ravager and workshop

[Raph Caron]

I think it comes down to :

To have a healthy environment (which, IMO, should be low on broken first turn plays), on average, how much mana should a deck have available on first turn?

My personal answer is between 1 and 2. 2 seems alright.

I stated in the past that I define a broken start by the use of 3 manas on the first turn.

I believe that Workshop and Ritual make the decks that contain them have an average closer to 2-3.

[Milton]

If this is the case that 1 in 4 hands of workshop prison is going to have a Workshop and a Trinisphere then a control deck has equal if not better odds of having a FOW and a blue card. Thus eleminating said Trinisphere.

So you play Workshop/Trinisphere and you run over anything without Force of Will?  Play Workshop or play Force of Will, then, becomes the choice.  I don't really like those options.  This can greatly limit the health of the format.  Perhaps we are already in somewhat or an unhealthy format with Workshop/Trinisphere and we just aren't realizing it yet.

Right now, for example, when I am sitting around goldfishing, I just assume a first turn Trinisphere.  Is that healthy?  

Either way, I am convinced that the problem isn't the Trinisphere, but the Workshop.  My fear is that a restriction of Workshop won't be enough to limit Trinispheres power, though, and it will in fact increase the number of Trinsiphere decks that we see at events, leading to the eventual restriction of Trinisphere.

Follow my logic here: Assume a restriction of Workshop.  As Workshop decks (with a restricted Workshop and four Trinispheres) find suitable replacements for Workshops, the deck becomes easier to proxy (you only need to proxy one Workshop now, saving proxy space for Moxes).  This means that the deck can still be highly effective, but will see even more play, meaning that Trinisphere might have to be restricted as well in the end.  So the argument comes full circle.  Would we have to even have a restricted Workshop if Trinisphere was restricted in the first place?  

Either way, I am convinced that the only reason that Workshop is unrestricted is because of the incredibly high dollar value of the card.  If it was a $10 uncommon (like Stripmine), then it would be restricted very quickly.  As is, though, the DCI is having a tough time restricting an expensive card.  This means that the DCI is, by doing nothing, basically admitting that the secondary card market can influence it's decisions.  Not good policy for many reasons.  Having said that, I certianly understand why they are slow to act, assuiming the dollar value of the card is the sticking point.

[dicemanx]

Restricting Workshop is overkill if the problem is primarily Trinisphere. I want to retain Workshop in the environment for three reasons:

1) It has spawned numerous interesting archetypes
2) I like to play with broken cards, as long as they don't create near unrecoverable game swings
3) I don't want the value of my Workshops to go down (so sue me)

Number two can be readily addressed by just getting rid of Trinisphere. Its the Trini specifically which is causing the near unrecoverable game swing when played on turn 1, even though its the Workshop that increases the likelihood of the card coming down turn 1.


For those in favor of restricting Workshop, I would like you to address what you'd find so problematic if the environment didn't have Trinisphere in it (as a four-of anyways). Workshop decks hardly dominate as it is, so it will not be a dominance/distortion issue. So what *is* the issue? I have a very specific reason why why I don't want Trinisphere in the environment, and it has nothing to do with dominance/distortion. Remove Trini and I have little to complain about outside of Belcher (CoW is another problem, but that card is easily abused in non-Workshop decks, so getting rid of MWS will hardly stop CoW).

[theorigamist]

1) It has spawned numerous interesting archetypes

As a sub-reason, Workshop has spawned numerous viable aggro decks.  I don't know about other people, but I think aggro decks are good for the format, and Wizards outspokenly loves aggro decks.

[Kowal]

It's also important to point out that Ancient Tomb exists as an almost-workshop, but Sphere of Resistance is much, MUCH worse than Trinisphere.  Restricting Trinisphere has the impact we want, and restricting Workshop does not.

[Toad]

Restricting Trinisphere has the impact we want

Like allowing Combo to dominate T1 ?

[Hi-Val]

I think it's important that we get back to the subject at hand here. We need something that holds combo back, since Control cannot do that as well as it used to. Stax usually takes this position. Do we want to slaughter Stax or tone it down? What's the role that the DCI should take here? At what point do we nuke it instead of prune it? How do we prune it?

[dicemanx]

Like allowing Combo to dominate T1 ?

Yeah, because combo was oh so dominant before Trinisphere was around.

I think there are plenty of tools available to both Workshop and non-Workshop decks to control the fast combo decks. Maybe CotV will return again - it was probably the superior control card anyways. Sphere of Resistance might be much weaker than Trinisphere, but it can still hinder combo to the extent where it buys you time to draw into your other control pieces like Tangle Wire and Smokestack. I also wouldn't count out control in the control vs combo match up. Control decks have access to some pretty strong tools, including CotV, Null Rod, and Arcane Lab.

I'd say restrict Trini, and if it turns out that combo is too dominant (which I highly, highly doubt), we have the opportunity to correct the mistake and either bring Trini back (not likely), or restrict certain combo pieces - perhaps even just finally ban Tendrils itself if we want to keep Ritual around.

[Machinus]

Restricting 3sphere is a better idea than it sounds, no matter what side of this debate you are on.

1) There will still be one of them in every workshop deck! This is really good. The deck is already inconsistent, and while dicemanx is right that combo wasn't rampant before, we don't want to let it go too far. One trinisphere per workshop deck is just fine with me.

2) The slots that open up will be replaced by more specific, less "swingy" artifacts such as SoR and CotV, both of which are excellent at what they do. SoR still murders combo, and CotV can have the same effect on aggro and control. There won't be a single card to fight all three of those, but perhaps that is why we are having this debate in the first place. (Although Chalice is a really versatile card, I think it is really good and is definitely going to replace some of the slots in STAX if we see 3sphere go).

3) Workshop and Crucible both stay. These cards don't deserve to be restricted.

[Toad]

I played Stax on sunday in a tournament and only managed to resolve a first turn Trinisphere once during the entiere tournament. My opponents were all using a really interesting card called "Force of Will".

5 players were running Workshop Aggro variants (5/3 and stuff). They all got hated out. And by hated out, I mean their opponents were using the proper cards to beat them. Like, not Energy Flux. Paying 2 manas a turn to keep a Juggernaut alive is not a big deal. Energy Flux is terrible. TERRIBLE. You are all complaining about Trinisphere but who runs 4 Rack and Ruin at the moment? ALL the french players with access to Red did that there in Paris. Who maindecks artifact removal?

Do you see Workshop decks dominating in Italy, Netherlands, Germany or France? No. Even if Germany is probably the place where you can find the most Workshops in the world. If you look at all the last European tournaments, you'll almost always see more Dark Rituals, more Intuitions, more Force of Will, more Mana Drains and more Brainstorms than Mishra's Workshop. Please, just start metagaming before restricting cards.

[Akuma]

I couldn't agree more with you Toad.

[Toad]

Just to add one random thought.

Let's suppose two things :

1. Stax is a dominating deck.
2. Trinisphere is the card every one hates.

Fundamental question :
Name me ONE non Combo deck that currently maindecks Trinisphere removal. I don't want two. Just one. One.

All Type 2 decks that run Green maindeck 4 Oxidize. All the decks that run Blue maindeck Annul. Mono Red has 4 Hearth Kami. Why don't Type 1 players do the same, especially since their card pool gives them access to far better cards (Artifact Mutation, Pulverize or Rack and Ruin) ?

Keeper has been playing Swords to Plowshares maindeck for ages. Heck, It even ran both Moat and The Abyss like a bit more than two years ago. People are used to maindecking creature removal and see nothing wrong in doing this. Why don't they do the same with artifact removal ?

[Machinus]

It isn't the same thing Oxidizing a Ravager as it is Rack and Ruining a Trinisphere. You can't play your moxes and by the time you hit 3 lands and cast it, the damage has already been done.

That aside, I think maindecking it is something we are going to have to do. Rack and Ruin is a really solid card that I expect to see a lot more of in the future.

[Toad]

It isn't the same thing Oxidizing a Ravager as it is Rack and Ruining a Trinisphere. You can't play your moxes and by the time you hit 3 lands and cast it, the damage has already been done

First turn Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, second turn Crucible of Worlds Strip Mine is a 4-cards Combo in a deck without tutors. It is basically equivalent with a second turn Smokestack. And you only can't play your Moxens if you are on the draw anyways. Two weeks ago, I was playtesting against Stax played by a friend of mine. I was on the draw and he went Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, with me having no Force of Will. Then turn 2 Crucible of Worlds, Wasteland. I won that game. Just because Island is an awesome card.

I actually fully agree with you went you say Oxidizing a Ravager isn't the same as Rack and Ruining a Trinisphere. Oxidizing a Ravager will just make an Ornithopter bigger, while Rack and Ruining the Trinisphere will win you the game. Modular is FAR more resiliant to targeted removal than Stax or Workshop Aggro.

I often ask T1 players why they don't maindeck artifact removal, and most of them are like "Hey well, I'm maindecking 4 Cunning Wish to get my Rack and Ruins!!". Whoa. Cunning Wish. Cunning Wish is terrible. I don't understand why Control decks are still using Cunning Wish to get removal. It's so slow you always lose the game before you can Wish for your answer then actually cast it. This is particulary relevant when facing Trinisphere and Juggernaut. I stopped counting the games I would have lost If my opponent had played Disenchant on my lock components instead of wasting billions of manas and turns to find their sideboarded solution.

That aside, I think maindecking it is something we are going to have to do. Rack and Ruin is a really solid card that I expect to see a lot more of in the future.

And there is actually nothing wrong at all in doing this. Control decks used to maindeck Fire/Ice to 2-for-1 against Sligh, right? Fire is strong, while Ice is a pretty bad cantrip. Your opponent will always have 2 artifacts to blow with Rack and Ruin. He's playing T1 too.

[dicemanx]

I often ask T1 players why they don't maindeck artifact removal, and most of them are like "Hey well, I'm maindecking 4 Cunning Wish to get my Rack and Ruins!!". Whoa. Cunning Wish. Cunning Wish is terrible.

That's fine until you start facing decks like Oath, Hulk/Keeper variants, and combo, and you start wishing that those RnRs were Cunning Wishes so that you could fetch REB/Skeletal Scrying/Vampiric or StP.

Nice analysis.

[Zherbus]

Versitility isn't being rewarded very well right now. Oh to play in the time when we had the luxery of being able to CAST Cunning Wish in some matches. You're going to take a chance whether you go for flexability and sacrifice speed or whether you go for speed and sacrifice versitility.

The fact of the matter is that I'd rather cast Disenchant a whole turn sooner against Trinisphere and have it be just a mox killer in a worse case scenerio. That's assuming that you run into decks that don't run Tinker on a regular basis.

[Raph Caron]

Dicemanx said :

Workshop decks hardly dominate as it is, so it will not be a dominance/distortion issue. So what *is* the issue?

The problem is that unrestricted Workshop allows too many broken starts. I define a broken start by the use of 3 or more manas on the first turn.

While broken starts are fun, if they're too frequent, they reduce the game's relevance as a strategy tester for the play aspect of Magic. Of course, deckbuilding and choosing the best archetype for an environment are important skills as well, but I believe playing skills should be rewarded as much as them.

[JACO]

It's a pretty good analogy.
"<card> is used in <archetype> and is too good on turn one, but rapidly becomes worse - it's weak on turn three, and almost useless on turn five. When playing with <card>, you really want to go first, so that you can get <card> into play before your opponent can drop all his fast mana."

Since both pairs can fit that paragraph, I'd say that sounds like a pretty good analogy. Of course there will always be some difference you can point out - that's why analogies work, they let you highlight the relevant differences (or lack thereof). They're really the same in many ways, including the one that matters most: the restriction of both falls under the same restriction-criterion, unrecoverable early-game swing.

Your analogy is flawed for the very reason that Klep pointed out, and the same one you ignored:

Everything used Black Vise, not just aggro.

Black Vise was broken in almost every deck at the time, even ones that didn't use it as part of the deck's strategy. Trinisphere is only used in Workshop decks' early game strategy. It doen't fit in every deck like Black Vise did, and unlike Black Vise, it can only be cast on the first turn with a Workshop, or some combination of 3 mana. Black Vise could always be cast first turn if it was in your hand, because all your lands produced 1 mana. The odds of having 3 mana + Trinisphere in your opening hand are laughable compared to having 1 mana + Black Vise in your opening hand. (If someone *Bram* can do these odds and PM me, that would be great).

I think it comes down to [this]:
To have a healthy environment (which, IMO, should be low on broken first turn plays), on average, how much mana should a deck have available on first turn? My personal answer is between 1 and 2.2 seems alright.

I stated in the past that I define a broken start by the use of 3 manas on the first turn. I believe that Workshop and Ritual make the decks that contain them have an average closer to 2-3.

Workshop decks hardly dominate as it is, so it will not be a dominance/distortion issue. So what *is* the issue?

The problem is that unrestricted Workshop allows too many broken starts. I define a broken start by the use of 3 or more manas on the first turn.

This definition of a broken start is yours, and yours alone, and for that reason I wouldn't base the crux of your arguments on that point. You can EASILY get 3 mana on turn 1 in the new 1.5 format, and that is not broken at all. I don't know about you, but I playtest TYPE 1 on a weekly basis. I've playtested (not goldfished) hundreds of games as, and against, the Workshop + Trinisphere decks. When a blue deck Force of Wills the Trinisphere, and then Wastelands the Workshop on their turn, the Workshop player is quite often screwed. These decks often keep a questionable hand because of a promising start, and if that start doesn't screw their opponent like they had hoped, then they can easily be screwed. This is the same thing that happens when the opposing player goes first, and plays land + mox and passes the turn to the Workshop player who has a dumb look on their face when they then play Workshop and cast Trinisphere on their turn.

Type 1 is a 'broken' format, and the goal of each and every good deck out there is to do something important early in the game, and force your opponent to be able to deal with it, or lose. This isn't just a product of Workshop + Trinisphere decks, it's the fundamental part of what makes Type 1 so much fun, and different than Type 2 and Draft. If you want a 'balanced' start to games where each player drops a land + Birds of Paradise on turn 1, then you're talking about the wrong format.

Restricting Trinisphere has the impact we want

Like allowing Combo to dominate T1 ?

Yeah, because combo was oh so dominant before Trinisphere was around.

Combo wasn't dominant before the introduction of Trinisphere, but that's also because it largely went ignore in North America until Smmenen started to make it a priority to show people how broken combo can be. The Italians have seen for quite some time, because they have dedicated combo players. If that same ratio of combo was players was higher in the US, where every mom and pop tournament reports its results, you would definitely understand where Toad is coming from when he says a Trinisphere-less environment would allow combo to be much, much stronger. The format is still largely undefined and unrefined.[/b] You might not believe this statement to be true now, but think back to only two years ago, and see the light-speed development that has taken place over that time. Combo will get better as more players devote time to developing it, and if Trinisphere is not in the environment, you'll be sorry.

Do you see Workshop decks dominating in Italy, Netherlands, Germany or France? No. Even if Germany is probably the place where you can find the most Workshops in the world. If you look at all the last European tournaments, you'll almost always see more Dark Rituals, more Intuitions, more Force of Will, more Mana Drains and more Brainstorms than Mishra's Workshop. Please, just start metagaming before restricting cards.

I swear to the heavens this is the best writing I've ever seen from Toad.* YOU ADJUST TO THE GAME, DO NOT MAKE THE GAME ADJUST TO YOU. Learn how to build your goddamn net-decks correctly. All of the good Psychatog players in Italy have switched to Red instead of Green, because they can use 3-4 Rack and Ruins. This is how you combat Workshop, and this is why those players consistently do well.

The best Magic diss of all time will not be 'your metagame sucks,' but rather, 'you suck at metagaming.'

*Side note: Cunning Wish is not terrible, however.

[Toad]

I often ask T1 players why they don't maindeck artifact removal, and most of them are like "Hey well, I'm maindecking 4 Cunning Wish to get my Rack and Ruins!!". Whoa. Cunning Wish. Cunning Wish is terrible.

That's fine until you start facing decks like Oath, Hulk/Keeper variants, and combo, and you start wishing that those RnRs were Cunning Wishes so that you could fetch REB/Skeletal Scrying/Vampiric or StP.

Nice analysis.

I've always hated drawing Swords to Plowshares against Hulk, Keeper variants and Combo. Just look at most of the T1 decks from a couple of monthes/years ago. EVERY single deck was maindecking non versatile cards. Landstill had Lightning Bolt, which are terrible against Combo and most Control decks. Dragon has Xantid Swarm, which is terrible against Aggro.

Your argument is quite a non-sense. You are not playing in an open field with 14654747 archetypes viable. You are playing in a defined metagame. Versatility is great in an open field. In a more focused metagame, you want silver bullets, maindeck solutions to what you are expecting. You want to maindeck something that deals with Trinisphere but are expecting a lot of Dragon, Control, Oath too? What about ... Disenchant? Or even Dismantling Blow or Orim's Thunder? These are excellent cards, and absolute maindeck material in the current metagame (artifacts and enchantments are being rampant, right?).

People has been maindecking creature removal for years. Years. People is used to doing this and sees nothing wrong in that. As in "Yeah, creatures have been used for ages, so creature control is fine". Now people don't use creatures. People use enchantments (Animate Dead or Oath of Druids) and artifacts to win. Just cut your creature control and switch to an other form of control ! No? That is just the basis of metagaming.

*Side note: Cunning Wish is not terrible, however.

I have obviously been exagerating when saying Cunning Wish was terrible. But seriously, in which matchups do you want to cast Cunning Wish? Against Combo? It's far too slow. Against Workshop Aggro by turn 3 when you are facing a Juggernaut under Trinisphere? Not the best plan. Against Stax when you are facing an active Smokestack? Pretty bad. There are a lot of matchups were Cunning Wish is bad. I think there are more matchup were Cunning Wish is bad than matchups were Rack and Ruin would be bad as a maindeck card. Especially since you run Brainstorms anyways. And I would vote for Dismantling Blow all day long.

Last sunday, round 2, my opponent has 3 lands on board and I have a Trinisphere, a Smokestack with 1 counter on it and a Tangle Wire on the board. I have no card in hand, and a lot of mana available. It's probably the last turn were my opponent will be able to do something relevant. Rack and Ruin would have won him the game with 90% certainty. Instead of that, he taps 2U and Cunning Wishes for it. He never had enough mana to cast It. Cunning Wish is good, but It has a terrible tempo, and loses to tempo cards like Trinisphere and such.

YOU ADJUST TO THE GAME, DO NOT MAKE THE GAME ADJUST TO YOU. Learn how to build your goddamn net-decks correctly. All of the good Psychatog players in Italy have switched to Red instead of Green, because they can use 3-4 Rack and Ruins. This is how you combat Workshop, and this is why those players consistently do well.

JACO's last argument is good. Just look at the Italian Top8's from 8 monthes ago (May or so, after Trinisphere was legal). You'll see Workshop Aggro (back then, Stacker variants) being rampant. Few players were winning with true Control decks. Now have a look at tue current Top8. What do you see? Togs. Combo decks. Mana Drains and Force of Wills. And if you compare the breakdowns, you'll see MORE Workshop Aggro / Prison decks than before. Why do these decks don't Top8 anymore? Because the Italians are better at metagaming than you.

Quick Comparison :

SCG Chicago sideboarded artifact hate
Rack and Ruin 15
Energy Flux 6
-- 21 anti Workshop cards.

SCG Richmond sideboarded artifact hate
Rack and Ruin 7
Energy Flux 12
Hurkyl's Recall 3
Disenchant 1
-- 23 anti Workshop cards.

Paris last tournament sideboarded artifact hate
Rack and Ruin 15
Hurkyl's Recall 4
Energy Flux 8
Naturalize 1
Oxidize 1
-- 29 anti Workshop cards.

Last Italian tournament recorded on Morphling.de (Viacenza) sideboarded artifact hate
Rack and Ruin 11
Naturalize 9
Woodripper 2
Energy Flux 2
Hurkyl's Recall 1
Oxidize 1
Pernicious Deed 2
Shattering Pulse 1
-- 29 anti Workshop cards.

22 average vs. 29 average on these two tournaments. NO Workshop Aggro in the European Top8s albeit a good percentage of the field running them according to the deck breakdowns. A lot in the 2 US Top8s. Metagaming?




You know what Workshop Trinisphere loses to when going second? Forest, Llanowar Elves.

[Raph Caron]

JACO wrote :

This definition of a broken start is yours, and yours alone, and for that reason I wouldn't base the crux of your arguments on that point.

So what? These are my perceptions. You have yours, I have mine. I’m trying to find the source of what I think is problematic in the format. This is what I came to. Since I couldn’t find another definition, I wrote one myself. Do you have a better one to submit?

You can EASILY get 3 mana on turn 1 in the new 1.5 format, and that is not broken at all.

Probably because it’s not Type 1. They let some acceleration in that format but removed most of the cards that were problematic with it.

I don't know about you, but I playtest TYPE 1 on a weekly basis. I've playtested (not goldfished) hundreds of games as, and against, the Workshop + Trinisphere decks. When a blue deck Force of Wills the Trinisphere, and then Wastelands the Workshop on their turn, the Workshop player is quite often screwed.

I totally agree with you. But what happens if you don’t run Force of Will?

These decks often keep a questionable hand because of a promising start, and if that start doesn't screw their opponent like they had hoped, then they can easily be screwed. This is the same thing that happens when the opposing player goes first, and plays land + mox and passes the turn to the Workshop player who has a dumb look on their face when they then play Workshop and cast Trinisphere on their turn.

If the deck is that bad, why do people still play it in tournaments? Because it can beat combo? Or is it because of the random wins?

Type 1 is a 'broken' format, and the goal of each and every good deck out there is to do something important early in the game, and force your opponent to be able to deal with it, or lose. This isn't just a product of Workshop + Trinisphere decks, it's the fundamental part of what makes Type 1 so much fun, and different than Type 2 and Draft. If you want a 'balanced' start to games where each player drops a land + Birds of Paradise on turn 1, then you're talking about the wrong format.

I can appreciate the format’s brokeness – that’s why it’s my favorite format – but I think it has gone over the limits of acceptability. Basically, we differ of opinion because I favor playskill over brokeness. You probably do too, but not at the same level.

IWantToPlaySacredMesaButTheFo rmatIsTooFast wrote:

Haha! I’m not talking about Parfait specifically. I’ve been maindecking artifact removal for years.

[bebe]

Last weekend the other Parfait player (Ray-RaZOR) and I were play testing a few decks. One was Parfait and the other was U/r Phid. I asked Ray to maindeck three R+Rs, two Control Magic, two Shaman, one Crypt and two Bloodmoons in the Phid deck relegating Wastes and Stifles to the side and discarding Cunning Wish entirely. I then played the Phid against Parfait and beat it two times straight despite a few obviously useless cards. Against Workshop it is very strong as additional hate can be brought in. You need to metagame heavily today in both the selection of your deck and your main deck choices. Workshop is appearing more in Toronto these days so we need to build and choose decks that can beat it.

As for broken starts - I hate seeing first turn Trinis or Crucibles. This is quite different from playing an Ancestral - bad enough - or Library first turn. Even Tinker/Colossus is somewhat broken. But note that all these cards are restricted. Trini and Crucible are just as bad if not worse as an opening play. Suggesting that FoW is enough of a solution does not sit right with me. This implies that you must play decks with at least fifteen blue cards to have a viable deck today. Why does magic have five colors? How do we maintain balance this way?

I really respect Peter but I can live without Wishes main decked as against Oath and Hulk I will rely on sideboarding Chain of Vapor, Stps, Eon Hub or whatever as my deck allows. I'll take my chances first game.

[Milton]

You know what Workshop Trinisphere loses to when going second? Forest, Llanowar Elves.

What happens when Workshop Trinisphere goes first, using the above example?  No Llanowar Elves until turn three, assuming land drops each turn and assuming no Strip / Waste by Trinisphere player.

Nothing, right now, is consistantly more, well, consistant and broken and more damaging and less based on skill and more based on luck than a first turn Workshop.  Notice I said consistant.  Sure, a first turn Lotus or Ancestral is broken and based on luck, but those cards are restricted.  I don't worry about a first turn Lotus or Ancestral because their restriction makes them unlikely, so much so that preparing for them is unnesscary.  But a first turn Workshop is so consistant that it goes beyond just the "type I is broken, deal with it" argument.

Nine years ago you had to be prepared for a first turn Necro.  That was about as bad as it got back then.  Necro was restricted.  Six years ago the game was so slow that you didn't even care about the first few turns.  The game was different.  Three years ago you had to be afraid of a first turn Dryad with pitch spell back-up.  I can deal with a Dryad.  At least I get to try and play the game.  Two years ago you had to be afraid of a second or third turn Tog.  That's sucky, but I can at least mount a defense.

First turn Workshop / Trinisphere (if played right) allows the opponent no opportunity to mount a defense or even begin an offense, even more damaging than the first turn Necro in most respects.

The format becomes
-Well, play Force of Will if you don't like it and...
-Play your own wastelands if you don't like it and...
-Maindeck artifact removal if you don't like it and...when those arguments fail...
-This is Type I, broken things happen.  

That leaves us with a format where you play Workshop OR you play Force of Will AND Wastelands AND maindeck artifact removal AND just hope you can cast your artifact removal around your opponents Trinispheres and Wastelands and Stripmine and CotV.  Not healthy.

Or

You continue to claim that this is Type I, damnit, and broken things happen.  By the way, this is a horrible argument that could, to this day, be used to justify unrestricting Necro and Ancestral and Lotus.

A restricted Workshop makes the first turn Trinisphere a three card combo mostly (Ancient Tomb / Mox) and a two card combo sometimes (if you can draw your first turn Workshop).  That's consistant with the brokenness that is acceptable in Type I, in my opinion.

[Toad]

I wanted to have fun today afternoon and I took Weissman's Keeper build from 1996 slighty modified to fit in 4 Force of Will (I didnt even bother to retool the mana base to add fetchlands), and played It a couple of games against Workshop Aggro. 1996 Keeper butchers Workshop Aggro. You know why? 8 basic land and 4 Disenchant.

That leaves us with a format where you play Workshop OR you play Force of Will AND Wastelands AND maindeck artifact removal AND just hope you can cast your artifact removal around your opponents Trinispheres and Wastelands and Stripmine and CotV. Not healthy.

That is blattantly wrong. Decks like Dragon have a good matchup against Stax and neither runs Wastelands, nor maindeck artifact removal. Drain Slaver too and runs no Wastelands. Red/Green with 4 maindeck Elvish Spirit Guide and some Naturalize / Artifact Mutation maindeck has a good matchup against Stax. Yeah. Red/Green.

No one actually answered my fundamental question :

Why is maindecking creature removal acceptable for Type 1 and maindecking artifact removal totally unacceptable?

[Milton]

Why is maindecking creature removal acceptable for Type 1 and maindecking artifact removal totally unacceptable?

I guess I'm looking at it in a different way.  You can maindeck all the artifact removal you want, but if you can't cast it...

I could have a transformational sideboard that brings in 4 Rack and Ruin, 4 Pulverize, but if my opponent has a turn 1 Trinisphere, I can't do jack.

Don't get me wrong here, I think you have a fair argument.  The metagame can have a wierd way of fixing things like this, but I'm just too convinced that it is broken beyond what is acceptable in Type I.

[JACO]

This definition of a broken start is yours, and yours alone, and for that reason I wouldn't base the crux of your arguments on that point.

So what? These are my perceptions. You have yours, I have mine. I’m trying to find the source of what I think is problematic in the format. This is what I came to. Since I couldn’t find another definition, I wrote one myself. Do you have a better one to submit?

I don't think the format is problematic, nor do I think Workshop decks are problematic, so I don't see a need for defining a definition of what is too broken of a start in the format that is all about brokeness. Bram said it best, 'Our format is bah-roken, but it's not broken.

I don't know about you, but I playtest TYPE 1 on a weekly basis. I've playtested (not goldfished) hundreds of games as, and against, the Workshop + Trinisphere decks. When a blue deck Force of Wills the Trinisphere, and then Wastelands the Workshop on their turn, the Workshop player is quite often screwed.

I totally agree with you. But what happens if you don’t run Force of Will?

Then you need to have something else bah-roken or good in your deck. A first turn Trinisphere isn't going to win the game itself, except maybe against Charbelcher. It needs to have additional juice/pressure surrounding it, and becomes much better IF your opponent can follow it up with additional mana sources and pump out threats to your board, such as Smokestack. If you aren't playing Workshop, and you aren't playing Force of Will, then you need to be playing a deck that does something else broken if you wish to be competitive in Type 1.

These decks often keep a questionable hand because of a promising start, and if that start doesn't screw their opponent like they had hoped, then they can easily be screwed. This is the same thing that happens when the opposing player goes first, and plays land + mox and passes the turn to the Workshop player who has a dumb look on their face when they then play Workshop and cast Trinisphere on their turn.

If the deck is that bad, why do people still play it in tournaments? Because it can beat combo? Or is it because of the random wins?

I'm not saying the deck is bad at all, I'm merely stating that these decks are not unbeatable, nor are they overly problematic if people would adjust to them. As Toad pointed out, a card like Dismantling Blow, Orim's Thunder, or even Disenchant will never be a dead card in your deck. Every deck runs artifacts and/or enchantments.

IWantToPlaySacredMesaButTheFo rmatIsTooFast wrote:

Haha! I’m not talking about Parfait specifically. I’ve been maindecking artifact removal for years.

I know, I just couldn't resist; )

Why is maindecking creature removal acceptable for Type 1 and maindecking artifact removal totally unacceptable?

Everybody is probably going to cite the fact that it's 'dead against combo,' 'weak against control,' or some other such nonsense, but in fact, a Disenchant would almost never be dead against any deck. At the very least it can take out a random Mox, and against decks like Oath or Stax, it can be much more debilitating, and can often swing the tempo back into your favor.

EDIT:

The format becomes
-Well, play Force of Will if you don't like it and...
-Play your own wastelands if you don't like it and...
-Maindeck artifact removal if you don't like it and
-This is Type I, broken things happen.

That leaves us with a format where you play Workshop OR you play Force of Will AND Wastelands AND maindeck artifact removal AND just hope you can cast your artifact removal around your opponents Trinispheres and Wastelands and Stripmine and CotV.
Or
You continue to claim that this is Type I, damnit, and broken things happen.

No, the format becomes 'ADJUST YOUR DECK OR LOSE.' It's quite simple. Too many people are falling into the trap that Type 2 and Extended players have, and that is bitching about the DCI, and relying on them to bail you out by restricting or banning x, y, or z, simply because you haven't metagamed properly. Magic has always been a game of luck, to a certain extent, and this won't change. Why is it that the Italian Tog players keep winning in the face of Workshops? Because they metagamed their decks. And they aren't even running Wasteland!

[Smmenen]

Also, go back and look how good Workshop was before Trinisphere was printed.  In the first 4 months of 2004 and the final months of 2003, no one played Workshops except to play Slavery.  Trinisphere definately has not proven that it needs to be restricted.  If anything, it has made Workshops viable, as opposed to tier two, or worse.

[MuzzonoAmi]

And they aren't even running Wasteland!

This is quite possibly the best argument made in this whole thread, and something everyone bitching about Trinisphere and (especially) Workshop should read. The Italians are hating out Shops WITHOUT Wasteland - which is admittedly one of the best cards for fighting Workshop and Workshop/Trinisphere in particular. Also - the fact that people are still maindecking creature kill without maindecking artifact kill is absurd. Especially when the artifact kill also kills lots and lots of creatures (Disenchant for example, kills Dragons, Oaths, any artifact dude, and any lock piece).

[Smmenen]

Well, to be fair, this isn't entire true.  Here is the Turin results - 142 players, and Workshop deck were 50% of the top 8:
http://www.theabyss.biz/2004/infotornei/infotorino11.htm\\

But I did count 20 Workshop decks.

[Raph Caron]

This definition of a broken start is yours, and yours alone, and for that reason I wouldn't base the crux of your arguments on that point.

So what? These are my perceptions. You have yours, I have mine. I’m trying to find the source of what I think is problematic in the format. This is what I came to. Since I couldn’t find another definition, I wrote one myself. Do you have a better one to submit?

I don't think the format is problematic, nor do I think Workshop decks are problematic, so I don't see a need for defining a definition of what is too broken of a start in the format that is all about brokeness. Bram said it best, 'Our format is bah-roken, but it's not broken.

I don’t get it. There has to be a threshold for first turn brokeness, or else you would be willing to play Type 0.

I don't know about you, but I playtest TYPE 1 on a weekly basis. I've playtested (not goldfished) hundreds of games as, and against, the Workshop + Trinisphere decks. When a blue deck Force of Wills the Trinisphere, and then Wastelands the Workshop on their turn, the Workshop player is quite often screwed.

I totally agree with you. But what happens if you don’t run Force of Will?

Then you need to have something else bah-roken or good in your deck. A first turn Trinisphere isn't going to win the game itself, except maybe against Charbelcher. It needs to have additional juice/pressure surrounding it, and becomes much better IF your opponent can follow it up with additional mana sources and pump out threats to your board, such as Smokestack. If you aren't playing Workshop, and you aren't playing Force of Will, then you need to be playing a deck that does something else broken if you wish to be competitive in Type 1.

That’s exactly what I regret. Since Workshop and Ritual are unrestricted, you’re forced to play them or Force of Will to stand a chance. It’s all about “being explosive”. I don’t have anything about “explosiveness”, but not on first turn consistently!

These decks often keep a questionable hand because of a promising start, and if that start doesn't screw their opponent like they had hoped, then they can easily be screwed. This is the same thing that happens when the opposing player goes first, and plays land + mox and passes the turn to the Workshop player who has a dumb look on their face when they then play Workshop and cast Trinisphere on their turn.

If the deck is that bad, why do people still play it in tournaments? Because it can beat combo? Or is it because of the random wins?

I'm not saying the deck is bad at all, I'm merely stating that these decks are not unbeatable, nor are they overly problematic if people would adjust to them. As Toad pointed out, a card like Dismantling Blow, Orim's Thunder, or even Disenchant will never be a dead card in your deck. Every deck runs artifacts and/or enchantments.

I know it’s not unbeatable. I know it's easy to metagame vs. What I mean is that Workshop decks remind me of Channel/Fireball decks of yesterday, when Channel was unrestricted. There are like 1000 ways to beat that deck easily : Lightning Bolt, Force of Will, even lifegain works. But even if you have those answers in hand, you still lose if you can’t take a turn (FoW is the exception), thanks to mana acceleration. Now, Channel was restricted for that reason, I assume : it’s ok once in a while, but you don’t want this to happen consistently.

No, the format becomes 'ADJUST YOUR DECK OR LOSE.' It's quite simple.

It always been like that, nothing new to me.

Too many people are falling into the trap that Type 2 and Extended players have, and that is bitching about the DCI, and relying on them to bail you out by restricting or banning x, y, or z, simply because you haven't metagamed properly.

We share the same opinion.

[Vegeta2711]

Maindecking artifact removal is only useful if you have a real chance to use it. Do I think it's a good idea to do it? In many meta's yes, it's completely worth it, the lack of it simply shows people don't understand the concept of metagaming. The problem is, it doesn't help if you have no chance to cast if before falling into a unwinnable position.

Basically any sort of 3Sphere opening, unless FoW'd, still screws you until at least turn 3. So you waste the shop, good for you, it does stall them a bit, but unless they kept a lousy mana hand, they still have the advantage. Of course it sets you back a turn as well. It also tends to make you very dead if you don't have a strip or if they have a 2nd good land (2nd MWS or Tomb/City followup). Now I'm -not- saying that they'll always win despite wasteland or that it's a bad card to have against them. But I find it's usually not as simple as just going 'wasteland yer shop, I win'.

The simple fact is the best defense to a turn 1 3Sphere is just winning the die roll.