Stroke unrestricted

[Bulls on Parade]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dci/announce/dci20041201a

Not sure why it's up yet, but it is. Not too exciting, just thought I'd post it and ruin everyone's excitement  

[leviat]

It's too bad, I was really hoping to see Islands banned.

But seriously, I don't think there was really anything out there that merited restriction.

[Moxlotus]

I like it.  If something needed to be restricted then let the top 8s show that something is dominating.

[Bulls on Parade]

I was more excited to see something cool unrestricted.

[Komatteru]

I am relieved that nothing was restricted because there isn't anything that deserved it.  Our format continues on as it has been, and all is well with the world.  This has all been gone over so many times that I have little else to say about it.

I'd imagine that there might be a slew of people angry about something from Affinity not getting the axe in Standard, but that's nothing we're too concerned about (but it's the most interesting part of the announcement at least).

[Bastian]

If anyone was thinking about MWS being restricted and is happy because it wasn't let me just remember you of something...

The reasons why MWS doesn't completely OWN every top 8 are simple:

You need a set of four PLUS a whole set of power to make it work. You'd need a 10 proxy tournament to see just how much this card could dominate.

The fact that it's a very rare $200 card doesn't help in more people having access to it, so the only reason you're not seeing top 8's flooded with Mishra's Lotus decks is simply because not everyone can afford them and they're pretty rare. Try to make a 10-proxy tourney and see just how many Workshops you can count...

[Moxlotus]

Most tournaments I see are 10 proxy, and WS isn't dominating them.

[Lost In Admiration]

This is healthy for the environment.  I'm glad to see bad cards get unrestricted.

EDIT: I play the same 10-proxies as Phil and it's pretty true that MWS doesn't dominate.  Generally the field is balanced.

[Necrologia]

I guess Wizards is just being cautious and doing the unrestrictions little at a time, but is there any reason not to take Mind Over Matter off the list as well? As poor as Voltaic Key is, at least you can argue that's it's a cheap artifact for academy that can make some mana on its own. But MoM? Is there any deck that wants to play any at all?

Hooray on nothing getting the boot as well. The format is great right now, and I hope it stays this balanced for as long as possible.

[Xman]

I guess Wizards is just being cautious and doing the unrestrictions little at a time, but is there any reason not to take Mind Over Matter off the list as well? As poor as Voltaic Key is, at least you can argue that's it's a cheap artifact for academy that can make some mana on its own. But MoM? Is there any deck that wants to play any at all?

Yes, take MOM & Key off the list.  Watch the new combo appear.

[Moxlotus]

I guess Wizards is just being cautious and doing the unrestrictions little at a time, but is there any reason not to take Mind Over Matter off the list as well? As poor as Voltaic Key is, at least you can argue that's it's a cheap artifact for academy that can make some mana on its own. But MoM? Is there any deck that wants to play any at all?

Yes, take MOM & Key off the list.  Watch the new combo appear.

Because clearly a 3 card combo involving 2uuuu is better than Metal Worker+Staff...

[SimpleHiker]

New announcement sounds good to me. Easy does it, is the best corse of action. There is no rush to dump a bunch of cards off the restricted list all at the same time. I think DCI is using some caution and going slow opposed to having a big mess on there hands if they remove a bunch of cards and one ore more cards gets quickly rebroken.

SH

[Anusien]

Aside from all the bad "Stroke yourself" jokes, I think there was no harm in unrestricting.  There are much better combo finishes, and much better draw spells.  I think they could have unrestricted more, but unrestricting a bunch of cards at once could lead to some nasty interactions.  The last thing Wizards wants to do is have to re-restrict, or even worse, emergency restrict because they missed something in testing.

[Bram]

All I have to say is: thank you, God!

[rvs]

bah, I was hoping they'd restrict trinisphere.... that card is ruining t1 :/

[Conan_barberarn]

bah, I was hoping they'd restrict trinisphere.... that card is ruining t1 :/

Yup, that's right! The problem is that everyone here on TMD thinks that combo will run amok if they restricted it. Of course it wouldn't, since combo didn't dominate before 3sphere. People would simply start sideboarding against combo instead of WS-decks.

The way I see it, one of the following should have been resticted: MWS, 3sphere of CoW. The WS docks have had a firm grip on Sweden for more thant 2 years now. Before 3sphere they weren't out of control as Sphere of Resistance<< 3Sphere. When they started playing 3sphere you could allways waste the WS which would cripple them. Now this doesn't cut it anymore since they sooner or later will get a CoW into play and start recurring lands. Alot of folks here on TMD seem to think that wasting WS after a 1st turn 3sphere tilts the game in my favor. I don't agree since I still need 3 turns with consecutive landdrops to be able to do anything. If you waste a 1st turn WS Stax will still have 5 lands left that produce more than one mana and will therefore likely break the lock before you can, not counting that they will be one landdrop ahead of you.

The only thing CoW has accomplished btw, is making landstill and fish a whole lot worse and making WS-decks better. If WS didnt exist then it would be fairer since all decks could play it in the tempo it was designed to.

You allways talk alot of statistics that should back they restricted policy. Why will you only count statstics from the US? In the past years only a few of the bigger tourneys here in Sweden have been won by a deck other than STAX. They are dominating virtually every top8! I allready know that US-players generally aren't interrested in playing good STAX and every time I (or  someone from Sweden) try to explain card choices in Swedish STAX I/we get flamed.

Dont blame our dominace of Stax on absence of hate either. If you're going to a tournament in Sweden noone has less than half their sideboard dedicated solely against STAX.

I'm seriosly thinking about giving up magic because of this...

/Gustav

[Bram]

Your argument seems to imply the restriction of CoW rather than 3sphere, though.

Dont blame our dominace of Stax on absence of hate either. If you're going to a tournament in Sweden noone has less than half their sideboard dedicated solely against STAX.

Then how come the same isn't true for the rest of the civilised world?

Why will you only count statstics from the US? In the past years only a few of the bigger tourneys here in Sweden have been won by a deck other than STAX.

Zherbus and Philip count the statistics of every tourney result they can get a hold of, AFAIK. If they don't count yours, it's either because it's too small or because you failed to post it accordingly. Also: that's just silly. If every tournament has been won by STAX, it should have occured to some people to play hate decks and possibly devote their WHOLE board to it to hate it out. I mean, from what you're saying, you WILL face it in the finals anyway.

I'm seriosly thinking about giving up magic because of this...

That is very, very sad. You pissed of coz you can't win? Try harder!

[Conan_barberarn]

Your argument seems to imply the restriction of CoW rather than 3sphere, though.

Either one of the three cards will do just fine. But if you look at the cards separete, WS is the only one worth restricting. 3sphere would be a laugh without WS and CoW is to slow without WS.

Then how come the same isn't true for the rest of the civilised world?

Because none of you US players will play the deck like we play it. Every time I try to explain cardchoices you simply ignore it. I've tried nomerous times to explain why, for instance, TFK>>>>> Meditate and why you shouldn't play black or white but you won't listen. All I'm asking for here is that a few of you guys take one of our lists a play it at the next big tourney.

If every tournament has been won by STAX, it should have occured to some people to play hate decks and possibly devote their WHOLE board to it to hate it out. I mean, from what you're saying, you WILL face it in the finals anyway.

Believe me it has occurred to us. But out of curiosity, what kind of hatedeck would you play? You'll still have to be able to put up a fight against the other decks your going to face.

The three most important components for beating STAX is IMO: FoW wasteland and a stable manabase including red. Then you'll be able to side in RoR which is the best and most reliable hate there is. Flux is good if you can get it out but it's not that hard to play around. The way I see it your probable on your way to winning anyway if you have 3 lands untapped main phase.

/Gustav

[Bram]

Because none of you US players will play the deck like we play it. Every time I try to explain cardchoices you simply ignore it. I've tried nomerous times to explain why, for instance, TFK>>>>> Meditate and why you shouldn't play black or white but you won't listen. All I'm asking for here is that a few of you guys take one of our lists a play it at the next big tourney.

For one thing: I'm not a US player. I'm from The Netherlands. I have yet to encouter a Stax buils that DOES play black or white. All the good players over here who have a lot experience with the deck (including the guy that more or less invented the archetype...) play non-back or white versions, and most of them (if not all) choose TFK over Meditate these days. I am forced to wonder what makes your list so special. It sure doesn't sound any different from the Stax lists that appear in Eindhoven and Duelmen. Could you perhaps link me to one?

Believe me it has occurred to us. But out of curiosity, what kind of hatedeck would you play? You'll still have to be able to put up a fight against the other decks your going to face.

My teams new Workshop deck (aggro with Transmute Artifact) puts up a real good fight after sideboarding. Oath doesn't appear to do too bad against it, either. And I hear everyone whining about first turn 3sphere off a Shop, but there's only a 15%(!) chance of getting both in your opening hand (18% if the other guy goes first). This means that it will happen, roughly, once every 6 or so games (so, even more roughly, 2 or 3 times in a tourney for any given Stax player). I refuse to believe that Stax is unbeatable. I have seen it done many times over. Stax is played a lot over here, too, by decent players with decent builds. It is good, possibly really good, and maybe the best deck, but it is NOT dominant or unbeatable.

[Conan_barberarn]

For one thing: I'm not a US player. I'm from The Netherlands. I have yet to encouter a Stax buils that DOES play black or white. All the good players over here who have a lot experience with the deck (including the guy that more or less invented the archetype...) play non-back or white versions, and most of them (if not all) choose TFK over Meditate these days. I am forced to wonder what makes your list so special. It sure doesn't sound any different from the Stax lists that appear in Eindhoven and Duelmen. Could you perhaps link me to one?

Sorry about me mixing up nationalities... If you play TFK and only red and blue I'm sure that our lists are pretty similar. My impression is that since Sweden have the highest concentration of WS:s per player (I'm allmost 100% sure on this one but feel free to correct me) it's is natural to assume that Sweden is in the lead with development of STAX.

My teams new Workshop deck (aggro with Transmute Artifact) puts up a real good fight after sideboarding. Oath doesn't appear to do too bad against it, either. And I hear everyone whining about first turn 3sphere off a Shop, but there's only a 15%(!) chance of getting both in your opening hand (18% if the other guy goes first). This means that it will happen, roughly, once every 6 or so games (so, even more roughly, 2 or 3 times in a tourney for any given Stax player). I refuse to believe that Stax is unbeatable. I have seen it done many times over. Stax is played a lot over here, too, by decent players with decent builds. It is good, possibly really good, and maybe the best deck, but it is NOT dominant or unbeatable.

I left out the possiblity of combating STAX with a deck that carries WS of their own. Every deck with WS have a pretty good shot at taking them down since they wont feel the impact of 3sphere as heavilly as other decks.

The thing about 15% doesn't really make sence to me. Just because there is an small chance doesn't make it less good does it? WHen it happens it genereally wins the game and a combo that good should be restricted IMO. This is a longshot but imagine if necro was at its best 1st turn (like 3sphere) would you say the same thing about necro? That there is only 15% chance of having necro+ ritual or lotus in starthand?

No deck is unbeatable and yes, STAX does fizzle out a bit more than the average deck but it is in my view a little too good.

/Gustav

[jpmeyer]

For the fourth straight year, the DCI missed the REAL problem cards in Type 1:



@Conan

In the US's defense, tournies here aren't as conducive to Workshop decks because of the number of proxies allowed here and IIRC, many, many of the Mishra's Workshops that do exist have made their way over to Europe because of favorable exchange rates.

That said, there were quite a few Workshop decks in the t8 of SCG Chicago.

[Bram]

Sorry about me mixing up nationalities...

No problem

My impression is that since Sweden have the highest concentration of WS:s per player (I'm allmost 100% sure on this one but feel free to correct me)

I really wouldn't know. I wasn't aware Sweden had such a high number of Shops floating around. It's interesting at the very least. I'll look into it and see if there's a significant difference (Dr. Sylvan should have the data).

I left out the possiblity of combating STAX with a deck that carries WS of their own.

Yes, I agree with that call. Allthough it's not quite as clear-cut a 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'-scenario as combating Stax with Stax, I agree that the argument that you can sucessfully combat it with any other Workshop deck hardly speaks against its restriction. Even so, there's non-shop decks out there that can bring it home.

The thing about 15% doesn't really make sence to me. Just because there is an small chance doesn't make it less good does it?

Ofcourse it does. Something's only good if it's consistent. If this broken stuff would happen 1% of the time, we wouldn't even be talking about it.

would you say the same thing about necro? That there is only 15% chance of having necro+ ritual or lotus in starthand?

Actually those odds are smaller, even, since you'd need to have either Lotus and Necro or black land/mox + ritual + necro. But to answer your question: no. This is partly because Necro decks tend to have cheap ways of manipulating the library (demonic tutor + consultation) unlike Stax (thereby actually increaing the odds of an early necro a lot), and partly because a turn one Necro in a Combo deck means the opponent either drops a 3sphere or chalice on his next turn, or dies. And this is most certainly not the case with 3shpere. While a turn 1 3sphere is definitely a real hassle and increases that randomness of the format, I have won my way through one a heck of a lot more often than I have won my way through a turn 1 Necro. It's comparing apples to oranges.

but it is in my view a little too good.

Again, I agree. But we don't restric stuff for being a little too good; we restict it for being format distorting.

[Revvik]

...partly because a turn one Necro in a Combo deck means the opponent either drops a 3sphere or chalice on his next turn, or dies.

The Combo player would have to be smart enough (at least in TPS-esque decks) to have paid an amount of life to draw into the necessary Force of Will in such occasion.  As a control player, given most circumstances, 1st turn Necro is scarier than Trinisphere.

In most cases, I'd rather see the guy sitting across from me drop Shop --> 3Sphere.

And seeing as how someone mentioned gratuitous Stroke comments:

All I have to say is: thank you, God!

Bram can finally Stroke himself to his heart's content!

[Bram]

Heh. I was actually referring to the value of my set of Shops not plummeting, but yeah, I guess that works too

[Eddie]

The three most important components for beating STAX is IMO: FoW wasteland and a stable manabase including red. Then you'll be able to side in RoR which is the best and most reliable hate there is.

If you have that much problems with STAX in your meta, why don't you play Rack and Ruin maindeck?

[Mixing Mike]

bah, I was hoping they'd restrict Trinisphere.... that card is ruining t1 :/

Agreed.  However, I can understand why they didn't, it's not like the metagame is out of balance.  I would've liked to see Volactic Key get unrestricted.  I guess it makes you tap your Metalworker again, not like you'd ever really need to.

[Hi-Val]

Yup, that's right! The problem is that everyone here on TMD thinks that combo will run amok if they restricted it. Of course it wouldn't, since combo didn't dominate before 3sphere. People would simply start sideboarding against combo instead of WS-decks.


/Gustav

Danger danger, bad logic! Long.dec DID (potentially) dominate before Trinisphere. It was coming into it's highest popularity in Nov-Dec right before it got restricted to oblivion. If people learned how to play it right, it would dominate the format, as it did in several metagames. Trinisphere came into existence after Long died.

[Wollblad]

It's fun that Wizards dear to unrestrict cards, but I think it would be even more healthy for the format if they banned some cards. Much of the discussion of Stax boils down to loosing the die-roll. Whatever deck I'm playing, I always feel that half the battle is lost already when not beeing able to go first. I'm not sure exactly how to achieve this, but a start would be to ban Yawgmoth's Will and Tolarian Academy, perhaps also Black Lotus! Such a banning must of course be followed up by some restrictions, but I believe that a format which is only one turn slower, still containing most of the powerful cards, would be more fun to play since you don't have to loose the match on the die-roll.

[Methuselahn]

It's fun that Wizards dear to unrestrict cards, but I think it would be even more healthy for the format if they banned some cards. Much of the discussion of Stax boils down to loosing the die-roll. Whatever deck I'm playing, I always feel that half the battle is lost already when not beeing able to go first. I'm not sure exactly how to achieve this, but a start would be to ban Yawgmoth's Will and Tolarian Academy, perhaps also Black Lotus! Such a banning must of course be followed up by some restrictions, but I believe that a format which is only one turn slower, still containing most of the powerful cards, would be more fun to play since you don't have to loose the match on the die-roll.

Ban black lotus?? thats crazy talk.  Also, why restriction 'debates' go sour on tmd.  Maybe we should just make the die roll best 2 out of 3.  

[Necrologia]

Banning Black Lotus would be the worst idea ever. It's easily on par with unrestricting LED and Jar (<3 SCG boards).

Aside from costing lots of people lots of money and the whole sacred cow thing, doing so would accomplish nothing. Just about every deck in existence runs it, so pulling it out leaves everything exactly how it is now, only with tons of angry customers.

At best you manage to hurt combo as they tend to rely on lotus more than other decks. How that does anything to hurt Stax is beyond me.