Type One, power, reprints, and YOU!

[Whatever Works]

Nothing makes me want to cry more when they use type 1 power cards as prizes for type 2 tournement events... Last year a first place States T2 event was a Black Lotus... and watching some little arrogant acne faced kid with an affinity deck win a black lotus... and then going around with the card talking about gay T1 is, and bringing up all the T1 stereotypes (dice roll etc.) infuriated me... My friend got kicked out of the store when he swore at the kid for saying something like, "its almost insulting to get this for winning a type 2 event... Only shitty newbs who arent good at magic play T1."

So agreeing with pizzaman i would be very upset if this was a ptq prize or any prize that doesnt involve the type 1 community directly... Though i strongly doubt that any form of power will ever be reprinted... However, I wouldnt be suprized if they reprint artifact hate cards to balance the type 2 format in the future sets (or base sets) including Rack and ruin.. Gorilla Shaman... or even Energy Flux...

[Xman]

Ok, while I am for reprints of T1 staples, and I can't remember if I posted in this thread about reprinting power, I have thought about it.  I think I posted somewhere that I would be for it, and now I am against reprinting stuf flike loA, drains, P9, etc.  This is because those cards have a sort of mysticism around them that would be destroyed.  Just like when the Red Sox won the world series, some of their charm disappeared.  I would not want that to happen to cards like Black Lotus, the moxen, the blue men.  It just wouldn't be right.

However, I would be down for reprinting other type 1 staples, just to get more of them out there.  There are more than enough Dual lands to go around, so those are out.  the onslaught Fetchs, there are plenty.  but any cards that are actually rare to find or get that are not to expensive, I would be down for reprinting.

[jdl]

...I am against reprinting stuf flike loA, drains, P9, etc.  This is because those cards have a sort of mysticism around them that would be destroyed.

There's not a whole lot of mysticism in a basic land with "Mox Jet" scribbled across it.  Since that's where the format is headed, I would much rather see official reprints and let WotC make money off it.

Proxies absolutely suck, but what choice do people really have right now if the goal is to make the format grow?

[CHA1N5]

Ok, while I am for reprints of T1 staples, and I can't remember if I posted in this thread about reprinting power, I have thought about it.  I think I posted somewhere that I would be for it, and now I am against reprinting stuf flike loA, drains, P9, etc.

While I agree that there is still a mystique surrounding P9 cards (and a few others), it is counter-productive to the goal of reprints to promote anything less than all of the expensive cards.

The goal of reprints is to bring people into the format. If you only reprint the lowest 5-10% of expensive cards, you'll likely only bring in about 5-10% of those who are currently unable to afford the format.

The goal of any serious discussion about reprints needs to be how to introduce a significant* volume of reprints of the most expensive cards into the market while mitigating the financial impact to those who possess the original versions of same cards.

Ultimately, there are two types of people who object to reprints:

1) Those who subscribe to the Mystique Argument and say things such as "These cards SHOULD be scarce."

2) Those who fear a financial loss due to their current investment in expensive cards.


People in category 1 are tricky. Their objection to reprints is mostly aesthetic. As such, there are possible reprint scenarios that will retain some of the mystique of ABU Power (ever seen an 8th Ed Mox? They suck, aesthetically speaking). The other way to appeal to these folks is to get them excited about the reprints, provided said reprints have mystique of their own (see Foil T1 Champs Prizes, etc.).


People in category 2 are pretty easy to address, because they are responding to economy and that can be manipulated. Unfortunately, there are two subclasses of category 2 folks:

a) Players who have power
b) Dealers

Dealers are positioned to suffer the biggest loss, but they are also easier to direct economic compensatory efforts at. That is, if reprints sell like hotcakes (off the shelf) and immediately skyrocket in price in the aftermarket, dealers are positioned to make a great profit from them. Dealers could also participate in any efforts targeted at players, provided those initiatives are scalable.

Players who stand to lose value in their current power cards are possibly the toughest collective nut to crack. How can WotC compensate such an individual for their loss? Possible literal solutions include a "Buyback" (LOL) program for certain cards. Clearly, this idea is rife with complicating factors and may be legally disallowed (see: lawyers). Similarly, some sort of "Exchange" program could be implemented (for players AND dealers, at that) whereby WotC would take in Old Power from individuals and dole out some predetermined amount of product (presumably, the reprint product). Again, many pitfalls and possible legal roadblocks exist with this plan, but it is encouraging to note that there is a precedent in past exchange programs.


The solution to the problem does not reside in this post, but hopefully you, gentle reader, can see that it is helpful to examine the motivations of all the people involved. Possibly the most important motivation is that of WotC. Simply put, they want money. More accurately, they want money while not alienating and upsetting their customers. As such, they would implement a lucrative reprint product in a heartbeat; provided they were confident that it's PR value would be positive as opposed to negative. We, as players - possibly the most enigmatic group involved, can do WotC and ourselves a favor by Brainstorming (ha!) solutions.





* This is clearly subjective, but needs to be understood in terms of growing the pool of Type I players such that WotC will profit from continued support of the format.

[Sagath]

Ultimately, there are two types of people who object to reprints:

1) Those who subscribe to the Mystique Argument and say things such as "These cards SHOULD be scarce."

2) Those who fear a financial loss due to their current investment in expensive cards.


People in category 1 are tricky. Their objection to reprints is mostly aesthetic. As such, there are possible reprint scenarios that will retain some of the mystique of ABU Power (ever seen an 8th Ed Mox? They suck, aesthetically speaking). The other way to appeal to these folks is to get them excited about the reprints, provided said reprints have mystique of their own (see Foil T1 Champs Prizes, etc.).


People in category 2 are pretty easy to address, because they are responding to economy and that can be manipulated

Are both these problems not solved by a slow (IE: 2 a month, or major tournament WOTC can sponsor/charge for), but steady influx of cards to the format? As I said in my first post I do not see any reason why a winner of Gencon (and other large T1 events) shouldnt be able to recieve a T1 Reprint of Promotional status (read: foil power). A slow influx of Higher Demand (foils) power will do nothing to the ABU value, if not increase it. At the same time, the seconndary market benefits, as the winner either PIMPS his deck and sells his former power, or resells the foil power. This produces a slow influx of more Power to the format, and will eventually spred it around.
This influx MUST be tide with the ESTIMATED growth rate of the format, minus a small percentage to keep the balance of price/rarity/players This ratio, what I commonly refer to as the 'holy trinity' is what keeps the format balanced, healthy, and most importantly Alive. The 'holy trinity' is key to the survival, and growth of the format in my opinion.

Wizards does 4 things by this strategy that will help themselves, magic in general, and T1;

1) Entry fees for the events, covering both costs, prizes, and profit for WOTC
2) promotes type one, which inturn feeds back on itself to enlarge the entire game of MTG.
3) makes T1 players happy, increasing (instead of shrinking) the player pool of T1, selling more product in the long run (we do need current cards to build decks!)
4) Lessens the requirement of proxies at events (making wotc happy), but keeping the 'holy trinity' in balance at the same time.

Number Four is my personal take, allthough by pure ratio math, someone may say "if the player base is enlarging by the same margin as the influx of power, how does that lessen proxies!?". Your right. It doesnt make sense, except when you look at the big picture. People playing at these high prized events have to play by Sanctioned DCI rules in order to win. People will thus only build decks with said power, that they have the cards to build with.

I should also state that these reprints, while lucrative, should also try not to impose on the 'mystique' of the origionals as CHA1N5 discussed. How to go about this, while still making the cards equal to, or slightly less then, the origionals is beyond me at this moment. I'll think on this some more, and see if I can come up with a viable solution.

I hope I'm comming across clear on this. Ive tried to expand upon my thoughts as best I can, and I'll try to clear up any misconceptions about my beliefs on reprinting Type One cards. Which I'm sure there will be

[CHA1N5]

@Sagath:

I love the idea of foil power as T1 Champs prizes.  The problem is, such a slow introduction of cards do not actually meet the primary goal of reprints: making a significant amount of cards available to players who cannot currently afford them.  It would be awesome (because I would have won them twice already, if they'd done it ) but it doesn't actually help unless they find another outlet to distribute much larger quantities of them.

It might be more helpful to look at the process and volume of Judge's promo's for an example:  what if all of those foil Intuitions and Balances were foil Moxes?  

1) Would that harm to value of Unlimited Moxen?  (since UL Moxen will the first to take a hit in price)

2) Would it allow economically-challenged players to enter the format?

[Sagath]

The more I think about it, the less it seems clear. Reprints cannot be thought about in an analytical way like this. The goal of T1 reprints cannot be to make cards afforable to people who cannot afford them. The goal is to make more power available globally for type 1 players.

As was said early, there is only aproximatly 22000 sets of power in the world, of which I would think a overestimate of 50% still see play. The limiting factor is not price. That is a side effect of the cause. The limiting factor is actually the demand FAR exceeds the supply, and the supply is still diminishing. In another 5 years the supply will be even less, and the demand probably far greater. Without some sort of influx of new old cards the format will hit a bottleneck, and the format will stagnate and die.

This is why I refer to the holy trinity. Players create the demand which creates the price. All three of these variables must be relativly equal, or an imbalance occurs. Too many players, too much demand, too high a price. A fallout occurs as people abandon the format for something cheaper. This can be rectified by a steady influx of cards to the format. This is no different then our banks printing new money. Many factors make this occur; inflation, economic growth, but most importantly is Stability.

The sad fact is, and I hate to say it as an owner of these old cards, but if there is not eventually some kind of influx of old cards, T1 is doomed to die as we know it. That does not mean it will cease to exist, but it will change, and drastically. Probably to something similar to the new Legacy format.

I, as a collector, and player, would rather see a steady trickle of reprints enter the format, and allow room for growth, then watch the format decay.

[Moxlotus]

If TOs everywhere ran 10 proxy tournaments, then how would T1 die out due to lack of cards?

[Jacob Orlove]

Foreign language reprints.

That is all.

[CHA1N5]

@ Sagath:

You are right about the the goal of making power available globally.  I was leaving that as implied in my earlier description of goals.  Either way, it is also very important and inextricably linked to bringing players to the format.

@ Moxlotus:

Proxy events are great, but let's not forget WotC's motivation.  Proxy events will continue to be great for the format, but there is nothing quite like "official" support (although the current grass-roots movement is very satisfying).

@ Oar Love:

Good call.  That strikes me as another possible loophole in the current policy.  Who knows?

[jpmeyer]

It's not a loophole  

[Jacob Orlove]

Well, they'd still have to be promotional and all that.

[Madchemist]

I like the idea of Wizards printing a T4 or T8 from champs. It would give new players an idea at whats going on in the format and put good proxys that you could play with. The only thing problem(maybe, maybe not) would be the other half of the card. The artwork. It would have to be new artwork ALA judges balance prize. They can't use the old artwork because of the whole royalty thing.
Will it happen? Probably not. No matter how much we ask for it. Wizards has a thing about helping T1 like that. Yes they would make money, but its a one shot deal. You buy the decks and thats it. No pack or drafting or anything like that. I hate to be a pessimist, but you never know I guess. Stranger things have happened. Red Sox anyone???


MC

[+t]

I was thinking of this the other day, and since this is fairly similar to the topic at hand, I don't think it merits its own thread.

Anyway, here is my "idea":

How do you feel about WOTC printing T1 Staples in MTGO (Power and $$ stuff included) in a T1 legal set?  The cards, though they are techincally being reprinted, would not be competing with Paper Magic cards (compare paper FoF to online FoF, paper Deed to online Deed).  

This could potentially bring many more people to MTGO (you would play MTGO if you could play with Foil BB Moxen).  

*sigh* Wishful thinking...

[Dr. Sylvan]

The most interesting parts of this issue to me are as follows:

(1) The impact of a large new supply on the prices of the old supply.
(2) The possibility that Wizards wouldn't undertake a reprint scheme even if no large interest group of customers were opposed.

(1) isn't as simple as it seems; I'm not convinced that the prices of the ancient cards are as dependent on the number of new copies as the conventional wisdom says. 4th Edition Balance costs as little as $3 from SCG; Alpha and Beta are listed for $100, as is the Judge promo. Mind Twist is $4 from 4E, $100 or $85 from AB. Underground Sea is $30 from Revised, $60 Unlimited, $250 from AB. Volcanic Island is $20 Revised, $250 Beta. I could go on, but the point is that cards printed in absolutely huge print runs are still worth ten times as much or more in their rarer editions. And none of those cards is as uniformly in demand as Moxes and Black Lotus.

My prediction if they sent out tens of thousands of promotional Moxen as Judge rewards, is that those would immediately be worth $150+, devaluing over time to somewhere in the $50 range depending on how many were printed (they might even stick near $100). The original Power would temporarily sell lower on eBay, probably by 25+% for the month or two after the promos started hitting the market. Over time, their pimpness would keep the UL copies at 3-5 times the value of the abundant promos, with the BB versions higher. We all know that people will pay for pimpness. There is an extensive market of people who will go out of their way to buy extremely expensive foils, and original Power will always retain this price inflation. I would be surprised if UL Moxen descended below $150, when useless cards like The Abyss are still over $50.

(2) is harder to be sure about. Ferrett said this long ago:

Damned Lie #3: Wizards Needs To Reprint.
They're not going to. Yet. And I'll tell you why.

The reprints are the easiest money they'll ever make.

Right now, Magic is doing well; there's a thriving Pro Tour, as far as I can tell sales are up (Wizards has laid off a few employees, true, but Wizards always overestimates trends and overhires), and Magic is healthier than ever. Attendance seems to be up across the field.

Now. There will come a day when Magic is creatively spent; could be a year, could be twenty, but it will come. One day, Wizards will watch the last Magic players slip away into the abyss (lacking, as most of us do, protection from black) and nobody will want to play it any more.

When that day comes, they will bend - no matter what they say today - and they will reprint the Mox and the Lotus and the Time Walks with a smile on their faces. There will be a print campaign about the return to the basics, maybe with new art, and there will be a frenzy of buying, even from people who abandoned the game a long time ago. Hey, even if I only played the game casually for a few months, I heard about the Moxen and the Lotus; I'd want to own one. The die-hards will want twenty.

You're all right. Reprinting the old cards would be staggeringly popular. It would increase interest in Magic across the board. Players who hadn't picked up a deck in years would come slinking back into stinking, decaying shops to try Magic for one last time.

And you could never top it.

So why the hell would you do it now?

Every good videogame player knows that you don't detonate the smart bomb when you've got one enemy; you want until you're swarmed. You don't pick up the 100% life pack until you're as close to 0% life as humanly possible.**

No sane CEO, CFO, or any other competent businessman would shoot their load this early in the game. No, Wizards will cave, and you can mark my words... But it won't be until their backs are against the wall. When they need that final infusion of cash to gracefully exit the program.

Only idiots will cheer when the Power Nine are reprinted. To the intelligentsia, they'll realize it for what it is: The death knell of Magic the Gathering.

Me, I can wait a while longer.

Does WotC believe this? Is it true? I'm not sure.

[doomhed]

Well, then, now I just have to get them all in one place  :lol:  despite having spent over $200 on drains this year alone already.

Technically you could Probably Get Away with hitting the R&D building with a bus. Man would that make a great headline.