[Discussion] Building a Better Hate Deck, or RG Tempo

[Revvik]

Well, one general rule of thumb (after seeing Boondock Saints I chuckle every time I say or hear "rule of thumb") is to not dilute your threats for Rancor, so dropping Elites for Rancors is probably not the direction you want to go.

4 Pyrostatic Pillar?  Not even in comboland is that entirely necessary.  Root Maze should do enough of a job game one, so perhaps relegating Pillar to the side to make room for 2 additional beaters (like the two Skyshroud Elite) and 2 Rancor (if your creature base is dense enough) would be a good idea to try.

[Freelancer]

The pillars have been rather good for me in testing though, against control it means that every thread they counter means 2 more damage wich add's up quite fast (similar to the anks only pillar's are amazing against combo)...Also I've had times that they couldn't even cast will anymore because they where at 4 life...

That said I really want to trie out rancors (haven't tested much with these actually) so i'll go -4x pillar +4x rancor and see what happens...(I play 20 critters main so I should be fine)

[NicolaeAlmighty]

I definitely agree that Pillar is not a md choice. I'll do a little playtesting with it, but it's best saved for a SB card. Absolutely blows against Workshop Aggro...

[Freelancer]

True it blows against workshop aggro but than again you gain after boarding 4x artifact mutation and maybe some naturalizes (you should be running those main/side) wich would probably mean you have a decent to good game against them negating the use off pillars main...Besides if pillars improves 2/3 matchups (control slaver/combo decks) and makes 1 matchup worse (workshop aggro) I can live with that...


These are just idea's i'm trowing out there though...

[PeAcH]

My metagame is really heavy on Stacks and MUD (-Domination), then Cotrol Slaver and Oath and few UW-Lanstill and fish. But there is also a lot of random aggro.
I would try the following :

4 Root maze
4 Null Rod
2 Naturalice

Maybe 3 rod 3 naturalice. But I´m not really sure about it.

Also, the sideboard would be:

2 Naturalice (or 1 rod and 1 naturalice)
4 Pyroblast
4 Pirostatic Pillar
4 Rack and ruin

 I totally agree on Treetops, but maybe I would prefer to stay away of rancors. 20 critters + 4 treetop seems enough beats for me.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

I've found myself pondering this today as I was playtesting... What do we have Null Rod for? Slaver? I run three sideboard, but find them collecting more and more dust. I've also found that the Slaver matchup isn't that bad to begin with... Well, depends on the build. Null Rod helps against that pesky Engineered Explosives build... but the version I'm playing against actually sides out the Slaver against me... Bizarre, eh?

Rancor is a must! Makes games go MUCH faster! Makes any creature you control a threat that MUST BE DEALT WITH! Don't deny yourself this amazing spell... Seriously. This deck absolutely needs it... Well, maybe not, but it is damn friggin sweet.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Why run null rod main?  What decks is it good against that root maze isn't already better?

I still keep rod in the board to help vs TPS.  They still have some control in there, and if I run 11 anti-combo cards its hard to keep all of them away.  It works against slaver as well, although more burn helps to kill welders in that matchup, which is key to their strategy.

[Nastaboi]

xrobx: Meddling Mage doesn't even really stop burn spells.  So long as three different types of direct damage are present (Lavamancer, Bolt, and a third of your preference) the Mage can always be burnt out in response to his own ability.

Just to make it sure: Meddling Mage says "AS this comes into play", so its ability doesn't use stack thus cannot be responded.

I always thought that the key to Control Slaver's strategy against this kind of decks is to resolve an early Tinker.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Very true... So the greatest defense this deck can have besides a formidable offense is the Blasts. So what reason do we have to keep Null Rod?

[Freelancer]

Don't forget that artifact mutations are also very good against tinker, even if they search for colossus you still get 11 tokens to race it with...(wich shouldn't be TO hard)
If they search for anything else mutate it and thank them for the tokens...^^   (they generally don't have the time to search for bus AND have 5 mana open to make 5 tokens (killing the bus, and fizzling the mutation))

[PeAcH]

So u would agree on
4 root maze
4 Artifact mutation
2 Naturalice

And the same side consisting in:

2 Naturalice
4 Pyroblast
4 Pirostatic Pillar
4 Rack and ruin

Really overkill agains $T4CkZ no?
Maybe some solution for aggro matchups in the side don´t u think?

[Freelancer]

You probably won't need the rack and ruins to handle artifact.dec since you already have the lovely artifact mutations (they are god, bow to them) to handle artifact.dec (combine that with naturalize and you should be fine) so these can be swapt for some aggro (non-workshop aggro!?) hate...but do we need this? and if so what to add?

As a side note; how is our oath.dec matchup?

[[supa_t(im)]]

Oath is winable, but challenging.

This is where MD naturalize shine, since they can be used against any deck b/c of artifacts, and can still take out oaths.

Root maze helps a lot b/c it slows them down, which is exactly what you need to do.  Sometimes Oath just wins, but a lot of the time you can stall them and overun them with your own beats + rancored orchard tokens.

Not a great matchup, but definitely winable.

As for the SB, it seems the thread has gone back and forth on whether to put in REB/Pyroblast or not.  They have never left my SB, but I'm obstinate.  I think they are useful to force key spells through, and to kill random togs.

Also, I still think rod is deserving of a three slot in the SB.  With Meandeck tendrils making people think more and more on combo decks I think its going to regain its usefullness.  Meandeck tendrils ran 19 artifact acceleration/fixing (I think Jacob ran more).  Null rod would completely kill that.  Slaver is the deck to beat right now and null rod shuts it down.  I just think its too useful not to use.

[SgW]

So my version of this deck is :

// Lands
    4  Forest
    4  Mountain
    1  Strip Mine
    2  Taiga
    1  Treetop Village
    4  Wasteland
    4  Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
    4  Elvish Spirit Guide
    4  Gorilla Shaman (2)
    4  Grim Lavamancer
    4  Kird Ape
    4  River Boa
    2  Viridian Zealot

// Spells
    4  Lightning Bolt
    3  Naturalize
    3  Null Rod
    4  Rancor
    3  Incinerate
    2  Hull Breach

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Root Maze
SB: 3  Artifact Mutation
SB: 3  Blood Moon
SB: 4  Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3  Red Elemental Blast

I add 2 Hull Breach that can fit well versus Oath and Slaver, Stacks, Dr4gon... destroy 1 enchantment or 1 artefact or 1 enchantment and 1 artefact... usefull
I add 2 Viridian Zealot, a 2/1 who can act like a naturalize

Only 2 Taïga, Wasteland are too played, and only 1 Treetop Village... thinking to add one other

[MCS]

Results with my decklist: tournament won, flawless victory.

As said, agressiveness is the key, this is why I would always stick to esg and lots of small beaters. Root maze was realy great, ankh was also good, sb was also good.

[Revvik]

Hull Breach may look like a good card, but I still think the sorcery speed of it is a big disadvantage.  I'd like to know how it handles in all of your matchups, but I think it is pretty useless against artifact decks, who will be able to lock you out before you can actually cast stuff.

Remember, instant speed means "I can play around Mana Drain."

SgW: Null Rod main does not help very many matchups.  Against Stax, it is merely a permanent to sac to the Smokestack.  Combo players have already learned to play around it thanks to Fish.
Also, how has Viridian Zealot been for you?  It seems to be a little too mana intensive, but it is combined beats & utility.  It just seems like a horrible card in most matchups, but I'm open to comments.

[DJ_DDP]

This is my Current deck, which i havent lost with jet, but i havent played at a tournement, only on Magic Workstation, but mayby people cant play on workstation.
I am from Denmark and i do not own Power and we dont have proxie tournements, but i have 2 top 8 with Full Powered Oath, that i borrowed from a friend.

Mana
1 Lotus Petal
5 Forest
5 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Beasts
4 Troll Ascetic
4 River Boa
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dwarven Blastminer
4 Gorilla Shaman

The Fun Stuff
4 Root Maze
4 Naturalize
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice

SB
3 Ground Seal
4 Artifact Mutation
4 Rack and Ruin
4 Pyrostatic Pillar

This deck have ok matchup against the whole field, but it dont like FCG or Oath, but the Root Maze Main helps against Combo and Workshop and the lock with Root Maze and Dwarven Blastminer, just wins sometimes, it is good against Crucible of Worlds


DJ_DDP
Martin

[xrobx]

For christs sake, please end this thread mods?

The same stuff is being said over and over and it seems no one is reading the whole discussion anyhow, just randomly posting their thoughts.

Null rod isn't good in this deck; I've been saying this from the beginning!  My sb had 3 slots of them and they're rarely used.  The obvious and definite sb choices HAVE TO BE:

4x pyro pillar
4x art. mutation
4x naturalize
3x open

Open is dependant on your meta obviously.  The key points that need addressing are:

-from your playtesting people, what is this decks worst matchup?
-how can the sb slots be opened up to address that matchup? (there is room for 3, no questions)

Have many people playtested against madness?  I have not, but feel this matchup would be slightly difficult.  Oath is a race, sure.  Heavy metagame oath can easily be sb'd against.

Control is also sometimes a hard matchup; 4c control mainly.  They have balance, plow, and as soon as gay old life gainer pops his head out, it's pretty much game over.  We can look at ways to beat this, possibly sb'ing something like fire/ice could also prove decent, although how would it help your hard matchups?  I'd say it is better against control slaver than null rod is.

New cards are needed in this discussion to deal with:

-hard aggro matchups
-4cc and slaver (we want these both to be favorable after sideboard, currently they are not)

[[supa_t(im)]]

I feel like I am repeating myself.

xrobx, in order to improve on aggro, slaver, and 4cC I have found the answer to be to MD 8 burn spells and 4 Naturalize.  I know it sounds excessive, but it works.  20 creatures is enough to put pressure on control, 8 burn is enough to keep other aggro at bay and more reliably kill angels, and naturalize + root maze means it makes it harder for them to use slaver without me blowing it up (more burn also means less welders).

What are your thoughts on 4 REB in the board.  I think you talked earlier about how you didn't like them anymore.

[Freelancer]

UG madness is a slightly unfavorable matchup, you need to keep there madness outlets out off play with burn but at the same time they have counters for your burn and there creatures are bigger. Also the hate cards like pillar, root maze, naturalize are not as great in this matchup. That said you still have a decent chance against them but you shouldnt worry to much UG madness isn't played a lot.

Bazaar madness is even more off a pain for your, since they have a better draw engine non burnable discard outlets and all off there creatures are bigger than yours. Also if they find wonder your in for some trouble. This matchup is generally NOT in your favor, but than again bazaar madness isn't played a lot because you need full power and bazaars to play it.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Control Slaver for this deck is a breeze. I met up with the gaming group last night and wiped the floor with Slaver. All they can do is hope to Tinker out a Bus/ Trike... Trike slows me down, but doesn't win the game. Welders and Trike may be able to do it, but with the amount of burn/ Mancers the Welders stayed off the table.

Bazaar Madness is a tough fight. I won the match, but if he got the nuts enough draw there wasnt much that could be done. Arrogant is... irritating. Wonder is usually game over or close to it.

Keeping in mind this deck is a minority, like Madness and even Sui, we can't actively compare how it would do against other minorities... Sure, it's nice to have an idea, but the odds of me going to a tourney and playing another RG Beats/ Madness deck are incredibly bad. Hard aggro doesn't exist except in spots in the meta.

[Freelancer]

About the sideboard:

I doubt you will have those exact 13 cards in your deck because you are generally maindecking atleast some 2/3 copies off naturalize/artifact mutation (depending on meta) wich gives us another 5/6 slots to toy around with in the sideboard.
I think we won't be able to improve the oath matchup much more, the control slaver matchup is already covered so is the combo matchup (8 hate cards 'should' be enough) control is more or less covered (if you have 8 burn and pillar/blast side you should be fine) and aggro is almost non-existend in today's metagame...Most decks however still run a reasonble amount off non-basics (dragon also seems to make a comeback) so maybe we should devote 3 slots for blood moon in the sideboard? it's also decent against bazaar madness...
Against control multani's presence might be some good...(probably only good against mono-U, deserves some testing though)

Recently I've cutted all off the treetop villages because they mess with my curve to much (plenty off 1/2 mana spells) this was done after a bunch off playtesting. In theory it sounds great but in practice it's often sub optimal...What do you think?
(I have btw 16 1 mana spells namingly: 2x elite, 4x grim, 4x sex monkey, 4x root maze not counting the bolt's even)
Also a treetop without another mana source is often a mulligan (unless...) since it costs you a turn AND it cuts off half off your colours...

[Adarin]

I'm actually testing a list with 4 blood moon and 4 root maze in MD and it has worked well for me. Blood moon hurts almost every deck somehow and with birds/esg you can have 2nd turn maze+bmoon or 1st turn maze + 2nd/3rd turn bmoon. The downside of MDing blood moons is that I don't have enough space for burn and thus makes my aggro and welder games harder, but as it has been said, aggro is pretty random nowadays and workshop matches are still favored to rg. Here is the SB I'm currenlty using:

4x REB
4x Pillar
1x Naturalize
2x Fire/Ice
4x Artifact Mutation

-Adarin

[[supa_t(im)]]

I thought we went over why Blood Moon isn't good anymore like 10-15 pages ago.  Too many basics running around, and the 3cc is very prohibitive.  Root maze basically does what blood moon does.

Null rod seems to be sucky right now as well.  I was thinking of ground seal in the 3 spot.  But I'm not sure if it will help. Its more defense against Dragon, but we already have naturalize and root maze.  Its good against Welder decks, but we have burn and artifact mutation.  So I don't know if its needed.  The only reason I'm reluctant to remove rod from the SB is because of TPS.  They have duress and FoW, and can play around maze and pillar.  With rod it adds 3 more hate cards that you can slip through and force them to try to play around more hate.

@Freelancer
How did you come to the conclusion that Village ruins the manacurve?  Personally I don't run them and go a more controllish route, but what testing have you done to make them seem bad?

I think this discussion will continue to wind down until we have solid consitent tournament showings.  I don't think there is much more we can talk about.  I bet if you go back through the thread you'll find most things (if not everything) covered.

[Freelancer]

Essentially after about 15 games off testing against a number off opponents (there decks kinda sucked but that is mood) I had numerous times that either: I had a treetop in hand, but it slowed me down to much or I had a treetop in hand and no 1 drop (very unlikely) and it got wasted or I had a bunch off 1 mana spells and pyrostatic pillar in hand in that matchup I needed to play the pillar and the treetop slowed me down again for 1 turn. Essentially every time I drew the treetop I wasn't to happy with it and always wanted ANY other land as long as it produced r/g and didn't come into play tapped...Usually cipt is used in decks that have a mana curve that starts at 2 mana (fish for instance) and play the cipt lands turn 1 so they dont suffer the drawback to much...Here we have a mana curve that starts at 1 and curves out at 2 (!) so yeah it messes with the curve because you always have to choose between either: 1) cast small critter or 2) cast treetop or 3) wait untill turn 2 to cast treetop and drop 2 1 mana threads than 3de turn drop the 2 mana thread or 4) wait untill the game progresses and cast treetop than...I don't think the treetop's advantages are enough to warrant the early game tempo loss and the mess it makes out off your mana curve...


About the bloodmoon thing; I really don't have anything else to put in the sideboard that has a general use against a lot off matchups...Any idea's? (yes readding rack and ruin is possible, but I really don't need it...

[SgW]

Against Oath : Ensnaring Bridge
Against MWS : Ankh of Mishra

[Tobi]

Back in mid 2004 when I played RG in tournaments I experienced the same problems with Treetop Village, but found it too powerful not to run. My solution was to cut the Treetops down to 3, which was a good number.

As for the sideboard, in today's meta, I would always run 2-3 Tormod's Crypt, which are powerful against a lot of decks and don't mess with your gameplan (means, don't take a turn to cast in which you cannot do anything else, like Blood Moon would).

[xrobx]

I agree with tim; everything has been said that needs to be said.

We still haven't addressed the decks hardest matchups, as no one has ideas for a sb.  I have some super sick secret tech though for slaver I don't wanna leak it so much, but message me if you want to know.

My sb remains with 3 spots open.

Go play tournies, bring back results. I plan to very soon.

[MCS]

Theoreticaly, we have a good contender for T1 tourney's.

In praxis, we have a deck that looses to oath and to combo most of the times, usualy have 0 chances pre-sb and slight chances post sb. On the other hand, it does very well with any form of slaver/workshop and/or control decks due to it's speed and disruption.

Root maze solved at least some og my problems of fighting tendril's based combo. Null rod does it's job also fine since it shuts down all the moxes and other artifact mana producers, and usualy I found it as a very good tool to fight combo matchups (it definetly isn't bad or underpowered as people sugested).

Oath is still a problem. I've tryed many things: I tryed playing md naturalizes, but found them sub-optimal. A 2cc spell that only kills an artifact is bad for such an agressive deck. I've tried crop rotation main with maze of ith sb, but they are still not enough, since he usualy summons his beast, and then I manage to stop one from beating me, but the others just kills me. Most of my victory was due to their inexperience, since many oath players sided platinum angel against me, and I was more than happy to kill him with burn.

Ankh helps a little bit more, since it can do some damage, and sometimes you can outrace him. But the most usefull tool against oath was root maze and wastelands. They usualy stopped my opponent from developing a fast board position, and when he was finaly able to summon something, my critters would usualy kill him.

[Zherbus]

This thread became unwieldy about 8 pages ago. The discussion seems to be productive, but I would like this conversation to be spun off on a newer, more relevant and easy to navigate thread.