ravager and workshop

[jpmeyer]

A lot of people were clamoring for slash expecting some bannings in Standard to nerf Ravager Affinity.  None happened, and the reason more or less was that there were simply too many cards that would need to get hit because of replacements.  In other words, they would have to take off and nuke the site from orbit, banning probably something like 5+ cards (Ravager, Disciple, Vial, Thoughtcast, etc.)  If they hit say, just Ravager, Atog is waiting.  Disciple?  Rigger.  And so on.  Of course, there is another option: hit the artifact lands and cut off the mana that makes the deck work so well.  If you do do this though, you have to also consider the fact that 1) you are banning 5 cards and 2) you are cutting a huge swath across the format.

Workshop decks look like the exact same thing to me.  Workshop gets hit?  No biggie.  Just run 4 Ancient Tomb.  Ancient Tomb isn't even that much worse than Workshop since it can do stuff like cast Meditate.  And then behind Tomb, you've also got City of Traitors, Metalworker, Gilded Lotus, and the dozen or so already existing restricted mana artifacts.  What if they just hit Trinisphere and Crucible as well?  Does that even matter if you can run Intuition/Goblin Welder and/or a large tutor suite?

If--and I'm not saying that artifact decks are or are not too powerful right now--something needs to be done, it looks like there is probably going to need to be a massive overhaul because otherwise you just sit there cutting off card after card for only minute decreases in power level.  That's a big deal.

EDIT: Warned myself and then banned my IP for starting a B/R thread.

[Matt]

If--and I'm not saying that artifact decks are or are not too powerful right now--something needs to be done, it looks like there is probably going to need to be a massive overhaul because otherwise you just sit there cutting off card after card for only minute decreases in power level. That's a big deal.

This is equivalent to the old arguments about power creep and critical mass. It's a fundamental characteristic (some would say failing) of vintage - you don't have one Timetwister, the others are just called Wheel and Windfall and TinkerForJar. You don't have one Shop, the others just have names like Tomb and City.

[Necropotenza]

The only problem I see with Shop decks is Trinisphere. Its banning would bring those decks back to where they once were, very powerful decks but fair nonetheless. I don't think that crucible needs fixing as you can work around it if you build your mana base knowing it exists.

[jpmeyer]

This is equivalent to the old arguments about power creep and critical mass. It's a fundamental characteristic (some would say failing) of vintage - you don't have one Timetwister, the others are just called Wheel and Windfall and TinkerForJar. You don't have one Shop, the others just have names like Tomb and City.

Exactly.  And this is very important in the case of Workshop because if you restrict it, you mad mess up the price and piss off a ton of people.  But if restricting it is only making the deck a tiny bit worse and not worse enough to really matter, then the restriction is pointless.

[virtual]

I would contend that the "problem" with Stax decks though, isn't the ability to get Trinisphere Ever, it is the ability to get Trinisphere on turn 1.  After the game has gone on for 3 turns (Vintage Length), Trinisphere can still be potent, but the best window for its appearance has been missed.  Unless restricting Trinisphere would still allow for 3-4 other ways to get it first turn, it would not be as devastating of a force. (urm... tinker, Dt + cast, vamp+ancestral+cast?, transmute artifacts on the first turn... most of these are ridiculous)

Workshop could be replaced, (albeit decks would be different).  Crucible can be a house whenever it arrives, so tutoring for it is viable.  Plenty of decks only play a single crucible as it is.

That's it for now before this turns into another Crucible/Trinisphere/Workshop "who needs to go?" thread.

[Methuselahn]

Interesting.

1.5 gets an overhaul from being Vintage minus restricted cards, to having its' own identity.  Are you implying that Vintage would be overhauled to being Legacy with restricted cards?   Am I reading too far in between the lines?  With this logic, it seems like you'd have to restrict Mana Drain because you resticted Bazaar because Workshop was restricted, etc.  I just think the effects would reach beyond just artifact/shop decks.

[jpmeyer]

I'm thinking more in terms of how much acceleration and how much tutoring is in the format.  Artifact decks are the big focus in most peole's minds right now, which is why I used it as an example.

[Triple_S]

In many ways I see the current meta as a rock paper scissors of:
control--combo--MWS 3Sphere

Its just an idea on my part, but if you hit the 3Sphere then combo gets out of hand and you have to hit something there (Ritual?) and if you hit something there then control perhaps gets out of hand and you hit something on that front (Drain? [just hypothetical, don't flame please]).  It very well could be a slipperly slope or atleast a solution that can not be eased by only one restriction.  In that way I agree w/ JP:  the current meta does not have a single card you can hit, you would have to hit a suite of them since there are many cards that are easily replaceable.  The format has a slew of degenerate first turn plays now, but they all keep themselves in check to some extent.  (Any MWS player who has had their 3Sphere hijacked by an opponents Waste heavy draw knows how maddening it is).  

That ends my somewhat rambling rant, I hope it came across somewhat clearly.

[Machinus]

Going alone with your premise JP, if something needed to be done, I think we are looking at a different kind of intervention than what we have seen with decks like Long and GAT. I don't mean axe Gush, axe LED, problem solved. I mean the type of power that shop exhibits is different from the type of power that we have seen before. While certainly shops have a very strong presence, and as we have seen continue to do extremely well in very large tournaments, they aren't the same kind of "distorting" and "broken" that we have seen from overly dominant decks in the past.

I am not going to go into the self-imposed limitations and weaknesses of the lock -> fat strategies that are so successful. Zherbus did some interesting analysis last week about the effects of hitting sphere, shop, and crucible. Considering that, the unsettlingly large reserve of lock parts and acceleration, and the substantial weaknesses of the shop archetype (inconsistency, vulnerability to hate, even the rarity of shops), I think that - whether this is a "problem" or not - this presence is something that we are going to have to accept, if we haven't already.

On a side note, restricting crucible - for the purpose of addressing this issue - could be a really poor idea. One per deck isn't a lot less than people are using, and crucibles are good against these same decks. It would have the weakest impact on these decks overall, while limiting other decks' options against them.

[majestyk1136]

@ triple S: This is a subject that I've explored recently in different forums.

http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=270861

I refer to it as channelization.  My application for full membership was slapped down when I submitted the smallish article at the top of this thread in my full member exam.  Glad to see that I'm not the only one who's noticed this trend.

[giddygorgon]

I really don't think anything needs to go.  MWS decks have an inherent inconsistency, they really need MWS or other large sources of fast mana to function.  Having to mulligan a hand because you didn't have one of four cards in your deck really hurts, and it happens sometimes.  There are many good artifact destruction cards available to T1, and although sometimes MWS-3Sphere is a mindless win, if they have to mull to get that, it's fine with me.  Triple S makes a very good point in that if you restrict MWS then combo will go nuts until you restrict some of its tools, which then forces you to restrict some of controls goodies.  That's no fun, MWS decks are very good, but not so dominant we need to be hasty and restrict anything, especially not shop itself. (if we had to restrict something it would be 3Sphere in my opinion)  Restricting 3Sphere would really hurt workshop decks a lot, but they would still be quite good.  SOR is good, but you can still keep the Mox, Mox, Land hands.  I think that the Meta is balanced and nothing really has to go.

[Nantuko Rice]

If workshop got restricted and other lands such as Ancient Tomb took it's place... I would be happier. If ancient tombs can cast other spells such as thirst and meditate, why aren't they seen more often being used in 4-of's along with workshops?

Having 2 mana on turn one and 3 mana on turn one are very different. To get a first turn trinisphere, one would need an ancient tomb and a mox, lotus,  or other cheap artifact mana (Yes i know, there are about 8+, and an artifact deck is already likely running all of them).

And the 2 damage on each activation? It'll add up... and when I'm playing FCG... I like the extra shock to their face.

[jpmeyer]

Going alone with your premise JP, if something needed to be done, I think we are looking at a different kind of intervention than what we have seen with decks like Long and GAT. I don't mean axe Gush, axe LED, problem solved. I mean the type of power that shop exhibits is different from the type of power that we have seen before.

Long and GAT actually are really good examples of "cut this, problem solved".  If we look at what they cut, they didn't just cut a lynchpin card--they also cut a mana accelerant (since in GAT's case, Gush does both.)

Mana acceleration is the elephant in the room that nobody sees in Type 1.  We don't notice it, but it's there and it's a massive, looming presence.  Workshop decks and combo decks seem like they are the only decks that get people to notice this because they run so much more than the average deck--which still runs a lot to begin with as well!

[Machinus]

Going alone with your premise JP, if something needed to be done, I think we are looking at a different kind of intervention than what we have seen with decks like Long and GAT. I don't mean axe Gush, axe LED, problem solved. I mean the type of power that shop exhibits is different from the type of power that we have seen before.

Long and GAT actually are really good examples of "cut this, problem solved".  If we look at what they cut, they didn't just cut a lynchpin card--they also cut a mana accelerant (since in GAT's case, Gush does both.)

Yes, I understand this, that's why I said it. The problem we face now with shop is different because of the many problematic cards (as opposed to one or two very broken ones) - but it is different ALSO because of the way that the shop cards manifest themselves in the environment. I wanted to point this out as a much less obvious difference between previous "issues" and the one we are now addressing.

[Guru]

Having 2 mana on turn one and 3 mana on turn one are very different. To get a first turn trinisphere, one would need an ancient tomb and a mox, lotus,  or other cheap artifact mana (Yes i know, there are about 8+, and an artifact deck is already likely running all of them).
.

I think this is the main issue here. Not the fact that TSphere and Crucible are doing what they were meant to, but the fact that they can be consisitently accelerated out turn one with only one other card, the workshop. Granted replacements exist in the form of Ancient tomb etc, however i think this route is more acceptable in that it alone doesn't power out a TS or Crucible but needs an additonal accelerant. The reality would probably be that turn 2 Sphere's and Crucibles would then become the norm, but its this additional turn that is required in my opinion. Sans Wizards errataring cards to say "cannot be played till turn 2" restricting MWS would seem to be the only way to generate this additional turn.

[Nantuko Rice]

note: i should've added this to what i wrote before, but people have already responded since then and there are some things i'd like to respond to.

Workshop decks (even if workshop gets restricted I think we'll probably still continue calling them workshop decks), will need to devote alot of more space to mana acceleration to get off a first turn trinisphere if they see it is that important (5 moxes, 2 gheto moxes, 1 lotus, 1 ghetto lotus, ESG's, sol ring, monolith, mana crypt, mana vault, dark ritual).

They may end up playing brown/x hybrids just for accelerants. Black for rituals, green for ESG. I don't mind seeing 3-4 cards played to get a first turn trinisphere (one ancient tomb, one accelerant, possibly second accelerant, and then the sphere).  

If turn two 3phere and crucibles become the norm, then first turn could be used to clear the way with duress, bait with welder, etc. Second turn 3phere also allows the opponent to drop his own moxen and accelerants. If trinisphere had some sort of clause that said "...excluding mana sources and artifacts or creatures that tap for mana," it wouldn't be as good obviously, but less people would be arguing against workshop as well.

[andrewpate]

Good point.  The best reason to restrict Trinisphere, if it really does need to be, is that it would be harder to get out on turn 1.  The difference between turn 1 and turn 2 is huge for that card, since it gives opponents a chance to use all the broken mana in their opening hand. Going, "Workshop, Mox, Lotus, Trinisphere, go" while going first is grossly unfair, while, "Workshop, Mox, Lotus, Intuition, Trinisphere" is significantly less likely, not to mention you just about have to have the Lotus.  More likely the Trinisphere will hit turn 2 or 3.  And for me, that's why it is Trinisphere and not Workshop that needs to be restricted (again, if something needs to be, which I'm not 100% sure of).

[Das_Boot]

I think restricting Workshop really wouldn't matter that much, as there are enough things to make up for it.  Playing like one MWS, 4 Tombs, Lotus, and City of Traitors if necessary, they run like 10 accelerants that turn that into a turn one 3sphere if they haven't just drawn the Lotus or MWS, and running ESG wouldn't even force them to use another color.  Also, the thing about Trinisphere is that you can run all the answers you want, but they now cost 3 mana, and a 3sphere followed up by a Crucible or Smokestack or Welder or even a fattie puts you so far ahead in tempo that it is almost like winning right there.  They should have hit Trinisphere, as it is the real culprit, even allowing aggro decks to win major tournaments!!

[Machinus]

Having 2 mana on turn one and 3 mana on turn one are very different. To get a first turn trinisphere, one would need an ancient tomb and a mox, lotus,  or other cheap artifact mana (Yes i know, there are about 8+, and an artifact deck is already likely running all of them).
.

Sans Wizards errataring cards to say "cannot be played till turn 2" restricting MWS would seem to be the only way to generate this additional turn.

If they really wanted to murder 3sphere, they could make it CIPT. But I think leaving shop players with 1 good 3sphere is a much better idea.

[Raph Caron]

JpMeyer:

Exactly. And this is very important in the case of Workshop because if you restrict it, you mad mess up the price and piss off a ton of people. But if restricting it is only making the deck a tiny bit worse and not worse enough to really matter, then the restriction is pointless.

It's not totally pointless, if you keep on restricting stuff afterwards. However, that will indeed make the whole process very lengthy.

So, either you take the long, safe route of restricting a card every 3 months, ending up with the desired power level in about 1-3 years, OR you make a new, blind restriction criteria, i.e all 0-1-2 cc cards that produce more mana than they cost to play are restricted. With this new criteria however, you end up restricting mostly fair cards (Cabal Ritual, Desperate Ritual, etc.).

Personally, I wouldn't mind the new criteria idea : that way, you make sure that skill-less, lucky broken starts, while still possible, are limited to the maximum.

Once this is done, problem cards become easier to spot, since you got rid of the acceleration option earlier.

Edit : Took Bastian's post in consideration.

[Bastian]

Hasn't Cabal Ritual actually seen play in Belcher and in some other combo deck..?

[Milton]

How often are people not getting to even play the game because their opponent has a first turn Sphere, second turn Chalice?  Too many to keep the game healthy.

Immagine how different the game would be if:

Trinisphere and Challice cost 4 mana, instead of three.

or

Mishra's Workshop gave 2 colorless mana, instead of three.

The three casting cost is the problem, a problem made managable by the restriction of Workshop.  City of Traitors and Ancient Tomb can cover for Workshop and make the first turn broken play a little harder to accopmlish.  Instead of Workshop + Trinisphere you would need a Mox + Tomb + Trinisphere.  The two card, turn one combo becomes a three card, turn one combo (unless you draw the restricted Workshop plus Trinsiphere).   As for Metalworker et. al., for purposes of casting early Trinispheres, they are far more reliant on turn two than turn one.

Workshop was unrestriced five years ago (or so) when the climate was far different.  The proliferation of game-altering, highly powerful artifacts that cost three mana clearly warrant the re-restriction of Workshop.  Tell me why I'm wrong?

[jpmeyer]

You may very well be correct.  My argument isn't "Workshop should be restricted" or "Workshop should not be restricted."  It's "If you're planning on restricting Workshop, you may need to restrict more than just Workshop to appreciably drop the power level."

[Matt]

Why do people assume that the "I have four different Timetwisters" principle doesn't apply to Trinisphere? Are Chalice and Sphere of Resistance really so much worse than Trinisphere that combo will overcome it, but it couldn't have done so against Trinisphere? And again, it's only restriction, not banning. One out of every four MWS+prison piece hands is still going to be MWs+3Sphere, and hence just as strong as pre-restriction.

Trinisphere:prison :: Black Vise:aggro

[Hi-Val]

Another consideration is whether Workshop decks are inherently broken or broken based on current cards in them. Maybe a restriction could reflect toning the deck down into something competitive, but not overwhelming. Perhaps a tactical strike on say, Trinisphere for example, might save it from nuking from orbit. What's the consensus on restricting down to reasonable levels, such as was done with GAT?

[rvs]

Another consideration is whether Workshop decks are inherently broken or broken based on current cards in them. Maybe a restriction could reflect toning the deck down into something competitive, but not overwhelming. Perhaps a tactical strike on say, Trinisphere for example, might save it from nuking from orbit. What's the consensus on restricting down to reasonable levels, such as was done with GAT?

I totally agree with Hi-Val. I don't think MWS is a problem card, but the interaction it has with Trinisphere is what's pushing it over the top. There weren't nearly as many complains about MWS when Trinisphere didn't exist yet.

[Klep]

Trinisphere:prison :: Black Vise:aggro

Though I'm by no means a fan of Trinisphere, let's not get into bad comparisons here.  Everything used Black Vise, not just aggro.  That said, it is true that the arguments for restricting the two are much the same.  The biggest difference is that only Workshop decks can effectively utilize Trinisphere.  The key thing to answer, therefore, is that does this work for or against Trinisphere.  Is it better that only one class of decks can benefit from the randomness, or worse?

[Matt]

It's a pretty good analogy.

"<card> is used in <archetype> and is too good on turn one, but rapidly becomes worse - it's weak on turn three, and almost useless on turn five. When playing with <card>, you really want to go first, so that you can get <card> into play before your opponent can drop all his fast mana."

Since both pairs can fit that paragraph, I'd say that sounds like a pretty good analogy. Of course there will always be some difference you can point out - that's why analogies work, they let you highlight the relevant differences (or lack thereof). They're really the same in many ways, including the one that matters most: the restriction of both falls under the same restriction-criterion, unrecoverable early-game swing.

[dandan]

I'm pretty sure that Trinisphere would be restricted if it cost 1 to cast like Black Vise instead of 3. The problem isn't Trinisphere, it is Trinisphere being cast on turn 1.

Apologies for stating the obvious.

[ctthespian]

One out of every four MWS+prison piece hands is still going to be MWs+3Sphere, and hence just as strong as pre-restriction.

Trinisphere:prison :: Black Vise:aggro

If this is the case that 1 in 4 hands of workshop prison is going to have a Workshop and a Trinisphere then a control deck has equal if not better odds of having a FOW and a blue card.  Thus eleminating said Trinisphere.

Trinispheres are most effective first turn before your oppent gets a turn.  After that they are still powerful in shifting tempo of ceartin decks but lose there power as the game progresses.

My feelings on the Workshop and in this case the Workshop/Trinisphere combination is similar to what happend with Dark Ritual and Necropotence.  Necropotence was the more offending card in that situation.

There's talk of Workshop decks making more numerous showings in Top 8's.  Could it be that popularity of these decks have just grown and larger percentage of players are piloting them at events?  (Data is rarely collected on non top 8 decks or the make up of the playing field.)  Or is it that they are just that much more effective now?  Also it is possible that larger proxy limits (there are far less playsets of workshops than sets of power 9) in tournaments are allowing otherwise unplayed workshop decks from seeing play, thus we see a rise in top 8 attendance of workshop decks?

Balance is still present in Vinatage right now.  Workshops are holding no more dominace than Keeper decks of years past.  I would not fear meeting a Workshop deck piloting my control deck (UW Still) in any tournament.  If they do start holding a more dominant position then talk of what is causing that dominace should be considered.

-Keith