outdated. He told us that Wastelands are tactical BEFORE Crucible of the Worlds was printed.
AT NOW, a Wasteland without any possibility to be recycled is fairly NOT ENOUGH to warrant his playing.
You can?t play with CoW because you have to win regardless HOW MANY LANDS your opponent had.
You should pack BASICS and MORE FETCHLANDS AND COLOURED lands if you play in a field with a lot of Welder.dec.

Retrospectively speaking, Wasting a MW isn?t so good especially because:

1)   Any deck with MW packs in CoW that completely nullify the use of that Wasteland of yours
2)   Any deck with MW have finally optimized the manabase thanks to CoW in order to reach AT LEAST three mana with each land drop, nullifying all your denial IF YOU ARE NOT GOING TO CONSTANTLY reuse it.

The only tactical use that I saw in a Wasteland at now is denying opponent?s double blue and consequently his Mana Drain.  On the other hand, I'm not seeing GOOD DECKS with Drains that decided to fetch for non-basics lands in their first two or three turns ( if not obliged by strange situations ), almost NEGATING THE PROPER USE of Wasteland once more and relying it to a Situational Role.

Without your 4 Strips effects you can run the full set of Moxen and another fetchland, or some of them AND another Green source plus the needed coloured mana.
That would help to stabilize faster and better against Stax.dec FAR MORE FREQUENTLY than Wasteland themselves

   

However, this list isn't set in stone, guy!  If you feel the need, take it, build it up and try the differences mentioned. I know I will be, I have some leftovers from my build's old "unpretty" (unfoiled) days, and I'll be giving a few of these suggestions a try.

:=) My goal was slightly different. :=)
I tried to tell you why I would never play Green at now, hoping to convince you a bit about my arguments.
I would like a lot if you would consider changing things in your deck according to the last sentenced we made.

While all your results with your decks are good as much as mine, I would like to underline that some of the difficulties you had with some Tier1 ( TPS and C-Slavery or Welder.decs ) are ALMOST negated by the presence of Red instead of Green.
Regarding you rmetagame situations ( A lot of MW.decs,as you stated above ) playing with red, you can consistently collect enough  win against Stax to be totally satisfied by your colours change too. :=) And of course, I assure to you that you would not miss Deeds? :=)

This only means I can't Wish for removed AKs. I can, however, control the size and explosiveness of both my and their AKs with the 'Tog.

IMHO, resolving Tog without going to win the game soon is just strategically AS BAD AS playing nowadays with three of them. Two are enough not to shuffle them back too frequently and they are enough to easily find them at some points while resolving Y Will.

C-Slavery would laugh at you if you are going to proactively resolving an Atog starting swinging with it only to RemoveFromTheGame your own AKs or dealing some damages   ? He would counter a lot of your things thanks to ReBs AND all the other counters and you would AUTOSCOOP to you own winner. :=((

I am personally of the opinion that 'Tog needs to evolve back into 4 colors. What are the necessary steps (after dropping wastelands) to take to go in this direction? What card selections would optimize this color mix?

That sound a bit unneeded for me because if I look at the green cards that I would be going to add to the deck only Artifact Mutation came in my mind. On the other hand, Shattering Pulse ( even if it has a completely different impact to the game ) is covering the A.M.?s spot in the sideboard very well.

If you want to play a 4C-C-Hulk with a look at the current enemies, I can redirect you through the reading of the Top8?s lists of my Massa Carrara?s Coverage. That metagamed 4C-C?s  Hulk had an high finishing especially because of his good manabase and the card?s choice.

If you would do those changes

-1 Dryad
-1 Cunning Wish/Duress
-2 Skeletal Scrying
+1 Atog
+1 Intuition
+2 Deep Analysis

You almost have and old style 4th colours? build but a resilient mana base and a good sideboard.

The italian builds look very strong, but I still like having 1 berserk in the board. Adding 1 trop does very little to the manabase, and you get a powerful bomb in the board. Fling cost 2, and is only good if the tog goes unblocked.

I almost agree with all the contents of your last two post.
Referring to the quote above, I have to add some thing to support once more the use of Fling without missing a lot the Berserk.

1)   Berserk obliges you to use your attack phase to win a game
2)   Berserk is more efficient of Fling ONLY if you are planning to trample to the opponent as soon as you can. On the other hand and from your experience, is it common that you are going to win with your Tog simply trampling your opponent away?. From mine, I usually have to carefully protect the last Tog?s attack to be sure of wining
3)   Berserk has not Fire/Ice?s Proofs
4)   Fling can let you win with Istant speed. Can you try to win with a Berserk responding to your opponent that is trying to resolve a Topdecked Y Will? ( Dulmen, Last August?s Tourney. Lorenzo Fedeli istantly won with Fling in the described game situation against a 4C-C that Topdecked Y Will the turn before Lorenzo was planning to win with is resolved Tog )
5)   On a minor note, if you are going to play with Sarcatog, 8 SoLoMoxen, AND Fling are enough ( even only a few cards in hand )  to kill the opponent almost any time
6)   Both Berserk and Fling aren?t stopped by ReBs.
7)   Usually Berserk shines against ALL those decks that try to win faster than you especially with fatties because it let you win faster than them. Are they so difficult to win against with the configuration of a UBr-Tog? A full set of Wishes, a couple of E.E.s and 2 Tog usually are enough time to let you win Flinging your Atog in the opponent?s face. :=)

I do question the thirsts, as I believe deep analysis is still the better choice (it compliments intuition, and if drawn, can draw 4 cards), but it seems to be worknig for the Italians.

They are an experiment made by some my teammates because ( in the specific Massa?s tourney ) they didn?t predict so many mirror matches to warrant the use of Deeps. They would like not to lose blue cards ( this is why they didn?t use Skeletal Scryings ) and they want to add some Instant?s Speed Drawers too. The choice of TFK was supported by:

1)   An high amount of Artifacts to throw into the grave between maindeck and sideboard to efficiently support the use of a couple of them
2)   The possibility of recycling some of them with a Cunning Wish if you are unable to Wish for Ancestral or AK
3)   They usually draw 2 cards with istant speed. By the previsions that we made, it would be always better drawing during opponent?s EoT than drawing two times with sorcery speed. This argument is valid ONLY if Atogs aren?t prevalent
4)   TFK increase the Atog?s size faster than Deep

As you said and even IMHO, DeepAnal are far better than TFK, especially if you are going to use 3 Intuitions because you can optimize a lot better the 2° and the 3°, but I must recognize that TFK did a good job anyway.



@About Engineered Explosives

As Clown said, the most common reason for using E.E. is killing Welders.
On the other hand, playing with UBr.Tog, you would realize only after a few games, that you are almost able to play it for 3 and even for 4 without so much difficulties, taking out with a single E.E. any game breaking permanent that your opponent resolved with those cc. For all the cc higher than 4, you have 4 Wish to abuse f anything between maindeck and sideboard.

In the end, E.E. shines over Deed AGAIN because its ability to crush ANY CotVs settled at ANY cc. IMHO, this characteristic is far more important than ANY OTHER Pros that Deed had on E.E.




MAxxMAtt

[Revvik]

For starters, I usually have better luck against Control Slaver than I do with $T4KS

A lot of interesting points were made in the last couple of posts.  Addressing a couple of them:

A) Dropping Psychatog INSTANTLY puts your opponent into a defensive stance.  Your reaction to the thought of my dropping a 'Tog when I don't plan to win is proof.

B) Wastelands ARE good without Crucible of Worlds.  Most 'Shop players will keep a hand consisting of Workshop -> Trinisphere, content that that play, while risky, is enough to stall for enough time to set up a win.

Wastelands can often completely reverse the situation in those cases, and I think the only time I would ever drop Wasteland entirely from my build would be to make room for the fourth color.

C)

You can't afford to Fire/Ice
You can't afford to Firestorm
You can't afford to Rack and Ruin
You can't afford to Red Elemental Blast.
You can't afford to Artifact Mutation because of the lack of Red itself too - And it is the BEST card to use as artifact removal for any Tog's build.

You are absolutely correct about both this and my anti-tempo solutions in my sideboard.  I cannot do any one of those things, but in almost every case where one of those cards would have been great solutions, I lucked out a win anyways.  Go figure.  

D)

How can you consistently gain advantage by playing ONLY 2 Pernicious Deed as ?board advantage enhancers??

Pernicious Deed is not the reason I run green - Berserk is.  If no creatures are on the board, Fling comes online just as fast as Berserk does.  If even one creature is present, then Fling takes a while to become a threat.  

As another aside, this is another reason I feel a 4 color build needs to be optimized - Fling, aside from potentially being instant speed, is a lousy kill.  There's also the prestige of killing someone with a high-class card like Berserk - it's akin to being executed with a samurai blade as opposed to a rusty butterknife.

E) On the issue of 'Tog being combo-control:
Unless you are properly able to control the board position and control the flow of the game, you will not pull off the combo kill.

Play the control game, and the combo part will come naturally - and if you're properly playing the control game, then it doesn't matter how long the combo kill takes - whether you plink away at his life with a 1/2, or smack him with a 40/21 in one fell swoop.

My build is optimized for me as a player.  It contains an excellent counter suite (4 Force, 4 Drain, 3 Duress), incredible synergy (practically every card in the deck flows fluidly with the rest), Board Control (2 Pernicious Deed) the Best Damn Draw Engine on the Planet(tm), utility (2 Cunning Wishes, 3 Wastelands, Strip Mine), and enough brokenness to handle any matchup if played correctly (Library of Alexandria for control matchups, Yawgmoth's Will for... everything else, etc.).

This is not to say that this holds true for everyone else.  In fact, it took me about a month to get a good handle on playing this deck.  I think its next necessary evolution is to include red, not cut a color for red.

Taking your arguments into consideration (most of them were good ones, for which I do not have a retort  :lol: ) - every Tuesday I meet with a group of people (around 20) and we hold mini-Type 1, unlimited proxy, tournaments.  They are excellent testing grounds.  I have a few ideas for a UBr build (sorry, not the 4-wish version posted) that I'm going to try out.  When I determine what red utility cards work best for me, I'm going to determine how to merge the ideas and selections from the two Psychatog decks into the new and improved Hulk Smash.  I'll be sharing my ideas - I think one of the reasons the old Hulk Smash was good was due to the quality of the card pool it could choose from - and green doesn't have what red can give it, and red can't offer what green has.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

On the Fling vs. Berserk issue:

The casting cost makes a huge difference. In the matchups where you want to play combo, you want to draw as many cards as possible before turn 3-4 and then play wish--->berserk on your critical turn. the difference between 4 and 5 mana is pretty signifcant in this format. I'm not saying that you can't wish for fling and use it next turn, but it is slower, and gives the opponent time to find a creature. You are right, in about 70% of my games, I win without berserk. But in the 30% of the games that I won with berserk, it was CRUCIAL. It gives the deck another dimension. Running 1 trop does very little to the manabas. I suggest you try it out. It has been worknig wonders for me. Plus, if workshop aggro is huge in your meta, Berserk may be better.

E) On the issue of 'Tog being combo-control:
Unless you are properly able to control the board position and control the flow of the game, you will not pull off the combo kill.

Play the control game, and the combo part will come naturally - and if you're properly playing the control game, then it doesn't matter how long the combo kill takes - whether you plink away at his life with a 1/2, or smack him with a 40/21 in one fell swoop.

This is only part true. The reason tog is so good is that it CAN play combo without control. Have you ever dropped mox, land, 'storm into intuition, cast it next turn, drawn some cards and won on turn 5?

As far as wastes go, I'm on the fence about this one. I have NO idea how I would fit them into my manabase, yet I always miss them in the stax matchup. In the end they're probably uneeded, as wish--->answer followed by tog is better.

I don't think the italian builds are optimal, but I think they present some very interesting ideas. In a field full of stax, I have to wonder why they don't play 3 togs. Playing with just 1 tog and 1 sarcatog is too risky IMO. Playing an early psychatog can steal you soooooo many games vs. stax. Any explanations here? As far as the extraction issue goes, it shouldn't be a problem. TPS runs 4 duress and 4 Force for protection. You run 3/4 duress, 0/1 mind twist, 4 force, and 4 mana drain. Not to mention extraction costs 4. If this REALLY bugs you, I think it may be better to just run a living wish (although I don't recommend it).

-Bob

[Revvik]

Turn 5?  Please, this is Vintage  

In all seriousness, I'm more careful with my AKs than that.  Though more often than not, first turn Intuitioning for them is correct, I only do it if I either know they aren't running them, or if I have an AK in hand.

Second, that isn't combo.  That is the synergy of the deck at work establishing its draw engine / brokenness.  The kill is a combo - but not in the literal sense, as there is no real combo.

As a control deck, my version shines.  'Nuff said, really.  It just doesn't take forever (like some control decks) to win.

[Ultima]

Second, that isn't combo.  That is the synergy of the deck at work establishing its draw engine / brokenness.  The kill is a combo - but not in the literal sense, as there is no real combo.

As a control deck, my version shines.  'Nuff said, really.  It just doesn't take forever (like some control decks) to win.

Bob knows what he's talking about.  Tog does have the ability to draw so many cards and do so many broken things in a single turn that it can become a combo as well as the literal combo aspect of tog into berserk.

I have read what you said about Deed and your build.  I simply can'y agree with you for so many reasons already stated and what i've seen in testing.  Both MaxxMatt and Bob are right when they say that explosives are just better than deed.  Deed is too mana intensive to both cast and execute well.  EE can put down as early as turn 1 because most of the time you only need to set it at 1 or 2.  You do need to set it at 3 against workshop but since you have wishs to compliment the EE, you can use at at 1 most of the time as well.  In any scenario you think about EE is just better.  Most of the time when Tog plays any welder deck, if Tog lets up for one turn, it can be game.  One welder is enough to beat tog which means you have to be able to cast answers as soon as they come.  Just to take out that 1 welder, it takes 5 mana for the deed and 3 for the EE. If your playing against Stax, i'm not saying its hard for you cast a deed, casting it is the easy part.  But in order to make the deed worth it, you have to blow it at 4 80% of the time.  If have 4 mana against stax that isn't getting wasted or saced to a stack then you've probably already won without the deed.

Personally, I have come to the conclusion just like JP that wastelands don't do anything for Tog really.  The only reason most people play wastes are to answer to 3sphere.  What most don't understand is that when both of you are under a trinisphere without land, the workshop player has a 70% better chance to topdeck better because they have workshops and crucibles.  That's only against Stax too, that doesn't take into account 5/3 which could have a jug or su-chi swinging at your head.  I really don't see what your build offers over others after I tested it against Workshop or any other tier one.

[Revvik]

Nobody sees what it offers, yet I can tell you that I win consistently with it in a field heavy with Control Slaver, Stax, and various combo.  My preference for Pernicious Deed stems from a lot of things, but lets put forth this situation: Control Slaver has out a couple land, 3 artifact sources, and a Mindslaver in the yard.  You have a 'tog out.  They play a Goblin Welder that you cannot counter, yet you draw Deed (or tutor for it, I don't care).  Engineered Explosives would have answered that Welder.  Pernicious Deed answers that and all Welders for the immediate future, unless they draw more artifact sources.  Plus (and this is rarely an issue, unless both players have drawn out all their resources and are into late-game topdeck "we both suck" mode) Engineered Explosives can never kill a high-cost permanent like Platinum Angel, forcing you to rely on your Wishes.  Which is a counterable spell, while Deed may have been sitting there on the table for some time.

I guess all that is really just a half-assed defense - I've failed to support my color choice based on your attacks on my board.  However, since there is no real replacement for Deed or Ground Seal (or Berserk, don't try that Fling crap with me, I'm too purist for that), I personally believe Four-Color is the way to go, and can be facilitated by the dropping of the 3 wastelands.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Nobody sees what it offers, yet I can tell you that I win consistently with it in a field heavy with Control Slaver, Stax, and various combo. My preference for Pernicious Deed stems from a lot of things, but lets put forth this situation: Control Slaver has out a couple land, 3 artifact sources, and a Mindslaver in the yard. You have a 'tog out. They play a Goblin Welder that you cannot counter, yet you draw Deed (or tutor for it, I don't care). Engineered Explosives would have answered that Welder. Pernicious Deed answers that and all Welders for the immediate future, unless they draw more artifact sources. Plus (and this is rarely an issue, unless both players have drawn out all their resources and are into late-game topdeck "we both suck" mode) Engineered Explosives can never kill a high-cost permanent like Platinum Angel, forcing you to rely on your Wishes. Which is a counterable spell, while Deed may have been sitting there on the table for some time.

Here's the thing though, if you draw EE in that situation, you will likely have won BECAUSE YOU HAVE TOG OUT. Now trust me, I LOVE pernicious deed. Go back and read the numerous Tog threads that I've started/posted in. I was one of the biggest advocates of the card. Then, I started to realize that Deed was unneeded. Seriously, it's just filler. Why screw your opponent when you can just win? I think you're playing tog too much like a control deck. Deed is incredible, yes, but once you realize that you win when tog hits the table over 50% of the time, you start seeing why deed isn't needed. Usually, one wish for an answer is enough. EE is in there because it allows you to do the SAME thing that deed does, only better---stall till you get the tog.

Also, your argument for deed doesn't hold up. The fact that wish is an instant, means it will likely have a BETTER chance at resolving than deed (which can only be played at sorcery speed).

I do agree however that Tog needs to be 4 colors. However, putting the emphasis on green is not the direction to go. The one thing green that CANNOT be replaced is Berserk. Berserk is too important to this deck, as it's combo-control. Oxidize is good, but running a high basics count means that Rack and Ruin can come online just as fast. Ground seal is good vs. control slaver, but so is 4 REB. Welders and goblins a problem? you've got F/I and Firestorm. Tog is sideboard deck, and honestly, red offers more than green in that department. The only problem is running a smooth manabase that doesn't get worked by workshop decks. This IMO is the issue we need to resolve. MY current manabase looks like:

5 Fetch
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
7 SoLoMoxen
4 Island

After testing a bit, I found that the lone swamp kinda sucked. You never wanna fetch it unless they get crucible/strip because getting UU up is KEY to this decks success (think mana drain). Plus, you really only need the black source once or twice in any given game. I still feel a bit awkward with only 4 islands. I think you can argue cutting a sea for another island.  This manabase has been treating me really well. However, I'm still not getting the solid matchup i want vs. workshop aggro. Any suggestions?

-Bob

[Revvik]

I don't remember if my list is posted here or not, but this is my manabase:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground
2 Tropical
LoA
Strip
3 Wastes
Lotus
3 Moxen
Sol Ring

You advocate the loss of a swamp, and we echo in the thoughts of losing the Wastelands.  I do feel both Strip Mine and Library of Alexandria belong in this deck.  Ergo, I probably will not be replacing them.

So this gives me 4 slots to fool around with.  2 Volcanics minimum, and DEFINITELY the Mox Ruby - those are auto-includes, which takes care of the ex-Wasteland slots.  Now to fill the slot that was previously a swamp - 5th fetchland, or Volcanic Island straight up?

Also, with changes like this, one Deed will be removed from the mainboard - probably reserved to the sideboard, and that space will be filled by a third Cunning Wish.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

as far as the manabase goes, you absolutely HAVE to run all 7 SoLoMoxen. In this format, you want to MAXIMIZE your chances of doing something ridiculous turn 1 or 2. As far as LoA and strip goes, they are pointless. Let me explain:

1) Strip Mine - as a singleton, I don't see what this accomplishes. Instead of trying to randomly win by striping a workshop, you should focus on making a stable manabase for yourself, so you can comeback under a wasteland/sphere lock.

2) LoA - I don't see the purpose of this either. The argument is that it wins games vs. control, but tog beats control all day long. At SCGIII, I watched as my teammate CRUSH a 4cc that was on the draw and had turn 1 LoA. It's not like tog can't outdraw other decks. As I said earlier, getting UU up is more important.

Personally, i see no reason in keeping deed if you're playing 3 wish and mystical. I would switch to 1 EE, but it's your decision. That way, you can cut down to 1 trop and free up a land for a basic/mox.

-Bob

[Revvik]

4CC - I have lost one game in my entire history with 'Tog against a 4CC, so saying that "crushing 4CC" is evidence, isn't saying much  
LoA is superb to have against Meandeck Oath and Control Slavery, both control decks that on paper seem better than 'Tog - helps establish a "tertiary" draw engine, if you will.  Maybe I'm thinking too old school control here, I don't know, but my personal build will never cut Library.

Strip Mine - this WAS included mostly as a way to answer an opponent's LoA, but if it isn't a concern, then it can be cut for the fifth Mox (ya know, that one Mox that sucks, because it taps for white).  I'll try both configurations, but I confess odds are I'll stick with the Strip Mine.

[Ultima]

This is my manabase and after alot of testing against Workshop, I believe it to be the ideal manabase.

7 SoLoMox
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp

Bob, if you really want that solid game against workshop aggro, I suggest you cut duress for mana leak and see what i'm talking about.  Duress is so bad against workshop its not funny while leak protects your manabase and lets you control tempo better.  EE shouldn't be maindeck unless there are ay least 2 there I find.  The one is just too random and often doesn't show up in time.

Oh, and for welders, you guys should really be using lava dart, not firestorm, the discard is too much against slaver and dart is uncounterable.

[Revvik]

Thus why you run 3 Volcanics, to accomodate Lava Dart.  I think I will be trying the same thing, then.  Sounds like it would work pretty damn well, actually.

Mana Leak?  Sounds like an odd choice - I remember though in my Mono Blue days that land, Mox, Mana Leak up was pretty potent against the field.
The one problem I think I would have with that is opening a spot for the fourth Leak, and the fact that if I'm leaving counter mana up, it should only be for Mana Drain - if I'm not bluffing Drain, I'm casting draw spells.  Bluffing Drain works in 'Tog, not bluffing Leak.  If I have two blue up, I can make a convincing argument that I could be Draining their next spell.  I can't really say things like "you KNOW there's a Leak for that thing" and expect to be taken seriously.
Meanwhile, Duress handles cards regardless if there's a Mox out or not.  It can't deal with topdecked gold, and it helps welders - but you shouldn't be letting a welder hit the table anyways.

[Ultima]

If you read my earlier posts that started this thread, playing mana leak isn't about bluffing or control mirror, its about not exposing your early mana to workshops wastes and controlling tempo.  Workshop aggro and Stax blow right past duress and seas are all to easily wasted.

[Smmenen]

It's a basic difference in philosophy.  Mana Leak implies that you should be countering their spells.  Duress implies that they should be countering yours.  You play Duress to clear the way for some bomb, often.  

That's why I generally SB out duress against shops.  The philosophy is similar whether to play Wastelands or not.  Wasteland implies that you are trying to get a tempo advantage or mana screw them, not running Wasteland implies that you just want to win.  I prefer to play Tog as an overpowering deck with reactive elements.

Somehow what gets lost in all of this is that Tog, like Goth Slaver, imo, is a Yawg Will deck.  You accellerate, accellerate, and Will, Win.   Everything else is just buying time and clearing the way for Will.

[Negator13]

I don't think I've ever seen a (non Sui) black deck that wasn't a YawgWill deck at heart.

[Smmenen]

I'm talking about literally accellerating into Yawg Will.  Goth Slaver was designed to do it one turn faster than Tog.

[Moxlotus]

I don't think I've ever seen a (non Sui) black deck that wasn't a YawgWill deck at heart.

Dragon has black and doesnt run Yawg Will.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

although I understand the power of mana leak, I'm still a bit reluctant to use it. Leak is only good if you can get it online turn 1. I'll try it out and and see how it works.

One card that's made a world of difference for me is hurkyl's recall in the board. It's SPECTACULAR vs. stax, and can be very useful vs. workshop aggro. With me playing so many basic islands, there are (not freuqently) some situations where I have wish, but no red mana, this is where recall shines.

As far as tog being a will deck, this basically is true, but it still can win through sheer card advantage and wish--->berserk. I'm not sure why this topic is relevant, as we all know that will is amazing in tog.

-Bob